Forum Replies Created
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To the moderator
I totally agree with you. It’s not the place for us Monday Morning quarterbacks to think that we can decide what has to be done. All we can do is Daven to Hashem for a speedy positive resolution. Moreover, by working to improve ourselves, we demonstrate to Hashem that we are worth being saved.
To Menachem Shmei
What difference does that make? And let’s assume that I’m getting material for Dr. Berger’s next book So what? Attack me on the facts bit you can’t because you know that Chabad teaches itsinions that the Rebbe.runs the world.To Menachem Shmei
I’ve told the group that I daven in a Chabad shul during the week. And yes I pick up a lot of material there. And every word of it is true.To Menachem Shmei
If I didn’t explain this in my earlier posts I’ll explain it now. During the week I attend a Shul whose Rabbis are all Chabad. The congregants are Russian Jews who follow Chabad practices since that’s tje only Judaism they’ve ever experienced. On Shabbos I go to a Litvish shul but it’s a rather long walk. The Rabbis know that I’m against Chabad theology but I keep my mouth shut because we have a marriage of co venience. I daven each day for the Amud and I have a shul that’s near to where I live. Tbe Rabbis are brothers and they’re lovely so we get along. It’s as simple as that. Of course I take advantage of the opportunities to personally witness Chabad kefirah and I then share it with tje group. Please feel free tl ask me any question
you’d like. editedTo Always
I’m not disagreeing with you, but I think you’re confusing issues. When the Torah told us the three things that Yaakov did, it was to teach us how to prepare when we have to deal with Eisav and, of course, his descendants. Neither you nor I are on the front lines, so our responsibility is different. We have to focus on self-improvement and assisting others so that Hashem becomes more favorably inclined to us. Edited but let me share the following. This year, I was in a Sukkah on the first night of the Yom Tov and one fellow said to his friend, “Everything we have in our lives comes from the Rebbe.” The other responded, “Of course. We live in the shadow of the Rebbe.” It’s time for all Jews, even Chabad, to wake up and recognize that our only hope is through Hashem.
To always
We’re in agreement. We have to do whatever we can to give Nachas to Hashem. This is a very dangerous time. Yes we know that ultimately Hashem will send Moshiach but who knows what terrible things we’ll have to face before his arrival. I alpreciate our exchanges because you clearly have ypur head on straight.
To Always
By no means am I i mplying that I have a pipeline to Hashem. All I’m saying is that each and every one of us must think lo g and hard as to what he and she can do to ameliorate our relationship with Hashem. Personally, I’m saying Shir Hashirim every day as well as Tehilim 121, 130 and 142 after each Tefilah in addition to my learning. We are in serious danger and we all must do whatever we can.
To Lostspark
No I’m not. Please explain it to me. I really never heard pf it.
To Always
Let’s ask a more general question. Do you agree that when the Jewish people face tragedies such as the Holocaust and what’s unfolding now we must turn introspective and try to correct our errors? Or do agree with the Rebbe that every Jew is perfect and Moshiach will come tomorrow morning to save us?To Always
I can accept that we can’t definitively explain catastrophic events, but do you agree that they are caused by our sins or do you agree with the Rebbe that things just happen and there is no rhyme or reason?
To Avirra
Rabbi Steinzaltz was associated with Chabad so it’s obvious that he wouldn’t challenge the Rebbe’s shitah that all Jews are perfect and the world is ready for Moshiach.To ujm
That’s your opinion and as far as I’m concerned you have no credibility. I asked a simple question to the group, specifically the Lubavichers, “Did the Rebbe have a different view than the Friediker Rebbe vis a vis the Holocaust?” Based on what I’ve read and been told by Lubavichers the Rebbe held that the Holocaust couldn’t be explained while the Friedike Rebbe said it was a punishment from Shomoyim for the breakdown of Yiddishkeit in Europe. It’s not such a difficult question. But, as I’ve learned from the months I’ve spent on this site, Lubavichers rarely answer any question. So again, would someone please answer, rather than obfuscate the question.To Menachem Shmei
Unlike Dr. Berger I am not a scholar with regard to Chabad. What I know is experiential, based on what I read and pick up from interactions with Lubavichers. In 2009 I gave a speech about the Holocaust in a shul witb a Chabad Rabbi. He ordered me to stol saying tbat the Rebbe didn’t allow this subject to be discussed. The Rabbi then added that the Holocaust was one of those times when G-d didn’t know what He was doing like when Rabbi Akiva was being killed and the Malachim protested. As for the Friediker being a hardliner vis a vis the Holocsust this is found online. I’m not profrssing to be an expert on tje dubject but I’m reasonably certain that I’m correct. If not you have the chance to refute me.To Menachem Shmei
Why not make things easy for everyone. You’ve proven your expertise regarding Chabad lore. So elucidat the last two Rebbes’ opinions vis a vis the Holocaust. Did they agree it was a punishment? Or did they agree it wasn’t a punishment? Or did they disagree? Of course you won’t answer tbe question because you know the Rebbe didn’t agree with the Friediker. But tbe answer is simple. A Chosid can’t disagree with his Rebbe unless the Chosid is god clothed in human form.
To the Lubavichers
To my understanding(If I’m wrong correct me) the Rebbe believed that the Holocaust was a Gezerah and therefore it shouldn’t be discussed. The Friediker Rebbe, on the other hand, basically held like Rabbi Miller that the Holocaust was a punishment from Shamayim for the breakdown of European Jewry. Now since the Rebbe venerated his predecessor, how was he able to disagree with him?
To Always
Thanks for your comments. You clearly know more about the subject than I do. When I make statements they’re empirically based. The point is that the Yetzer hora wants to lull frum Jews into thinking that they’re perfect and the problem is with the freier. It’s definitely not that simple.
Rabbi Miller blamed the Holocaust on Chillul Shabbos, but Rabbi Yisroel Salanter started the Modern Mussar Movement because the Middos of many frum Jews were sorely lacking. And very little has changed. Always is absolutely right that we have no idea who Hashem favors.
To Avirah
I think that this is a case where your position and the Chabad view can both be justified. On the one hand, there are Jews who are totally entrenched in Aveiros, consider Norman Finklestein, as an example. He continues to support the Palestinians and refuses to criticize the Oct 7th massacre. On the other hand, I used to think that the Rebbe was off the wall for positing that all Jews would be redeemed by Moshiach. I think and/or hope that recent events are preparing the world for Moshiach, and I find it very encouraging that a number of Jewish celebrities(nonobservant) have stepped up on behalf of Israel. Along those lines, I paid a Shiva call a few weeks ago to the family of a Russian Jew. I worked with the father who was a lovely person, but we focused on the events in Israel. I was so impressed by their concern. One daughter asked me if I could help her get her Mezuzas checked. So yes the Pintel Yid is active in many Jews that might be thought of as Rachokim. In contrast, the psychos who continue bashing the “Zionist state” are probably irretrievably lost even if they have long-payos and only eat Cholov Yisrael.To sechel83
After the Hamas attack I stated that I wanted a moratorium from these disputes. Let me make another offer. You can continue to believe that the Rebbe will come back from the dead and save every Jew. I’ll wait to see who Hashem sends as Moshiach.
To Sechel83
Let me change the narrative. The Rebbwe has a Sichah in which he explaons why he holds that Moshiach will redeem every Jew including Roshoim. A Lubavicher taught me the Sichah about a year ago. If you’re familiar with it then we can discuss it. If you need me to tell you where this Sicha is ask me and I’ll speak to that Lubavicher. The fact is, however, that the Rebbe did not accept the Gemara in Chelek of 1/300,000.
To sechel83
I assume that you’re aware that there’s a war going on now in Israel. This is a time of Divine Judgment. Aren’t you afraid of Him at all? He hates liars. You change your arguments in each posts. Instead of wasting good Jews’ time you should say Tehilim and direct your prayers to the Ribono Shel Olam
To sechel83
The Vilna Gaon had a brilliant insight, “The simplest answer is the truth.” Your Rebbe rejected the Gemara in Chelek. It’s possible he had a valid rwason for doing so and so he’s not definitely a Kofer, You can’t change the facts. You cancite all the Gemaras you want but they have nothing to do with 1/300,000. Sorry, no one is buying what you’re trying to peddle. Also no mainstream Jew accepts that the Rebbe or any of the Nesiei Chabad were prophets.
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To Always
You make an excellent point. Sechel83 wrote, in a different thread, that he relies on and accepts what the Rebbe said 100pwrcent. Therefore it doesn’t matter to him if what he’s saying makes sense. As for Sechel’s unawareness of Gedolim, Lubavichers are taught that no one but the seven Nesiei Chabad count for anything. If you look at the Rebbe’s Yom Yom he only mentions the other six Rebbes. This was a major part of his brainwashing campaign.
To always
Thanks for weighing in, it’s tiresome to go back and forth with sechel. I think it’s time to take a step back. It should be clear to all that neither side will budge the other. This thread was started to convince mainstream Jews that the Rebbe will return to life as Moshiach. Obviously, every rational Jew rejects this. My reason for writing is so that people who are impressed with Chabad, because of their wonderful outreach work will recognize that Chabad’s belief system leaves much to be desired.
To sechel83
I assume you learn Gemara, but I doubt you understand what you study because there are glaring inconsistencies in your writing. First you said that I didn’t speak loshon hora and in the next laeagraph you accused me and other critics of Chabad of speaking loshon hora. That’s one example A second example. You said that if one speaks Loshon hora he lises his Chelek in Olsm Habo But in a different post you said thst every Jew including the worst Roshoim go to Olam Habo. Finally I didn’t call the Rebbe a kofer you did by saying that snyone who rejects a Gemsra is s Kofer and the Rebbe rejected 1/30000.
To the group
I spoke to a Lubavicher yesterday and asked him when the Rebbe began to speak about Moshiach’s imminent arrival. He told me it was as soon as he became Nasi. So let’s understand. The Rebbe announced more than seventy years ago that Moshiach is coming. Imminent means any minute, not any century. Anyone can predict that Moshiach will come at some time in the future. A prophecy requires an actual date.
To sechel83
How did I speak Loshon Hora? Is it because I compared the Rebbe to Trotsky(look up Leon Trotsky to find out who he was)? I don’t see the problem. You said that every Jew is exactly the same a piece of G-d. It therefore follows, according to you Lubavichers that there’s no difference between the Alter Rebbe and a meshumad. Mainstrwam Jews like myself, of course, reject this , but I’m simply making Diyukim based on “your” statements. Now back to my main point. The sources you presented have nothing to do with the Gemara that says that 1/300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. Therefore that Gemara stands and the Rebbe has no justification for rejecting an explicit Gemara.He also had no right to reject the Gemara which said that nevuah ended in Bayis Sheini.
edited
To Sechel83
Thanks for finally providing your sources, but there’s one problem. The Gemaras you quote speak about Roshoim who ultimately get into Olam Habo after a lengthy stay in Gehinnom. I will never challenge any statement in the Gemara, but that’s not the subject of the Gemara on 111a which says that only a small percentage of Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. Therefore, you haven’t provided any statement which challenges that Gemara. More troubling, however, is your assertion that there is no difference between Jews. What you’re saying is that the Rebbe and Trotsky, for example, are equal. Ch”vsh
To sechel83
” Bottom line. Every Jew is a Jew no matter what.”. The statement is true but it’s fraught with implications. What you’re umplying is that there’s no difference between Reb Chaim and Bernie Sandwrs. Hitler and Hamas would agree with that but Hashem certainly doesn’t. As Rabbi Avigdor Miller said, “Those Jews who wanted to spend their lives on the beaches of Hawaii will end up there.” A Jew will not be redeemed simply because his mother was Jewish.
To sechel83
For the record, you stated thst there were Gemaras that argued on the Gemara in Chelek. We both know that no such Gemara exists, As I stated earlier in the week this is not the time for Jews to fight with each other because our brothers and sisters in Israel are in danger. My thoughts are with them, but editedTo DaMoshe
You’re certainly right, but given what’s happening now, this isn’t the time to argue with Chabad. edited
To 613yid
I don’t think that anyone is challenging the notion of Moshiach min hameisim. What mainstream Jewry is saying is that when we speculate that Moshiach will come from the dead there’s no reason to assume that the specific dead person will be the Rebbe.
To sechel83You claimed that there are Gemaras(plural) that argue against the Gemara in Cheilek. We’re waiting for ypu to produce said Gemoros or admit that they don’t exist.
To 5783
It’s admirable that you’re apologizing for making insensitive remarks about the Rebbe. Obviously, you were affected by the Yomim Noraim. I would make two comments. First, you’ll never see or hear any Lubavicher make any apologies for insulting a litany of Gedolim. Second, those who criticize the Rebbe make sure it’s not personal. All agree that he was a genius in Nigleh, nistar, and the sciences. In addition, he was beloved by everyone who met him. That said,
edited
To sechel83
So you believe that there’s someone alive today who could be Moshiach, but you don’t know that person’s identity. I agree with you. And this has been true throughout the millennia. Only in the case of the Rebbe did his followers decide he was that potential Moshiach. Remember, mainstream Judaism never accepted the notion that the Rebbe was the Moshiach Hador when he was alive, and we certainly don’t believe that he’ll have a second coming to claim the throne. Yes, Rabbi Akiva said that about Bar Kochba, but when Bar Kochba died he realized he was wrong. That’s a message that is lost on Chabad because its leader changed or rejected Gemaras when they didn’t fit his agenda. BTW, instead of citing sources summarize them in English.
To Sechel
Still waitimg to hear your candidate for this generation’s living potential Moshiach.To sechel83
“The Chasam Sofer and othets write that in every generation there is someone alive who is fit to be Moshiach.” Who is that person in our generation? Yankel berelbcalled you a liar for refusing to admit that Moshiach min hameisim was a post Gimmel Tammuzi invention. I’ll second yankel’s assertion because there is no Machlokes in ths Gemara in Chelek. The only person in the history of the Jewish people who rejected that explicit Gemara is the Rebbe.
To yankel berel
Obviously reality means nothing. I met someone yesterday in the Sukkah. He credits Rabbi Miller for making h frum. He’s convonced that the Rebbe is Moshiach because Rabbi Miller endorsed him as being great.
edited
To yankel berel
I’d like to add to your point about Chabad rejecting the concept of Moshiach from the dead. A Lubavicher told me that when the Tebbe died it created shock waves in CH because it meant that he coulcn’t be Moshiach. Rather rhan accept that simple truth, two camps emerged. One denied that the Rebbe actually died, the other accepted that fact but consoled themselves with the Chazal that after a Tzaddik dies he’s more alive than when he was living.
To sechel83
You said it’s kefira to challenge an open Gemara. This said, how was the Rebbe able to reject the Gemara in Chelek which said that only pne out of 300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach?
To always,
As yankel berel said it’s not sinas chinam to criticize Chabad theology. All Hashem expects from us is that we tell the truth. If, as it’s quite clear that Chabad is distorting the truth to convince others of its beliefs then we’re obligated to call them out. As for your attack on Godolhad, if he’s right accept it. Don’t let your ego stand in the way of truth.To Gadol
Thanks for the clarification. Quite often certain details of a story get confused.
To Sechel
Your point is that Lubavichers don’t care what normal Jews think. Well if that’s so why did one of your landsman start this thread? He asserted that there is now clearcut proof that the Rebbe is Moshiach. That you guys feel the need to convince edit Jews of your lunacy is an indication that you realize how shoddy your evidence is. But if you want to believe that the Rebbe us Moshiach/god gesunterheit.
To yankel berel
Again, you’re spot on. The simple truth is that Chabad is trapped by its need to “prove” its lies. Actually I saw the same thing in another thread. I criticized Rabbi Miller, mildly, and one of his followers twisted the truth to defend him. It’s not the Jewish way to believe in perfect leaders. At the same time we must always be respectful to those who devote themselves to the Torah. Finally, the moderators deserve credit for maintaining civility in these discussions.To yankel berel
Your point is well taken but Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe should be trusted over the Gemara.To Always ask
You’re making a great point and I’d like to expand on it. When Rav Yaakov said that Moshiach would come from Rabbi Auerbach’s yeshiva he wasn’t stating a prophecy, or even making a prediction. Rather he was trying to impress on people that Moshiach will bring all Jews together and so a Yeshiva that meets the needs of Ashkenazim and Sefardim is what Hashem is looking for. In contrast, Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe was a Novi and so they take each of his words Kipshuto. That’s why they twist themselves into a pretzel trying to resolve his contradictory statements.
To any
Now you really have me confused. If you look at what you just wrote you’re now adding the friedige rebbe as Moshiach. So how does this work the Rebbe will be the actual Moshiach and the Rayatz will be Moshiach emeritus or will they be co captains? I’ll correct you on one point. You rely on your Rabbis to tell you who Moshiach is, real Jews undetstand that Hashem, and only Hashem will make that decision.
To always
The only thing we learn from Jewish history is that no one, except Hashem, knows the identity of Moshiach and when he will arrive. Rav Yaakov’s guess, it’s not a Psak, is as valid, or as meaningless as what Chabad tries shoving down our throats. A Jew is obligated in Torah and Mitzvohs and not in idle speculation about Moshiach. Yes, we all want Moshiach, but the Chafetz Chaim taught us how to ask Hashem to send our Redeemer, devote oneself to Torah study, particularly Kodshim and Taharos. Edited
To any
If normal Jews humor you and pretend to accept your nonsense can we end this thread?
To the group
The Gemara cites the Tanna, R Shimon Haamsuni who made it his life’s work to Darshen all the “essim” of the Torah. When he came to a certain Posuk whose “ess” he felt he couldn’t explain, R Shimon disbanded his life’s work. This is the pinnacle of intellectual honesty. In contrast, numerous questions have been posed to the Lubavichers in this and other threads and they’re batting a robust .000. Still they hold on to the belief that their Rebbe is the long-awaited Redeemer. We can explain their intransigence with a pithy aphorism, “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind’s made up.” There are two chances of the Rebbe being Moshiach, slim and none.
To ANY
I returned to the beginning of the thread and read your comment, “No one can be called Moshiach until he completes the Messianic mission, eg. rebuilding the Bes Hamikdosh, kibbutz galiyos etc.)” So we completely agree on this point. Here’s my question, “What do you say about your landsmen who have declared that the Rebbe is, at this moment, Moshiach?”To sechel83
So you’re now saying that the point of advertising Rabbi Bechpfer’s video is to justify Chabad’s belief that the Rebbe will come back to life and be Moshiach. If that’s your point and you’re not trying to convince non Lubavichers of your belief then fine. I do ‘t care if you continue to hold out hope. But here’s the problem. Why do so many of your landsmen not agree with you that the Rebbe will return from the dead and bece Moshiach? They claim that he never died and he is already Moahiach. Would you care to comment about them?