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To the group
It’s worth noting that Chabad routinely refers to the Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe shunned every honor. When Hashem told him to redeem Israel he begged that Aaron be theessenger. In contrast the Rebbe tried to convince his followers that he’s Moshiach.
To LitvisheFellow
Your point is well taken but it’s lost on the Lubavichers in this thread who have taken leave of their senses. My opprobrium is directed at peopleike YY Jacobson who know better but refuse to speak out because they don’t want to run afoul of the powwrs that run CH.
To the group
Thanks to CS I now understand the Chabad position. For a year Lubavichers pressured the Rebbe to accept the Nesius until he finally relented. They started pressuring him to announce that he’s Moshiach in 1965. Finally in 1991 he agreed to accept the position. Telling Lubavichers about Rambam doesn’t register because they believe that whatever the Rebbe wants he gets because of Tzaddik Gozeir.
To the group
CS has clarified the Chabad position. In 1991 a delegation of Lubavichers approached the Rebbe and asked him to accept the Meashichas. He smiled which indicated his assent. At that point he became Moshiach and in seven years he’ll come back to life to declare himself Moshiach for all the Jews.
To Always
You’re wasting your time asking a seaonable question to someone who’s irrational. CS believes that the Rebbe is already functioning as Moshiach despite the fact that he’s buried in Queens. I’m waiting for CS to compare the Rebbe to Dovid Hamelech whose kingship wasn’t accepted for the first 7 years. But there were at least two important differences. First, Hashem told a Novi to anoint David. Second Dovid was alive.To CS
So you’re saying that the Rebbe has been functioning as Moshiach for the last 33 years. The first three years he was alive and the last 30 as a dead Moshiach. So this will go on for another 7 years at which point he will be revealed as Moshiach for all the world. What will you say if year 40 comes and goes and he”s still interred?
To CS
So the Rebbe’s initial revelation was in 5751. Funny, that no real Jew knows about it. Must have been a private party. But let’s get “serious.” In seven yrars 40 years will have passed. Will you give up your belief at that time or willyou find some other Chazal to distort?To CS
ARSo is absolutely right. Lubavichers who believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach do so because you understand that he said he is. As I told sechel83 anyone who claims he’s Moshiach is not all there. The Chazal you cite to prove this lie doesn’t convince any Torah Jew. As Litvish fellow said. Just devote your life to Torah and Mitzvos and let Hashem take care of sendimg Moshiach.
To CS
You just said that you spend your time educating frum people who are Jewishly uneducated. By definition those pe.ople aren’t frum.
To CS
“The Rashi in Daniel says that Moshiach will be concealed over forty years after his initial revelation.” When did the Rebbe have his initial revelation as Moshiach
To sechel83
You asked me a simple question, “If someone says he’s Moshiach how would I know to believe him or not?” I answered that no person has the right to say that he’s Moshiach and if he does he should be put in a mental institution. ARSo just explained Rambam’s criteria for being Moshiach. If he accomplijshes all those things he ‘s Moshiach. It’s very simple edited
To sechel83
You ask, “If someone comes and says he’s Moshiach how will you know to believe him or not? If someone says he’s Moshiach he belongs in a mental hospital. The person who will be accepted as Moshiach will have fulfilled all of Rambam’s criteria. Thanks for your excellent question. Sadly no Lubavicher answers my questions.To Common
You”re right that Chabad needs a living Rebbe, but that Rebbe must explain to the Chassidim that the deification of the Rebbe must end. The person who could do this is Rabbi Shaul Shimon Deutch but he was driven out of CH for saying the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach.
Absolutely. In December of 2008, Rabbi Shlomo Cunin declared that the Rebbe runs the world and he will take us out of Golus. He should have been removed from his position, but nothing, as far as I know was done.
To kuvult
You write beautfully and logically, but logic is lost edited. I will challenge you on one point. The Baal Shem predated the Enlightenment. His goal, in spreading Chassidus, was making the Tehilim Yid feel that his Avodas Hashem was also a valid expression of Yiddishkeit.
To the group
It’s worth noting that YY Jacobson made it a point to publicly attack NK has been silent with regard to the hooligans. No Lubavichers in positions of authority will ever speak out against inzirrer.To the group
Let’s examine sechel’s latest. He quotes Rambam, “If a king will arise from the House of David.” The Rebbe wasn’t and isn’t a king. “who will compel all of Israel to walk in the way of the Torah” The overwhelming majority of Jews have no connection to the Torah. I could go on, but you get the point.
To the group
What’s interesting is that the Lubavichers don’t ask tbe counter question, “If the Rebbe is Moshiach will you(non Lubavichers) accept him? Obviously they know the answer. Torah Jews will accept, as Moshiach the person who meets Rambam’s criteria.To coffee addict
Your argument is solid but I think there is validity to the question. When lostspark flatly says no that means that even if Moshiach is anointed and does everything that Rambam codified he qon’t care. Those who answered yes are reasonable to some degree and so there might be hope for them.The question that started this thread implies that a Chassidus is viable if it has a Rebbe. This, in itself, must be questioned, because it depends on the Rebbe In the case of Chabad, the Rebbe convinced his followers to become obsessed with his belief that he was(is) Moshiach, and this informs their very existence. On the other hand, if you had a Rebbe, like the Sfas Emes(my favorite) who made Torah study the sine qua non of life, I think the movement could go on quite well without a Rebbe.
Edited
To sechel83
Who ever said that they teach Hashem’s 42-letter name in Chabad Yeshivos?To sechel83
“I wrote kabala or chassidus”. Wrong you said thatArizal said that one who doesnt learn Chassidus or Kabbala his Torah is Sam Hamaves. When I called you out for being an inveterate liar you changed your story.
To ARSo
There’s nothing earthshattering to what they delete. It’s just the mod’s view that a statement crosses the line. I don’t Chas V’shalom use inapproriate language.To 5783
If I undwrstood you correctly you said that the Arizal and Besht conversed. Arizal died about a 100 years before rhe Besht was born. So perhaps you need to do some fact checking.
To Lostspark
“I still can’t wrap my mind around why you attend a Chabad shul.” It:s not a Chabad shul. It’s a shul whose Rabbis are Chabad. We get along because they don’t push their beliefs on me and I don’t challenge their beliefs either. That thisvis hard for you to understand is a strong indicator that you’re an in your face Lubavicher who demands that every Jew accepts the Rebbe. Not aall Lubavichers are like that.
To the group
I think we should understand why studying Chassidus and Kabbalah is so important to Chabad. I used to listen to Rabbi Butman when he was on the radio on Motzei Shabbosim. On numerous occasions, he said that when Moshiach comes there will be no more conventional Talmudic study, rather we’ll only learn the Kabbalistic interpretations of the Gemara. Since Lubavichers believe that we’re already in Yemos Hamoshiach they’re trying to replace Talmudic study with the study of Chassidus. Last week my son met a Lubavicher who told him, “Learning Torah without Chassidus is like ordering a steak meal and only getting served french fries.” edited
To sechel83
You state that Arizal said that one must learn Chassidus or his Torah is a Sam Hamaves. Arizal preceded Chassidus by 200 by 200 years so he obviously never said that. I do agree that one must learn with Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas Torah and I do that when I learn Gemara. Just as important Torah must bring o e to truth. You guys brag that you make a Siyum every year on Rambam But you don’t accept his teachings.Rambam clearly states the criteria for Moshiach and the Rebbe hasn’t met any of the requirements. But you dismiss Rambam because of some speech the Rebbe gavevin 1951To sechel83
The problem with Chabad is not that you learn Kabbalah although it ‘s insanity that you encourage kids to do so. The problem is your attitude towards learning. Instead of looking for truth you cherry pick Chazal to prove that the Rebbe is Moshiach edited
To lostspark
Newsflash. You’re on planet earth. The moshol of Yaakov’s ladder is that the Tzaddik reaches the heavens. But only if his feet are planted on the ground i.e. he’s normal. Those who met Gedolim like Rav Moshe and Rav Yaakov come away most impressed by their normalcy.
To Menachem Shmei
Your point is well taken. I was simply addressing sechel who never tops touting Kabbalah as the answer to all questions. If Lubavichers supplement Gemara with Chassidus that’s great, but if everything is Kabbalah not so much. Btw the Rabbi I generall. Turn to when I need clarification in the Gemara is Rabbi Zajac Chabad of La Cienega who’s an i credible Talmid Chachsm and a wonderful person. As for my remark abput 6 year olds I was speaking Lav Davka to make a point.To sechel
I’m impressed that you’re such a fan of the Gaon. edited. Yes the Gaon knew Kabbala, but that’s because he knew everything. But his focus was Nigleh so no he wouldn’t advise six year olds to close their Gemaras and study Arizal. The Gemara says that Torah can be a Sam Hachaim or a Sam Hamoves. When people learn Torah that’s not appropriate for them it’s a Sam Hamoves.To sechel83
“Why shouldn’t we learn Kabbala?” For many reasons. Edited But let’s not get personal. In the aftermath of the Shabbetai Tzvi debacle, an edict was established for Ashkenazic Jewry that only those who are forty, married, and fully versed in Nigleh can then take on esoteric Torah. Chabad violates this Psak so they are Chotim. And we’ve seen throughout our history the danger of Kabbalah in the wrong hands. It started with Yoshke, continued with Shabbetai Tzvi and now we have ignorant children in Crown Heights who consider themselves Mekubalim. There you have my answer. edited
To mdd1
You’re absolutely right. Kabbalah is for a select few. Definitely not for the masses.
To sechel83
Funny how you can’t spell “funy”. What is your point? Maybe others understand your postings but I rarely do.
To .Menachem Shmei
Yes Chabad is going to use its connections to eliminate Israel’s flag and replace it with the Chsbad flag. That should really go over well with the freier.To the group
The last time I checked Israel was a country. It’s a democracy with a Knesset the whole nine yards. Now we have a group of American Jews who want to tell Israel how it should be run. That’s a terrible Chutzpah. One of Rav Shach’s main complaints against the Rebbe is that he tried to “Mish Arein” into Israeli politics from Brooklyn. We’ll have a Torah-based society when Moshiach comes, but for now, we should keep our mouths and Seforim open.
To the group
Sechel83 said that misnagsim burned the Tanya. I’ve never heard thst before. Is it true?
To the group
Yesterday Menachem Shmei said that the Eibishter is the center of his universe. Today he reaffirms that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. It follows then that Shmei’s Eibishter is the Rebbe.
To Menachem Shmei
Categorically stating that all Lubavichets believe that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form constitutes trying to convince me of that view. If you feel otherwise we can agree to disagree.To Menachem Shmei
The issue of “god clothed in human form” was discussed in earnest on August 15,16(but it was mentioned at other times.) Sechel83 stated that in 1962 the Rebbe declared that he was “god clothed in human form” and since Rav Moshe didn’t protest we see that he accepted it. I responded that Rav Moshe most definitely never heard such a statement. Ultimately sechel83 backed down from his statement which led you to write on August 16th 10.01 PM that you don’t understand sechel’s retraction since the Rebbe clearly said that he’s “god clothed in human form” So there you have one posting where you endorse this idea. Don’t worry I’m not going to ask you to keep your word and leave the CR. I only wrote this to demonstrate my integrity. Dr. Berger wrote in his book that 8 prominent Chabad Rabbis stated that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form. He didn’t make things up. As emerged from your thread it’s common knowledge and generally accepted in Chabad that the Rebbe is god incarnate C”V.
To sechel83
To say that everything comes “from” the Rebbe means that he, and not Hashem, is the source. To say that everything comes via or through(same thing) means that it comes from Hashem but the Tzaddik influences it. They don’t mean the same thing, and yes to say “from” is AZ. I quoted a Chabad Rabbi who said Hashem and the Rebbe protect us. Do you agree with him that the Rebbe is G-d’s partner? One more thing, stop hiding behind quotes from Tanya and learn how to express your ideas.
To Menachem Shmei
I don’t understand why you get so bent out of shape by my comments. If you think they’re the rantings of a lunatic you should ignore them. I never respond to personal attacks and when I was on VIN I was called every name in the book. As for your claim that your life revolves around the eibishter. You might want to check out your thread(question of an ignorant). Ypu spent about a month trying to convince me that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form, and I clearly answered that there’s no place in my life for AZTo ARSo
It’s great to have you back. I really don’t want to be a lone wolf “attacking” Chabad. I put attacking in quotations because, as Alway Ask noted, the goal of those who criticize Chabad is simply to get them to realize the folly of their ways. Rav Dovid Feinstein zatzal has a beautiful insight in his Kol Dodi Haggadah. Regarding the line, “All who expand on Sippur Yetzias Mitzrayim are praiseworthy.” Rav Dovid commented, “People talk about what’s important to them.” When we look at the Lubavichers in this and other sites do they ever mention Hashem? Yesterday sechel83 again pledged his devotion to the greatness of the Rebbe. Look Rav Moshe’s greatness was beyond my comprehension, but I never lose sight that no one is anything when compared to HKBH.
To sechel83
As you stated last week, “It’s the Rebbe and not Hashem who provides sustenance to the world, so what, if anything is G-d’s function?”
To Sechel83
I definitely acknowledge that I have little or no understanding of Hashem’s ways and therefore I don’t offer quick-fix solutions for the present crisis. I simply daven to Hashem that He should have mercy on us, end the war, and bring Moshiach. Let me ask you two questions. First, “Do you believe that Hashem and the Rebbe are partners?” Second, “What, if anything, does Ain Od Milvado mean to you?”
To Always
Thank you so much for your latest comment, because you nailed it. Any rational person recognizes how far Chabad theology is from actual Judaism. I know that Lubavichers mean well and I certainly agree that they do much good, but I pride myself on being devoted to the truth and so I must tell it like it is. If Sechel83 can actually state that Tanya teaches that the Rebbe is the source of all blessings
does anything more need to be said?To Moderator
Obviously, I know that a significant percentage of my posts don’t get through, but I’m okay with that because each one takes me just a minute or two to write. I greatly appreciate the fact that you allow me to express my views about Chabad. I believe that sometime, hopefully in the near future, Hashem will make His presence so manifest
Edited
To Menachem Shmei
I’m obsessed with condemning Chabad because your theology is anathema to Hashem. In these times when G-d is clearly in judgment mode those who believe in Him must declare Aion Od Milvado and categorically reject a movement that asserts that the Rebbe is His equal partner or has supplanted Him. This is not hyperbole on my part. I am simply quoting the many Chabad Rabbis I know. To your credit, you know better than to accuse me of lying, because I don’t. Instead, you and your landsmen resort to any variety of tactics to portray me in a negative light. But you can’t stop me. As for your question, and it’s a good one, “Why don’t I comment on other subjects on this site?” The answer is simple. I have been a regular contributor to the Jewish Press for the last 40 years and I’ve covered a vast array of subjects. I focus on Chabad at YWN for a simple reason, it’s the only venue that allows me to call out your Kefirah. Interesting you feel that way as i probably delete 50% of your posts.
Hope that answers your question. And oh yes. Checkmate.
To Menachem Shmei and Sechel83
You guys have me confused. Menachem is angry because I reported that the two guys said that the Rebbe supports them but sechel says that it’s open in Tanya. So I have another one. At this past year’s Seudas Moshiach the Rabbi declared, “We have no reason to be afraid because Hashem and the Rebbe are protecting us.” So is it a 50-50 partnership or what?
To the group
I would suggest a compromise position between that of Always and the moderator. If we look at current events, clearly Hashem is pulling the strings. Hamas perpetrated an act of unimaginable savagery and the world responded by attacking Israel and the Jewish people. This can only mean that Hashem is speaking to us and telling us to get our houses in order. Therefore, as Always is saying, Hashem is interested in hearing from the common Jew, but, as the Moderator asserts ultimately we must follow Daas Torah. But it’s not so simple because there is no consensus on who or what is Daas Torah. Moreover, most Jews aren’t observant so obviously, Daas Torah is irrelevant to them. It seems then that our best option is to direct our prayers to Shamayim
To Lostspark and Menachem Shmei
Let me tell you an interesting story. Before I came to YWN I was disputing Chabad on VIN. Since Lubavichers aren’t capable of advancing substantive arguments they just resorted to name-calling and so I left that site and joined YWN. When the war started I called for a truce with Chabad. I checked out VIN for war-related updates and commented on how impressed I was that so many Jews were becoming committed to Mitzvos. One fellow, who had viciously insulted me, remarked that he was shocked that we could agree on anything. The same thing occurred a week later. I told him that if we could make peace it would give Hashem tremendous Nachas, but he didn’t respond to that overture. I fully understand that Lubavichers will not be swayed from their beliefs, but why don’t you guys get into discussions that are nondenominational? Now we’re talking about the war let’s hear your opinions. I know that there are many exceptionally bright Lubavichers.