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Thanks Lemayseh. I’d like to elaborate on what you said. Rabbi Schachter, on that program, said that many Lubavitchers daven to the Rebbe and not to Hashem and that’s idolatry. Lichtenstein had to do damage control so he bought on Kotlarsky to refute that assessment. Kotlarsky, of course, denied that any Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe. Lichtenstein then said, “So there you have it. Rabbi Moshe Kotlarsky who’s in charge of over 2,000 Mosdos in CH has categorically denied that any Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe.” Right, trust the CEO of Chabad over a world class Rosh Yeshiva. Lichtenstein will have to answer a lot of questions in the Olam Haemes.
Test
I
You seem to be implying that he wasn’t a great man whyso?
Rabbi Sacks was a great man
To DaMoshe
I can’t definitively state if they all believe it but since no one in Chabad has spoken out against this kefirah it’s safe to assume that Hashem is judging them all as Kofrim and Avodei Zarah. As for my davening in a Chabad shul I’m relying on the fact that they haven ‘t been officially excised from the teligion by the Gedolim. I do admit that I might be wrong but I can’t imagin not davening with a minyan.
To CS
You argue that the Rebbe is Nosi Hador because he influenced so many people. I’ve go a scoop for you. My wife is a follower of the Rebbe but not Chabad. She goes to the Ohel about 10 times a year because she believes in him. No she doesn’t ask me to jpin her. She hates the fact that I attack Chabad and the Rebbe but the Torah demands that you kofrim be exposed.
To yankel berel
They have irrefutable proof that he was Nosi Hador, he said so. In fact he said that every one of the seven Chabad Rebbes was Nasi Hador. Try betting that. For 250 years the greatest Jew is a Lubavicher. Talk about rigging the elections.
To the group
CS unintentionally resolved the difficulty which has been the subject of so much discussion, Moshiach coming from the dead. In fact only the Rebbe’s guf gass died but his guf dak is still alive and so he’s mot dead at all. Rather he’s hanging out at 770. This explains how he cam gey Aliyahs everyonday amd Thursday. Moreover because the Rebbe was an engineer he made the plans for the tunnels. Several years ago a Lubavicher came tp our shul and spoke at the Kiddush, “People make a mistake when they compare the Rebbe to Moshe. The Rebbe was much greater.” He explained, “The Torah says that Moshe ggot angry, but the Rebbe never got angry.” Yes CT Chabad is a normal variant of Judaism.
To CS
You should read what I wrote more clearly
I didn’t challenge the term Nasi, what I challenged is your assertion that the Rebbe was the head of all Jews. He may have been your leader but he certainly wasn’t the leader of Klal Yisrael. As for me being arrogant for calling myself doctor. That’s the title I earned and was given to me by the state of NY. Should I tell my patients to call me qwerty? You keep returning to my supposed slander. We both agree that the Rebbe called himself god clothed on human form. You choose to believe that thos is correct. I choose to believe, as do all rational Jews, that this is Kefirah.To the group
There’s an expression that was popular in my youth, “close counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.” Now, thanks to CS, we can add, and prophecies from the Rebbe.”
To the group
Could someone comment on CS’s Hebrew source?
To the group
To fend off the challenge from Ramban CS asserts that he wasn’t truthful during those debates. Talk abput the pot calling a kettle black. A Lubavicher accusing the Ramban a liar. In fact he only agreed to participate when he was told that he could speak his views freely. That’s why he had to leave Spain shortly after. His comments angered certain people. Try again CS keep producing those bogus sources and ridiculous claims. edited
To CS
ARSo asked you a simple question, “Since the Rebbe stated that the Friediker Rebbe was Moshiach was he wrong?” Stop playing games. It’s a simple question and the answer is that he was wrong or that when the Rebbe said that his father in law was Moshiach he wasn’t using the term Moshiach as we understand it in which case he is also not Moshiach as Judaism undestands it.
To CS
You accuse me of speaking loshon hora fpr calling your Rebbe a god clothed in human form When I answeted that I just called him what he called himself you responded that he meant it in a good wsy but meant it as slander. Sorry CS you ‘re not a mimd reader so don’t put thoughts into my words. No rational human bbeing ever compared himself to god in any way except tje Rebbe. Therefore he declared homself a god.
To CS
You claim that the Rebbe is the head of the Jews. This os necause he said he is. Again Hashem despises Gaavah.
Edited
To ARSo and Yankel Berel
CS calls you “bitter people.” And she calls me ignorant besides what the moderators don’t let through. But that’s par for the course. Chabad tells ots minions that Rav Shach criticized them because he wasn’t given hiredb as a Rabbi in a Chabad yeshiva. And Dr. Berger wrote his book because he hadn’t published anything and he was going to lose his teaching position.
To ARSo and Yankel Berel
You are both completely missing the boat by pointing out that rlthe Rebbe’s prediction(prophecy?) didn’t come true. The Rebbe’s credentials as a Novi allow him to retain that syatus even when he’s proven wrong. And there are many sources for this.
To the group
The moshol of Yaakov’s ladder is fundamental. Even though our Patriarch’s face is on the Kisei Hakovod the ladder was planted on the ground meaning he was grounded in normalcy. Rabbi Moshe Tendler spoke about his father in law and syressed how normal he was. Rabbi Butman, on jis radio program, regularly says that when Moshiach comes there won’t be any more Shnayim Ochzin Bitalis. Rather we’ll only have the Kabbalistic meaning of the Gemara. Thos attitude explains why Lubavichers don’t care what Rambam or the Gemara says. They think we’re in a new era where Kabbalah reigns.
To CS
You misunderstood what I meant about Rabbi Zajac. Qe don’t know each other. If I get stuck on a point in the Gemara I liaten to him online and he usually clarifies it for me. When it comes to Hashkafah and Halacha I have plenty of mainstream Rabbis to rely on
To DaMoshe
You were Michavin to what I was thinking. Yes Joe Namath is Moshiach. He predicted the Jets would win the Super Bowl in 1969. Now we have to trace his lineage to Dovid Hamelech. Hey you never know
Edited
To the group
I asked CS to give an example of my having spread Loshon hora. She answered that I accepted the lie that the Rebbe is god. The problem is that the Lubavichers in a different thread said that the Rebbe announced in 1962 that he’s god clothed in human form. So I’ve spoken Lishon hora by repeating what the Rebbe said about himself.
To yb
I don’t think Coffee waa making light of the Chabad belief in a aecond coming rather he was pointing out how odious is such a suvgestion. More than a decade ago Shmuely Boteach was on Zev Brenner’s program and Zev asked him if he thought the Rebbe was Moshiach. Boteach answered, “The Rebbe is the greatest influence in my life, but he can’t be Moshiach because Judaism flatly rejects any suggestion of a second coming.”
To CS
Still waiting for your proof(s) that I’ve used Koshon Hora.
Edited
To CS
You imputed that I’m not familiar with the concept of a Sichah and that’s why I reject it. Since I’ve been davening in a Chabad shul for years I’d have to be retarded not to be aware of the Rebbe’s sichos. IMHO a sichah is the Rebbe making something up which is at odds with our accepted trsditions and then using his encyclopedic knowledge to produce supporting evidence(of course I don’t mean that everything he said was a lie just as I accept most but not all of Rabbi Miller’s Torah).The problem is that you take this one step further and invent “the three stage process” and then convince yourself that it’s true. Where are your sources?
To the group
This thread should be renamed, “As CS changes the subject”
As I told Menachem Shmei on numerous occasions,”If you can’t or won’t answer a question it’s checkmate.”To DaMoshe
Just a desperate ploy by CS who senses that her cause is lost. We recognize Reb Chaim’s greatness in Torah but no one suggests he’s Moshiach and certaimly not god.
To CT
Your silence is deafening.
To yb
There’s no point trying to get through to Lubavichers. While I for one will acknowledge the Rebbe’s genius etc no Lubavicher will ever admit that any point we make has validity.
To CS
You accused me of writing Loshon hora. Please present tangible example(s) of Halachic Loshon hora that I wrote.
To CS
“The Rebbe wasn’t trying to prove anything to anyone.” Exactly and, in fact, he never proved anything to anyone and that’s why maimstream Judaism rejects all of Chabad’s ridiculous assertions.
To ARSo
I assure you that I am in full control of my senses. The reason for the typos is that my computer broke and I’m writing from my phone. I apologize for the errors but the points are still relatively clear.
To CT
Still waiting for your answer. Remember we’re not in secular court where lawyers use their shenanigans to win. We are in Hashem’s court and it’s all about the truth.
Edited
To CS
I should have made my point more clearly. Hashem gave Moshe signs that had been passed down from Yaakov and Yosef. He brought those signs to the Gedolei Hador and they recognized him as the Goel Tzedek. The Rebbe made up signs that he gave to his followers. If the Rebbe actually had communication with Hashem then he should have gone yo the Gedolim to get Haskamah. It’s quite obvious why he didm’t choose that tack, edited
To CT
Do you agree that those Lubavichers who do espouse what I enimerated are not practicing Judaism?
Second after the tunnel story Zev.Brenner interviewed a number of Lubavichers. Zev mentioned that there’s a dospute between the Mesjichistas and mormal Jews. One Lubavicher told him that 99.99 percent of Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach but many lie and deny it to fool mainstream Kews imtp thinking tbey’re normal. You can find the program on line and hear what the guy said.To CS
The Gemara in Cheilek quotes Rav Simai who said that the final redemption will replicate Yetzias Mitzrayim Just as in the former only 2 of 600k left Egypt and entered EY so too at the final redemption only one of 300k will be redeemed. The Rebbe rejected this as I’m sure you know.
To CS
Very convincing. You offer as proof that Nevuah can come before Moshiach arrives from a Sichah of the Rebbe. So again you’re using circular logic. We know the Rebbe is a Novi becahse he said he’s a Novi. And we know the Rebbe is Moshuach because the Rebbe said he’s Moshiach. When Hasjem sent Moshe initially he asked Hashem to give him a sign that the elders would accept that he was sent by G-d. If Hasjem spoke to the Rebbe he wpd have given him a similaf sign. But of course he had no such sign. Therefore I’ll reiterate rhere is no proof for any of Chabad’s preposterous claims other than the fact that you trust whatever the Rebbe said. As for your comments I don’t recall praising the Rebbe’s Torah but he certainly had amazing Yediyah’s on Rashi. This said he also rejected explicitly Gemaras in favor of his ideas and that’s unconscionable
To CS
I will not address any comment you make until you answer my challenge. Provide evidence that the Rebbe was a Novi otber than,”Because he said he is.”
To CT
I object your assertion that it’s my opinion that Chabad is not a valid expression of Judaism. I have rock solid arguments. Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe was a Novi. They beliwve that he ran/runs the world. They believe that he is/ was god clothed in human form.They believe he is/was Moahiach. Moerover you presented no legitimate arguments to support the notion that Chabad is simply a variant of Judaism. All you said is that Chabad doesany nice things and provides essential services. I agree with that statwment but the issue is with their belief system.
To CS
Have you found time in your busy schedule to answer my question. Until you do it’s checkmate.
To DaMoshe
There was a popular book “Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.” We should adapt that, “Normal Jews are from earth, Lubavichets are from Atzilus (yechida)
To ctlawyer
Lubavichers are Jews but their religion is ‘t Judaism
To CS
You are avoiding the question which stands at the heart of this discussion. Your entire religion is based on the belief that Hashem spoke to the Rebbe as he communicated with Moshe Rabbeinu. You like to cite esoteric Torah but I live in the realm of Gemara. There is a Chazakah established by the Gemara that Nevuah will not return until Moshiach’s arrival. Lubavichers want to posit that the Rebbe is an(the) exception. According to the principle of Hamotzi Meichaveiro you must prove tbat the Rebbe is was a Novi.
To CS
You hit the nail on the head today. If it were true that Hashem communicated with the Rebbe as he did with Moshe then no one would challenge the statements co.i v out of CH. But the Rebbe dod not speak to Hashem. It’s as simple as that. As for your statement that the claim that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form is slander. Sorry, Dr. Berger quoted 8 leading rabbis from OHolei Torah who all agreed that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form You can be sure that Dr. Berger didn’t make it up. Finallg do you agree with Rabbi Cunin that the Rebbe runs the world and he will take us out of Golus.
To CS
Let me clarify why your comparison of the Rebbe to Moshe is specious. Moshe accepted his missions because Hashem spoke to him. In the case of the Rebbe he decided that he’s in charge. Rabbi Shlomo Cunin announced in 2008 that the Rebbe runs the world. Several Lubavichers on VIN and YWN have endorsed this by positing that the Rebbe decreed that he’s taking over and Hashem stepped aside.
To CS
You don’t understand the Torah’s view of humility. Being humble doezn’t mean refusing to do what Hashem wants because you feel unworthy. Being humble means that a person accomplishes a tremendous amount but he recognizes that it’s all thanks to Hashem In 1951 the Rebbe announced he’s Moshiach. In 1962 he announced he’s god. If you think that’s humility maybe you should put away your Zohar and get a dictionary. And don’t deny that he said those things because Menache. sh.ei and Sechel 83 said that in a different thread last year.
To Sechel83
I already read the kuntrus and I’m way ahead of you. I bought my yechi yarmulka. In fact I paid ten dollars extra and had them insert Boreinu.
To yankel berel
What took you so long? It’s great that you’re back in the game. I will never forget how you defended me against the mob because I was guilty of a sin equal to AZ, Gilui Arayos and murder watching TV. Obviously we can’t save Chabad. The only hope is for someone like YY Jacobson to speak out but he’s toobusy saving us from NK
To the group
The Gemara says that there were three great people Dovid, Avraham and Moshe. Dovid called himself a worm. Avraham said he’s dirt and ashes. Moshe was the greatest, he said he’s nothing. What did the Rebbe say about himself? I’m the Gadol Hador. Compare the Rebbe to Moshe Rabbeinu? I don’t think so.
To CS
I appreciate the fact that you respond to my comments in a non-confrontational manner. I also appreciate that you understand that none of your beliefs resonate at all with non-Lubavichers. You think that we’ve failed the test by not accepting your false Messiah, but you will have a much greater test which is to accept the real one. As for the comparison of the Rebbe and Moshe Rabbeinu. No human being who has ever lived can be compared to the greatest man the world has ever known.
To DaMoshe
Your story was beautiful and illustrates that the only thing that matters to Hashem is the Torah. To that point I’d like to share the following. I learn Gemara using Artscroll. Occasionally I get stuck so I go online for help. My main source is Rabbi Avraham Zajac Chabad of La Cienega CA. He’s a giant Tal.id Chacham and a tremendous Baal Masbir. If Lubavichers would devote their time to legitimate Torah study instead of twisting Chazal to prove that yhe Rebbe is Moshiach they would discover what our religion is all about.
To the group
After a rather lengthy hiatus Menachem Shmei decides to weivh in. He has nothing substantive to say so he tries to make light of tbe criticisms directed as his dubious brand of Judaism. But sorry, no one is buying it. This has been a very productive thread becauae there have been many contributors. We are all united Chabad is not Judaism.
To the group
It’s worth noting that Chabad routinely refers to the Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe shunned every honor. When Hashem told him to redeem Israel he begged that Aaron be theessenger. In contrast the Rebbe tried to convince his followers that he’s Moshiach.
To LitvisheFellow
Your point is well taken but it’s lost on the Lubavichers in this thread who have taken leave of their senses. My opprobrium is directed at peopleike YY Jacobson who know better but refuse to speak out because they don’t want to run afoul of the powwrs that run CH.
To the group
Thanks to CS I now understand the Chabad position. For a year Lubavichers pressured the Rebbe to accept the Nesius until he finally relented. They started pressuring him to announce that he’s Moshiach in 1965. Finally in 1991 he agreed to accept the position. Telling Lubavichers about Rambam doesn’t register because they believe that whatever the Rebbe wants he gets because of Tzaddik Gozeir.
To the group
CS has clarified the Chabad position. In 1991 a delegation of Lubavichers approached the Rebbe and asked him to accept the Meashichas. He smiled which indicated his assent. At that point he became Moshiach and in seven years he’ll come back to life to declare himself Moshiach for all the Jews.
To Always
You’re wasting your time asking a seaonable question to someone who’s irrational. CS believes that the Rebbe is already functioning as Moshiach despite the fact that he’s buried in Queens. I’m waiting for CS to compare the Rebbe to Dovid Hamelech whose kingship wasn’t accepted for the first 7 years. But there were at least two important differences. First, Hashem told a Novi to anoint David. Second Dovid was alive.To CS
So you’re saying that the Rebbe has been functioning as Moshiach for the last 33 years. The first three years he was alive and the last 30 as a dead Moshiach. So this will go on for another 7 years at which point he will be revealed as Moshiach for all the world. What will you say if year 40 comes and goes and he”s still interred?
To CS
So the Rebbe’s initial revelation was in 5751. Funny, that no real Jew knows about it. Must have been a private party. But let’s get “serious.” In seven yrars 40 years will have passed. Will you give up your belief at that time or willyou find some other Chazal to distort?