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Let’s take a step back. What we can discern from this and similar threads is that Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach and that he is(was) a Novi. Not long ago England crowned a new king. The event was witnessed by hundreds of millions throughout the world. Chabad is telling us that the Rebbe was anointed Moshiach, essentially making him king of the entire world, but no one knows about it. There’s not even a YouTube clip. And as for his being a Novi, one of the posters said this was proven during the 6 Day War. At that time Rav Moshe was the unquestioned Gadol Hador. All that was needed was for the two to meet and Rav Moshe would have tested him. As Avira correctly stated, Nevuah is definable, it’s not voodoo. Chabad wants us to trust them at their word. No chance. We are a stiffnecked people. Finally, how ridiculous is it to suggest that the Rebbe understood Pshatim in the Gemara that no one in the last 2000 years knew?
To Menachem Shmei
Let’s assume you’re right and the Rebbe’s Pshat in the Gemara is correct, i.e. all Jews will be redeemed when Moshiach comes. Here’s a problem. The Gemara quotes an Amora who said that he doesn’t want to be alive when Moshiach comes. Now that makes sense if we accept the old-fashioned, now disproven pre-Rebbe Pshat that very few Jews will actually be redeemed. But according to the new and improved version, it’s gonna be party central. Alan Dershowitz, Woody Allen, and Bernie Sanders will have a Ketzos Chavrusa. So why would that Amora not want to see that halcyon period?
To Menachem Shmei
Thanks for your latest submission because now I comprehend your position. For 2,000 years Klal Yisroel believed the simple Pshat that Nevuah ended during Bayis Sheini. No Tanna, Amora, Gaon, Rishon or Acharon challenged this. Then the Rebbe tells the world that no one understood Pshat until he came along because, in fact, Nevuah still exists. For 2,000 years people learned the Gemara which said that just as only 2 of 600,000 Jews left Egypt and came to Israel, so too only 2 out of 600,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. No one ever questioned this until the Rebbhe decided that he knew the real Pshat and all Jews will be redeemed. Chabad calls the Rebbe the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe’s most distinguished trait was humility. What Chutzpah for anyone to suggest that he knows more than all the Tzaddikim who came before him.
To Avira
Let me elucidate. The quote, as I remember it, (I’m probably off a word or two) , “The Vilna Gaon was the best friend that Chassidus had because without his attacks we would have abandoned Nigleh entirely.” This is in line with what Avira said. Recently I received some background information. The Aruch Hashulchan got his Semicha from the Tzemach Tzedek and he heard this quote. The Aruch Hashulchan’s son the Torah Temimah then publicized it which is why so many know about it. Of course Lubavichers deny that it was ever said.To Avira
I really don’t want to argue with you because it’s clear that our Hashkahahs are closely aligned. This said you spent the better part of yesterday challenging my statements against the Rebbe. Now you’re basically repeating what I said. Please clarify your position. As I’ve made it clear my issues are with Chabad AND the Rebbe.To Coffee addict
Why don’t you want to defend me? I’m a really nice person and our views are in lockstep. Moreover, I backed you up when you asked if Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is perfect. They changed the subject and called him a Tzasddik Gomur, but your reference to being perfect was spot on.
To ARSo
Great posting. Not only did the Rebbe say that the Rayyatz was a Novi, but in the Gutnick Chumash he commented that a number of the Baalei Tosafists were Neviim(I don’t recall the ones he enumerated.) The Rebbe felt that he could challenge or reject Gemaras which didn’t suit his own agenda. That doesn’t negate his genius and his remarkable accomplishments it just means that his Torah can not be trusted. All the Rebbe’s sources are meaningless because they “proved” what he wanted to believe. Obviously, his followers blindly accept his every word as Torah Misinai. No human being in our times can argue against the Gemara as that would imply that he believes he can match the logic and foresight of a Tanna or Amora.To mdd1
The only thing Lubavichers want to do in these threads is to keep us off balance because they can’t deal with the truthful, logical arguments we present. I think you’re doing a great job, so keep it up. The only advice I’d offer is that you ignore everything the Lubavichers say and keep pounding away at them. You can’t change them because the Rebbe is their god, but hopefully, some people who haven’t yet seen the light will change their tune when they see the evidence.
To Avira
I have no intention of trying to guess what will happen to Chabad but you’re certainly free to speculate. As for the Chair issue, it’s much ado about nothing. I just used it as a red herring to demonstrate the fallacy of Chabad theology. Again, according to Chabad pigs will be kosher when Moshiach comes so how can they say that the Rebbe is Moshiach? It’s simple logic. All I’m doing, along with some terrific posters, is pointing out some of the flaws in Chabad’s belief system as well as issues that must be raised about the Rebbe. Do I agree that the Rebbe was a supergenius? Absolutely. And his worldwide Shluchim movement is tremendous. Moreover, his explanations of Rashi are extraordinary. So I’m not writing him off by any means. But at the same time anyone who rejects any word of the Torah, be it Oral or Written must be taken to task. And I’m not interested in his proofs, just as I wouldn’t be interested if Rabbi Sacks ZL objected to, say slavery, and wrote the most incredible thesis(of course he’d never do such a thing). But the Rebbe did. Avira, we’re not that far apart. Admittedly I turn people off because I sound cocky. It’s the fact that I know I’m telling the truth that emboldens me.
To sechel83
Nobody is arguing that Nevuah is a legitimate concept. The problem is that the Gemara explicitly said that Nevuah ended during the 2nd Temple period and will not be restored until Moshiach comes. But we know that the Rebbe has no problem rejecting Gemaras when they don’t suit his agenda. This is another example of the Rebbe putting himself above the Torah. I accept that the Rebbe was a genius. I just don’t believe or trust anything he said.
To ARso and mdd1
Are you really just struggling with the concept of nasty and rude? Or can you just not help yourself?
To Avira
You’ve decided to defend the Rebbe vis a vis the Chazir’s future status. Fine, I’ll help you. I acknowledge your Kabbalistic sources and therefore the Rebbe has every right to say that in the Messianic Era pig meat will be Kosher. Here’s the problem. According to sechel83 and many other Lubavitchers, we are already in the Messianic Era. This said, why hasn’t the Briyah of the Chazir changed? Check, it’s your move. Obviously, I’m being semi-facetious. The Gemara says that Hashem has nothing in this world other than the Four Amos of Halacha. Judaism is a Halacha based religion. By no means am I dismissing or impugning Kabbalah(I descend from great Galicianer Kabbalists in Europe). This said, Hashem clearly tells us in Parshas Nitzavim that the esoteric is His domain while we live in the world of Niglah. This is lost on Chabad, but it looks like you also need to have your head straightened out.
To Menachem Shmei
I’m glad you acknowledge that you’re unable to argue against me because of my superior logic. I’m not impressed with your citations from the Rebbe. He has rejected open Pshat in the Gemara as I clearly explained and so I don’t trust a word that he wrote. Checkmate.
To Avira
I appreciate your comment but I really don’t think I said anything that crossed the line, no name-calling, etc. Anyway, what they did post this morning is basically what was rejected last night. <yes, what was rejected-minus everything else.>The point is simple, Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is empowered to change the Torah as he sees fit. Hopefully, n0mesorah will accept that as proof that Chabad stands apart from other Chassidic sects.
To Ysiegel
I understand that you’re trying to defend your Rebbe, but the fact is that no person can challenge an open statement by a Tanna of the Gemara. Let me add the following. The Rebbe said that when Moshiach comes pork will be kosher. I saw that statement in a Geulah pamphlet and then I spoke to a Chabad Rabbi who confirmed it. No human being can change any law of the Torah.
To CR
I’ve sent a number of submissions in the last two days but they haven’t been posted. Instead, you’ve only posted from Lubavichers. Seems unfair. Especially since I’m responding to challenges.
Posta have been both deleted and approved from “both sides of the aisle”. Nasty personal attacks and overall mean-spirited personal comments are deleted. This is just a partial list of suggestions.
To ujm
You’re obsessed with collecting names of Rabbis who criticized Chabad. Well, n0mesorah already gave you Menashe Klein and Rabbi Belsky. I’ll add Rav Aharon Feldman if it makes you happy.To n0mesorah
Since Lubavichers never answer any of my questions maybe you’d like to take a stab at this one, “How could the Rebbe contradict an explicit statement in the Gemara, to wit, only one out of 300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach?” According to the Rebbe all Jews, including Bernie Sanders, Woody Allen and the like will be redeemed.
To Seichel83
Dr. Berger wrote in his book that eight prominent Chabad Rabbis averred that the Rebbe was “G-d clothed in human form.” A few years ago, David Lichtenstein, a Chabad lover, interviewed Dr. Berger on his radio show. Lichtenstein didn’t challenge Dr. Berger’s contention, rather he said that you can’t judge the entire movement because of a few nut job Rabbis. I don’t know what percentage of Chabad believes this insanity but don’t try denying that it doesn’t exist. By the way Edited
To ujm
I have no intention of providing you with any list of anti-Chabad Rabbis because you’ll dismiss them like you wrote off Rabbi Dr. David Berger.
To n0mesorah
I think we should just agree to disagree because I don’t think we’re that far apart. You consider Chabad a crazy, Chassidic sect like other crazy, Chassidic sects, but I think that they’ve crossed the line to where they’ve made their Rebbe into a god. One other point that no one has brought up. There are serious questions with regard to Rabbi Schneersohn himself. He espoused views that contradict the Gemara. For example, he said that every Jew will be redeemed by Moshiach, with no exception, while the Gemara in Sanhedrin 111a states that only 0ne of 300,000 will be redeemed.
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To ujm
What’s your fascination with collecting names of anti Chabad Rabbis. No one can deny that there are many in that corner just as no one can deny that many Rabbis are on Chabad’s side. This venue allows for discussion of issues, but Lubavichers recognize that they can’t answer any of the challenges raised against them so they try to change or muddle the subject.
To n0mesorah
You assert that the OU screening Chabad shochtim is a business decision. That’s illogical. The OU would potentially be opening itself up to discrimination lawsuits if it didn’t have valid reason to perform such vetting.To Nomesorah
Thanks for clarifying your position and I’ll gladly respond. You’re arguing that Lubavichers are like all other Chassidim in that they attribute godlike qualities to their Rebbe. That’s disingenuous. No Chassidic sect claims that their Rebbe is Moshiach, that their Rebbe is/was a Novi, that their Rebbe is still alive despite the fact that he was interred almost thirty years ago. As for why we should be troubled by their questionable beliefs and practices that’s simple. They proselytize. The Rabbi of the YI in my community is Chabad. I attended that shul about twenty years ago. This Rabbi constantly mocked non-Chabad Rabbis including the Chafetz Chaim, Vilna Gaon, and Rav Aharon Kotler. I will quote that Rabbi, “The Rebbe is the reason the world was created.” Now I know that Nomesorah will posit that he’s a lone wolf, but that’s nonsense. Rabbi Butman clearly articulated the belief in some, but not all Chabad circles, “When the Besht arrived, Gemara-based Judaism became null and void, and when the Baal Hatanya arrived all other Chassidim became irrelevant. Houston we have a problem no we have two problems. The second is that someone like you who’s clearly bright can’t or doesn’t want to accept the obvious truth. It seems that you’re simply a contrarian.
To UJM
Rav Shach and Dr. Berger said this clearly. There are many Rabbis and laymen who agree with their positions. There’s no need to name them.To Nomesorah
I’m glad you clarified that you’re not Chabad, As for your insinuation that I am equating Chabad with Christianity. I never made such a statement. What I did say is that Lubavichers treat the Rebbe like a god. They attribute powers to him as if he’s different than anyone who’s ever lived. I don’t think that any rational person would challenge that position.
Okay, now I have my answer. Nomesorah can’t be Chabad because no Lubavicher will ever say anything positive about Rav Shach, much less say that he was superior to the Rebbe in any way. I’m still confused, however by Nomesorah’s earlier post in which he states that heretical statements do not affect a person’s religious status.
To Nomesorah
I’m confused. You told Sechel that you’re not convinced that the Rebbe is Moshiach and then added that you wouldn’t debate a Chabadsker online vis a vis Chassidus and Kabbalah. This would imply that you’re not Lubavitch. On the other hand, you vehemently reject the implications that Chabad is akin to Christianity. This is generally the position of a Lubavicher. Would you be kind enough to clarify who and what you stand for? If you’re just a contrarian then that’s okay, as that forces people to make clear-cut and accurate statements. By the way point number two to Seichel was spot on. When Moshiach actually comes there will be a sea change in the world. Everyone will be aware of it. Seichel posits that there’s a secret society and they alone know that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Where does that come from?
To Menachem Shmei
This is a followup to what I wrote earlier this morning. You described yourself in the initial posting as ignorant and closed minded. In a sense, all people are ignorant to some degree and that’s why Avos teaches that we should be willing to learn from everyone. On the other hand, you call yourself close minded which means that you won’t listen to nor accept anything that goes against your previously held convictions. How do you resolve this contradiction? To put it another way, what do you hope to gain from this thread if you’re not interested in the positions of the anti Lubavichers?
To Menachem Shmei
Based on your postings, I’d consider you a Chabad moderate as compared, at least, to someone like sechel83. Since you started this thread I assume you’re still following it. I therefore ask you or any other Lubaviuchers who consider themselves reasonable to comment on Sechel’s explanation of why he believes that the Rebbe “IS” Moshiach.
It’s amazing. After reading any of Nomesorah’s posts, I don’t have the slightest idea of what he’s trying to say. And that’s probably exactly what he wants. I sense that he’s intelligent and realizes that Chabad is a lost cause and so his only hope is to obfuscate the readership.
To Seichel83
We’re still waiting for your answer. You acknowledged in a different thread that Rambam’s criteria for Moshiach have not been met. How then can Lubavichers declare that the Rebbe is Moshiach?
To Seichel83
So you agree that the Rebbe can make a mistake. Great, we’re getting somewhere. Now you wrote in a different thread that if a Misnaged does all the things that Moshiach is supposed to do, you’ll accept him. This implies that these things haven’t yet occurred. This said, how can some of your fellow Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is already Moshiach while others believe it’s only a matter of time? The only reason for these beliefs is that the Rebbe said or hinted that he’s Moshiach. But you just admitted that the Rebbe could be wrong. So combining the Rebbe’s fallibility with the “FACT” that the Rambam’s criteria haven’t been met eliminates the suggestion that the Rebbe “IS” Moshiach. That he could come from the dead, perhaps, but that’s a different subject.
To Seichel83
“I will definitely accept the biggest Misnaged as Moshiach if he does all the things that Rambam says Moshiach will do.” The Diyuk is that you and your fellow Lubavichers have already accepted the Rebbe as Moshiach even though he hasn’t done anything that Rambam said he would do.
To No Mesorah
“And the Rambam clearly places all these heretics within the fold.”
What is that supposed to mean? That Rambam would consider a Jew for J in the fold of Judaism if his mother was actually Jewish? That’s not exactly a Chiddush. The problem is that such a belief likely(assuming he’s not a Tinok Shenishba) costs one his Cheilek in Olam Habo.To Nomesora
Let’s get the facts straight. Coffee addict asked if Lubavichers think the Rebbe is/was perfect and if Moshiach will be perfect. The implication of perfection is that he will be unlike any human who has ever lived, because, as 2scents said(according to Rabbi Miller) even Moshe Rabbeinu “sinned.” I then told Coffee addict that no Lubavicher will answer his question and, true to form, Seichel83 changed the narrative by referring to the Rebbe as a Tzaddik Gomur which has nothing to do with infallibility. So feel free to dodge any question you want, but at 120 you’ll have to answer them. Finally, mddi is absolutely correct, beliefs that are antithetical to the Torah place one outside the realm of Torah Judaism.
To seichel83
Coffee addict asked if the Rebbe and/or Moshiach will be perfect. Perfect means that they never do or say anything wrong. This is what L’Havdil the Christians say about Yoshka. Perfect means that whatever the Rebbe said cannot be wrong or questioned. To call him a Tzaddik Gomur evades the question because it doesn’t address whether said person is infallible. Again a classic case of Chabad dodging the subject. One more point. Don’t you know the spelling rule that it’s “i” before “e” except after “C”?
To coffee addict
First let me say to you and 2scents, I’m really jealous of your cool handles. Just kidding. To your point. There’s a Klal Godol, no Lubavicher will ever respond to any question raised by someone they perceive as an opponent(snag.) I learned that when I posted on VIN. They assume we’re trying to trap them(in a sense we are, ie we want them to admit that their theology is a lie.) They feel that the safest play is to ignore the questions and they’ll disappear.2scents,
I’m quite familiar with Rabbi Miller as I spent 30 years learning with his Talmid Muvhak. Rabbi Miller was a fan of the Rebbe and Chabad but if he fully understood both the individual and his followers I’m sure he would have changed his position.
To 2scents
Thanks for that tidbit. I’m quite familiar with Rabbi Miller’s teachings as I spent thirty years in the yeshiva of his Talmud muvhak. It’s interesting that Rabbi Miller was a fan of Chabad and the Rebbe but I think he wasn’t aware of their more outlandish doctrines.To 2scents
I am new to the CR(about two weeks) so I wasn’t familiar with your handle. I greatly appreciate your rational approach to the subject.To Neville
I think I’m going to follow your lead. You’re absolutely right that it’s checkmate because every Lubavicher believes that the Rebbe is, or will be Moshiach, and they do so based on no real evidence.
To the entire group.
Pardon my impertinence, but at the end of the day who cares what really happened in that story? Let it be that the Lubavichers involved were totally in the right and they were accosted by vicious Satmar hooligans. So what does that have to do with this thread which is aiming to determine if Chabad promotes a theology that’s alien to Torah true Judaism? In fact, Lubavichers love to change the discussion from Meshichism to any other subject, especially one in which they look like the good guys and Satmar the crazies.
To ujm.
Then, by all means, explain it to me, since he obviously refuses to do so.
To Shalom-al-Israel
I’ve found nothing objectionable in anything square root said. Present examples instead of making a blanket, random accusation. If a line was crossed I’ll acknowledge it.
To Menachem Shmei. I asked you to clarify what you meant by Israeli Lubavichers are extremists. You answered that you were clear enough in earlier posts. Obviously, I must lack reading comprehension skills because I didn’t find your explanation. Menachem painted himself into a corner by criticizing a segment of Chabad and now he doesn’t know how to fight his way out. As for seichel 83, don’t either bother trying to answer my question because you have the writing, spelling, and logical skills of a four-year-old. It’s so sad. Menachem Shmei said he wanted to have an honest, open discussion with non-Lubavichers. Now we understand what he means by honest and open.
The only certainty is that if he’s not the Rebbe, Chabad won’t accept him.
Thanks for the clarification Avira. Most of what I know about Chabad is experiential. I live in an area where many Chabad rabbis function and so I study(spy on) them. I appreciate someone like yourself who likely has more factual knowledge on the subject. I think these two approaches complement each other quite nicely. BTW, Seichel 83 and Menachem Shmei are still on the clock, but I doubt they’ll answer my questions. I know how to checkmate Lubavichers. I do it all the time in my neighborhood. Surprisingly, I get along quite well with them, except for one who’s particularly militant against mainstream Orthodoxy.
To Jude
I didn’t say that Lubavich was the first to do Kiruv. I simply asked Neville CB to elaborate on his statement that Kiruv originated from the Yeshivah world. As for your statement that Chabad disavows those BT’s who choose mainstream Judaism you’re absolutely right as this story will demonstrate. About ten years ago an old man in the shul I was attending passed away on a Friday. On Shabbos, I saw a nonobservant friend talking on the phone with the deceased’s daughter helping her make the funeral arrangements. Sunday night I came to that Shul and was told that I missed a beautiful service since the deceased’s grandson spoke and he was a Rabbi. I was baffled so I spoke to the Shul’s Chabad Rabbi. He explained that the Niftar had two daughters, one the Mechallel Shabbos, and the other who had become frum through Chabad. The Chabad couple sent their son to YU where he got Smicha. I told the Rabbi how wonderful that was and he gave me a dirty look and then he mumbled something under his breath. I immediately understood his intent. As far as he was concerned the Chabad couple should sit shivah for their son for abandoning their faith.
To Menachem Shmei
You stated at the outset of this thread that you want to engage in an honest, open dialogue with anti-Lubavichers. If that’s so, please clarify what you meant when you said that Israeli Lubavichers, as compared to their American counterparts, are extremists.
To Neville Chaim Berlin
You stated that the BT movement came out of the Yeshiva world. Would you be so kind as to elucidate? I was in a Young Israel some years back that was headed by a Chabad Rabbi. He said the following, “The Rebbe invented Kiruv. When he started all the Rosh Yeshivos attacked him saying it was Bitul Torah. But when they saw he was successful they tried to copy him.”
To Menachem Shmei
“I’ve personally never had an honest discussion with the more extreme Lubavichers since they’re all Israelis and many don’t have much of a head on their shoulders etc.”
If I understand you correctly it’s the Israeli Lubavichers who are extremists, while the American branch is normal. This said, you claim that the American Lubavichers who “see” the Rebbe in 770 also visit the Ohel? Please explain that inconsistency, and elucidate what makes Israeli Lubavichers crazy, at least in your opinion.To Seichel 83
“My opinion is I have my Rebbe and I accept him 100%.” So in other words, you have no opinion of your own. That would explain why Lubavichers can’t come to a consensus on some rather basic questions for example is the Rebbe alive or dead? Obviously, reading the Igros doesn’t provide all the answers.