qwerty613

To Always
I’d just make one point. My Rov didn’t give me a heter. What he said is that there’s no problem at all because I basically just watch sports. But if you don’t have a TV keep it that way. It can be addictive. But the CR can also be addictive.

To Menachem
As I’ve clearly articulated, I will not get involved in any discussion about a dead Jew being god. I think you’re a dec
ent fellow so Hashem should have Rachmanus on you.

To Avira

I’d just make one slight but important correction to what you wrote morning. You said that the East Side is a community in which the MO’s associate with Torah Jews becuse of tje type of Rabbonim who are there. The Diyuk of your statement is that the MO’s arent Torah Jews. There are two types of MO’s in the neighborhood. Some are like me, fully observant the whole 9 yards ok take off a few inches for having a TV. Then there are MO’swho are Karov to irreligious. The Rabbonim get along with everyone even the open Mechallels but as for someone like me they treat us as equals. We don’t advocate hating Jews as you feiner Yidden do. Think about it. Of course you won’t.

To n0mesorah

I think Moshiach must be near because you just made a reasonable comment. There’s absolutely no reason to argue about this subject as you said.

To ARSo

As Rabbi Shmei noted, I do have an excellent relationship with my Rabbonim(LES and Brooklyn.) I definitely show them respect, because they’re Talmidei Chachamim and I’m not(not even close), but they also value my opinion. I write a weekly Dvar Torah which is very well accepted because I write well but also because I know how to use my Treif(rock music and sports) influences to flavor my work. I’m quite aware that I’m unconventional but I treat Yiddeishkeit with the utmost gravity. By the way, you never explained how you knew about my Hey Jude remark since that post wasn’t printed. My hunch is that you’re one of the moderators, but that’s just a guess. Here’s my new catchphrase, “You’re on the clock.” I think they used that during the Bobby Fischer Boris Spassky match.

To Avira

The Rov who said it’s alright for me to watch TV is a respected .ember of the Feinstein family. I’m not at liberty to give any more information. He knows me for almost 60 years. He saw my transformation from basic nothingness religiously to who I am today. Why are you so obstinate? You’ve convinced yourself that you’re saving me, but the truth is that you can’t deal with the thought that a legitimate Torah Jew can watch TV. My assumption is that it violates Rabbi Miller’s doctrine.

To Avira
As you correctly stated the East Side has both a Yeshivish and modern element. The Yeshivish faction certainly doesn’t watch TV, but the modern does.And you know what? We all get along and respect each other. As for your suggestion that R Dovid was too humble to sign that’s a Doche answer and you know it. Rav .osne signed the original Kol Koreh and we’ll both agree that he was exceedingly humble.

To ARSo

Rav Reuvein and I used to live on the same building, before he moved to SI. I consider him a friend as well as a Rov because he’s a beautiful person. Let me share an incident. Rav Reuvein used to daven at the 7,am minyan on Shabbos at the Bialystoker. I was coming downstairs to go to shul and he was ready to walk upstairs.He saw a mechallel Shabbos woman about to take the elevator. Did he give her Mussar? Did he shun her? No they
spoke cordially to each other for about five minutes. I know you guys feel the need to impose your Flatbush elitist attitude on me, but my approach to Yiddishkeit is within the bounds of Halacha. On the other hand you’ll have to answer to Hashem for the lies you invented when you tried to prove I’m a goy for having a TV. Remember Eilu VEilu Divrei Elokim Dude.

To ujm

Since you’re still trying to prove that any Jew with a TV is an atheist I decided to read your posting in 2008 on the subject. You presented a proclamation signed by many Choshuv Rabbonim. One name that didn’t appear is that of Rav Dovid Feinstein.Need I remind you that I’m a Lower East Sider and I follow his authority. As I said, by all means you should follow your Gedolim, but the question of TV is not black and white as it’s opponents would like to believe. Also let make it clear, the Feinsteins don’t have TV’s, but many east siders do. I’ll just add one point to the discussion. I see that there’s an addiction problem in the frum world with regard to viewing inappropriate materials. Regular TV(ie not cable) isn’t the cause of this problem.

To Coffee Addict

What a coward. Using a reference that’s unfamiliar to me as an insult so that I can’t respond. You should know by now that I can take anything you dish out and give it back in spades. You and the other supposedly religious Jews had no shortage of Issurei Doraysa to accuse me of when I said I watched TV. Of call the charges were baseless. But now I’ll tell you what you’re guilty of. Sinas Chinam. Hating another Jew in your heart. Insulting a Ben Torah. Insulting an orphan I could go on. The difference between my claims and yours is that mine are all absolutely ironclad. And just to add to your perfidy, you attack me on RC Elul. I’ll let Hashem checkmate you. You’re a bigger atheist than the Lubavichers
At least they believe in god. Only problem is that their god is dead.

To n0mesorah

I see. So what you’re saying is that my belief in one, all knowing and all powerful G-d is irrational. But to believe, as Chabad does, that a human being is god, or to believe in polytheism is rational. Maybe you’ve been studying too much Kabbalah or maybe you just enjoy being an annoying fool. Come on dude even your Rebbe, Menachem Shmei, conceded to my superiority. Checkmate and peace out.

To the group
All rst
Rabbi Menachem Shmei is correct that it takes me a very short time to write these posts and I’ll tell you why. First, writing is my avocation and, so Baruch Hashem it comes very easy to me. Second, and this is more important. Unlike most of the participants my message is consistent. The only reason I spend (waste) my time writing is to expose the flaws in Chabad. It’s amazing that I can’t even tell which side half the posters are on.One post they’re anti Chabad Then they do a 180. Then they decide to go after me. As for this last statement I’ll just make one comment. Rather than spending so much time trying to prove that I’m a goy or trying to teach me how to be a better Jew, you guys should spend time looking at yourselves. The Gemara says that Hashem’s seal is Emes. So many in the group have tried so hard to demonize me, but no has accused me of lying. But quite a number of the posters have lied through their teeth in the hope that they can win the debate. Life for a Jew is about currying Hashem’s favor. Remember it’s Elul.

To Litvishe Fellow

Thanks for the support. This thread has run for almost two months. The reason it’s taking so long is because the posters speak out of three sides of their mouth. The case against Chabad is simple. As Litvishe Fellow said calling the Rebbe Moshiach Moshiach, and even moreso calling him god, is not up for discussion. It’s no different than debating with Christians. Look it’s a free country. If the Lubavichers want to continue worshipping the Rebbe that’s their right but we have to make it clear that despite the many good things that Chabad does this is a “One G-d world.”

To the group

I think I should make another revelation. About thirty years ago I was a frequent contributor to the Jewish Press. One day I ran into a friend and he told me that I was the single most hated person in Brooklyn. Judging from this thread it’s obvious that I have this effect on people. That’s what happens when you tell the truth.

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

I owe you an apology. You never said that the Rebbe is god. No what you actually said is that the Rebbe said he’s god. But you reject that out of hand. So Mazel Tov you finally accept what I’ve been saying that the Rebbe isn’t god and isn’t Moshiach. See how easy that was. Checkmate on the Rebbe. By

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

When I joined this discussion you made a distinction between crazy(Israeli) Lubavichers and normal (American) Lubavichers. I pressed you to explain what made the former crazy and you refused to answer. Instead you told me to look at your previous postings. This time I’ll return the favor and tell you to look at how many times you asserted that the Rebbe is god.

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

I think I’ve made my position quite clear but I’ll repeat it. I do not engage in discussion with anyone who asserts that a human is god. Chazal tell us that a judge who judges properly is a partner with Hashem in creation. Since you’re such a Maamin in these statements then you must believe that all honest judges throughout history worked in tandem 5783(or ~15 billion years ago remember I’m MO) with G-d. That would really be polytheism. How do I, a Torah Jew, understand this Chazal? We say in the davening that each day Hashem recreates the world and so an honest judge is a partner with Hashem because he acts according to Hashem’s wishes. This is a rational approach which does not tamper with the fundamental beliefs of Yiddishkeit. So for the last time don’t give me any more of your Christian proofs. I’m not buying it. Checkmate. And this time it’s final.

To ARSo

Yes you got it. I grew up minimally religious. Only went to shul on Shabbos mornings. At that time my life revolved around sports and music. At the age of thirty I began a journey towards legitimate Torah Judaism. For several years I went sans TV thinking that I had to exorcise my previous influences. Over time I found that I can still follow sports, listen to music yet still spend most of my time learning. I am not suggesting that this is the ideal. For those who want to follow the Chareidi model I say Kol Hakovod. Unfortunately a number of posters are so mean spirited that they refuse to read what I’m saying. I accept every expression of legitimate Torah Judaism. Chabad, of course, is excluded because, as Menachem Shmei has told us, they believe the Rebbe is god.

To Yserbius

Don’t waste your time asking Shmei any questions. He started this thread by stating that he wants to have an open exchange with Torah Jews, but in fact, in the last few days he’s demonstrated that his real goal is to convince us of his belief that the Rebbe is god.

To Lostspark

If Moshiach rules that TV is Assur, I’ll immediately throw mine out. You’re trying to portray me as obsessed with the boob tube. As I mentioned last week, I learn 7 hours a day and only watch about an hour. You should ask yourself why you’re so troubled by the fact that I have a TV. My suspicion is that you(and Coffee Addict) have been brainwashed into believing that anyone who watches TV, is a Kofer ain Lo Chelek Olam Habo. That we eat pork, cheat on our wives, what have you. It’s eating you up because you realize that I’m nothing like what you’d like to believe. Checkmate.

To 2scents
Glad you asked and I’m happy to answer. I entered the fray about 3 weeks ago. I immediately sized up Rabbi Menachem Shmei and nailed him with an unassailable argument against his Did you really think of this post as “civil responses”?

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
Boy do I get to you. Checkmate. Use

Hey Jude
You don’t write that often but when you do you really nail it. The Mishna on Avos warns Chachom to be careful with their words. Had the Rebbe issued clearcut statements this mess would have been avoided, but he chose not to do so.

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

You make a good point, to wit, how can Rabbi Schachter know to whom Lubavichers daven? The answer is simple. Because of his Talmudic genius, he has Ruach Hakodesh and Malachim revealed this information to him. Similarly, you can ask how Rav Shach knew what was going on in Brooklyn. So we know that he was the Godol Hador which means he was the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador and so he had the same level of Nevuah as Moshe and this allowed him to see what the Rebbe was doing.If you think that’s ridiculous then understand what Jews think when Lubavichers claim that the Rebbe is god. Checkmate.

edited

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

Before we began this thread I had no idea that the idea of the Rebbe as god clothed in human form came from the Rebbe himself. All I knew about this is that Rabbi Dr. Berger said that eight Rabbis from Oholei Torah said this. The point is that you can’t accuse me of lying since it was Sechel83 who introduced the Sicha. I have never looked at any of the Rebbe’s Sichos and I plan to keep it that way. Sechel83 said that the Rebbe called himself god clothed in human form. The anti Chabad side, not just me, called this Avoda Zarah. Sechel83 realized that heade a mistake and denied saying this. That’s the truth edited

To Sechel83

So now you’re backing off from your previous statement that the Rebbe himself stated that he’s god clothed in human form and all the Gedolim of that time, including Rav Moshe accepted this. Instead you’re saying that no Lubavicher holds like this and no Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe. Instead you’re blaming “some professor” for all the bad press Chabad receives. Let’s take a closer look at that “professor”. He is Rabbi Dr. David Berger. He has Semicha from YU where he graduated as valedictorian. Rabbi Dr. Berger named 8 senior Rabbis from the vaunted Oholei Torah who claimed that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form. Had he been lying he would have been sued for millions. As for your contention that no Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe, Rav Hershel Schachter, one of the world’s most respected Roshe Yeshivos stated on Dovid Lichtenstein radio program that many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of to Hashem and this is Avoda Zarah. Now I’ll ask you this, “Since you’ve backed off from your previous statements do you also agree that the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach?”

To the group
I think that n0mesorah is right that this thread, which has been quite extraordinary has run it’s course and so it would seem that closing remarks are called for. On the Chabad side, Sechel83 articulated their view. The Rebbe, in 1962, declared that he is G-d clothed in human form. Neither Rav Moshe nor any of the other Gedolim protested and therefore we can conclude that they all agreed that the Rebbe was god. Everything was fine until that Berger fellow came along. On the anti Chabad side well nothing need be said.

To Sechel83

While some or all of the participants aren’t members of the qwerty 613 fan club no one has questioned my writing ability. This said I think my last post was crystal clear. If the Lubavicher Rebbe actually stated, as you claim, that he is G-d clothed in human form then he is a self made Avoda Zarah. Moreover I will guarantee that Rav Moshe never heard of any such pronouncement or he would have put him in Cherem and ruled that Lubavichers can not be included in a minyan etc. To make it clearer I don’t believe the Rebbe ever said this and if he did Rav Moshe never heard it. Don’t you dare suggest that Rav Moshe would allow such heresy and idolatry.

To mdd1

The quote you intended was, “Denial is not a river in Egypt.” I don’t understand how you can have the nerve to call out Avira when you lack the intellectual honesty to admit that you mistakenly criticized me. Clearly, you can’t accept Mussar so you prove that Rabbi’s point that people shouldn’t be chastised.

To the group

As promised I spoke to someone who is completely reliable and he told me that watching TV is no worse than any other activity in which your eyes might be exposed to inappropriate material. I told him that basically I restricted my watching to sports and he said it’s OK. Obviously, I can’t reveal his name but he is an enormous Talmid Chacham. For the sake of honesty I will admit that the other side definitely has upon whom to rely. Yes the Gedolim like Rav Moshe and many others were totally against it,(unlike mdd1 I admit that I was wrong for implying that this was solely a Rabbi Miller crusade) but the person I asked is an unimpeachable source. Bottom line, you guys should continue to abstain, but I’ll continue to ask in accord with my Rabbonim who perhaps, are more Meikel.

To Sechel83

You’re writing isn’t clear, but I think you’re saying the following, “The Rebbe stated that he was G-d clothed in human form(or something equivalent) and Rav Moshe endorsed this.” If I understand you correctly then you are completely out of your mind. As I’ve told the group I’m an East Sider who has been close to the Feinsteins for 60 years. They are the most grounded, logical people anyone could imagine. If Rav Moshe would have heard such heresy, he would have immediately ruled that no lUbavicher can be included in a Minyan. This is way beyond even my conception of Chabad.

To the group

I just read an incredible article. It’s in the English Forward June 2022. A Chabad Rabbinical student, Yossi Newfield, was studying for his semicha in Melbourne and his high school Gemara Rebbi at Oholei Torah came to give a lecture. Surprisingly, the entire class was devoted to explaining why the Rebbe couldn’t be Moshiach, since this would violate Rambam’s dicta on the subject(as I’ve been saying since I joined this thread.) Rabbi Newfield said that his classmates ignored what they heard, but he knew it was the truth and abandoned Chabad(but remained frum). Apparently, there is hope that at least some of these Lubavichers can be saved, but Rabbi Newfield admitted it wasn’t easy making the break.