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To Any
If you want to limit this discussion to the question of whether Moshiach can come from the dead then I would agree that it’s possible. I would add, however, that it’s quite unlikely since the Chofetz Chaim Paskened otherwise. This said there are a couple of problems to address. First, a significant percentage of Lubavichers say that the Rebbe is Moshiach. We therefore have an intrinsic contradiction. Second, if you’ll say that those who proclaim that the Rebbe is Moshiach are wrong then you must explain why Lubavichers, including yourself, are convinced that it’s the Rebbe who will have a second coming. If neither question is answered then this thread serves no purpose.
To mdd1
I understand how you feel but the moderators want to allow all sides to express their views. The Lubavichers lie to protect their idol tbe Rebbe, nom does so to protect his Getchka which is himself.
To yankel berel
You’re a consistent voice of reason and truth. On a personal note you stood up for me when I was bei g attacked. Hashem should reward you handsomely.
To the group
I’d like to introduce somethimg that hasn’t been discussed AFAIK. That would be the claim that the Baal Hatanya was a Neshama Chadasha, the first in 2000 years. Posters on both sidez of the aie can weigh in. I’m uninformed about this subject.
To the group
To those who are Hebraically challenged, I’ll give you a short synopsis, “the king is in the field.”To n0mesorah
Hashem is going to have a hard time judging you because you’re way to smart for Him. Whichever category He puts you in you’ll talk your way out of it. Ueah believe that and the one about the Rebbe being god.To the Group
I don’t understand why my davening in a Chabad shul is causing such an uproar. It’s no different than davening in any other shul. You know in one way it is different. Everyone is nice to each other. And that’s why I like it. Is that so hard to understand? I’ve been friends with the Rabbis for about 20 years.
I’m not your classic hater. I’m simply expressing my opinion that certain Chabad beliefs are heretical.To Lostspark
You obviously expended a lot of time and effort on your latest post. The bottom line is that you want me to leave the thread. As the Yomim Noraim approach you should ask yourself why you’re so afraid of me. I think we both know the answer.
To Always Ask
When I said that one should learn Gemara to train himself to be truthful, it was just my perception. As I’ve said my Torah knowledge is limited so I didn’r know that I was Michavin to the Maharal. Thanks for that info. And it’s a point that can’t be overstated. There are people in this thread who use various methods of deception to “win” the day. It makes no sense to me Of course Avira is also correct that learimg Gemara connects us to Hashem’s wisdom.
To CS
So your Moshiach Rebbe explained to you how the Rebbe is still alive but you can’t tell anyone what he said because those snags are so mean spirited. In any case I see that you had a Rebbe whose job it was to convince you that the Rebbe was Moshiach. Was that class before or after the one in which they taugjt you tjay the Rebbe is god?To n0mesorah
About 30 years ago a friend and colleague who had recently become observant asked me why we ahould spend so much time learning Gemara. He added that the Gemara had no practical relevance in his life. I couldn’t answer him at the time. As I’ve progressed inmy learning I realized the answer. Studying Gemara is a tool to train one in acquiring a sense of truth. N0m you’ve demonsrated throughout this thread that truth is not a valued trait for you and thetefore it makes sense that you would belittle Torah study. 1
To n0mesorah
You claim that Chabad doesn’t try to deify the Rebbe. Then explain why a significant part of our discussion has been whether or not the Rebbe is god. Earth to n0mesorah, it’s the Lubavichers who say he’s god and no other group has or would ever suggest anything so insane. You also argue that if there’s a plan there must be a planner. True but plans are fluid. The Rebbe may have seen himself as Moshiach and assumed that his coronation would take place while he was alive. When he died those who took charge adapted the plan to fit the reality and voila we got Moshiach from the dead.
To CS
Yes I’d like to hear your spin on it. Rational people consider someone alive or dead based on the time honored tradition of vital signs. Of course Lubavichers who are steeped in Kabbalah don’t follow such antiquated methods and therefore they can convince themselves that the Rebbe is still alive. Of course if we follow that logic then a whole lot of other people are also alive. If you want to continue living in your fantasy world I’m not going to try to stop you. It’s a free country.
To n0mesorah
I don’t know when Chabad decided to separate itself from mainstream Jewry but it’s quite clear to any unbiased observer that Lubavitchers consider themselves Chabad rather than Jews. Some people believe that this aberration began with the Rebbe’s passing. To the other extreme, I’ve spoken to individuals who argue quite convincingly that Lubavitch has gone its own way since the Baal Hatanya’s passing. I’m not sufficiently schooled in the subject to make a conclusive statement. Trying to be a wise guy and mentioning Moshe Rabbeinu et al is not going to change the facts. You’ve decided to take a contrarian view on this subject, so you’re blind to the truth that Lubavichers do not represent normative Judaism. We do not deify our Rabbinic leaders.
To mdd1
You’re absolutely right. Even if there was a way to explain this on some esoteric level, it can never be allowed to become part of a Lubavitcher’s everyday speech as if it’s a normative position.
To CS
I would hope you’re right but I highly doubt it. The belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach is deeply ingrained and rarely does logic supersede emotion. Let me give you an illustration. Several months ago I was arguing on another site with a Lubavitcher who was convinced that the Rebbe was Moshiach. I told him that the Chofetz Chaim Paskened that Moshiach won’t come from the dead. At first, he fought me on this point but he ultimately conceded that I was right. Did he then admit that the Rebbe can’t be Moshiach? Of course not. Instead he said the following, “The Rebbe became Moshiach while he was still alive and so it doesn’t contradict Chofetz Chaim and he’ll return to finish the job.” Please don’t try to sell me on the notion that logic will prevail in Crown Heights.
To the group
I asked CS a simple question, “Who was the Moshe of the previous generation?” To date I’ve received no answer. So I’ll answer for him. It was the Rayatz and before him the Rashab backto the Besht. As for the generations that preceded the Besht, Chabad treats them like Chazal treat the generatio s which preceded Avraham, totally irrelevant. To that point on Sukkos when mainstream Jewry pays homage to the 7 Ushpizin Chabad celebrates its 9 Ushpizin.This is a part of a carefully constructed plan to create a new religion within Judaism which they hope will replace Judaism.And that’s why they invented all their holidays. The truth is obvious for anyone who wants to see.
To yankel berel
Menachem shmei claims that “he” holds that many Tzaddimim after Malachi etc had Nevuah. No he doesn’t. What he means is that the Rebbe said this and since every word the Rebbe spoke was Torah Misinai Menachem accepts it. Just as Menachem accepts that all Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach even though this contradicts the Gemara. The Rebbe successfully took away the free will of his Chassidim by forcing them to accept his every word as Nevuah.
To CS
“Every generation has aoshe Rabbeinu.”
Who was Moshe Rabbeinu in the. Dor before the Rebbe? As if we don’t know your answer.To ARSo
Thamks for backing me up. CS thinks I should dan cunin lkaf zchus. Based on what? He hasn’t sacrificed Korbonos for the Rebbe. As for your comment about associating with Lubavichers. I think I can deal with them and not be converted.To CS
So now you’ve clarified what you want us gullible snags to believe what cunin meant. Fine. But even if we accept your premise, why should the Rebbe be the person chosen by Hashem to represent Him not only while he was alive but even after he was dead? He was only the Tzaddik hador according to Chabad? You know the deal. Checkmate.
To Avirah
Thank you for weighing in on cunin’s statement. Despite what CS would like us to believe cunin meant exactly what he said.
To CS
“Cunin lived in a different era.* Would that be in the time pf the Besht? Earth to CS. He’s still alive. As for my state.ent that Mosbiach will rule rhe world. In a sense thst will be true. He will likely forge peace alliances with all the world’s powers lile Shlpmo Hamelech.Of course, that’s only one possibilty..To yankel berel
My apologies. I thought everyone was familiar with the KISS method. It stands for “keep it simple stupid.” Too many of the posters get bogged down arguimg Pshatim in Tanya and the like. This is irrelevant. Lubavichers posit that the Rebbe is god. Nothing .ore need be said.
To ARSo
You’re making two mistakes. First, you assume that all Lubavichers are the same which is that they’re trying to convert every Jew to Chabad. Second, based on that misconception, you accuse the Rabbis of that shul of missionizong. That’s patently false.The only thing they do to that end is simg Yechi after Kabbolos Shabbos on Friday night.To CS
You apparently misunderstood my question, so I’ll repeat it. If you challenged me for sayi g that Moshiach will run the world do you also challenge cunin for saying that the Rebbe runs the world?
To yankel berel
Kudos for your straightfoward approach. The KISS method works best in dealing with Chabad.
To 741
The answer to your question is simple. While I and many others believe that Chabad is on an AZ trajectory, it is not actually AZ until an official Psak is declared. Therefore I have no problem davening in that shul. Moreover, only the Rabbis are Chabad not the congregants. Finally, the Rabbis are lovely people and we like and respect each other despite pir theological differences.
To CS
I don’t know what you’re referring to when you mention obnoxious people. I assume it’s directed at something I said. In any event you’re certainly correct that there are good and bad apples in every bunch. I’ve yried to make it clear that my issues with Chabad theology are not personal and that’s why I can attend a Chabad minyan.
To n0mesorah
Let me explain what I mean by militant Chabad. From my experience, all Lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach, that he’s a Novi and that he runs the world. What makes a Lubavitcher militant, in my mind, is if he has no regard for any non Lubavicher. This Rabbi called Rav Aharon Kotler, “Some Rabbi who opened a little Yeshiva in New Jersey.” About the Chafetz Chaim he said, “Had he been Chabad, he might have been something.” No I don’t mean militant in that he beats people up.
To CS
You’re absolutely correct that Moshiach will not take over from Hashem, the responsibility of running the world. I made an incorrect statement and checked myself. But here’s my question, “‘If you acknowledge that Moshiach will not usurp Hashem as the ruler of the world, why do you have no problem with cunin’s(I’m using a lower case “c” because he demeaned Hashem’s Malchus) statement that the Rebbe has already taken over?
To n0mesorah
It’s not exactly correct that Rav Dovid humbled himself. This is who he was. He didm’t consider himself superior to anyone
And he learned this from his father. Once Rav Moshe was walming to MTJ and he heard a woman call out Mosishie(she was addressing her son who was also going to the Yeshiva). Rav Moshe turned around thinking that the woman was calling himTo CS
You ask why it’s hard to fathom Hashem handing the world’s car keys to the Rebbe. Aftsr all that’s what will happen when Moshiach comes. Yes tjat’s what will happen when Moshiach comes. But tjete are no Moshiach tryouts. Hashem knows who will take the reins. Sometime hopefully in the non too distant future.To Menachem
At the beginning of Dr. Berger’s book he said that he initially had a good impression of Chabad. It was the same with me. A group of Lubavich boys would come to our shul on Simchas Torah to dance with us. They seemed to embody Ahavas Yisroel. Everythi g changed for me in 2003 when I began attending a certain shul whose Rabbi was militaristically Chabad. He would mock Gedolim on a regular basis. I’ll share a quote, “The Rebbe can’t be compared to any Rabbi. He can only be compared to other Neviim.” And I’ll give you another one, “The Rebbe is the reason the world was created.” On top of this I lisrened to Rabbi Butman on Motzi Shabbos and he acted as if non Lubavichers don’t exist. Finally I read Dr. Berger’s book and the story was clear. And it gets clearer and clearer that Chabad is not a valid form of Judaism. Now it’s certainly true that there are nice Lunavichers, juzt as it’s true that there are not nice people in all strains of Judaism. But no group lives by postulates that are anathema to Judaism as does Chabad and that’s why we challenge them.
To CS
“As for Cunin’s statement about the Rebbe running the world. I suplose he mrans as Hashem’s agent.” Nice move CS, mention Hashem and get the snags to sirrender. Here’s the problem. Why does the Rebbe run the world as Hashem’s agent? What makes him special? Because you guys decided that he’s the Nasi hador, the Moshe Rabbeini Hador, and all the other Chabad Bubbe Maasehs. The point is that when you claim that the Rebbe runs the world you’re declating that he’s elevated over everyone else, and mainstream Jewry categorically rejects this.
To Menachem Shmei
Still waiting for your answer. Looks like there’s a checkmate in your near future.
To 2scents
You make a terrific point which I’d like to expand on. In a perfect world both sides would present their argumemts honestly and we ithout rancor. But this site isn’t a perfect world. Many of tje pafticipants lie and/or present opinions as facts. Exacerbating the problem is that when they’re called out, they either deny what they’ve done or avoid the subject. It can be frustrating but most of the posters have been part of this site for years and tbey’re not going to change. I think the moderators have done a great job maintaining some sense of decorum I previously wrote in a different venue and it devolved into cheap name calling. One guy decided I was a Christian missionary who was angry at Chabad for stealing his prospective clients.
To ARSo
I’m specifically referring to Coffee, ujm, and lostspark. Read their posts and the venom comes tjrough. As for others you’re right they simply disagree with my positions. Btw you never provided the Hey Jude posting. Don’t sweat it.
To Menachem Shmei
I’ll repeat my question of the other day. According to the letter ypu provided, the Rebbe seems to be saying that the Nasi Chabad is the unquestioned leader of Chabad, but not all the Jews. However based on my experience all Lubavichers believe that each Nasi Chabad is Nasi for Klal Yisrael. Please clarify.To Menacjem Shmei
Lubavichers have decided that they do not want to be part of normative Judaism and they clearly see Chabad as distinct. Since this is your Mehalech it’s quite obvious that ypu could careess about a Psak accepted by all observant Ashkenazic Jews. This Psak, as every Lubavicher knows, was formulated in response to the Shabbetai Tzvi debacle amd therefore Arizal’s opinion is irrelevant. Moreover your idiotic swipe at Rav Reuvein is a thinly veiled attempt to make it sound like this is a recent Psa
. You know full well that this Psak is 300 yearz old. The point of the Psak is that one may not begin studying Kabbalh until he is fully conversant in Nogleh. If, like Ramchal, that occurs
before reachong 40 tjen he’s the exception. Teenagers in Crown Heights are told toaster Kabbalah. So yes ypur Rabbis are in violation of ignoring the words of the Sages.edited
To n0mesorah
Your latest posting reminds me of an incident that occurred probably a de ade ago. Rabbi Boteach was on Zev Brenner’s program. Someone called challenged him for teaching Torah to a gentile Cory Booker. He tried a few times to change the subject, bit finally he came up with, “It’s only Asur to teach Torah to a goy if you want to convert him.” Boteach has one law, je’s always right. The same for n0mesorah. Thete’s an ironclad Psak against learning Kabbalah which Chabad dismisses and Nom defenfs themby saying Chabad only studies safe Kabbalah. No such distimction exists, but Nom like Boteach can’t accept beimg beatenTo Coffee Addict
“Are you saying that YI was less frum than you twenty years ago?” YI is not monithic. YI on the LES is largely Yeshivish. In the YI of my new neighborhood they’d give weekly aliyahs to two Russians who were married to sbiksas. I know you thi k I’m the biggest goy in the world, but you are sadly mistaken. A few days ago you predicted that I would bow out of the thread. That was wishful thonking. Thi k about it. Witbout me against whom could you direct yoir hatred and disgust?
To Avira
Good response. Lubavichers grasp at straws trying to justify trusti g in the Rebbe rather than Hashem.To n0meslrah
Your compliment remimds me of what the King of Spain said to Ramban. I’ll accept it because a good word from you is rare.
To Yankel Berel
Your last post was fabulous. Obviously it will fall on deaf ears, but you really made it clear that Lubavitchers just change the narrative to fit what they want the outcome to be. Paul Simon said it best, “All lies in jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” Oh no here comes the peanut gallery again. How can you call yourself a Jew? Don’t you know that there was a Kol Koreh signed by 137 Gedolim outlawing rock? On a serious and personal note, I really appreciate your coming to my defense. It was more important for the right wingers in this thread to get me to submit to their pressure tactics than to focus on the real issue, which is exposing Chabad. Obviously, no Lubavitcher in the thread is going to have an immediate epiphany, but the truth ultimately wins out. To that point Rabbi Miller said that if you keep repeating the truth those that fought you will eventually quote you.
To Menachem Shmei
Thanks for the translation. It seems pretty close to what I said in my posting except for one thing. The Rebbe is specifically speaking about the Rayyatz and not all Chabad Nesiim and it seems that he’s saying that the Nasi of Chabad is the unquestioned leader of Chabad but not necessarily of all Jews. My understanding, however, is that all Lubavitchers believe that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of Klal Yisroel. Let me explain how I arrived at that conclusion. About twenty years ago I attended a YI whose Rabbi is Chabad (they hired him because he spoke Russian.) He resented the fact that I was frum (sorry Coffee addict I am generally considered frum) but not Chabad. One day he told me, “For the past 250 years there have only been seven Gedolim, just the seven Chabad Rebbes.” The next day I spoke to another Lubavitch Rabbi who I knew was more moderate and repeated what the first rabbi said. He responded, “What, is he nuts? Rav Moshe wasn’t a Gadol?” I was relieved to hear that, and I started to walk out of his shul when he added, “But we are the Nesius.” I didn’t know what he meant, and I didn’t ask him. After hearing this about the Rebbe’s letter I understood that it’s viewed as a declaration that Chabad is the ruling class of Judaism. I ask the Lubavitchers in the thread to clarify what the Rebbe meant.
To n0mesorah
Yankel Berel is absolutely right, but he wasn’t able to pass through your fine sifter. I’ll present his views in a way that even you won’t be able to challenge them. I heard Rav Reuvein Feinstein speak about 30 years ago and he said the following, “Judaism is very simple. You need to believe in Hashem and learn the basic laws. There’s nothing to it.” So you buy Kosher Tefilin and Mezuzos. Wear Tzitis. Find reliable places to buy Kosher food. Attend shiurim and go to a good Shul(s). That’s what Hashem wants from us. In no way are we enjoined to delve into the esoteric. In fact, in Parshas Nitzavim we’re clearly told that our realm is Nigleh. And after Shabbetai Tzvi, safeguards were instituted to keep the masses from studying such materials, but Chabad ignored all this and decided to go against the norm. It is now reaping what it sowed in violating the edict of our Rabbonim. As for your statement that there was great knowledge of Sisrei Torah thousands of years ago. You’re absolutely right, but we learn from the incident of the Merkavah that even the greatest Tannaim couldn’t handle such mysterious subjects. It was only Rabbi Akiva who was sufficiently grounded in Nigleh who could thrive in both worlds. And the same is true for Rashbi. Yes, we call him the father of Kabbalah, but he’s also found throughout Shas dealing in the most mundane subjects. Rabbi Butman declared on numerous occasions that when Moshiach comes Nigleh will be replaced b y Nister. That’s blatant Kefirah. They will, however, coexist because people will be on a Madreigah which allows them to delve into both realms.
To american yeshivish
Let’s not go overboard. The Rebbe was a supergenius and he had some incredible Torah. On the other hand it seems pretty clear that he did say some unacceptable things.
To mdd1
Exactly. As I’ve stated, when I joined this thread I thougjt it would be the typical Moshiach can come from the dead, no he can’t debate. I had no idea it would it would turn into a discussion as to whether or not the Rebbe is god.
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
I can’t speak for the others, but I don’t know how to read such postings. I learn woth Artscroll. Now since you printed the letter it implies that I didn’t present it accurately. I just repeated what that Rabbi said. If you feel that he made mistake(s) then by all means correct them. I told you I’m not learned.
To Always
A
What does Chabad have to do, in your opinion, to take it beyond the pale?To Always
“Every little idiocy.” Was Christianity a little idiocy?
To Always
By all means take your best shot at me, but at least let me understand your putdown.Yankel Berel
You’re a breath of fresh air for this thread. I’d like to piggy back on to some of your points. Shmuel Butman repeatedly announces on his programs that when Moshiach comes there won’t be any more Shnayim Ochzim Bitalis. Then he adds that tbere will only be the Kabbalistic understanding of the Gemara. Chabad views Nigleh as an enemy that must be eliminated C”V. As for the Rebbe’s popularity, a poster noted that many Gedolim were taken in by Shabbetai Tzvi.
To the groupOn Sunday mornings tha Chabad shul I attend has a breakfast and shiur after davenimg. In the last few months the class consists of reading letters from the Rebbe. In one such letter the Rebbe described the characteristics of a Nasi Chabad, and I’ll quote,”Every Nasi Chabad is a Baal Mofes, and he has Ruach Hakodesh. But the main thing to know is that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi Hador.” In a different thread Sechel83 said he’ll accept the worst Snag as Moshiach if he fulfills Rambam’s criteria. But he’s lying. Every Lubavicher accepts that the Rebbe is a Novi and he declared that Moshiach must be a Lubavicher.
To CS
So every Jew that dies passes thru the Rebbe’s office at 770. I see so now the Rebbe is god and Malach Hamaves.To Menachem Shmei
Your latest commdnt is totally disingenuous. You can’t de y that you amd n0mesorah on numerous occasions told me and others to study the Sugya in question. In contrast, i clearly syated that I’m not endorsing TV watching and I’m not challenging the Psak. All I said is that the Psak is not absolute. As a moshol Rav Moshe was strict regarding Eruvin. Other Poskim allow making an Eruv in se areas that Rav Moshe forbids. I follow Rav Moshe but I would never question someone who takes tbe more lenient view. Checkmate. That one is on the house. Remember it’s not personal. It’s been fun sparrimg with you, necause I like you
Happy new year. Sorry I forgot your RH is in December. ByTo the group
In this thread too many of the participants try to impose their opinions on others. Obviously, we have the anti TV”ers who want me to admit that I’m not a legitimate Jew because I partake of that “vice.” Then we have n0mesorah and Menachem Shmei who want me to study the sugya which “proves” that the Rebbe is god. I harbor no delusions about getting anyone to change. Rather let’s simply accept the fact that the Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is god and so there’s no point in continuing to argue.To Yankel Berel
Thank you so much for your comment. I really don’t understand the vitriol coming from the radical right wingers in this thread. At no time have I suggested that MO is the ideal, nor have I criticized any Kol Koreh against TV. I merely said that my Rov, who’s an enormous Talmid Chacham and he’s a Feinstein said it’s ok for me to watch. He didn’t give me a Heter that would mean it’s Asur but he made an exception. I think these Yeshivish extremists hate me because they’ve been brainwashed into believing that all MO’s are idiotic, Am Aratzim and apikorsim, Ifrighten them because I don’t fit their cookie cutter mold.
To ujm
Read what I wrote to yankel berel for your answer. If you have a problem go toTJ and ask the Feinsteins.
To the Lubavichers
Some years ago Rabbi Daniel Mechanic spoke in our Shul. Je had the opportunity to go to Hollywood and meet Kirk Dou
glas, Jason Alexandwr and Larry David. He told them
the following,”I can’t prove that there’s a G-d but if there is boy will you guys be in trouble.” I can’t prove that the Rebbe isn’t god, but if I’m right, boy are yoj guys in trouble.To ARSo
Could you tell me where the Hey Jude comment can be found? I will certainly admit my error.
To moderator
My apology. I had in mind to tell you not to edit or censor any defamatory remarks made against me, but I didn’t actually send that. My bad.
To Lostspark
I assume that your point is that Rav Moshe knew that the Rebbe declared himself god in 1962 and not only did he say nothing but he endorsed the idea when he accepted the Tefilin. Let me make this perfectly clear. Nobody that I’ve spoken to has ever heard about the 1962 sicha. And that most definitely includes the Feinsteins.I only became aware of it thanks to this thread.