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To CS

It was ARSo not .me who connected Notkin’s interrogation and cwlebrating the 20th of Kislev. I think ot’s just a guess on his part. I’d like, however, to focus on what you said Notkin’s interrogation of the Baal Hatanya. Interrogation? Was Notkin in the Gestapo? If the Alter Rebbe was uncomfortable he could have just walked out. This whole story mskes no sense to me and the simplest explanation is that it’s part of the Kherson lies.

To CS

I don’t make assertions. Like anyone else I read as much as I can find and then I try to use my truthometer to decide what I should accept. Every source material will have inaccuracies, the issue is whether those inaccuracies are intentional. In any event I like you and I don’t say anything I don’t mean. Let’s see if we can continue this dialogue.

To ARSo

I spoke about Notkin to my Chabad Rabbi. I asked him how, if the story is true, the Baal Hatanya could speak such blatant Loshon hora. His answer, there was a Toeles in telling his Chassidim about Notkin. Notkin offered the Rebbe tea that day and the Rebbe drank it so the Baal.Hatanya was teaching his Chassidim that even if you’re abused by your host you shpuld accept whst he offers. The my froend added that he just made that up.This story, like most Chabad stories is aimed at advancing their agenda.

To Always

Yes I’m familiar with what the Baal Hatanya allegedly said about Notkin but here’s my point. First off we have to realize that thete are the Kherson forgeries which means that we can’t be sure that quotes attributed to the Alter Rebbe were actually said by him. In fact it makes no sense that he publicly insulted Notkin because that’s Loshon Hora and I highly doubt that such a Tzaddik would ever speak loshon hora. But even if we dismiss the Kherson forgeries as a snag lie the question is why Chabad continues to teach its minions this period of history. I’m close to many Chassidim and it means nothing to them. Their families were
wiped out by the Holocaust so they’re going to care that their alter Zeides were spit on?. I went to a Chassidishe yeshiva for the first 4 grades and Litvish for the last 8 and I never heard of those fights. I learned about it in college in a Judaic studies class. It’s time for Lubavichers to put that part of their past away. It does nothing but sow hatred.

To ARSo

Well said.

It is getting too tiring to edit all your posts, and deleting most of them hasn’t seemed to have any effect on the subsequent ones. Either keep your comments directed to the content, or none will be posted. And on the chance anyone is assuming this isn’t a problem with the ‘other team’ in this color war, the hate speech there is a dime a dozen.

Checkmate.

To CS

You come off as a decent fellow so I’ll share this with you. Chaim Miller wrote an English translation of the Tanya. In the foreword he spoke about the dispute between Chasidim and Misnagdim. He quoted the Gaon as saying that the Chassidim had to be dri ven out. He did say that. Then he cited a private letter from the Alter Rebbe which stated that the Gaon’s rhetoric caused the blood of Chassidim to flow like water. There are two problems with this. First, there were no dwaths at that time. Second, if there were deaths then lives would have been lost on both sides so why would the Baal Hatanya only specify Chassidim? Do you think he didn’t value the lives of all Jews. I brought this to my Rov’s attention. He told me that this letter was part of the Kherson forgeries. He explaoned, some time after the Alter Rebbe died his Chassidim forged his signature on documents that were slanderous lies aimed at defaming the Gaon. If you’re really a person of truth talk to someone about what I’ve written. edited

To Menachem Shmei

I want to add to the point that ARSo made today. In response to my assertion that the Rebbe couldn’t be an Anav since he called himself the Godol Hador, you said he was referring to the Rayatz. Nice try, but it doesn’t wash. We previously established that the Rebbe stated in a letter that every Nasi Chabad is also Nasi Hador for all Klal Yisroel. Therefore he was referring to himself as well as the Rayatz. I actually have a guess for the answer you’re going to provide.

To Menachem Shmei
I forgot that comment so I’ll concede that point to you, but with a clarification. Because some black hatters are dogmatic I chose to leave that world(I used to be in a Rabbi Miller based yeshiva) This said, I am not anti Chareidi. I am only anti Chabad. So don’t try portraying me as an equal opprtunity hater. Next, ARSo compiled a comprehensive list of issues for you to address. A few aren’t so strong but most are solid. I’d like to add the Rebbe abandoning the plain Pshat in Chelek and announcing that Moshiach will redeem every Jew. And the Rebbe announcing that Gehinnom no longer exists because there’s no such thing as a Jew who sins. Finally you talked your way out of the who’s greater Gra or Baal Hatanya. To your credit you did that well. Here’s the problem it’s almost mathematically impossible that every Godol hador for 250 years can come from one group. The Gaon said that the simple abswer is the truth. The sime answer is that the Rebbe Mr. Anivus looked into his crystal ball and decided w/o any basis to declare the Nesiei Chabad the unquestioned rulers of Judaism. The oy problem is no real Jews are buying any of that nonsense.

To the group

When I entered this thread Avira and Neville were the leading anti Chabad voices. Frankly, I wasn’t sure where I’d fit in because I recognized that I didn’t have nearly as much factual information, Torah and otherwise, as most of the participants. I decided to join because I felt I could bring two things to the table. First, I’ve learned quite a bit about Chabad from my associations with many of their Rabbis. Second, I sensed that what’s missing is a spirit of camaraderie among the anti Lubavitchers. What was happening was that individual disputes were breaking out over Pshatim in Chazal and this wasn’t touching on the key point, Chabad’s deification of the Rebbe. I was hoping to push the group in that direction but my plan backfired because I “stupidly” mentioned TV which basically turned the whole thread against me. But there emerged a silver lining as Yankel berel not only came to my defense but he became a powerful voice for the side of truth. Moreover, since he established himself it’s now commonplace for the anti Lubavichers to back each other up, something I was hoping for from the beginning. Menachem will likely keep trying to fight off the onslaught, but even he will eventually realize in the near future that his cause is lost. The Rebbe wasn’t the Godol Hador, he wasn’t a Novi and he most certainly wasn’t god. But Menachem can’t accept those facts.

To yankel berwl

Your latest posting was spot on. Menachem Shmei can’t understand that if one must twist the truth to win an argument then his atgument has no validity.
To Menachem

Let’s address some of your distortions(that’s a euphemism).
I have stated in this thread that I only criticize Chabad. That’s a fact. I never said anything negative about black hatters. That’s an outright lie.
The Rebbe makes a ridiculous claim that the greatest Jew in each generation for 250 years is a Chabad Nasi and you can defend that. What gives him the right to make such a decision?
Finally, for about a qeek whwn I joined the thread you promoted the notion that the Rebbe is god and challenged me to study the sugya before I make a final decision. I told you clearly that I will never consider such a possibility. Today you flip flop and tell me that you didn’t mean the Rebbe is god what you meant is that a Tzaddik like the Rebbe can reach a state where he becomes completely attached to Hashem Now that’s not problematic so I can accept it. But it’s not what you originally said. I undestand your predicament. Sechel83 finally gave up, why don’t you do the same? The fat lady has sung.

To yankel berel

No offense, but your latest sounded like it came from n0mesorah. I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

To Menachem Shmei

Edited

you have good writing skills. In your last two posts you expressed yourself quite well. You explained that when the Rebbe spoke about god clothed in human form it simply meant that a Tzaddik can reach a state where he becomes, in a sense, one with Hashem amd therefore if one davens to the Tzaddik he obviously has Hashem in mind. Now if this is what’s meant by god clothed in human form most including myself, wouldn’t find it objectionable. The problem is that you didn’t qualify your statement when I joined the thread. Rather you stated that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form and when I challenged this you told me to study other sources which say the same thing. If, in fact, your real inyent is as you wrote in your last sicha, we’re not so far apart. I’m more amenable to Chassidish Torah since I come from Chassidim. Of course I still have issues with Chabad that I’ve raised and will continue to do so.
Finally, you’re right that neither side will concede, but my goal is to learn more about Chabad not to change you.

To the group
I’d like to return to the subject of the Rebbe’s Nevuah of our redemption. First, can someone clarify when he said it? Second Rabbi Butman constantly reminds us that ours is the last genwration of Golus and the first generation of Geulah. As I understand it a generation lasts 20 years. Clearly that time frame has passed. When do Lubavichers finally accept that the Rebbe’s announcement was a prediction which hasn’t come true?

To any

Ok I agree that Moshiach can come from the dead. Can we now end this thread?

To any

I have another question, “Why is it so important for you to co vince others that the Rebbe will have a second cing?” I believe in Hashem. I feel no need to push my beliefs on anyo e else. The difference between us is that I have true belief in Hashem, but you don’t really believe that the Rebbe will retjrn and so you need affirmation.

To any

I’ll repeat. I heard this psak from others so I can’t quote where it cimes from. If you don’t want to believe it exists that’s your call but I’m sure that your vaunted Mechaber can shed light on this matter. I highly doubt that three peoe two of whom are Chabad would make that up.

To n0mesorah

Why don’t you start your own thread? But don’t tell anyone about it. Thdn you can argue with yourself, the only person in this world you respect.

To Menachem Shmei

“Oh. I forgot you’re on his chess team.” You’re absolutely right
We’re on the same team and we’re ansolutely devoted to our coach, the Ribono Shel Olam Creator and Maintainer of the Universe and everything contained within it.” And the team includes Avirah and ARSo even if we’ve had some contentious moments. We are united to fight this travesty called Chabad. And we will win.

To Menachem Shmei

In your longwinded diatribe you actually answered my question by stating that the Rebbe co sidered the Rayyatz Nasi Hador and by extension every Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of Klal Yisroel. Fine. So npw we have established our differences. You believe what ypur Rebbe said while normative Judsism rejects ot out of hand. Just as I didn’t try to convince anyone to watch TV i won’t try to convince you that your Rebbe was wrong. This said I won’t consider anything said by a person who called himself god. Btw why didn’t you answery question tne first time I asked it? I don’t bite.

To Menachem Shmei
It took me a while to respond but I had to go back to find the last question I asked you which you never answered. The question was as follows, “In the letter you posted, the Rebbe seemed to be saying that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of just Chabad. So how do you explain why most if not all Lubavichers say that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of all Jews?” That’s not tbe only question you refused to answer. If you want to see the others look for my checlmates. As for your question that you asked me seven times, I told you after the first time that I have no intention of studying sources that imply or state that a human being is god. The origimal Christiana supported their heresy with verses, you do the same by misapplying Chazal. Checkmate.

To DaMoshe and 5783

Great points. Lubavichers argue their positions very well as long as no one questions them. Then they resort to their typical defenses, Sinas Chinam, Chabad bashing. I spoke to a Chabad Rabbi last night and he told me that you can’t challenge Chabad with logical arguments because the Rebbe transcended logic and natural laws.

To any

You put out 8 consecutive posts, but did not, in any of them, answer my question, “Why do some Lubavichers like you, believe that the Rebbe will have a second coming and become Moshiach, while others declare that he was already anointed?” The simple answer is that two sects will emerge in Chabad as what happened when the original Chritianity split into Greek and Roman Orthodoxy.

To yankel berel

I really appreciate your straightforward style. If the Lubavichers and their allies admitted defeat we could already be wprking on an 8th Rebbe(my vote is for Rabbi Avraham Zajac)Chabad of Los Angeles.

To n0mesorah

When you post it reminds me of the following “joke”, “That Rabbi’s shiur was so amazing, no one understood a word he said.” That attitude seems to be your stock in trade. I don’t have the foggiest notion of what your beliefs are, because you intentionally speak out of six sides of your mouth. If it makes you happy to think that you’re above us all so be it. From my experience, rational people enjoy open discourse with each side honestly weighing in on the other’s view. That was Menachem Shmei’s stated goal when he opened this thread but he’s apparently learned that his side is untenable and so he’s retreated to his bunker.

To Any

I didn’t actually see the Chafetz Chaim’s Psak but I know several Lubavichers who are aware of it, you can check it out with them. On the other hand, I’m still waiting for you to explain how your landsmen can say that the Rebbe has already been anointed. Finally, a dead Jew coming back to become god/Messiah is called a second coming.

To the group

One of my favorite Beatle songs “Nowhere Man” has the lines, “Doesn’t have a point of view. Knows not where he’s going to.” Remind you of anyone in this thread?