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To Lostspark

No I’m not. Please explain it to me. I really never heard pf it.

To Always

I can accept that we can’t definitively explain catastrophic events, but do you agree that they are caused by our sins or do you agree with the Rebbe that things just happen and there is no rhyme or reason?

To ujm
That’s your opinion and as far as I’m concerned you have no credibility. I asked a simple question to the group, specifically the Lubavichers, “Did the Rebbe have a different view than the Friediker Rebbe vis a vis the Holocaust?” Based on what I’ve read and been told by Lubavichers the Rebbe held that the Holocaust couldn’t be explained while the Friedike Rebbe said it was a punishment from Shomoyim for the breakdown of Yiddishkeit in Europe. It’s not such a difficult question. But, as I’ve learned from the months I’ve spent on this site, Lubavichers rarely answer any question. So again, would someone please answer, rather than obfuscate the question.

To Menachem Shmei

Why not make things easy for everyone. You’ve proven your expertise regarding Chabad lore. So elucidat the last two Rebbes’ opinions vis a vis the Holocaust. Did they agree it was a punishment? Or did they agree it wasn’t a punishment? Or did they disagree? Of course you won’t answer tbe question because you know the Rebbe didn’t agree with the Friediker. But tbe answer is simple. A Chosid can’t disagree with his Rebbe unless the Chosid is god clothed in human form.

To Always

Thanks for your comments. You clearly know more about the subject than I do. When I make statements they’re empirically based. The point is that the Yetzer hora wants to lull frum Jews into thinking that they’re perfect and the problem is with the freier. It’s definitely not that simple.

To Avirah
I think that this is a case where your position and the Chabad view can both be justified. On the one hand, there are Jews who are totally entrenched in Aveiros, consider Norman Finklestein, as an example. He continues to support the Palestinians and refuses to criticize the Oct 7th massacre. On the other hand, I used to think that the Rebbe was off the wall for positing that all Jews would be redeemed by Moshiach. I think and/or hope that recent events are preparing the world for Moshiach, and I find it very encouraging that a number of Jewish celebrities(nonobservant) have stepped up on behalf of Israel. Along those lines, I paid a Shiva call a few weeks ago to the family of a Russian Jew. I worked with the father who was a lovely person, but we focused on the events in Israel. I was so impressed by their concern. One daughter asked me if I could help her get her Mezuzas checked. So yes the Pintel Yid is active in many Jews that might be thought of as Rachokim. In contrast, the psychos who continue bashing the “Zionist state” are probably irretrievably lost even if they have long-payos and only eat Cholov Yisrael.

To Sechel83

Let me change the narrative. The Rebbwe has a Sichah in which he explaons why he holds that Moshiach will redeem every Jew including Roshoim. A Lubavicher taught me the Sichah about a year ago. If you’re familiar with it then we can discuss it. If you need me to tell you where this Sicha is ask me and I’ll speak to that Lubavicher. The fact is, however, that the Rebbe did not accept the Gemara in Chelek of 1/300,000.

To sechel83

The Vilna Gaon had a brilliant insight, “The simplest answer is the truth.” Your Rebbe rejected the Gemara in Chelek. It’s possible he had a valid rwason for doing so and so he’s not definitely a Kofer,  You can’t change the facts. You cancite all the Gemaras you want but they have nothing to do with 1/300,000. Sorry, no one is buying what you’re trying to peddle. Also no mainstream Jew accepts that the Rebbe or any of the Nesiei Chabad were prophets.

edited

To always

Thanks for weighing in, it’s tiresome to go back and forth with sechel. I think it’s time to take a step back. It should be clear to all that neither side will budge the other. This thread was started to convince mainstream Jews that the Rebbe will return to life as Moshiach. Obviously, every rational Jew rejects this. My reason for writing is so that people who are impressed with Chabad, because of their wonderful outreach work will recognize that Chabad’s belief system leaves much to be desired.

To the group

I spoke to a Lubavicher yesterday and asked him when the Rebbe began to speak about Moshiach’s imminent arrival. He told me it was as soon as he became Nasi. So let’s understand. The Rebbe announced more than seventy years ago that Moshiach is coming. Imminent means any minute, not any century. Anyone can predict that Moshiach will come at some time in the future. A prophecy requires an actual date.

To Sechel83

Thanks for finally providing your sources, but there’s one problem. The Gemaras you quote speak about Roshoim who ultimately get into Olam Habo after a lengthy stay in Gehinnom. I will never challenge any statement in the Gemara, but that’s not the subject of the Gemara on 111a which says that only a small percentage of Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. Therefore, you haven’t provided any statement which challenges that Gemara. More troubling, however, is your assertion that there is no difference between Jews. What you’re saying is that the Rebbe and Trotsky, for example, are equal. Ch”vsh

To sechel83
For the record, you stated thst there were Gemaras that argued on the Gemara in Chelek. We both know that no such Gemara exists, As I stated earlier in the week this is not the time for Jews to fight with each other because our brothers and sisters in Israel are in danger. My thoughts are with them, but edited

To 613yid

I don’t think that anyone is challenging the notion of Moshiach min hameisim. What mainstream Jewry is saying is that when we speculate that Moshiach will come from the dead there’s no reason to assume that the specific dead person will be the Rebbe.
To sechel83

You claimed that there are Gemaras(plural) that argue against the Gemara in Cheilek. We’re waiting for ypu to produce said Gemoros or admit that they don’t exist.

To sechel83

So you believe that there’s someone alive today who could be Moshiach, but you don’t know that person’s identity. I agree with you. And this has been true throughout the millennia. Only in the case of the Rebbe did his followers decide he was that potential Moshiach. Remember, mainstream Judaism never accepted the notion that the Rebbe was the Moshiach Hador when he was alive, and we certainly don’t believe that he’ll have a second coming to claim the throne. Yes, Rabbi Akiva said that about Bar Kochba, but when Bar Kochba died he realized he was wrong. That’s a message that is lost on Chabad because its leader changed or rejected Gemaras when they didn’t fit his agenda. BTW, instead of citing sources summarize them in English.

To sechel83

“The Chasam Sofer and othets write that in every generation there is someone alive who is fit to be Moshiach.” Who is that person in our generation? Yankel berelbcalled you a liar for refusing to admit that Moshiach min hameisim was a post Gimmel Tammuzi invention. I’ll second yankel’s assertion because there is no Machlokes in ths Gemara in Chelek. The only person in the history of the Jewish people who rejected that explicit Gemara is the Rebbe.

To yankel berel

I’d like to add to your point about Chabad rejecting the concept of Moshiach from the dead. A Lubavicher told me that when the Tebbe died it created shock waves in CH because it meant that he coulcn’t be Moshiach. Rather rhan accept that simple truth, two camps emerged. One denied that the Rebbe actually died, the other accepted that fact but consoled themselves with the Chazal that after a Tzaddik dies he’s more alive than when he was living.

To always,
As yankel berel said it’s not sinas chinam to criticize Chabad theology. All Hashem expects from us is that we tell the truth. If, as it’s quite clear that Chabad is distorting the truth to convince others of its beliefs then we’re obligated to call them out. As for your attack on Godolhad, if he’s right accept it. Don’t let your ego stand in the way of truth.

To yankel berel
Again, you’re spot on. The simple truth is that Chabad is trapped by its need to “prove” its lies. Actually I saw the same thing in another thread. I criticized Rabbi Miller, mildly, and one of his followers twisted the truth to defend him. It’s not the Jewish way to believe in perfect leaders. At the same time we must always be respectful to those who devote themselves to the Torah. Finally, the moderators deserve credit for maintaining civility in these discussions.

To Always ask

You’re making a great point and I’d like to expand on it. When Rav Yaakov said that Moshiach would come from Rabbi Auerbach’s yeshiva he wasn’t stating a prophecy, or even making a prediction. Rather he was trying to impress on people that Moshiach will bring all Jews together and so a Yeshiva that meets the needs of Ashkenazim and Sefardim is what Hashem is looking for. In contrast, Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe was a Novi and so they take each of his words Kipshuto. That’s why they twist themselves into a pretzel trying to resolve his contradictory statements.

To always

The only thing we learn from Jewish history is that no one, except Hashem, knows the identity of Moshiach and when he will arrive. Rav Yaakov’s guess, it’s not a Psak, is as valid, or as meaningless as what Chabad tries shoving down our throats. A Jew is obligated in Torah and Mitzvohs and not in idle speculation about Moshiach. Yes, we all want Moshiach, but the Chafetz Chaim taught us how to ask Hashem to send our Redeemer, devote oneself to Torah study, particularly Kodshim and Taharos.  Edited

To the group

The Gemara cites the Tanna, R Shimon Haamsuni who made it his life’s work to Darshen all the “essim” of the Torah. When he came to a certain Posuk whose “ess” he felt he couldn’t explain, R Shimon disbanded his life’s work. This is the pinnacle of intellectual honesty. In contrast, numerous questions have been posed to the Lubavichers in this and other threads and they’re batting a robust .000. Still they hold on to the belief that their Rebbe is the long-awaited Redeemer. We can explain their intransigence with a pithy aphorism, “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind’s made up.” There are two chances of the Rebbe being Moshiach, slim and none.

To sechel83

So you’re now saying that the point of advertising Rabbi Bechpfer’s video is to justify Chabad’s belief that the Rebbe will come back to life and be Moshiach. If that’s your point and you’re not trying to convince non Lubavichers of your belief then fine. I do ‘t care if you continue to hold out hope. But here’s the problem. Why do so many of your landsmen not agree with you that the Rebbe will return from the dead and bece Moshiach? They claim that he never died and he is already Moahiach. Would you care to comment about them?

To any

Read what you wrote to ARSo,”They believed he was Moshiach when he was alive and so they believed he was Moshiach when he died.” “They” means Lubavichers and only Lubavichers. Therefore since “they” believed he was Moshiach when he was alive “they” also believed he was Moshiach when he died. Now why did Lubavichers believe the Rebbe was Moshiach when he was alive? It’s because he said or hinted that he was. This created the mass hysteria. Therefore, when you try to convince rational people that the Rebbe is Moshiach and he will return from the dead we’re not buying any of it. At the same time, I won’t try to talk you out of your belief because you’re not ready, willing or able to accept the truth.

To thw group

The sources are in books whose veracity is questionable at best.

To the group

Sechel83 directed us to a YouTube video called, “The Rebbe shlita Melech Hamoshiach.” given by a Litvak named Rabbi Gavriel Bechofer. His implied message was that this clip would convince non Lubavichers that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Rabbi Bechofer, who is obviously a Talmid Chacham, said as follows, “According to Rambam it’s possible that Moshiach will come from the dead.” Now that’s not earth-shattering because he’s simply reiterating what the Gemara says. The Rabbi then added that this fact means nothing to anyone outside of Chabad because mainstream Judaism sees no reason why the Rebbe would be chosen to return from the dead over any number of Torah giants such as the Chasam Sofer, Rav Moshe, Rav Shlomo Zalman, you get the point. Thank you sechel83 for bringing this video to our attention as it only confirms what non-Lubavichers have been saying throughout this and all other threads on various sites. The Rebbe is no different than any other scholar who died. That Lubavichers believe otherwise is not worth trying to refute. We’ll apply this saying to Chabad, “Don’t confuse me with the facts my mind’s made up.”