Forum Replies Created
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Posts
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To akuperma
I concur that you have the right to spend your money as you see fit, but if you indulge in Gashmiyus and ignore Ruchniyus, you’ll be very disappointed when you come to the next world. I can’t tell you how to balance the two, for that you need to speak to your Rav, assuming he isn’t also gashmiyus driven as are so many of them.
To rescue
I like your style, not only in this thread but in general. Keep up the good work.
To Serendipity
You’re preaching to the choir. I could go on for hours. Pesach vacations, Yeshiva week. Orthodox Judaism is Gashmius with a side order of Daf Yomi. The Yetzer hora has taken full advantage of the wealth in the frum community to take us away from Hashem. Great post. It should do very well.
To aaq
You’re exactly right. Rabbi Miller believed that the MO were a virus that would infect his holy Charedim, but you didn’t explain why he felt that way. I’d like to present two reasons. First, he often said that the Chitzonius affects the Pnimiyos. Because of this principle it was important to dress as befits a Ben Torah. He therefore had disdain for the MO who dress casually. But there’s another reason that’s more to the point. Rabbi Miller felt that rank-and-file Jews should blindly follow their mentors and this isn’t the system in the MO world. Now we should be clear that not all Charedi Rabbis accept Rabbi Miller’s approach. I’m a Lower East Sider and the Feinsteins never told us what to do. My current Rav, Rabbi Plutchok also doesn’t believe that a Rav should throw his weight around.
To somejewiknow
Sorry, it’s not obvious. He stated clearly that he’s referring to those MO’s who keep the Torah. Now I know why you’re defending Rabbi Miller. He despised the State of Israel as you do, but with one big difference, he also was against Neturei Karta.
To Gadolhadorah
You nailed it. That’s exactly my point. Thank you.
To coffee addict
I’ll repeat his quote, “The MO’s keep the Torah and we’re obligated to love them. However, we should treat them as relatives who have an infectious disease and stay as far away from them as possible.” That sounds like it’s Der Sturmer worthy. As for your comment about blasting people in Kollel, he was referring to individuals who don’t want to work and want to live off their spouses and in-laws. He wasn’t vilifying an entire population. No comparison whatsoever.
To Sechel83
You accept that he had relations with every species in the universe. There are approximately 10 million species in the world. You do the math. He had the relations in about five or six hours. Even Wilt Chamberlain wasn’t that busy. Obviously, that Midrash isn’t meant to be taken literally. I will withdraw my statement about challenging a Rishon with one caveat. The Vilna Gaon was on the level of a Rishon. The Rebbe was an engineer and Shul Rabbi. That’s a major difference.
To yankel berel
Obviously, I’m not interested in anything Sechel says. I just want him around because Yedl and Shimon Katz try to defend Chabad by arguing that there are a handful of crazies. Sechel represents mainstream Chabd. They accept any insanity if it can be used to prove their lunacy.
To yedl
I heard Rabbi Shais Taub speak the other day and I was impressed. He actually sounded like a real Jew.To Sechel
I’ll respond to you if you answer the following two questions A. When did the Gaon argue against a Rishon? B. Do you believe that Adam Harishon had relations with every species in the world on the day he was created?
To yedl
I assume that you would consider Sechel as one of the handful of crazies. IMHO he represents the common Lubavicher, a brainwashed idiot when it comes to the Kofer in Queens but a perfectly functioning Jew in all other aspects of his life.
To coffee addict
Reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated. You’re convinced that Aaq has refuted me but I don’t see it. Basically he repeated what Rabbi Miller said which is that Modern Orthodox Jews are second class citizens. I want an explanation for this view. In my not so humble opinion, all observant Jews are equal.
To yedl
I like and respect you but we’re going in circles. The Rabbi who told me that the Rebbe said he’s Moshiach in 1951 is also the one who said that when he became Moshiach he shut down Gehinnom. This jibes with Manis Friedman who says that no Jew can be punished anymore due to the long bitter Golus. His last name is Okunov if that helps you. We just had Seichel, whom I consider to be a typical Lubavicher, stating that the Rebbe is greater than Moshe Rabbeinu. He’s not crazy. He’s just repeating what he’s been told. Why don’t you tell me the profile of what you consider to be a “normal” Lubavicher? In addition, do you agree with me that the Rebbe was a Kofer for rejecting the Gemara in Cheilek which says that very few Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach and for stating that the Rayatz, and perhaps himself, were Noviim?
To coffee addict
Congratulations. You join the list of those who challenge the veracity of my statements. Let me present the full version of what Rabbi Miller said. I saw this in the Toras Avigdor Parshas Beshalach. “The Bnei Yisroel went through the Yam Suf in 12 channels. This demonstrates that diversity is a hallmark of Judaism. Askenazim, Sefardim, Satmar, Bobov Lubavich they’re all good. But there’s one exception, the Modern Orthodox. Yes, they keep the Torah, so they are our brothers and we’re required to love them however they are very far from the ideal of what a Jews should be. Therefore, you should treat them like a relative who has an infectious disease and stay as far away from them as possible.”
As for your “proof” that he wouldn’t have said such a thing there are two rebuttals. First, many Young Israels have Yeshivish mispallelim. This was the case on the LES. The YI was more lack hat than MTJ. Or you can say that Rabbi Miller drove out the moderns with his rhetoric. I went to his shul quite often and I only recall seeing black hatters. Checkmate.To Yankel Berel
You’re preaching to the choir. I didn’t introduce the “crazy” issue, that was yedl. He insinuated that I found a handful of crazy Lubavitchers and then defamed the entire group. I’m fully aware that the rank-and-file Lubavitcher has been trained to believe that the Rebbe is a deity.
To commonsaychel and pekak
Thank you for correcting me and doing so in a civilized manner. On January 25th shtreimelech 1 wrote that originally Empire used modern shochtim and so the reason they still have a bad name is because it’s a Yerusha from that “shameful” time. He’s probably a Chassid and I read that Finkel was a Chassid, so that’s why I mentioned Chassidim, but I should’ve said Charedim. Fine, I was wrong, but the point still stands, “The Chareidi world (Chassidim-Yeshivish) believe that they’re frummer than the MO, and it’s a canard, thanks for the word ujm. UJM also said that Chassidim don’t teach that they’re frummer than the Modern. I’ll borrow another word from that poster “hogwash.” Rabbi Miller, who’s beloved in the Charedi world gave a Dvar Torah on Parshas Beshalach (coincidence?) in which he said that regular, meaning Charedi Jews, should stay as far away as possible from the Modern Orthodox because they don’t represent the ideal of what a Jew should be.
To yedl
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I think we disagree in the way we characterize crazy. I don’t think that a Lubavicher who says that the Rebbe is/was greater than Moshe Rabbeinu is crazy. I believe that this is the Chabad “educational” system at work. The other day Seichel83 “proved” that the Rebbe is greater than Moshe (I say is because last year he cited a Psak of 100 Chabad Rabbis who decided that the Rebbe is Moshiach, that he’s a Novi and that he’s alive.) I don’t think that Sechel is crazy because he has presented cogent arguments in the past. Let me buttress my point with two incidents. The Rabbi of the Chabad shul I attend is a very fine person. He’s exceptionally bright and is raising a big, beautiful family however he said the following three things. I asked him when the Moshiach business started and he said, “In 1951 when the Rebbe took over, he announced he’s Moshiach so that’s it.” On another occasion he said, “The Rebbe shut down Gehinnom when he became Moshiach.” Finally, he’s the one who said that the Rebbe had a dream at three years old and decided he’s Moshiach.” Another story. This Rabbi’s cousin asked me if I read Dr. Berger’s book. I said yes so, he asked me to tell him something from it. I told him that Dr. Berger wrote that 8 Rabbis from Oholei Torah said the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. He responded, “So what’s wrong with that? I can prove it. We know that every Jew has a spark of Elokus. Rashi says that Moshe was equal to all of Israel, so he had all those sparks. Since the Rebbe is the Moshe Rabbeinu of our generation, he has the sparks of every Jew who ever lived. When you add up all those sparks, you have Hashem.” He too is a very bright, successful fellow raising a large family and so I would not call him crazy. I believe that the norm, by which I mean typical Lubavitcher, is brainwashed into believing that the Rebbe was a deity and so these comments are not exceptional. That’s why I’m convinced that there is no hope for Chabad. I think we basically agree with each other and it’s really semantics that we’re arguing about. Please feel free to write and we can continue this discussion. I consider you a mentsch.
To commonsaychel
Let me respond to your comment that I have a deep-seated hatred for anything Chassidish. My family was Chassidish Galitziyaner on both sides in Europe. I am a descendant of R Meir Premishlan, so I have tremendous respect and love for Chassidim. The only Chassidic group that I have criticized is Chabad and it has nothing to do with their being Chassidic; it’s because of their outlandish beliefs. As for your statement that Moshe Finkel isn’t a Chassid, Chat-GPT disagrees with you.
To ujm
As for your statement that the butcher wasn’t a Chassid, that’s not what AI says, and it’s rarely wrong. As for your contention that Chassidim aren’t taught that they’re frummer than the modern Orthodox, you must be joking. Let me share a personal story. I went to a Chassidish yeshivah on the LES until 5th grade at which point I switched to MTJ. Ninety percent of the boys were Chassidish, at that time Boro Park hadn’t yet become fully developed. When I started fourth grade a boy approached me, “This year we got a new boy who’s going to beat you in English and he’s a real Jew.” He considered me a goy because I didn’t have payos and I disn’t speak Yiddish.
To aaq
Thank you. That’s exactly what I was saying. But there’s an additional point that should be made. Many Chassidim are thieves as is evidenced by the number of them who are incarcerated for white collar crime. The Yetzer hora tells them that since they’re so Makpid on Kashrus, it’s okay if they steal.
To YYA
Fine now we’re good. You could’ve avoided all this acrimony by simply saying this last year when Yankel Berel challenged you. I hear what you’re saying about attacking the Rebbe. Let me share what Rabbi Plutchok said, “Yaakov, everything you think about Chabad and the Rebbe is true but keep it to yourself.” The reason I’m so strident is because of the statements coming from the other side, be it from Chabad or from their supporters. As I’ve said on numerous occasions, I’m not trying to get through to the Lubavichers. They are idolaters and/or cult members and so they can’t be reached. What irks me is when non-Lubavicher supporters try to defend this indefensible movement by saying things like there are a handful of crazies, but all the others are normal. I have extensive dealings with Chabad, and they’re all drunk on the Rebbe Kool-Aid. As a show of good faith, I’ll try to tone down the rhetoric. I’m impressed that you apologized, and to reiterate I like Lubavichers, I just dislike Chbad’s false beliefs.
To yankel berel
Thank you. Some of the things he’s said in the past were true, so I thought that perhaps there was such a Midrash. Of course, even if such a Midrash existed it would be totally irrelevant. Lubavichers are idolaters and so they’ll make up anything to convince themselves that their lies are true.
To TheWizard
Let’s follow your logic. You’re arguing that I should accept Rabbi Miller’s opinion regarding Chabad over that of Rabbi Plutchok because the former was a Gadol and Rabbi Plutchok is a mere shul Rav. Well, I would then ask you why you are putting your trust in Rabbi Miller who was only a Gadol, as compared to Rav Shach who was the Gadol Hador? If that approach doesn’t satisfy you, I’ll use a different line of reasoning. One of Rav Moshe’s grandsons is my patient. He’s a big Chassid of Rabbi Miller, but he hates Chabad. How can that be? The answer is that we’re Lower East Siders and we use our own minds to make our decisions. You seem to think that I became anti-Chabad because of Rabbi Plutchok. No, I met Rabbi Plutchok about 12 years ago, but I’ve been anti-Chabad for 25 years. If you’d like to continue this discussion, feel free to write, but you should learn how to show me a modicum of respect. I’m probably twice your age and definitely four times more intelligent than you.
To YYA
On Dec 3, 2025 Shimon Katz wrote that the Chabad belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach is factually wrong and dangerous. Since you’re claiming that you and Mr. Katz are in lockstep, please provide the post in which you articulated that exact position.
To the group
It’s obviously true that the Kashrus of Empire chickens is unimpeachable. So why do some question it? The answer comes from Shtreimlech 1 who said on January 25th that in the beginning they didn’t have a good name because they had modern shochtim. Let’s pay attention to what he’s saying. Chassidim are told in their Yeshivas that they’re more religious than the Modern Orthodox. That’s total rubbish, but they believe it and that’s why they require a Heimishe label. Let’s remember that the fellow who sold Treif chickens as Kosher was a Chossid.
To Yankel Berel
Yedl likes to play the crazy game. You know, there are some crazy Lubavichers but they don’t represent mainstream Chabad. Any Lubavicher who thinks that the Rebbe is Moshiach can be called crazy, but that’s not accurate because the belief that he’s Moshiach, that he was a Novi and even that he’s still alive are all widely held. Last year Sechel reported that there’s a Psak from 100 Chabad Rabbis proclaiming all three of those things. I checked it out and he told the truth. I’m sure that Sechel can find a Midrash which says that the Rebbe is equal to Hashem and then he’ll say, “What’s the difference equal greater?”
To Shimon Katz
If at first. You tried to use my Rosh Yeshiva against me and failed miserably. Now you suggest that I’m misrepresenting what Rabbi Plutchok said. So let me set the record straight. It was Rabbi Plutchok who taught me the term Millerites. It doesn’t refer to all followers only those who believe that he was infallible. Here are some snippets from the Rov. He told me that everything I think about Chabad and the Rebbe is true. He also told me the Rebbe’s gaavah was so great he convinced himself that he’s god. Boruch Hashem you don’t call me a liar like YYA did. I know what Rabbi Plutchok said just as I know what Manis means. I’m not trying to change your mind because I know that will never happen. You remind me of Paroah who wouldn’t listen to his advisors. But I do like you.
To yedl
I would be happy to respond to your post except for one problem, I have no idea what you mean by a crazy Lubavicher versus a normal Lubavicher. Please clarify that point. I know that their most respected Rabbi has declared that one can do any sin, and do it intentionally, and nothing will happen to him and no one in Chabad has challenged him.
To sechel83
Welcome back. I’m amazed that you’ve been able to stand on the sideline for so long. Now let’s deal with your points. The pshatim that Chabad has invented on that Gemara are accepted by no one outside of CH and by Chabad shills, but let’s put that aside because there’s a much clearer proof that the Rebbe was a Kofer. As yankel berel pointed out, the SMAG definitively ruled, there’s no Nevuah until Moshiach comes and the Rebbe stated that the Rayatz was a Novi. Now I’d like to address your last point. First, your logic fails me. What connection is there between my arguing with my Rosh Yeshiva and the Rebbe being greater than Moshe Rabbeinu Chas Vesholom? But that’s not my real concern. You’ve introduced a critical difference between Chassidim and Misnagdim. You accept anything your Rebbe said, because you have no choice, but I have every right to challenge my Rov. Since he refused to deal with me as an equal, I left him and found another Rov.
To Shimon Katz
About a month ago someone commented that the anti-Lubavichers are consistent. I think that’s accurate. I left my Rosh Yeshiva because he wasn’t truthful, and now I have to leave you because you aren’t truthful. Therefore, I don’t plan to comment on your posts. I still like you just as I love my Rosh Yeshiva, but for me truth trumps all.
To yedl
I heard the son-in-law of a Chabad Rabbi (not in the shul I attend) say, “People compare the Rebbe to Moshe Rabbeinu but they’re very wrong, because the Rebbe was much bigger. We see in the Torah that Moshe had a bad temper that he couldn’t control, but the Rebbe never got angry.”
To Shimon Katz
I’d like to respond to your latest post. My former Rosh Yeshiva is a genius. He graduated MIT and became an MD. I consider myself to be of average intelligence. In addition I saw your post on ujm’s math thread and I was duly impressed. So yes you’re both “smarter” than me, but neither of you can match my logical skills nor my devotion to truth. You argued that I should have accepted what he said because he’s smarter than me. Let me share two stories. When he saw that I was getting annoyed he approached me and said,”Do you agree that Chabad does some good?” I said, “Of course and then I asked him if Chabad does anything wrong.” He said, “No, every Lubavicher is perfect.” I’ll share a second story. Mike Bloomberg won the first Genesis Prize in 2014 as the world’s best Jew. The Jewish Week protested his selection on many grounds but Shmuel Butman came to his defense. He wrote a letter praising him as a wonderful committed Jew stating that he lit his Menorah every year that he was mayor. He then added that the Rebbe taught us to see the good in every Jew. My Rosh Yeshiva knew Bloomberg from MIT and he often told us that he hated him. So I showed him the letter that Butman wrote. As I assumed he cursed out Butman. I then said, “He’s one of Chabad’s five most influential Rabbis.” He responded, “That’s nonsense. No one in Chabad ever heard of him.” I said, “That’s hard to believe since he’s hosted a radio show for the last 20 years.” He then ended the discussion,”No Lubavicher has a radio in his house.” It’s not that my Rosh Yeshiva didn’t listen to.me it’s that he wouldn’t listen to me because he couldn’t question anything that Rabbi . Miller said. My present Rav is Rav Moshe Plutchok. He’s beyond a genius but he’s also sensible He said, “Millerites and Lubavichers are cult members they aren’t Jews,” That makes you a cultist and so there’s no getting through to you. But I do like you and I still appreciate how you eliminated YYA. I hate his guts.
To yankel; berel and square root
Shimon Katz and yedl are both good guys and they’re exceedingly bright, so why can’t we get through to them? For many years I had a close relationship with Rabbi Miller’s Talmid Muvhak. I eventually had to part ways with him because of Chabad. He refused to listen to anything I said because Rabbi Miller liked Chabd and the Rebbe and that was all she wrote. Shimon and yedl have their reasons for being attached to Chabad and the Rebbe and so they’re hopelessly lost.
To Shimon Katz
It’s Sanhedrin 111a. Rava says that only 1/300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach.
To Shimon Katz
Can I find an Elokista? Sure. Rabbi Shlomo Cunin who definitively stated that the Rebbe runs the world and “HE” will take us out of Golus. Actually, many, if not most, Lubavichers agree that the Rebbe and not Hashem runs the world. I’ll share a story. A few years ago, I was in the Sukkah of the Chabad shul I attend. Two guys had the following exchange, “Everything we have in our lives comes from the Rebbe.” The other one responded, “Of course. We live in the shadow of the Rebbe.” These fellows were stam Russian Mechallels when they came to the shul and the Rabbis don’t intentionally brainwash them into believing that the rebbe is you know what, but they pick it up by osmosis. The rabbis never mention Hashem; everything is the Rebbe so what conclusion should they draw?
To ujm
I never thought I would say this, but I’m agreeing with a point you made today. You cite the Midrash Tanchuma that only one out of five Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. Actually, the Gemara in Cheilek 111A says that only 1/300,000 Jews will be saved. The exact number isn’t the point I want to bring out. The Lubavicher Rebbe rejected this Gemara and declared that every single Jew will be redeemed by Moshiach. Woody Allen, Charles Schumer every intermarried Jew. There will be no distinctions. And YYA of course, agrees with the Rebbe, because he considers him a Novi who is above the Gemara. As for your 98% statement, I would take exception with that, but obviously there are more irreligious Jews than religious ones.
To Shimon Katz
You made some points that I would like to address. About 30 years ago I mentioned Rabbi Deutsch to a Chabad Rabbi, after spending a Shabbos in his community in Boro Park. He dismissed him as follows, “That nut wanted to be the new Rebbe.” I didn’t pursue the matter because I wouldn’t trust anything that he said. Would you like to relate the actual story? Second, the Elokistim don’t concern me as much as the Friedmanistim. A few weeks ago, a Lubavich woman on VIN excused all lost Jews by stating, “they’re confused because of the long, bitter Golus.” Manis Friedman has no right or power to give any Jew a pass. I wouldn’t call him because I heard him being interviewed by Rabbi Efren Goldberg and he came off as an arrogant jerk repeating the Kefirah that Mitzvahs aren’t commandments. They’re just nice things that we should do to fulfill G-d’s needs. Only Hashem can decide who is a Tinok Shenishba. Those who aren’t will be duly punished no matter what Chabad wants to believe. The bigger problem is the Chabad lie propagated by the Rebbe that every Jew will be redeemed by Moshiach. That flies in the face of an open Gemara. Again, this is Chabad usurping Hashem’s power to judge. Finally, if it’s true that Rabbi Deutsch wanted to start a breakaway movement why would that be a problem? It’s no different than what’s happened to so many other Chassidic groups. Anyway, I’m glad you’re back, because you’re a Mensch.
To yedl
Reread your last post. You clearly acknowledge that there are crazies in Chabad. That’s something that the shills like Shimon Katz and YYA refuse to admit.
Frankly I don’t understand why this discussion still has legs. Shlomo Cunin announced that the Rebbe runs the world, and we know Manis said. Despite what they would have the masses believe, G-d still very much exists, and He demands the truth from His children. Chabad must end this deification of the Rebbe. He was no different than any other person who ever lived. He should be respected like other great men who lived and then died. Your excuse, which is quite popular among apologists is that there are a handful is crazies doesn’t wash. I have extensive dealings with Lubavichers and they clearly deify the Rebbe. I like you but you’ve earned a Checkmate.To yankel berel
Rabbi Deitsch is public enemy number one according to Chabad. When he was living in CH, he faced death threats and so he had to move to Boro Park. Chabad is the greatest proof of the power of Sheker. Satan sees that Moshiach’s arrival is close and so he’s using Chabad as a buffer to keep him away. It’s not about intelligence. Shimon Katz, yedl and YYA are very smart, quite likely smarter than you and I, but they lie because Schneersohn is their god and they can’t let him go.
To Shimon Katz
As to your contention that Chabad invented Kiruv in America, that’s not something worth arguing about, so if it will make you happy, I’ll concede that point. On the other hand, it’s totally disingenuous for you to claim that the present form of Chabad is simply a continuation of the Rayatz’ work. As Rabbi Herschel Schachter said, when he was interviewed by Dovid Lichtenstein, “Many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of to Hashem and this is Avodah Zarah.” This was not true under the Rayatz. Nor did we have a Manis Friedman stating that Mitzvahs are optional and that no Jew can be punished today no matter what sin he commits. Yedl acknowledged that there are serious issues in CH, and he’s quite aware of what’s going on. On a personal note, I appreciate what you did for me in helping to eliminate YYA from this thread, but if you shill for Chabad, I will challenge you.
To Light3672
Achdus is when we learn to consider the viewpoints of those we disagree with instead of dismissing them.
To aaq
You’re missing the point. Chabad like to brag that they invented Kiruv and mainstream Kiruv developed because they were copying what Chabad was doing. The facts don’t justify their conclusion since NCSY preceded the first Chabad house by 15 years. You’re suggesting that there were individual Lubavichers who were doing kiruv before 1969. That’s certainly possible, but there’s no reason to assume that there was no mainstream Kiruv before 1954. Yankel Berel and I are simply challenging Chabad’s assertion.
To somejewiknow
I was simply responding to your point. Rav Herschel Schachter and Rav Mordechai Willig are two of the great leaders of Modern Orthodoxy and they have never, Chas Vsholom, endorsed any deviation in Halacha or in our tradition. If there are individuals who are calling themselves Modern Orthodox who are violating Halacha, this is not a reflection of Modern Orthodoxy, just as an individual Chassid who’s convicted of some white-collar crime doesn’t prove that all Chassidim are thieves.
To yedl
Since you agree that there are issues within Chabad, we’re good. It’s not necessary for us to be perfectly aligned. My beef has always been with the YYA’s of the world who refuse to acknowledge that there’s anything wrong with Chabad and use any type of deceitful tactics to win the day.
To aaq
We’re discussing the present iteration of Chabad as derived from their last Rebbe, so why do you tell us about the previous Rebbe?
To somejewiknow
I don’t understand your point please clarify.
To yedl
Have you ever met a Lubavicher who thinks the Rebbe was a Novi? You certainly have, because all who think the Rebbe is Moshiach also think he’s a Novi. To believe that the Rebbe is a Novi runs counter to our Mesorah. But that obviously doesn’t bother you because you think that the Rebbe has the right to countermand the Torah. And what about those who believe he’s still alive? Do you want to try to convince us that there’s only two or three people like that? You can continue spreading the blarney that there’s just a few crazies who give Chabad a bad name, but no one’s buying that. When Schneerson died the Meshichistas emerged. Mainstream Jewry was assured that they comprise only a small handful. Obviously, they were lying. Those who challenge Chabad know what we’re talking about and so your lame arguments won’t dissuade us. Since you seem to be connected, it would behoove you to get a movement started to depose the Rebbe and return Chabad to what it used to be, a very viable Chassidus.
To yankel berel
Excellent point as usual. Chabad likes to say that it invented Kiruv and the other Kiruv organizations copied them. It’s an outright lie. NCSY began in 1954. while the first Chabad House was established in 1969. Moreover, calling Chabad outreach Kiruv, is a misnomer. Kiruv means bringing people close to Hashem by teaching them to become fully observant. It includes explaining the concepts of reward and punishment. Chabad rejects these basic principles of our faith. What they preach is Mitzvah observance. It’s a good thing but it isn’t Kiruv.
To GadolHadofi
I love it when people get right to the point and speak the unvarnished truth. We have a number of Chabad apologists in this thread, and we wonder why they can’t see what’s obvious to us. Chabad is an idolatrous religion, to what extent is for Hashem to decide. Rabbi Akiva said that those who support idolatry, are themselves idolaters, and this explains why these well-meaning fools twist themselves like a pretzel to defend Chabad’s abuses of our faith.
to somejewiknow
And there are Chassidim who casually steal from the government and some who casually consort with women other than their wives so let’s be careful about attacking other groups of Jews. I agree that there are Jews who are far from observant, and they justify their behavior by claiming to be Modern Orthodox. They think that this is a Heter. This is a Yetzer Hora argument. No matter a Jew’s affiliation, there’s one Torah. You either keep it, or you don’t. The reason I rail against Chabad is because they have officially declared that we no longer have an obligation to keep the Mitzvahs, rather it’s a person’s choice whether or not to do so.
To the group
Such rhetoric is commonplace. Self-hating Jews are called Kapos as an example. I agree that words shouldn’t be used loosely lest they impart the wrong message.
To somejewiknow
You obviously think that the modern orthodox don’t represent a valid form of Yiddishkeit. Could you tell me what, in particular, bothers you about them? Also, in doing so, please explain your definition of Modern Orthodox.
to yedl and DovidBT
It looks like we’ve come to a parting of the ways. That’s too bad because I enjoyed our exchanges. To your credit, you both acted civilly and so we can be friends even though we’re obviously quite far apart on the subject of Chabad.
To yedl
The first claim may not be Kefirah, but it violates the principle of Al Tifrosh Min Hatzibbur. No Jew outside of Chabad believes the Rebbe was, is or will be Moshiach, yet the overwhelming majority of Lubavichers do believe it. That’s a problem. To believe the Rebbe is a Novi is Kefirah, but all the Lubavichers who accept that the Rebbe is Moshiach do so because they believe that Hashem anointed the Rebbe when he was three years old. As for the last two claims, you argue that only mentally unstable Lubavichers believe that. Well, Rabbi Shlomo Cunin is the head of Chabad of California and he stated that the Rebbe runs the world and “HE” will take us out of Golus. I’ll agree with you that he’s insane, but why hasn’t he been removed or censured? Finally, we have the belief that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. About ten years ago a Lubavich Rabbi with whom I’m friendly asked me if I had read Dr. Berger’s book. When I told him yes he asked me to pick out a particular point. I told him that Dr. Berger said that 8 senior Rabbis from Oholei Torah declared that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form. My friend responded, “So what’s wrong with that? I can prove it.” He then explained as follows: We know that every Jew has a spark of Elokus, and Rashi said that Moshe Rabbeinu was equal to all the Jews so that means that he had the sparks of Elokus of all 600,000 Jews. Now the Rebbe is the Moshe Rabbeinu of our generation and so he has the sparks of every Jew who ever lived and this equals Hashem. I can assure you that this fellow isn’t crazy. When the Lubavichers are together they invent these insane ideas to justify their deification of the Rebbe. If you can honestly say that you have no issues with the Chabad belief system then you have a much bigger problem than somejewiknow.
To yedl
I’m really impressed. You’re an Ish Emes and that’s rare these days.
To DovidBT
Who is the Chabad leadership? Shlomo Cunin, chief Chabad Rabbi of California? He said that the Rebbe runs the world. How about Manis Friedman. The official head of Chabad is Krinsky but the next time he makes a statement will be the first. I don’t mean to be nasty with you. You seem like a decent fellow, but you have to face the truth.
To somejewiknow
I understand your position, and it has some validity, but it’s not the Derech that I choose to follow. To simply dismiss Chabad as worthless is to ignore the good that they’ve done. Jews need to be able to speak to each other in an open and honest manner, respecting each other’s views. Again, I agree with you that it’s wrong when Chabad celebrates putting Tefilin on an ausvorf like Aharon Barak, but I only attack Manis Friedman because he openly said that one can do any Aveirah and nothing will happen to him.
To DovidBT
There are no questions about Chabad’s Mitzvah performance. That’s impeccable. The problem is the belief system that they’re espousing. It’s a major concern to say the Rebbe is Moshiach, that he’s a Novi, that he runs the world and that he’s god clothed in human form.
To yedl
I apologize for calling you a liar. I would argue that you have no basis upon which to posit that Manis doesn’t mean what he said. He was interviewed by Rabbi Efren Goldberg who challenged him on his statement that Mitzvahs are optional and he refused to recant. I’m impressed that both you and DovidBT have continued the discussion. Generally those who defend Chabad offer one argument and when it’s refuted they disappear.
To the group
You’ll notice how Hakatan clammed up when I asked him to provide proof that Hitler said that he hated Jews because of the Zionists.
To the group
About a week ago yedl stated that those who blame the Rebbe for Chabad’s deviation from Torah true Judaism are “consistent.” He implied that we’re consistently wrong, but he’s correct, we are consistent, because when you tell the truth you don’t have to check your facts. In contrast, the Chabad apologists can’t get their stories straight. Yedl conceded that Manis Friedman did make these heretical statements, but then he tried to excuse it by saying he didn’t mean them. But DovidBT posited that no Chabad Rabbi ever said that Mitzvahs are optional. They really should read each other’s posts before formulating their lies. So why can’t (won’t) the Chabad shills admit the truth, that Chabad is great, but, at the same time, it’s an invalid expression of Judaism? Because it’s very difficult for people to come to grips with truth that goes against personal biases. Yedl said that he’s frum today because of Chabad. That’s wonderful. but it’s no reason not to be Modeh Al Haemes. As for AAQ, since that fool has nothing to add to the discussion. he plays the Qwerty is crazy card. That and a token (or Metrocard) won’t get you very far today.
To Hakatan
Please provide the source for Hitler yms having made such a statement.
To the group
Let me share a story. A good number of years ago I met Rabbi Eliezer Ginsburg shlita in Flatbush. He didn’t know who I was but he gave me a Sholom Aleichem. I responded, “I bought your Haggada a few years ago and I use it at my Seder every year.” He began to gush over me, “Thank you so much. This means so much to me.” Rabbi Ginsburg didn’t need my Haskama, but a kind word goes a long way. Unfortunately, most people who post on line like to insult others. They invent Heterim by arguing that it’s all anonymous. What they’ll discover is that Hashem is all knowing so why not offer encouragement? It doesn’t cost anything.
To the group
We’re dancing around the subject of Chabad Kiruv so I’d like to inject a note of reality. It’s not possible for Chabad to “make people frum” because the Chabad belief system is incompatible with our Mesorah. I’ll explain by relating an incident. About 15 years ago, I attended the Jewish National Retreat, Chabad’s annual convention. At one lecture the Rabbi(don’t recall his name) related the following: “There was a Yemenite boy in Israel about 20 years old who decided to become religious. So he went to one of those “heh, heh, heh” Kiruv Yeshivos(he meant Aish Hatorah). The first day he was there the Rabbi said, “For every Mitzvah you do you get rewarded, and for every sin you get punished. And you know what they do when they punish you? They put you in hell and burn you with coals.” He came back the next day and the Rabbi kept adding more coals to the fire. Finally, at the end of the week the kid couldn’t take it any more and he told the Rabbi, “Why don’t you go to hell?” Then the boy came to Chabad and he found love and now he’s happy. When Manis Friedman said that no Jew can be punished today, he meant it literally because this is the Chabad tradition. But this flies in the face of everything the Torah holds true. Chabad ‘studies” Pirkei Avos but that’s all based on reward and punishment so it doesn’t mean anything to them. Just as they reject Rambam’s criteria for Moshiach. So all Chabad can do is encourage people to do Mitzvos, again emphasizing that Mitzvohs are not obligatory. It also follows that since there’s no punishment for sinners Chabad sees no distinction between those who keep the Torah and those who reject it. Two weeks ago, Chabad got the nonagenarian atheist Israeli judge Aharon Barak to put on Tefilin and now they’re celebrating. Their belief system is completely out of whack. However, this doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t work on the disenfranchised. They’re able to reach people who are out of the purview of mainstream Judaism.
To the group
Jerry Seinfeld had a great joke, “Imagine that there were aliens who came down from “Yenimsvelt” and were observing humans. They’d see dogs relieving themselves and some person picking up for them. Who do you think they’d think is the master?” I thought of this when looking at this thread. If Hitler was alive and was reading it, he would be in Heaven thinking that Jews hate themselves as much as he hates us. How can someone be an Orthodox Jew and not have any basic sense of Menschlichkeit? The NK supporters hate any Jew who they perceive as a Zionist, even if that person is far removed from the Zionist credo. On the other hand, there are frum Jews who have taken it upon themselves to ridicule accepted Gedolim because they take exception with their views. There are certain basic ground rules that must be followed. I haven’t joined in this thread because it’s a Chillul Hashem to say the least.
To Lanky
I have no problem with handing out compliments. Hey, I like your idea for a thread, and that’s why I’m commenting on it. Let me share a personal experience. I write a weekly Dvar Torah which goes out to two of the shuls I attend. It’s unique because I draw Mussar lessons from rock music. When I started about a year ago a few people complimented me. Lately that’s stopped. I’m tempted to ask these people if they still like what I write, but I’m reluctant to do so, because it will look like I’m fishing for praise. Really, what I’m looking for is feedback so I can improve my writing.
To yedl
I appreciate the fact that you have responded to my posts. This shows menschlichkeit but it doesn’t mean that I’m going to give you a pass for what you wrote. You claim that Manis doesn’t mean what he said. Rabbi Miller said, “When a person says something he means it.” We don’t dismiss Mamdani who spoke of globalizing the intifada. Moreover, a few weeks ago there was a thread on VIN which discussed a certain Jewish lowlife (his name escapes me.) As you can imagine, several people pilloried this individual, but then this Lubavich woman excused him as being confused because of the long, bitter Golus. Where do you think she got that from? Not satisfied, I’ll go one better. Manis also said that Mitzvohs are optional. He challenged the definition of Mitzvah as commandment and said that the Mitzvahs we do fulfill G-d’s needs. He was challenged by Rabbi Efren Goldberg on this point, and he refused to back down. So, with all due respect, you have no basis to claim that Manis doesn’t mean the Kefirah that he spouts. By stating that I’m obsessed with Manis you’re implying that I’m unhinged. Nothing could be further from the truth. And when Shlomo Cunin says that the Rebbe runs the world, he also means it Kipshuto. It’s time for people to face the facts about Chabad. While they do much good, their belief system doesn’t jibe with our Mesorah.
To DovidBT
I’m not disagreeing with you. My point is that Chabad and its supporters constantly conflate Kiruv and getting people to do Mitzvahs. So, we’re told that they are Mikarev Yidden all over the world and it’s not true. They try to get Jews to do Mitzvohs. That’s a good thing, but they should be truthful as to their actual mission statement.
To yedl
You ask me to define the word frum, so I’ll do my best. Chazal teach that Hashem and the Torah are one. This means many things but among them is that just as Hashem is indivisible so is the Torah. One cannot say that he believes in Hashem and in the Rebbe, as many Lubavichers do, so too one cannot say that he’ll keep those Mitzvohs that are to his liking. Does that mean that every frum Jew keeps the Torah perfectly? Certainly not. But, for example, if someone spoke Loshon Hora and then he said, “I’ll have to be more careful the next time, he demonstrates that he accepts the Mitzvoh in principle and so he would still qualify as frum. As to your point that it’s Chabad’s approach to take it one Mitzvoh at a time. I have no problem with that. What I take exception to is the propaganda that Chabad is Mikarev Yidden all over the world. Putting on Tefilin on a 90-year-old Mechallel isn’t Kiruv. It’s not a bad thing to do, perhaps, in that merit he’ll get Olam Habo, but it’s deceptive to claim that this is Kiruv.
Now that I’ve answered your questions, would you care to answer mine? Rabbi Manis Friedman has stated that no Jew today can be punished because of the long, bitter Golus? Do you agree with him? He also said that Mitzvahs are optional and we keep them because G-d has needs. Do you also agree with that statement?
To yedl
I totally agree with you. I once read that the Rebbe wrote to one of his early Shluchim who was disappointed because no one had shown up at his Chabad House. The Rebbe said (I’m repeating this from memory so the quote may not be 100% accurate), “If you’re at this place for fifty years and one Jew comes there and makes a Brocho on a can of cola this makes it worth your having been there.” The point is that Chabad, contrary to what we’re told, is not a Kiruv organization it’s a Mitzvah organization. Kiruv means bringing people close to Hashem. This demands total observance. That doesn’t mean that the person changes overnight, but that’s the ultimate goal. Chabad simply wants people to do Mitzvos but there’s no formal commitment to become Shomer Shabbos, keep Kosher etc. On occasion, that happens, but it’s the exception which proves the rule. I also agree with you about the first category. It was the Rebbe who created this brand of Judaism, where Mitzvohs are optional. Now that I’ve responded to your missive, would you care to comment on Yankel Berel’s post that there is a fourth group of Chabad critics, those who see the Rebbe as a great, but flawed individual?To anon1m0us
I loved your point, but this isn’t reserved for those who post on line. People generally learn to convince themselves that their position is correct. To that end they latch on to a Chazal and reject any equally valid statements which differ with their Chazal.
To yedl
I’d like to address two of your comments. First, I agree with your assessment that today’s iteration of Chabad was crafted by the Rebbe e.g. the belief that he’s Moshiach and that he’s a Novi etc. But you dismiss those who criticize the Rebbe by arguing that we’re guilty of committing terrible sins. Throughout Jewish history there have been Talmidei Chachamim who were challenged. Shabbetai Tzvi, Doeg and Eisav immediately come to mind, so how can you just write off those who have questioned the Rebbe’s positions?
To Square_Root
You’re right that Chabad won’t listen but it isn’t Chabad that we have to reach, it’s the non-Lubavichers who defend them . I hope that proud sefaradi is going to make them think