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Just a thought.. by the way.
Any one person who does not follow EXACTLY as their parents, and their parents before them, and their parents before them, and their parents before them, etc., have ALL gone “off the derech” so to speak.
Additionally, unless each and every one of you know the exact specific details of why an individual has gone frei, secular, irreligious atheist or otherwise, it is certainly not your place to determine whether or not one is going to hell.
Some of us have lived in hell most of our “religious” lives.
And, to answer a question that I erronously did not respond to earlier, I have great faith in God, just none in people. Having read a majority of the forums on this website, I am sure that many of you can garner a small glimpse into why. I am not an atheist, just not religious.
By the way, there are a great many “frum” psychotherapists. I put “frum” in quotations because I do not believe that any one person is still living exactly k’halacha. Some of our sins may be more obvious than others, but none of us can state with clarity that we live exactly as we should. And before any of you deny this, read the posts that call others’ on here names, state that they are going to burn, harass others, or speak lashon horah. Perhaps some of you choose not to follow a certain tradition, mayhaps did something that not have asked forgiveness for it, did not pray with enough concentration once, or so on, cheated the government on taxes or perhaps took food stamps, medicaid or other benefits when one was certainly not entitled to them because one could have worked, but chose not to, did not take care of their body, smoked (which could be looked at as a slow form of suicide?), did not give their 10% of all income every time, did not pay their taxes,took money under the table, cheated or mistreated another Jew, embarassed someone, did something without asking rabinnical counsel (and the Yeshiva World is NOT rabinnical counsel), was disrespectful to a child, did not always act “al kiddush hashem”…need I go on?
I said that I would be open to answering questions, what I will not do, is justify my actions to the likes of individuals on here who will attempt, poorly, to shame me into pretending to feel bad for the lifestyle that I have chosen.
I do not feel shame nor regret. I have never in my life hit another, certainly not in anger. But not a single member of my immediate family, including my decesased father, could have said that, and that includes my ex husband, who beat me, and continues to lay hands on my children in anger. That, is not what Torah intended. And, for a “rav” to state with clarity that I may have done something to “deserve” that, is also completely uncalled for, and does not deserve the title that his smicha paper is written on.
Just a thought.
To Clarify:
Which I am happy to do (by the way). My ex husband and I shared a yeshivaworld account. When we were married, he posted here, and we could not afford basic necessities. He spent all day online, did not look for work, chose not to in fact, and he drank, a lot. All the money that we had, from me working, went towards my schooling, our yeshiva tuition for our children, and his drinking binges.
NOW, I am divorced, I have finished my education, and yes, I live well, and I have changed the password on this account, and it is mine. If he wants an account, he can figure out how to get one on his own.
In terms of me being a status symbol, it is exactly as it sounds. My family saw me as a status symbol, not as a child. When I did something right, they took the credit for it. When not, they threw me in the trash, as they saw I belonged (Vochindik, feel free to add your comment here, I am sure you will anyhow).
No, I am not a troll, no, the Moderators are not confused. I am now divorced, I do not drink, nor do I do drugs. The money that I have is either invested (well) or I spend it on my children. I live well because I don’t waste like my ex did. I cannot, nor will I take responsibility for the posts that he put up. I also will not apologize for what he wrote. I can’t.
1. I have the “warm fuzzies” for anyone who is harassed in any of these forums, solely because they believe differently than the vast majority.
2. Willing to be open towards answering questions, does not mean willing to be open towards entertaining the idea of returning to frum judaism and dealing with the likes of closeminded *&^% like some of the people here.
3. Pizza Pizza, I am so sorry, but no, you’re so far off the mark. I was raised with delicious food, lots of d’vrei torah, lots of singing and so on.
4. I do not believe in organized religion and I do not attend any Jewish services at all at this time. The time may come when I might change my mind on that, but right now, that is not going to happen.
5. I was raised in a very “Yeshivish” but not chasidish community. It was not anti college, and not pro college. It just was. My reasons for making the decision to go where I went has more to do with the people involved in the religion (see above) than the religion itself.
6 @groisanachas:
I cannot respond fairly to your question, because I do not feel that my parents ever love/loved me.
I was a status symbol. Nothing more, nothing less.
Oh. And all, please ignore “vochindik”, who takes a perverse pleasure in following me from forum to forum harassing me. He is one of many reasons I will never return to Yiddishkeit. If I will burn in hell, I will at least have neighbors that I know well. Vochindik, your lease is signed, sealed and delivered.
Whoops, I guess I lowered myself. That won’t happen again.
Good afternoon all,
Several responses to all of you. First of all, I have never “done drugs”, I have never “partied” nor have I drank heavily, or lived a lifestyle such as that. I did not choose to become frei in order to live an immoral lifestyle. I never did, nor do I act in an immoral fashion, I don’t run around, nor act in a promiscuous fashion. I was raised in a neglectful home, and essentially was treated differently than my siblings, but that is not why I went frei. I still have respect for my family, and respect their choices, though they have little to none for mine, and that is their prerogative. I do not hate nor resent them, and before my father died, I forgave him, though I am sure he passed hating me, I will never know, and frankly, it’s sad, but I made my peace with his indifference towards me long ago.
I am the only successful member of my family. I have an education (Ph.d) and a successful career, both of which I acheived on my own, and live quite well, in spite of the many hateful emails I am still receiving from the members of the “god fearing, religious, frum” members of the former community in which I used to live, telling me that I should just kill myself and make everyone happy (that’s one of the nicer ones), and in spite of the fact that it has been close to 3 years since I made my choice. I do not dress like a streetwalker, I do not look like a prostitute, nor do I dress like one. I make a point to dress with modesty, not because of religion, but because I prefer not to “show my wares” to everyone.
I will not give out my entire story, because again, had I wished to be continuously attacked, I would have stayed within the community that I had originally lived. Second of all, I did make the choice to become not frum. It was a choice, pure and simple, and one that I made with complete and total clarity after weighing all my options (not that I felt I had too many after years of abuse and neglect).
I would like I state with clarity however, that to compare someone becoming not frum and someone committing suicide are two completely different things. The American Psychological Society (of which I am a member) does not condone suicide because they feel that suicide, while debated amongst psychological professionals as ethical or otherwise, should be one’s choice only if it is a full informed decision. Since one is unable to make that determination because one is never aware of what actually occurs after death, one is physically or emotionally able to make a fully comprehensive informed decision about the finality of the decision of suicide.
Now, as to the remained of your questions: I read one comment about a menahelet making certain inappropriate comments to students that she removed from her school about them being scum and so on, well, I had that in my school, to students who were still in the school, primarily to students that were not amongst the wealthy and priviledged (or deemed intelligent enough). But that’s not the reason I chose to make the decision I did.
I will answer specific questions. BUT, because of how I was treated in other threads, and by other members in other threads, I will not tell my story, and I will not respond to one single member whom I feel is disrespectful or dismissive. I will not lower myself to their standards. And, by the way, to the one member who made the comment about going off the derech being an emotional decision rather than an informed one, I have to state, with clarity, that this is completely erronous. The decision I made was both INFORMED and EMOTIONAL. But, please don’t think for one second, that I did not think it through thoroughly. I was very well aware of what I was giving up. And I was well informed, both before and after, by everyone involved, through nasty telephone calls, hate mail, hate email, things thrown at my home, and other “messages”.
My view of yiddishkeit, is not that it is “the best”. Quite the opposite.
Not disagreeing. One should have respect for the president of the country in which they live. Their fates are in his/her hands.
I am OTD. I would be happy to respond to questions as to why, as an adult (and yes, I am an adult, and did not go OTD until I was well into adulthood) I chose to become not frum (yes, it was a choice).
But, the only way I would do so, is if I was not attacked here. And since I doubt that this would happen, since I often see the moderators allowing many posts that allow these attacks to take place, I am not sure that my input would matter.
@ Health,
Topic, not You Chas V’shalom. I personally, attempt not to harass any one specific person in general unless attacked first. Thus, if you felt attacked, I whole heartedly apologize.
You know, it would be prudent to remember that we as Jews live in this country at the will and mercy of non Jews, and that we still have to have respect for the President of the United States, whether we like, or appreciate his attitudes, or morals, or not. Putting this sort of vitrole online for all to see is wrong.
This topic disgusts me..
@Health you stated to Dolphina that “I got news for you, it’s not Frum people’s job to make everybody Frum, but it is their job to speak the truth.”
I don’t know one single person in this world, frum or otherwise who always speaks the truth. It is absolutely not a frum person’s job to speak the truth. It is a frum person’s job to serve their creator. How that person chooses to do that is between that person, and his/her creator.
Come Yom Kippur, every individual is required to ask mechilah from those that they may have wronged, on the internet, in public, in private, or anywhere else before we can ask mechilah from the one above. There is a reason for that, and is is not ok to go around bashing others, and being all self righteous, judgemental. And yes, for those of you that want to tell me that I am being condescending (you’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m certainly not going to take that away from you, since I most definitely have my opinions of you, that may be, but what these threads do are WRONG.
There is NO VALUE to them. NONE.
All they do is breed hate, prejudice, distaste, dislike, disgust, and intolerance for one another.
These threads are NOT a replacement for a rav. They are not replacements for friends. They are not replacements for a therapist! All these threads do is BREED HATRED. No Wonder Mochiach hasn’t come yet! He’s reading these threads and saying “I don’t want to be down there!”
Regardless of whether or not the Moderators are 100 percent certain that that that one poster is another, wouldn’t it be better just to delete their posts or not post them at all, than to humiliate another in public?
I’m appalled and frankly, saddened at the fact that the posts in the “Yeshiva World” coffee room (which really should just be called the “New York/New Jersey Coffee Room” are permitted to attack pretty much anyone who doesn’t agree with the standards of anyone else, and yes, I will include myself in this (before anyone else jumps on me here). But for a Moderator to do it, is completely uncalled for. A moderator should moderate, facilitate, host, whatever definition one wants to use, but to jump on the bandwagon of attacking another in public doesn’t exactly bring about the warm and fuzzy feelings towards jews in any way shape or form. Regardless of who is reading the posts. If a poster is a problem, delete his/her accounts or posts, or whatever, but to humiliate them is wrong, and frankly a waste of time, because if that person’s point is to bring attention to themselves, then all the moderator is doing, is giving that person exactly what they want.
I’m not sure what disturbs me more, some of the comments in some of these threads, or the fact that the Moderator carelessly comments in such a nasty fashion, thus humiliating another in public.
@Yitzhockm
I realize that I’m going against what I said about not posting again, but I am going to add one thing to here.
You stated something about my “own father” in an earlier post. I would like to inform you, kindly, that my father is deceased. But allow me to thank you for rubbing salt in a very open wound. Again, you’ve done a beautiful job of making my point for me. Something you must have learned from your own obviously holy parents. They must be so very proud. Good for you.
Just out of curiosity,
Why is this bickering, name calling, nasty and pettyness any less of an aveyrah than say.. oh, not keeping kosher or shabbat?
From what I understand, shaming someone, publicly or otherwise, bringing blood to their face, is akin to murder, so wouldn’t that mean that those of you that are being just so kind and nice to one another are just as sinful as the Modern Orthodox, Frei, or irreligious that you are always harping on?
You may now all jump down my throat and attack me. Go right ahead…. waiting.. waiting… waiting…
@YehudaTzvi
I can’t tell you how nice it is that you are doing this. I recognize that there are those that would tell you that you are doing wrong, but considering that you were fired by this man, you are doing a wonderful thing for learning for his neshomah.
There should be more yidden like you in this world. In the merit of what YOU are doing, may we see more joy in this world.
Thank you to those that have responded positively. To those that have nothing nice to say, I am not shocked. You probably learned that from your parents.
In the interest of saving myself any more grief, I will not be responding to any more posts in this thread.
1. yes, I used to share the account with my ex. Still, not the point.
2. Many of you are doing a beautiful job of making my point for me, so thank you for that.
3. My life choices are not up for debate. Whether you believe me or not, is not a care of mine. The point is, abuse is rampant in the frum community. Believe it or not, you can deny deny deny, but it IS out there.
4. “Rabbi” or “Mr” Boteach, is disgusting. The fact is, frum or not, no matter who or what some of you think I am, I would not discuss my sex life with anyone in public, whether I had a title in front of my name or not. I did not go on national television and discuss with Roseanne Barr, Madonna, or Michael Jackson how to live and have a better sex life, in order to make a holy dollar. Shmuely Boteach did. The Torah is supposed to be a guideline for modesty. This may come as a shock, but it is possible to be modest and not frum. It is also possible to claim to be God fearing and still be abusive, neglectful, vindictive, petty, mean and nasty (as some of you are doing a fabulous job of showing, so thanks again).
I did not join this discussion to be further abused by more “frum” Jews. I could have stayed firmly in the community I used to live in for that. I will say this: Again, many of you have done a great job of affirming my thoughts of frumkeit.
Moderator: Please consider leaving this post up. I will not be joining in this discussion further. I have had enough abuse from the Frumma Yidden in here, but perhaps this will cause some “very holy” people in here to realize that pushing someone who has already had enough abuse, further away, is not going to gain them a seat next to anyone Holy after 120 years.
FYI: Faranuk Margolis wrote an excellent book called “Off the Derech” Some of you holy people should consider reading it.
Yitzchokm,
I do not care one way or the other if you believe me or not.
The story is what it is. A community does not need to support someone, but they should not be saying things to his/her children, or about them in front of their children.
I am not a BUM (as you’ve so eloquently put it) because I have chosen not to be frum. Name calling however, does clearly make both my point, as well as Ms. Pearl’s. The TORAH does not permit name calling, regardless of your thoughts. You do not have the right to call me names because you do not like my choices. Aside from the fact that it is a violation of the “Coffee Room” Rules, it is also a Torah violation. But, that doesn’t seem to bother you too much, hmmm?
My family has disowned me, and did take my abusive ex in. However, they did so PRIOR to me becoming non religious. And, my choice in not being frum was in part, due to their choice in taking him in. And it was the greatest gift they could have ever given me, and I thank God for it daily.
I am not frum at all, which was, frankly, not the point of my post. The point of my post, was that what this woman went through is not an isolated incident. The fact is, that this occurs all the time, and many women are afraid to say something because they are afraid of losing everything they have.
You can stick your head in the sand all you want. It does not change the facts that are there. Period.
I am relatively sure that the moderator will remove this comment, though I hope not, since this is important…
I am going through the same thing as this “model mom”, though not in NYC, and not in public, and I will never go public, since it’s a huge chillul hashem, and I do not believe in that.
From some of the therapists and experts that I have been dealing with, some of the frum, this is NOT an isolated incident, and this happens far more than it should.
I will say, that I watched the program, and it was rather disturbing and disgusting on ALL levels. A few things that were said that I can agree with: Mr. Boteach is a disgusting human being, and Ms. Pearl stated that while Judaism is a beautiful thing, there are corruptions in the system, that often result in corruptions in personality. That, is absolutely true. She did state that the Torah is not meant to be lived like this, and I cannot help but agree. The way a lot of formerly frum women are being treated is a huge reason why so many are chased away from the lifestyle.
MODERATOR: I sincerely hope that you will leave the post up. It really is important.
Putting visene in someone’s “anything” is illegal, and can be prosecutable by the law, depending on how ill the person became. If the person becomes sick enough, you could be gacing attempted murder charges; at the very least malicious intent.
And, why would you want to pull pranks on anyone? If they are your worst enemy, you should not bother giving them the time of day.
Perhaps the child went OTD because of the parent and the child wants nothing to do with the parent.
What should the children be doing?
Here is a list for all of you EDITED that have the children, but can’t think of what to do to entertain them.
Read a book.
Do an art project
bake cookies
make bread or challah
watch a video
play a game inside or outdoors
go to the mall
go to the zoo
go to a park
learn
teach your child to do something new (sewing does not have to be for girls only)
color
make edible play dough
clean a room with your child
go through your child’s clothing with them to determine what they need
spend time talking with them and see what is going on with them lives
read something to or with your child (no matter how old they are)
teach your child to do the laundry
Interesting thought here… New York is ONE state out of fifty. Jews live in a lot of other places that do NOT have the Catskills, and frankly, many people did not have the financial ability to send their children to camp, the Catskills, bungalows, or anywhere else this year, and are probably still paying off tuition from last year or years past. I do not know about any of the people outside of “holy” New York, but I kept my children home an entire summer. My wife and I could not afford camp. Right now, we cannot afford more than the bare minimum of groceries, so camp is a luxury. The concept that your children need to be entertained every second of every day by someone else is absurd! If you have them, you should be able to take care of them!
Ahhh Joseph… as character witnesses, you are quoting a man known as a cross dresser, and someone who was abusive to animals… yeah.. that’s going to make your point strong.
Yid613,
Frankly, with the attitude you have, you have no business being in any form of Jewish education, administration or otherwise. You would put children in public schools, the very worst places for children with delicate neshamos, and punish the children because the parents are suffering?
Somehow, I doubt that you are in PERSONAL (as you put it) debt, but if you are, than join the rest of us that work three or four jobs, and still cannot afford tuition and groceries and utilities.
Teachers, Rabbeim, and Moros work very very hard. We take telephone calls during dinner, bedtime, children’s time, our time, before school, after school, etc. We grade papers, do paperwork and make up exams, many times for multiple types of learners, and spend far more than 40+ hours doing it. We do not get paid extra for it. Yes, it is our jobs, and yes, it is our choice, but understand that you sit behind a desk. Occasionally you might deal with discipline issues, but for the most part, you sit behind a desk, go to luncheons, have air conditioning, drive nicer cars, often do not have to pay full or any tuition for your children, deduct your many “business” trips to Florida or Israel as business expenses, even when you take your entire families. We work (and I am an English teacher, and Frum) up until the day of Yom Tov, or late on Fridays (yes, there are still schools, frum Yeshivish ones, that still have full days on Fridays) and every day in between, at the sacrifice of our families and our personal lives, and frankly, often our sanity.
Many don’t realize this, especially administrations, but the teachers that really care, those of us that are doing this to make a difference, even though we cannot afford it, we take our jobs home with us. We cry over our students at night. We see domestic violence situations, drug and alcohol abuse, and undiagnosed or mistreated learning, health, or behavioral issues. We are always thinking of our students, and how we can make their lives better, and just because the bell rings and we leave, does not mean that we leave our students behind.
So, frankly, the fact that you can even say that a person DESERVES to put their children in public school, because you feel that the parents are ingrates, when in truth they are more than likely just looking for a way to put food on the table without having to beg, borrow or steal, in addition to paying asinine amounts of tuition, is disgusting, and you have no business being in education.
Everyone else. Thank your teachers. No one else does.
Oh please,
Friends EXPECT to be reimbursed for expenses? If they cannot afford it, they should not go.