@CharlieHall

Sadly enough, do you think that there are no “frum” jews who are considered highly moral and ethical, who do not chat on their wives, taxes, beat their children and treat their employees exceptionally poorly? Do you think that there are no frum yidden that go out daily and cause tremendous chillul hashems?

Again, he cheated on his wives. Well, there are many places in this world where multiple partners are permitted (and in some cases, encouraged). They are only immoral because those are not your personal beliefs of our social mores. That doesn’t mean that those people don’t have ethics.
As For lying.. you have never lied? Do you consider yourself a moral person? Can you say with complete certainly that you have always treated employees with the respect they deserve? That you have never ever cheated anyone? That you’ve always paid your cleaning ladies, maids, landscapers, etc., fairly and never argued over pennies with them?
I don’t know what you do, or who you are obviously… but by your definition, no one in the world has morals. None of us are perfect. We all make mistakes. I consider myself a highly moral and ethical person. I stand up for what I believe in, and have thought my children to do the same. BUT, I’m not frum, so, does that mean that I, too, am an immoral person because I don’t have the same beliefs that you do?

I think that the first point of morals in any discussion is the difference between morals and ethics.
Morals are society’s definition of right versus wrong (keeping in mind that different societies have different morals)
Ethics are whether or not you choose to FOLLOW the “rules” set by the society you CHOOSE to live in.

Religion, yiddishket, frum, charedi, whatever term you want to use, is a society of it’s own, but each sect has it’s own concept of what is moral. And it’s not our place to judge or determine that one sect’s moral code is wrong just because it’s different than another’s interpretation of Talmud or Gemorrah when it comes to halachah. That being said, it is difficult to have a true conversation on morals (and ethics) in Torah, because if two people are having a halachic discussion and they are from different sects, they will have different interpretations of what is morally right or wrong, and they would both be correct,
It’s like the “Schroedinger’s Cat” (physics example, look it up) of religion.

Just my two cents.

A good rule of thumb is 1/2 lb of meat per person, even if that person is a child. It’s best to have more than not to have enough.

@Rand0m3x

It just kind of hugs you, like a nice bowl of hot creamy soup on a freezing cold day. 🙂

Oh for the love of Pete…

HOW MANY ACCOUNTS DO YOU HAVE!?!?

<Eye Roll> It’s amazing… my eyeballs get so much exercise reading these pages thy are the most well developed muscles I have…

In truth, when someone has a firm belief in anything, there is little chance that anyone can sway them to another point of view. I used to teach my students that it was important for them to be able to SEE another’s point of view, even if one does not AGREE with their point of view. Granted, this is something that actually takes practice.

Regardless of who I vote for, I can understand, even though I heartedly disagree with, other peoples’ opinions and thoughts regarding who they choose to vote for. Being able to see, even understand another’s point of view, is a very useful skill to have, and frankly, it makes arguing with someone who is a complete lackwit (of which there appear to be an inordinate number of here), a lot of fun.

@workingbuchor95

You are openly admitting that you are planning on going into a marriage where you won’t know if the poor girl who would marry you, is 100% in line with your hashkafos, you would divorce her. Are you SERIOUS??? In the Yeshivish velt, the couple dates for the long period of all of two weeks or so, so there is really no possible wa y to know everything about your potential spouse… and you are ALREADY planning a divorce? What girl or parents in her/their right mind(s) would go near you??? You don’t go into a marriage planning a divorce! Marriage is very difficult young man! It’s difficult under the best of circumstances, and you are talking about someone who has to be in line with you a thousand percent. Such a thing is never going to happen. You are not marrying a Stepford wife. You are not marrying someone who was raised specifically to marry YOU, you are marrying someone who, believe it or not, thinks, has brains, and who speaks (often for herself). If you want someone who is a million percent in line, marry an Arabic woman in a Burka, because that’s as close as you will get to complete and total blind obedience.
<shaking my head> I truly have sympathy for the girl you end up marrying, and her family… because your expectations are completely unrealistic.

@workinbochur

You are very very young…so I will share with you two things with you that I have instilled in my children and that I sincerely hope you carry eith you and learn from.

1. “Lashon” is paramount. Dont say something you dont mean. Ever. So THINK before you speak. You used verbiage in your original post, whether you meant it or not, used wording you now regret, it does not matter, you still used the word “allowed”. And thatcword, with respect to a decision about dating or marriage shoukd be carefully thought out and considered.
ALWAYS think before you speak, and especially before you type, post or “submit” button.

Abd two, and what I remind my daughter especially of, is this: if you want to marry a person of good strong character, then YOU also have to have good strong character.

And finally, three is thst NO MATTER who a person is, where they come from/grew up, what their “yichus: is that rehardless of who their family is, what race etc., the ONLY thing that matters is if that person is a God Fearing MENTCH. Without mentchlichkeit, even the wealthiest person n.v has NOTHING.

Why do i tell you this specifivally? Because your posts, all of them on this thread, have lacked thought snd mentchlichkeit. You are defensive and closed off to understanding and comprehending what it isvthat others are telling you.
Most of all, i genuinely believe that you posted this to irritate and rile people up, and i believe you are quite disingenuous.

@Workingbochur95

Reading is such a vital part of education… perhaps the co-ed school you went to did not adequately educate you. I did not say one single word about having any specific type of machtonim has diddly to do with cattle. My comment about being treated like cattle was on the “presumption” that a parent would or would not “allow” a child to turn down a date. I sincerely hope that by the time you reach a true age of wisdom, you never force your child to go out with anyone… and if you will notice, I did specifically state “why these girls should be allowed to turn down” ALLOWED???? You put a ring through the nose of a COW in order to force them to go where you want them to go. Girls, are not COWS.

@workingbochur

Not only would I ALLOW her to turn down such a shidduch, I would ENCOURAGE it. Better single and happy than married and treated like cattle.

@rightwriter

Couples that marry, especially in the religious world, at 17, 18, 19, have NO concept of what love is. A couple that decides to marry should respect and like one another. Love comes later. You are being unrealisitic if you think, even for one moment, that a teenager knows what love is. Respect, they know, enjoying another’s company they know, love, they do not know. Additionally, allow me to remind you that the problem with “standards” and “money” and other such nonsense is a problem with boys and their families too, not just with girls. If there is a shidduch crisis, it is because both the boys and the girls are making it so.

To add more of my “cents” in…
A pharmacological solution is not, in of itself, a solution. Any person, but especially a child who has the need for pharmacological assistance, needs to be cognizant that medication is an “assist”. It is not a solution. A child needs to understand that he or she has the ability to have control over his or her behavior. The medication will not “fix” the behavior problem, rather, it will give the individual time to “pause” and consider what would be best behavior choice.
Medication should never be used on its own. It should be used in conjunction with a mental health professional.

Actually, I know that @Rational was speaking tongue in cheek, and thought it was rather amusing… but..then again, weird things tend to entertain me.

To Laskern

Interesting point you bring up… but not all teachers are like that rebbe BUT…
My children attended a school while we were going through some very difficult things as a family. Because of the importance and unfortunately trauma of these issues, the school had to be aware of what was going on, and so were the teachers. These issues went on for several years, but, we insisted and instructed each and every teacher that the expectation of the child should not, under ANY circumstances be lowered. In spite of what we as a family were dealing with, our children had a tremendous amount of love, support and stability, and the children received mental health assistance as well. They had a solid and warm support system.

In spite of that, several of my eldest child’s teachers told us that they were treating our child differently, because they had sympathy for the situation and did not want to put added stress or pressure on the child. Thus, they significantly lowered their expectations, causing the child abject misery for the remainder of their educational career

Another child, who happens to have special needs was placed in the mainstream class with the rest of their classmates. Unfortunately, the city that we were living in, did not (at that time) have any “official” services for students with this child’s type of need (long story). So, the child received an “aide” to assist them with their studies.
The “aide” was a newly married, fresh faced from Israel individual who knew virtually nothing about education short of what they had seen when they were in school. Ironically, I was this individual’s teacher for one year, during my extremely long educational career before I switched careers. Throughout the school year, I would receive several disrespectful emails (maybe got three over the course of the year) from the “aide” regarding my child’s actions and education, progress or lack thereof and so on. The emails were short, did not address any true nor accurate information, and essentially stated that my child would never succeed and the aide did not know why they were wasting their time.

This was not ONE email. This was the tone of EVERY email. In response, I very civilly sent back curt, but kind emails thanking this “aide” for all they did… whatever that was. My child LOVED this aide. I suspect it was because the aide did not require anything from my child, and left my child to their own devices. For my child, it was books and reading.. so, that’s what they did, all during class, all during recess, they never went outside and played, did not play during gym, did not play with other children, did nothing but read for an entire year. This, as you can imagine, thrilled and delighted me, but unfortunately, I was extremely limited in how I could handle the situation.

At the end of the school year I contacted this aide and had a frank conversation with them. I asked the aide if they LIKED my child.
Of course, the immediate response was yes.
I then asked about the emails, the few and far between once, and the tone within. From this aide, whom I had taught well over 20 years before when they were in 2nd grade, had the nerve to say to me “Parents have to respect me. It is not my job to contact parents, if they need something, they have to contact me. You should feel lucky I sent you anything at all” I will respect YWN by NOT repeating what I said to the aide after that.
Then I asked the aide again, if they LIKED my child. Again, the immediate response was yes. I responded with the following (and this is actually the point of my story).
“All teachers will not like all their students. I am well aware that you do not like my child. The tones of your email and your disrespectful attitude throughout this conversation clearly reflect that. It is OK for a teacher not to like a child It is something that happens, and you are NOT going to like every child that comes your way. I KNOW you don’t like my child, and that’s OK. What is NEVER OK is for either the parents OR the child to EVER know that you do not like them. EVER.”

Children with special needs or labels frequently have lower expectations required of them, and are often the target of bullies in school. It’s sad that some of those bullies are the adults.

@The Little I know.
1. Thank you.
2. I am going to ramble, and go from subject to subject, and probably lose you a few times because I have MANY squirrel moments as I like to call them. I am SEVERELY ADHD AND ADD, but still managed to stay focused enough to get my many worthless pieces of expensive paper without drugs.
3. I both agree and disagree with some of what you wrote. You are correct that the yeshivos and even the public schools are filled to beyond capacity. However, the interplay between discipline and education often don’t work because the rebbeim and teachers are not taught HOW to teach. Often they are people who need jobs within that community, and poof, instant teacher. But they are not teachers nor instructors. In the “days of old” you had rebbeim and teachers smacking or hitting the students with rulers or even worse, with their hands, causing the children to fear both going to school and learning. This caused generations of students not only to hate learning, but to harbor decades and decades of resentment towards schools, religion, families, and so on, only causing more pain, which often then manifested more abuse, whether in families or in communities.

Sadly, violence often begets violence, and cycles perpetuate themselves unless consciously broken (which is a very difficult thing to do).

These days, there are more educated rebbeim and teachers and morahs even, but it’s rare to find any of these people holding valid state teachers licenses. It’s not like college or university is strongly encouraged. But when it comes to educating our children, education of the teachers should be TOP priority, and it’s really not.

There is a blatant lack of respect that is almost subconsciously encouraged by the schools in how their “English” or General Studies teachers are treated. Regardless if that teacher is frum or not, the English and General Studies teachers are often paid far less, not treated the same with regards to “Bonuses” at yomim tovim or summer break, and left out at Chanukah time because they are (as I was told for many years) “just an English teacher” (even though for quite a large number of years I was the ONLY teacher in the entire school to hold a valid teachers license). Children see that, and learn from it.

Keep in mind btw, that because I was “just an English teacher” I was not entitled to maternity/paternity leave when my children were born, causing terrible financial hardship. But again, that did not matter because I was “just an English teacher”. But I digress… going back to your comment….

A well trained teacher or rebbe knows exactly how to handle both education and discipline in his/her classroom, and can do so without interrupting the flow of the class. A really good teacher/rebbe will keep the ‘troublemaker’ in class, and will adapt his/her teaching style to those of the children in his/her class. For example, a teacher might teach the same unit in visual, audible, and tactile styles, ensuring that all the learning styles of the class are met. And a teacher for older students will ask their students how they learn best, since by high school most children know in what way the information sticks with them. A VERY good teacher will make sure to adapt his or her lessons each year to ensure that the material does not get boring, and that the students will actually learn something year to year. The teacher cannot be bored with his or her lesson either, because that will translate to the students getting bored. The first year I taught, I leaned against the door jam as I was lecturing, and essentially bored myself to sleep. I realized that if I was bored enough to fall asleep WHILE talking/teaching, my students were even more so. I immediately changed everything about the way that I taught.

Teaching and educational methods, along with ways to ensure that lessons work, how to evaluate those lessons, and how to deal with children with behavioral needs, special needs, ADHD and ADD children, even children on the pervasive development scale, could all have those needs met in a multi stage and mainstream classroom, but these methods that are taught, and often taught WELL in college. But, college educated teachers are far and few between in yeshivos and day schools.

3. You are absolutely correct about cookie cutter lessons, but again, there are ways for a creative teacher to “spice” those lessons up, and change them, even slightly, from year to year. What unfortunately does not change, is that schools that get any money from the government for any reasons, are required to have their students take state exams of some kind, all of which are standardized. Thus, the teacher finds him or herself teaching to a test, which is basically a lot of useless information that the children will never, ever use.

Additionally, there are a large number of extremely bright, intelligent children, who do not test well, and therefore, are then labeled and stuck in classes that are not good for them, often boring, etc. (which can then cause additional problems), all because of an asinine test that hasn’t changed since its inception, and is essentially a tool that sets many children up for failure. And those children, because they have been improperly labeled or tagged, will therefore never have their true educational needs met.

Norms, as you state, are a very very dangerous thing. By definition, and of course statistically, a child that doesn’t meet that specified percentage of the “norm”, or doesn’t quite meet the required numbers, is then statistically set up for failure each and every year post that first test. The first failure that a child becomes vitally aware of, will be the measurement that both they, and the schools, will measure them for the remainder of their academic career. Making a predetermined norm is likely one of the most destructive things that schools, as well as diagnosticians could have possibly done.

I could give an individual an assessment and if that individual scores a 31 or higher on certain scales, they would be “predetermined” to be a psychopath, exhibit psychopathic behaviors, etc. If that individual becomes aware of their score, they then have an excuse to behave in an inexcusable manner, saying “well, this is what I am because someone told me that this is what I am. Take it up with them”. If the person has no knowledge of where he or she falls on the psychopathy checklist, he or she could end up becoming something brilliant and amazing. Perhaps he or she goes on to cure cancer. That person never takes advantage of his potential situation just because they might fall on a scale set up by a person or group of people who think one way and one way only.

And, it is in my personal opinion, that conforming to any predetermined norm has the potential to be very dangerous. People become sheeple instead of potential leaders, children with exceptional imaginations have them lectured or beaten out of them, when the imagination could have created something amazing. Conformation… is dangerous if not done correctly. We are not encouraging our children to be something amazing and wonderful, something different. We are telling them to do exactly what the rest of the children do. So, if the rest of the children act like vilde chayas, then we are telling our child, conform to that, that’s the way to do it. If as adults, the general norm is to cheat and lie on one’s taxes, and then use HUD, Welfare, Medicaid and food stamps… that’s the norm that we anticipate out children will conform to. But it’s still not right, even if everyone else is doing it.
Additionally, I want to add something that is “hinted to” but not stated outright. Just because a child is different in how he or she thinks, or that individual questions G-d, or even his or her religious observance, does not mean that this person is mentally ill or unstable. And, it is exceptionally important in today’s day and age, that we not immediately insist that people who act differently, perhaps not as “expected” or a person does not “conform” to something he or she is morally, ethically, or simply just opposed to, immediately run to seek mental health assistance. We do a tremendous disservice to people when we take someone who does not conform, and stick them with a mentally ill tag.

@Syag Lchochma

Thank you. Interestingly enough, I’m anything but. I won’t put my name, Hebrew or otherwise on here, but.. if you daven.. please keep me in mind.

Thanks

Sparkly and Thinking out Loud..

two things. I worked in kiruv for many years. That in of itself should tell you something. One thing that I learned in high school, which I believed but never believed… was that when you sweep the floor, the floor gets cleaned up, but no matter how good the broom is, it will get dirty. and two, NCSY is great for teenagers. What about those of us in the ADULT population? Like thirties, forties and up?

Hi Ben Levi,

Thank you for your response. Allow me to counterpoint…

1. I was in the same boat as you. Instead of being rushed to the Emergency Room, I was maligned and told that there was no other excuse for my behavior other than to be addicted to narcotics.

It took me passing out, being misdiagnosed and then wrongly medicated, having my heart stop, and extreme measures taken (Thank goodness my DNR was overlooked, too) for me to get the medical attention I desperately needed. I was then diagnosed with a potentially terminal illness that has taken me years to deal with having and getting somewhat under control.

Does that mean that I no longer see doctors? Does it mean I no longer see people? Of course not. In fact, I have made my living serving others. However, I no longer see THOSE doctors or go to THAT hospital, and I am significantly more wary, suspicious and hesitant to see any medical professional that I don’t fully and completely trust unless I feel that my life is in danger, in which case I immediately request an ombudsman from the hospital or a medical advocate to speak with and for me.

2. I realize that this is a widely unpopular opinion, but your OPINION is that Torah is the road map for the map of life. If/when someone gets lost, they can pull over and stop their trip, they can take a break and regroup or they can ask for directions. IF when they ask for directions, they are again and again given the wrong directions, at some point, they will stop asking.

Regardless, thank you for your comments.

Syag Lchochma,

I am doing very well thank you. I don’t know what blog you are referring to… But I am more than happy to communicate privately with you if the Moderators are willing to mediate an email address exchange.

That’s entirely up to them.

I have thrived. I’m no longer part of the abusive community or family I was. I am thank god far far away and happy that way.

I won’t tell you that there arent things from the past that I don’t miss, because that would be a lie, and one thing that I promised myself I would not do any longer is play into the “lies, manipulations and word games” that were perpetrated in the community I was part of once upon a time, however, what I do not miss, and never will, is the shaming part that went along with trying to get someone to come back to the “fold”. Shaming someone will only push the person further away, and at the end of the day, the fact is IF that person comes back it’s because they can’t make it on their own, not necessarily because they wish to.

That’s not a reason to be religious.

Reb Dovid,bit sounds to me like you are looking for an excuse to break up with this girl. Give her her name so I can call her and warn her away from you. You sound archaic and selfish, not to mention absolutely and completely intolerant, and no one should have to live with that. I hope you and your rav are very happy together.

I can’t understand why this thread is still up, and hasn’t been closed by the Moderator yet. All the other “OTD” threads get shut down, but this one? Still going? For what purpose?

WOW, I feel for you, it’s hard to be a parent and think that you’ve done something wrong. BUT, I’m an OTD, and I can tell you, with certainty, that when a child goes OTD, it’s NOT always the fault of the parents. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it’s not. Go see a professional, a therapist (NOT a Life Coach. Aries, I respect what you do, but a Life Coach is not a licensed therapist) and the Coffee Room is far from professional.

I can tell you from personal experience that in my case, it was the home, the school, the community… there were many many factors.

Can we close this thread now so that the name calling and blame and fault stops?

@Herr Himmell: I’ve already explained myself. If you are having difficuly with your comprehension, I suggest you get yourself tested. I will not respond to your poorly disguised attempts to pretend to act like an appropriate “frum” person again. Especially since I believe that you and Vochindik are one and the same. People with multiple personality disorders need to be heavily medicated, have you thought about seeing a psychiatrist?

@uneeq:

@Groisnachas: I have a considerable amount to say with regards to parenting. However, at this time, I am unable to do so, simply because I believe that it would give away entirely too much as to who I am, and where I was raised. I am unwilling to do that at this time. What I will say is this.

Jeffrey Dahmer, a noted psychopath, whose very behaviors were so immoral that he himself was killed in prison, had parents that loved and cared for him in spite of his “character flaws”. So did David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), amongst others.

One thing stands out, though publicly decrying their son’s behavior, Dahmer’s father and step mother also publicly stated that while they did not in any way shape or form condone their son’s behavior, he was, and always would be their son (not step son, not killer or pervert, but “son”, and for that reason, they would always love him and support him in any way they could without supporting his criminal actions.

With all that being said, how many children and adults that go frei have parents and families that can say the same things to and about them, simply because they have chosen to not keep shabbat or kosher?

That, in of itself, should be a lesson in parenting.

@groisnachas

Thank you for that.

Sometimes I wish I still had some faith in people left. Unfortunately, the rabbonim of which you speak must live in some other cities, because the ones in the cities in which I dealt with were worth nothing.

And, for the kindness with which you are treating me, may YOU have much nachas from those around you.

@ready now: What makes your advice “good” versus “bad”? Is your advice good because you’re the one giving it? I joined in this conversation for the same reason that the other poster did; in order to give input that was asked for, not for advice, and not for other reasons. I’ve given good and bad advice. I’ve been the receipient of good and bad advice, but I would never say that my advice is good simply because I am the one giving it. Narcissistic much?

If one chooses to name other reigions by name, they will. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. That’s a choice that you are more than welcome to make, just as we all have choices. There are choices in every day life that people make, and my firm and strong belief is that the heavy criticism that extra narrow minded judgemental and even hypocrtical individuals such as (insert name here) push people such as myself, further away.

I’ve made mention of Faranuk Margolis’ book before, it’s a supreme read, and quite on the mark, but I will go ahead and mention it again. I suggest for any of you that are really curious, as opposed to those of you that are merely here to “lovingly” inform those of us that have made our choices, that we are going to hell,to read this book. It will open your eyes.