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rryr, relax;) what is it going to be like? IYH a good experience that will bring you one step closer to marrying your bashert(whoever he may be)…just let things go naturally, be polite, and smile kindly and really listen to what he has to share with you, b/c pp can tell when others pay attention.
you can take from this thread a few conversational ideas: hobbies, seminary experience, family, family trips etc
just remember: no need to spell out life goals and ambitions at
this point, keep it light and friendly.
and another thing….since you mentioned your first of your friends to date: its soo super important, i cannot STRESS this enough, that you SHOULD NOT share details of date with your friends.
yes, i know they will be waiting to hear, and i know they’ll wana know all details so that “it will help their dating experience”
but im telling you something very real: bracha metzuya bashtika!!”
bracha is found in silence! you want things to go well? don’t spread the details around town…
beside the potential loshen hara that can come out by s/o misunderstanding what you say…I have heard many cases of girls refusing certain boys( and vice versa) cuz their friend made a silly comment about what he did/ say on a date!
if your friends ask you how it went: you can tell them very generally where you went and that you spoke about “family, life, hobbies. period” don’t share more! even if you dont’ tell them the guy’s name( pp find out very quickly these things)
I know it may be hard to conceal these things…but only pp you shud talk about date is your parents and mentor, thats it!
Hatzlacha! and may it go well!
oh, I found the exact name: ben tzitzit ha’ksat
one view also said that whenever he walked, carpets with fringes( tzizis) were laid before him and after that poor men came to collect them.
So this tana definitely had a lavish life style but he gave tzedaka and made sure that any enjoyment he had was leshem shamayim!
im gona give the most general explanation i can think of: relating to a Yeshiva….( now that can mean, someone whose closely associated with a yeshiva or yeshiva lifestyle that promotes torah and mitzvos over materialism)
while i cannot recall the exact name of this Tana( he had a unique name that had the word “tzizis” in it)….this Tana was known to be very very wealthy and says in gemara that when he walked his tzizis never touched the floor i believe, because he had a red carpet under him at all times…and yet he said that he never used anything in life other than for avodas Hashem….
This teaches us, you can have a beautiful house, a beautiful car, and beautiful event etc as long of course you don’t cause harm to others by it ( ie getting in debt for it) if you will use it for avodas Hashem…
I know many pp with beautiful homes who let meshulchim stay there…who hold parlor meetings at their homes etc
I know pp who have beautiful cars and we’ll use them to drive around rabbonim or meshulachim…
and a beautiful event can also do much for others: if its a fundraiser, pp like to give more if its in a fancier place…
A person may not give more than a 1/5 of his $ for maaser…
now the rest, Hashem has given him the right to enojoy the $, just as Hashem gives us things ( ie. food and clothes) to enjoy in this world.
Possibly Hashem wants to test that person, that despite a lavish life, if he can remember to give tzedaka.
There is no halacha whatsoever for a rich man to give all his $ away for tzedaka or to live as a poor man. I am NOT suggesting that this person flaunt or create jealousy with his $, but if Hashem bestowed on him wealth, he may enjoy it in proper contex and yes that could mean making a nicer wedding for his children!
In this world, there will always be discrimination! at one point it can be over race, ethnicity, religion, political stance etc
Is there a BT discrimination?
I am not a BT myself but I can tell ya that I live in an out of town community where BT are not only respected but are considered as truly part of the community. The community itself has chassidim, litvtish pp, sefardim etc and everyone shares mutual respect and even fondness to all groups. So, no, in my community i don’t see any discrimination: BT kids are accepted into schools based on their own merits, not based if their parents are BT or FFB.
regarding shidduchim, i find that generally BT like to make shidduchim with fellow BT just because they have that mutual understanding of eachother. Hoever i have seen BT families whose children became very committed to yidishkiet and some became very yeshivish and married into yeshivish families.
Can I say this applies to every community? NO. I cant speak for the rest of them.
But if your asking these questions in order to feel out how your family will be incorporated into the FFB community, i would suggest you find a warm and accepting community,that is open
and not closed minded!
Don’t worry about shidduchim, its all in Hashems’ hands!
yes, there is a yehi ratzon after shiur hashirim in most sidurim!…I was told you do need to say it after because part of the segula is the prayer part. the yehi ratzon ends “veyemale mishalos lebenu…”( May Hashem fulfill wishes of our hearts…) this is good time to say “for zivug hagun for____ Ben/Bas ____. you shud ask a rov thou what to do on shabbos when one does not say the yehi ratzon as we dont’ ask personal bakashos on shabbos. some say you shud say yehi ratzon before shabbos and have in mind the shir hashirm u’ll say on shabbos….best to ask your rov.
lakevooder…i was laughing out loud when i read your story!! now everytime i’ll see a bee, i’ll be remind of that girl lol
Realtalk…I can’t THANK YOU enough for telling us about Rabbi Keleman’s story! after reading your post i quickly tuned in torahanytime to listen…and though the speech was 1 hr and 17 min…I could not stop listening!!! I have never laughed so hard and yet cried inside at the same time!!! I have sat at the edge of my seat the entire time!! His story is unbelievable and I know i will now tell everyone i know to listen to it. so thank you again for telling everyone about it!
I have heard many shiurim in past years- in high school, in sem, in college etc…But I have never enjoyed a shiur like i do when i listen to Rabbi Walerstein!! His shiurim are so insightful and fulllll of humor!! I enjoy them tremendously and i would recommend them to every person!! they are soo relevant to everyone: from a FFB bais yaakov girl or boy to someone finding their way back to yiddishkiet!!
I was actually wondering the same…what is the norm today? when do they check up on the test results to see if there’s no genetic problems with the match? right before they are engaged or before they start dating? from personal experience it was done before getting engaged…but I wonder what other people do?
I have been searching for one for a long time and finally a friend gave me one. she has not tried it nor did i have a chance to…so try at your own discretion;)
Chocolate Filling
1 cup semisweet chocolate chips
1/2 cup sugar
1 tablespoon margarine
1 tablespoon non-dairy creamer or other milk substitute such as soy milk
1 tea spoon vanilla extract
1 egg
Instructions:
Melt chocolate with margarine and milk substitute in sauce pan over low-medium heat.
Add sugar and vanilla. Stir until just melted.
Stir in beaten egg. Use immediately.
Jphone…if you know of other shevuim…and i mean exact names and cases, then start publicizing them! and we can elicit similar petitions! we just do not know about these cases cuz Alef and similar institutions are not not publicizing them! the Lubavitch shalayich was the one who set up the website savemartingrossman.com and thats how we knew about it! Alef did not make us aware of the case nor did other institutions…so again, if they would then we have similar obligations to petition on their behalf as well!
One thing i will agree with Jphone…truth be told we should have an outcry for every single Jewish inmate!! I think the reason this one case created such a response is because I don’t think many of us hear of Jewish inmates being put to death every other day…this case seemed rare and demanded a response! if there are more Jewish prisoner on death row, that we are not aware of, then Alef has a responsibility to publicize it and let us know about them so we can try helping them too!
only reason you and I and many others knew about Martin Grossman’s case is because some pp took the responsibility and initative to let us know about it!! otherwise we would not known about it!!!
so its not a matter of where are petitions for other inmates…but lack of public infomation about these cases!
Jphone…I went on that link and scanned briefly through some of the inmates on death row…some of the cases are too atrocious to even read! But even after reading some i had no impluse to say “lets kill him/her” for what they did! Jail in Life is sufficient as they cannot harm another human being there! From a secular point of view you may say that we only help “our kind”…bottom line as yidden we have the torah that demands us to be podeh shevuim…not for goyim…so if you think thats unfair…speak to G-d!! He is waaay more wiser and brilliant than any creature in this world and I trust His commandments and decisions!
So will I petition for a goy? If Hashem would demand pidyon shevuim for goyim I would!! eventhough goy is far removed from where we come from/our ideals and values!
I can’t go out of my way to petition for a goy on death row out of my own initiative because the potential for a yid to do teshuva and be rehabilitated far excells that of a goy…and im not convinced that every goy on death row did/doing repetance and is being rehabilitated! ( as one case i read the murderer said he wanted to see what it would feel like kiling a person)…Martin Grossman did teshuva, at time of his death he was not the person he was 25 years ago! and yes…that makes a difference to who we petition!
Had he not shown remorse and teshuva…possibly the outcry would have been on a lesser volume but still there because as yidden we are obligated to be podeh shevuim even if we feel he doesn’t deserve it!
right winger…Gemara tells us, a Sanhedrin that upheld an execution in seven years or even in seventy years was scorned as a bloody court!! meaning that as much as they instituted courts to kill rotzchim and ganavim…it was more of a preventative measure to scare further murders and thefts! Sanhedrin very very rarely killed s/o as the gemara states and that is not becauset there were no murders or thefts! in fact there were many Arey Mikat instituted in Eretz Yisroel because certain shevatim ( I believe Reuven) had a common occurances of accidentals and perhaps at times intentional murders…However, Bais Din would do what ever they could to find a way/reasoning why not to take the criminal life’s away! You can in NO way compare sanhedrin to a secular court system!
ty…because pp get insulted! and if your trying to create achdus…not so smart to insult pp!
oomis unfortunately he was executed! Baruch Dayan Hamemes! and your right its def a no-win situation!
Ir…I also personally know a similar story, where the parents were not in touch with what their daughter really wanted and needed….and this girl consulted daas torah after she met a boy whom she felt was right for her but her parents object…well guess what daas torah( and im talking a few great rabbanim) decided in that situation that parents have no place to object to it and she can marry him! my point: everyone can bring a story with different outcome…however every person should consult daas torah,because whats right for one person can be totally different to someone else!!
the fact that in your story the boy and girl married someone else is irrelevant…the point is that they consulted a rov and for that situation he felt parents should be involved.
I can tell you from the personal story i quoted, the couple is happily married and the parents have learned to embrace situation with open arms and they did! had she been told my “well meaning” people that she must listen to her parents and followed that…well I don’t know what would have happened, but my guess would be she would not have married the boy she felt was perfect for her!
its very tricky when it comes to parents, because they are blinded by their love for their child and at times blinded by peer pressure as well or at times by their unrealistic hopes for their child to marry the “best” of the “best”. so sometimes they need the unbiased toradik third party to help them see things clearly.
when i read the question I was lol…because I thought everyone knew what it was!! this type is called tuna baigel…because the original pp that got labeled with this term are those chassidishe spitz guys, who dress in polo shirts, kakki/denim pants, trimmed beared during the week( in short not resembling chassidishe guys) and show up at a cafe and with full heavy boro park accent say “Ich Vill a Tuna Bigel”…
I know now pp label diff type of pp with this term: working chassidishe guys or chassidishe guys who are more outside the “box”….I have not heard this term being used to describe litvish boys as one commenter suggesed.
I know pp hate labels but these kind of boys are very comfortable with the way they dress, their life style, and chassidishe background…so its not a deragetory label because they look for tuna bigel girls, they don’t want fully chassidish.
This question is for Owner of Shidduch World,
while this question has nothing to do with the original comment posted, Im just inquiring about shidduch world:
Im tryingto find a shidduch for a working chassidishe guy, but i noticed that there are no resumes on ur site of chassidish older girls…is that because you don’t cater to that crowd, or you are not familiar with that crowd?
while i fully agree that schools need to enforce their rules…however they need to do that with respect in a way that doesn’t infringe on their boy’s privacy and not in a way that makes them feel like they are being treated like little children…teenages resent that greatly! when a rule is in place, the school needs to remind its students occasionally about it, and if they see someone outwardly using a cell phone then they have a right to confinscate it…but to make boys empty their pockets like prisoners in cells do…or like someone being arrested is unncessary! if they have a valid reason to suspect that a certain boy has a cell or an unpermitted item, then they can take the boy aside and ask him to hand it over…or empty his pockets. but to stam stop bochurim in yeshiva and ask them to empty out their pockets…its not dignified and who knows what a boy might decide one day to keep in his pocket, maybe a certain candy wrapper or important personal notes that now have to be on public display just to prove he doesn’t have a cell phone on him.
Lehavdil havdalus, my grandma remembers how in holocaust they made e/o empty their pockets to make sure they wern’t hiding bread or valuables etc…now while in no way am i comparying the schools to them C”V…but its a degrading feeling when ur put on a spot and asked to empty out your pockets, especially if ur a good person who did nothing…
Its just not the way it shud be done….
if they do find a boy not following rules then they can act accordingly, but to stop random innoncent bachurim…may create an authoritive system that becomes resentful to many young boys!
…probably off somewhere wondering where the girls are??
I think i have another possible solution to help match up boys with girls…I don’t know about you, but when I was in the parsha, as an out of town girl, I was always redt to a NY boy! from boro park, flatbush, far rockway ect…and mabye sometimes even Lakewood! i don’t think I was ever redt or ever heard a suggestion of a boy who did not live in tri-state area! I remember wondering where all the out of town boys were…the ones from Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, Miami ect…I remember even asking my friends once if any boys from those areas were ever redt to them and they agreed that every boy that was redt to them was from NY and NJ! I even asked some seminary friends who lived in Chicago and similar areas the same question, only to get the same answer! very few shidduchim from my home town were out of town-out of town shidduch…most were with NY boys.
So my question: Where are the boys from areas other than NY and NJ?? I think that many out of town shadchanim need to get together and creatively match up names…coming from an out of town area I know that some pp are reluctant to make shidduchim with pp in their town, because its “too close for comfort”. However they wouldnt’ mind making a shidduch with another out of town boy/girl.
I dont think I know one shadchan in my home town whose in touch with shadchanim in other out of town areas…everyone is sort of hooked onto NY shadchanim, sort of hogging the same pool of names.
Mayb this way, out of town girls wouldn’t constantly get the “I only want someone from NY area for my son” as an answer, maybe this way more girls will get a chance to go out with a boy with same out of town personality.
Just a suggestion…
do I have to?? I mean I can “copy and paste” the “I WILL carefully proofread my posts.” 1000 times but then I might seriously bore YW readers!
lol, oomis, I was thinking the same thing about my posts! I also get very involved in my posts and so eager to click “send” that I by mistake overlook many typos and spelling mistakes! I was nervious one of those grammar “fanatics” in CR are going to proofread my whole post and make me rewrite it…
mybat…”parents should allow it as long as it will lead to marriage”…the second i read that line i right away thought of What will Rabbi Walerstein say about this??!!for those who don’t know, Rabbi Walerstein has been involved in Kiruv rechokim and kerovim for over 10 years, he has more experience than, I dare say, many of us on CR!
In a recent Shiur discussing boys and girls hanging out without supervision, he described how many girls and boys that he personally knows who came from good homes and are now not shomer negia, who are not following hilchos yichud, all because they feel like they “loooove” the other person and they will “for sure” marry that girl/boy one day!
though I cannot remember the exact numbers…but he said that out of 30 weddings where he was mesader kidushin, i think it was 27 of them where the couple were not shomer negia, and out of 27, only ONE COUPLE were not shomer with eachother. meaning, that the other couples had many girlfriends and boyfriends whom they have not been shomer with AND they did not marry those pp…they married other pp….so that rationalization that “it will lead to marriage” doesn’t stand.
Now I know I specifically discuss shomer negia and not the general subject of “fun get togethers” because just like Rabbi Walerstein, I can see as well that when boys and girls hang, they let their guards down and it can invitably reach not being shomer negia or being careful with hilchos yichud! This is coming from a Rabbi whose been there for these children, and can tell you how boys would go up to girls and ask rides to go “daven mincha”…just to manipulate the girls to let them into the car…or boy telling girl that tis okay not to be shomer negia cuz he heard a “rov” say that if you wear gloves its okay…bottom line, their yetzer hara is strong and they’ll do anything to satisfy taavos…lets not encourage that!
and if we’r talking about girls/boys hanging together for many years in hopes that it will lead to marriage, well i can think of at least 3 pp just off hand who dated their boyfriend for 3 YEARS…and relationship broke off! i asked one of them what lesson she took from whole experience and she said ” there’s no reason why we were hanging out in high school…waste of time, we were young, it was fun, though was clean, but when we got older and life started hitting us and we realized what getting married means, then we started having problems and realizing we’r not even suitable as a husband and wife”…..so ya, what was the point of being friends for 3years?!
and looking back to highschool( really only a few years ago) I can say that of the girls who had boyfriends….NONE of them dated them seriously at marriagable age, none of them got married to them….all it did was give many girls and boys heartache!!
now oomis1105, your gona blame the chinuch system, shidduch system, parents, mothers, bubbes, zeidies, neighbors, yentas….and you may be right…but u paint a very unrealistic world where everything needs to be readjusted and changed inorder to make these “get togethers” a kosher possiblity!!
u write “That may be true in an environment such as today when they feel like kids let loose in a candy store when they are around other genders”. well thats what im addressing, from a realistic point of view that in today’s world ( not last generation, not generation of the bais hamikdash….but today) this is the case and to say that a very realistic possible solution is to encourage “fun get togethers” is turning blindly to what you urself see as happening.
Now, if Chazal themselves quote how the yetzer Hara is soo strong, and I had rabbanim as seminary teachers telling us “girls u dont’ understand, a boys’ Yetzer Hara is incredible when they see a girl”….then it isn’t my humble opinion about boys at young age not having the self discipline…they are not physically, mentally, emotionally ready at a high school age!! u can teach them, coach them and refine them, but maturity comes with age and life experience, not necessarily by learning social protocols.
Also, I feel like I have to say this as well…oomis you also paint a world where girls and boys are soooo oblivious about eachother…but many boys and girls have siblings in opposite gender, they have boy cousins and relatives whom they bump into family chanuka parties and family simchas…pp are not as naive as you make them!
I myself attended chanuka parties where I had chassidishe boy cousins show up and espeically because it was a “supervised” party where e/body’s parents and grandparents were present that e/o felt comforable interacting with eachother. and yes, my boy cousins would make conversation with me as well…very normal, pleasant, non intrusive conversations! so if anything i would encourage supervision during such get together!
As someone who has brothers and boy cousins, I never felt like I didnt “get” how boys think or not think…and if there was s/t i was unclear about, my date would explain to me. I never pictured my dates showing up in white horses and who knows what, or expect them to read off shas for me before we begin talking…
I never had an issue speaking to a boy on a date because we had common things to discuss like “eretz yisroel, yeshiva, seminary, goals in life, hobbies ect” unlike in high school, ALL that girls discussed with boys was MOVIES and Goyshe music, I have never heard a girl say she discussed Shwekey with a boy!!
and I do not personally feel like I needed any boy interaction in my high school years, if anything as I have said before, I have seen only destructive things come out of that!
I disagree oomis. allowing boys and girls to interact in a “fun get-togethers” at an young age is detrimental! lets not fool ourselves and believe that kids are capable of exercising self control without supervision. you paint a picture where interaction between boys and girls from young age will lead to better dating experience and marriage success…I beg to differ! looking back at my High School experience, the girls who had “boyfriends” or talked to guys on a steady basis developed either low self esteem because they depended on the boy’s value judgement of whether they were “cool enough” or “pretty” or “awesome” ect. and those who didn’t have low self esteem and were confident enough about themselves developed this gaming attitude where you make the boy like you by playing games, like being unreachable and talking to the other boy to make first boy more interested…ect. now some of you might be thinking, oh this is probably one of those modern high schools or s/thing…NO! this happened and happens in our local bais yaakovs! MY POINT: girls and boys at a young age DO NOT know what is appropriate or not because they have not developed sensitivities in tznius yet. you can’t expect a 15 year old to be as sensitive to tznius as one whose 20 who just returned from sem and learned the value of real dating and building a Jewish home, not just having “fun” with a boy!
same goes for a boy, you can’t expect them (with a boy’s mind) to keep things “clean” at this age, their yetzer hara is too strong!! they have not learnt yet enough to have self control and know the real value of building a Jewish home!
Do you know how many Yichud issues come up??!! children are children…u can’t expect them to act like adults and have an adult interaction!
Im speaking from expereince because I had friends and classmates who succumbed to this…what started as an innocent interaction with a boy lead a frum girl do serious averos!! what started off as FB friend lead to emotional damage and low self esteem in others….
So I bet your going to say that it doesn’t have to be this way, and that there can be interactions that wont’ lead to this…well then you do need it to be “overseen by a Rov”, because without authority or supervision, these pp get lose and it pulls away the best and the finest from yeshivos and bais yaakovs…
A boy should not have girls in his head when he’s learning, a boy should not have girls numbers on his cell phone or have FB girl friends…it leads to taivos, leads to averos…and these “fun get togethers” will just encourage that.
I can’t say I have a real solution to the shidduch crisis but if everyone in coffee room claims that today boys and girls are marrying too young, or too young to date…well are they suddenly adult enought to know how to control themselves when they are merely in high school?! I don’t think so.
Dr. Pepper stories on “funny shidduch stories” are just hysterical!!make me laugh out loud every single time!! keep them coming!!
LOL! while many of these questions wouldn’t be asked straight out, I dare to believe that many have those questions in their minds while researching a prospective shidduch!! but some of these questions are way too funny to even attempt to answer!
You must buy Rabbi Dr. Twersky’s new book called “In-Laws, its all relative” which discusses all kinds of issues pp have to deal with…and gives solutions to them! buy the book and it might give u a professional practical advice!!
going to a therapist is crucial for people who need it, and they should not avoid it because of what others think.
However, it is hard to remove the stigma….part in it lies in fact that mental problems deal with something that is unique to human beings and not animals…and thats the saichel, human mind.
so when someone is handicaped physically in his limbs, or other organs, people at least are comforted that as you say in yiddish “his head works”…
when a person suffers from a mental dissability…people feel a disconnect from that person, they feel that person does not understand what is being said or told or is happening ( which in many many cases is false)
I know about this because i had a neighbor who suffered from a mental illness and when people found out they started talking to her very slowly or not at all…
they just felt she must not “chap” if she has this problem.
At times, this may be true, some conditions like schiznophrenia may be like this but most conditions have more to do with moods, depression, mental obsessions and paranoia…among others where the person fully grasps people’s reactions and attitudes
and it destroys their self esteem if others stop treating them as human beings.
so its a hard stigma to break…but should be broken nonetheless…
havesomeseichel: hamodia magazine was made specifically for pp who did not want ads in between the articles….they do have one right in the middle of the magazine that can be pulled out…but the rest is ad free and it has very nice stories, dvar torahs, insights, chinuch articles, things u wouldn’t necessarily find in YWN!
Having a brother who just went throught that whole process…i’ll throw in some pointers:
There is a a bechina…if the boy is in Eretz Isroel, they set up appointment with the boy to fill out paperwork…then they get a date when their bechina will take place.
there are few bochanim…some harder than others, but you don’t get to pick which one you want.
You need to review info well because as of what im hearing lately, they became more stringent and picky about level of excellence…making sure they only accept boys who are serious and do well on it.
DON’T ask me WHY, but Brisker guys have it easier to get in, even if a Mir guy scored much higher! just way it is!
Many Mir guys say that they had run arounds with the paperwork, acceptance, and other details. they basically had to wait longer to get their answer!
tuition sitution is actually bit sticky, they like to pick first boys who claim will pay full tution…dunno if they actually do.
so I know of many boys who will write that they will pay full tution Bli neder, I”H ect…because they hope they can eventhough they know it won’t really happen cuz they don’t wana be discriminated just based on that…
im not sure if this applies to e/o…I do know that they have some kind of gov programs to help with the tuition…
deserve…no! however parents should give their children as a gift( and make it clear to them that they are receiving it as a gift) to pay for extra necessities and maybe even little luxaries.
Teens who are in school/yeshiva and do not have extra cash on them because they currently don’t work A. feel very nebachdik when they see their peers go on outings or getting little extra things( like a new backpack, new purse…new pair of shoes)and they cannot because it is not under the definition of “necessity” im not even talking about PSP and top notch ipods and gameboys ( althouh its becoming a trend as well by children to have that as well at a young age) B. or they start borrowing money from their friends and I have seen this by teens…it creates a destructive cycle where they borrow from one person to pay the next…like a ponze scheme, because they feel like they want to get s/thing that e/o has and they cannot…
NOW im am not going into whole chinuch thing whre you have to educate teens to be happy with what they have! its true…we have to…but reality is that they still feel
very bad about themselves if they don’t have certain things because they are at the age where peer acceptance is super important…and lets not pretend that adults do not
act this way as well!! but its hard to change human nature and at times pp feel need
to have nice things and look presentable ( im not talking about showing off….)
so they should be given some pocket money, small amounts on a steady basis, so they don’t feel the need to borrow but the sum isnt’ so big so that they learn how to budget the money correctly!