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No it isn’t, it’s a rarity. They are trying to make it mainstream, but not mandatory.
What’s a rarity? You think it’s rare that boys who decide they are ready to get married start dating?
You think no boys are ready at 21?
Certainly some are. But the kol korei was not phrased “We encourage boys to start dating whenever they decide they are ready in consultation with their rebbeim (and hopefully therapists), and particularly if they are ready at 21 it would be great.”
Mostly because that’s already the reality.
And by stipulating that it’s only for boys who are ready, with the consent of their rebbeim.
As I said. “Addressed” by disagreeing.
Your analogy is flawed, because the factors taking singles out of the field are if anything going to take more boys out than girls. See popa’s point about “defective” boys.
Lav davka. There are many psulim in girls that don’t affect boys much. For example, a boy can be OTD for a few years in high school and still be a “catch. “
I have opined before, that of course we’ll join the army. When it’s time to fight the chilonim.
They’re not ALL defective. I used to be one of them, so I guess some are. But I know some who aren’t.
But, we clearly need to acknowledge that some boys and some girls are defective and there are reasons they won’t get married for a while until they work some stuff out, or maybe until they find someone who can work for them, or maybe never.
I personally think there are more boys than girls who are like that. I call it the creepy guy theory of the shidduch crisis.
I agree. I am not NASI’s spokesperson, and I think they have made some marketing errors. I do think they have reasonably addressed the maturity issue, but the learning issue, although not without answers, is more complex.
They have “addressed” the maturity issue, but by disagreeing.
They have not even “addressed” the learning issue.
Popa, you should stick to arguing that boys getting married earlier will decrease learning. It’s the only reasonable point you have. The rest just makes you look like you have an agenda.
The being mature point is also highly reasonable.
And I think that the failure of the NASI side to recognize these points makes them look like they have an agenda. What’s my agenda? What’s theirs?
2. Is there agreement on the following fact:
The number of boys in Orthodox Jewish Schools in North America in 1st grade is far greater than the # of boys in 4th grade. In a similar vein, the number of boys in in North America in Orthodox Jewish HS in 9th grade is far greater than the # of boys in 12th grade.
3. Is there agreement on the following fact:
The number of girls in Orthodox Jewish schools in North America in 1st grade is far greater than the # of girls in 4th grade. In a similar vein, the number of girls in North America in Orthodox Jewish HS in 9th grade is far greater than the # of girls in 12th grade.
No, there is not.
There probably are, but I have no way of knowing. Similarly, I have no way of knowing that there are more boys in 9th grade than girls in 12th grade. Maybe the girls are going off the derech before 9th grade. Maybe the frum community has more girls than boys. Maybe the frum community doesn’t have straight line growth but instead has waves. Maybe there are a bunch of boy baalei teshuva in 12th grade. Maybe anything. Maybe we should find out before we propose radical sociological changes.
yeah, whatever, one man’s bank robber is another man.
Thanks DY.
And like the vaccine thread, any questions are met with ridicule.
This thread shares a lot in common with the vaccine thread.
The NASI people and what’s that rich dude’s name from LA stand on their high horses and impose on us their solutions. When we ask for evidence they tell us to shut up and get in line quick because the problem is getting worse while we talk.
Well, I’m through shutting up. If you can’t put up some decent evidence after 10 years of hocking this chainek, and backing from rich dude, that is per se evidence that you are wrong. NASI and rich dude can shut up now.
When I get vaccine, I ask for the one without thimersoral. Costs the same amount to me (nothing).
kapusta, what kind of proof do you want? Will you accept anything less than a scientific study of the marriage demographics of the yeshivish/Orthodox community by Pew Research?
Well, Pew did a terrible job on their last poll of the frum community. But otherwise, yes, that’s what I’d need.
Only during sefira
Now, of course you’ll say ‘but people who have travelled in these faster means of transportation have also contracted (insert name of disease here)’
It’s because of the crunchy people who travel on bicycles and ruin our herd immunity.
My point was that it isn’t fair to say that the decline of communicable diseases that have vaccines is proven due to vaccines, since there was a concurrent and corresponding decline in communicable diseases that don’t have vaccines.
Please explain how childhood diseases which once killed over 1/2 of children have become basically a non-event today
You mean like the black plague, which has no vaccine?
Or do you mean like Cholera, which also has no vaccine?
Or like dysentery?
Better sanitation.
lol good luck with that
welcome to a world in which most physicians couldn’t make a living if they spent the amount of time with each patient that’s really needed.
How to do we get to this alternative reality universe where doctors make 10 times the average salary of their clients, by not spending enough time on their work to do a decent job, and defend that if they spent another 10% as much time, and only made 9x the average salary, they wouldn’t be making a living.
This thread is a perfect example of the what I’m talking about.
You vaccinators won’t give an inch. If we were criticizing doctors for any other reason, you’d have agreed with 3/4 of what I’m saying by now. But because the topic is vaccines, the doctors are all visibly upset malachim.
Malachim they are. The malach hameves.
It means that the doctors in question conveyed somberly the seriousness and magnitude of the issue at hand.
When a doctor has a relationship with her patient and the patient’s parents, she won’t need to hide the truth by sugarcoating everything‘
What happened to “visibly upset”?
Glad that some physicians do take those issues seriously, since they hit at the top of the list of causes of childhood death and disease in the U.S., but it’s too bad that the doctors in your example responded to their patients so poorly. I’m sure that ten year old feels really good about himself and his doctor now.
Avram on a roll in this thread.
Imagine your plumber comes to the house and notices that your pipes are rusty and leaking. So he gives you a stern talking to.
lol
Would you really expect a pediatrician to engage in open discussion about the same topic with every meshugener anti-vax parent who comes in? She’s come to her conclusion a long time ago, and has every right to say that if you don’t agree with her approach, go find another pediatrician.
Everyone has a right to do whatever they want. But if you want to know why there’s an anti-vaxxer movement to begin with, I think this is the reason.
you missed a few steps first the plumber says well even if there is condensation this pipe is still leaking and needs repair and besides it is unlikely to be condensation since this room is very dry and the humidity is too low for any condensation to occur. and even if moist it is too cool for any copndesation to occur etc etc
And the response is “I don’t know, I read online that sometimes water can drip from condensation, how do you know it isn’t that.”
And the plumber replies well as Ive explained… (how many threads are on this forum on this very subject?)
What doctor do you know who would engage on the topic? When I signed my kid up for pediatrician, the receptionist made me agree to not try to delay vaccinations before they’d accept me as a patient. If you try to ask questions, it apparently makes Dr Shanik “visibly upset” (never met him, but see above).
It doesn’t work anyway. The other person gets it.
The reason for the difference Avram points out is because in all those issues he mentioned the patient is essentially saying: you’re right of course, but I’m lazy or whatever. By vaccines they are saying: I disagree with you. Even: you’re wrong and I’m right. Nothing gets a typical doctors blood to boil more. It’s like heating water on Mt. Everest.
Exactly. And they take it personally, because instead of being professionals about it, they’re usually arrogant jerks.
Doctors in the U.S. are uniquely terrible at doing their job. If I was as bad at my job as doctors are at theirs, I’d have been fired the first day.
Imagine a plumber who comes to your house, and says you have a leak in your pipe and need to fix it. And you say, I don’t know, I read online that sometimes water can drip from condensation, how do you know it isn’t that. So the plumber says if you don’t let him fix it, he’s never coming to your house again. Good plumber?
but I wonder why the vaccine issue causes such hyperventilation among the medical community that many practitioners cannot dispassionately and compassionately explain the benefits of vaccines and the fallacies of the anti-vaccination advocates. Nor can many allow for alternate scheduling (which is what many parents want, yet they get painted as “anti-vaxxers”).
Do doctors get “visibly upset” when they see an obese child in their exam room eating a candy bar? Do they make sure the parents have a properly installed car seat, signal their turns, and don’t run red lights? That they don’t smoke? Do they ever mention keeping the handles of cooking pots turned away from the edge of the stove so little hands cannot grab them? Those are all much bigger health issues for kids right now than the vaccine brouhaha.
This.
You can also save yourself the tircha of voting because the chances of a candidate winning by one vote are infinitesimal.
I’m not registered to vote. But if I was, I’d vote for TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP!!!
You sound like a health – nut! The whole idea of us medical professionals, is that we treat patients individually. If it’s not good for that individual, we won’t do it or we’ll do something else.
Right, that is what your job is supposed to be, and what nobody believes you do anymore.
If too many people think about THEIR kids and not think about vaccination of kids as a whole, what happens is what happened in Williamsburg, only with worse diseases than chickenpox.
is that true? You think that that one a person by person basis it doesn’t make sense to vaccinate for other horrible diseases?
You’re not just a member of the club; you’re on the board.
So his Lomdus is – there is a small chance that the kid will get seizures, so it’s better not to vaccinate, even though it will most probably prevent the disease?!?
The lomdus is, that I am not confident someone is thinking about that, and specifically thinking about it in relation to MY kid rather than kids as a whole.
DY: Once you’re picking and choosing, you’re one of us.
Sorry, and welcome to the club. Annual dues are payable every Rosh Hashana.
My doctor didn’t give my kid that one.
So you’re one of us.
Let’s say it’s correct, though. Still, what does “plenty” mean? And what harm do these seizures cause? And, most importantly, what benefit is there to the vaccine, and is it worth the risk?
exactly.
The CDC admits that SOMETIMES there are SOME people who could have a negative reaction to an immunization.
That’s right. But your doctor never told you that before sticking your newborn baby who is barely 2 minutes born with a vaccine against STD’s, did they?
Can you show us any evidence that there is an actual factual risk of children being negatively impacted by vaccines?
See, it’s statements like this that make me think nobody is even considering the risks.
Yes, plenty of kids have seizures after vaccines.
Those fabrics can be made into paper — in fact US currency is made from linen. So the same issues apply there.
Hey, this is not medicine. Back off.
I don’t have semicha and don’t want it. But *I* have been through Tanakh and the entire Bavli so I am not a complete ignoramus. The anti-vaxxers ARE ignoramuses; they make basic errors in logic that would earn them a failing grade in any epidemiology class.
So basically I can’t have an opinion in your area unless I have a Phd, but you can have an opinion in mine because you went to a daf yomi shiur for a few years?
Is that your position that you think I should agree to?