popa_bar_abba

less chumros:

There is no reason to discuss what would have been if Yehudah had been anything close to what you refer to as “human”, because it simply is not the case. This is stated outright in gemaros and midrashim.

yosr:

It is astounding to me that you are debating him on whether the founding of Israel was in violation of the three oaths.

This issue is irrelevant to the contemptible practices of the NK.

Ben torah:

There are three factors which must be discussed for every solution.

A. Will it actually make an appreciable difference.

B. Is it implementable; will people do it?

C. Will it create other problems; will it be worth it?

So, in regards to your first idea, I’ll say it satisfies the first question but fails the second and third, with no further explanation needed.

Your second idea, everyone getting married at 18, bears discussion. I will divide my response into three categories corresponding to the three issues.

A. If effectively implemented, it would eliminate the age gap.

B. Implementing this could be very difficult, especially in light of the potential dangers.

Additionally, there really is nobody who would be able to convince the masses to adopt this custom. We must remember that the cohort we are dealing with does not have rigid definitions, but is a fluid group.

Also, creating this custom would likely alter the composition of the group, as many who consider themselves part of “Yeshiva Orthodoxy”, would not be ready to adopt this lifestyle.

So, the feasibility of this idea is very questionable.

C. This is the most important, as it is the basis for why nobody would want to do this. This solution would create several problems.

Firstly, most 18 year olds in our community are not mature enough for marriage, meaning the relationship. Pointing to the success among chassidim is disingenuous, as their lifestyle is quite different. We could change our lifestyle, but that brings us sharply back to “issue B” (namely, we’re not going to).

Secondly, currently, men in the litvish community learn many more years on average than chassidim. The standard chssidish man leaves learning about 2 years after marriage, at around the age of 21. (I may be slightly off, I’m sure I’ll be corrected, but I’m basically on target.)

It is very likely that our adopting this custom would lead to a similar situation, as parents have only limited resources towards supporting children in learning, and at 18, women will necessarily not have the same advanced degrees. (speech, special ed, graphic design, nursing, shaitel maching)

Also, it is verifiable that the amount of years one learns is by and large, dependent on when one gets married, ie. 3 years after marriage + 5 before = 8; 3 after + 2 before = 5.

Thirdly, we will be alienating a large segment of our greater community. The same boy who now learns in our yeshivos for several years yet comes from a more “baal habatish” background, and eventually assimilates into more “yeshivish” culture, is not ready to commit to this at 18. (BTW, that means less boys)

The same is true for girls. Girls from less yeshivish backgrounds whose communities will not have joined the new group, will not wish to marry 18 year olds from the new group.

What will result is a new, thick line, in “Yeshiva orthodoxy”, dividing it into two defined communities, instead of the continuum which now exists. This would be a bad thing.

I will probably think of more problems, but I think these suffice, and this may be the longest post I have ever written. Nobody is going to read it.

I want to read this but every post is half a page long. It’s especially hard to read like this on a blackberry.

I know. We can only have test tube babies and implant more boys than girls.

says who:

If that was the case, shouldn’t there be not enough girls? I suspect it is the opposite.

as a rule, those who marry younger tend to have more succesful long lasting marriages

Well, they have longer to be married.

AZ: So you insist that there are solutions and suggest that maybe we will be brilliant enough to think of them.

Do you know a solution? Is this another “game”? Is this thread to see how smart we are? If you have an idea, this would be an appropriate time.

BP totty: Thinking of you, I rewrote much of this post.

Ok. Here’s popa’s take. While the “age gap” issue should not be minimized, there are many other issues we can also focus on.

As one wise man once told me: “For purposes of this discussion we will limit ourselves to problems which have solutions.”

There is no solution which will do very much to dent the “age gap” issue. Nobody is going to convince 20 year old girls to not go out, and it really is a bad idea for boys to go out before they are men (or guys). While making it accepted to marry an older girl (woman) is helpful, it will not nearly solve the problem. Besides, I know many older guys; there clearly are other factors involved.

So let’s work on the issues we can solve.

You don’t have to prove Fermat’s last theorem to see this.

Why don’t people ask questions about personality?

If people don’t, it’s because it is really hard to know what personalities will work with someone. Even worse, most of the words people use in describing personality have no meaning. Anyone who has dated more than a few times knows it’s just throwing darts.

Make sure you aren’t too heavy for some of the chairs.

As far as what to say to an older sibling, you really need to just use your brain.

Very much depends on what your relationship is with the person is.

If you generally are “daas impaired” (like some people on the potching thread), you should probably say nothing. To anyone. Ever.

best place to price and buy/sell miles is dansdeals in the forums. you can find people you will trust, just ask for references and pretend it’s a shidduch. find their friends by looking at their onlysimchas page.

So I had this post on a different thread (which I hijacked) several months ago regarding this topic. I decided to let this thread run for a while before I linked it. I’m glad I waited, because I’m afraid it may have polarized the debate.

It’s the fifth comment:

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/40-days-shir-hashirim

Even if hitting were to be proper parenting, common sense and halacha , it would only be in situations where it is warranted. In any other case, someone would be a regular chovel . If someone ever hit a kid in a situation where there is no chiyuv chinuch , they are doing an issur d’oraisa .

So, if someone hit a kid because he is doing something obnoxious which he will not do as an adult, he did an issur d’oraisa . Or if there was a better way to teach him but someone hit him, he did an issur d’oraisa . Are we really such experts on chinuch that we are ready to decide on a safek issur d’oraisa ?

Or, if times really have changed and hitting is no longer warranted almost ever, he is doing many isurei d’oraisa !

How will we know what to do? There is negligent parenting in front of us and issurei d’oraisa behind us! That is why we have experts and poskim. How about posting some present day American sources. (verifiable ones please)

P.S. Hey everyone, look how good I got at italics! I’m so excited. It’s transforming my coffee room experience.

EDITED

BP totty:

The suggestion to pick up the kid and carry him out of the store was in response to your statement- “A kid wreaking havoc in a store or terrorizing a classmate is a code red 5 alarm blaze and calls for quick, decisive action.”

I presumed you were talking about one’s own kid and was suggesting that the crisis could be solved by carrying said kid out of the store.

And you are correct, if someone hit my kid OR told him you would tie him up in the forest for the bears, I would call the police and my lawyer.

I am sorry to read this. I wish people would have more discretion when dealing with other people’s lives. There is not really anything you can do at this point. I do not think denying it is a good idea, especially if it is something you will end up revealing to someone you date. I hope everything works out well for you.

why would they think they were ugly and not some other problem and find out what it is and then work on him/herself

There could be a good answer to this question.

My father O”H used to tell me that the biggest danger in Yiddishkeit is when people make the tafeil the ikkar and the ikkar is made tafeil.

This deserves to be quoted.

I always like a good juicy deleted post. put them up

I think meeting on ones own dismisses the questions of “stack or scrape,” “plastic tablecloth or not,” and the like

I personally, refuse to even be friends with anyone who uses a plastic tablecloth, so this would not help in my case.

So, with little alternative, I crouched down so we were eyeball to eyeballand told this little angel,(in my best deadpan,icy cold voice) “if you don’t stop hassling my son, I’m going to drag you into the forrest, tie you to a tree, and let the bears eat you”

I am horrified by this story. I cannot imagine anybody deliberately scaring a 7 year old in this manner. I wonder if this kid will one day be describing this to a therapist.

Why didn’t you just threaten the mother that if her kid didn’t stop you would spread lashon hara about her?