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Well, I like Mod 80, and he is making a good point about following the torah even when it sounds odd, but I still think Mosherose is just- funny.
I think he’s funny. I was unsuspecting and did get riled up the first couple of times. I could see myself doing that as an alter ego.
Then, they will realize the ramifications of their short-sighted approach to learning but not earning.
I fail to see this argument. If in 20 years, it is no longer feasible, they will no longer do it. How does it makes sense to not learn now because in 20 years you won’t be able to.?In 100 years, we’ll be dead, and not able to learn at all, but it doesn’t stop me now.
I agree with gavra.
I find nothing remotely disturbing about this story.
Here’s another story:
Reuven comes to Rov and asks if his son Yehuda should marry Shprintza with bad middos or Yentel with good middos. He says good Yentel.
Shimon comes and asks if his daughter should marry Yehuda with bad middos. He says no.
“But you told Reuven his son should marry my daughter!”
And then on YWN they call the Rov a hypocrite.
It was the right thing for the father to learn; he was able to survive. It is the right thing to marry the girl with money; it will help you survive.
Besides, the logical conclusion of your argument is that the daughter should not marry a learning guy anyway, out of concern for her kids shidduchim, so who will learn?
I think wraps are hamotzi even if you eat only a little bit.
Am I incorrect?
The only ways I was aware of to get a baked, grain and water mixture, out of hamotzi are:
A. Subsequently cooked in liquid, subject to conditions.
B. Baked with a filling which renders it not a meal food.
C. Dry and brittle like crackers. Or like avim yevaishim.
Wraps are grain and water, are baked, have no filling, are not dry, and are not subsequently cooked.
What would get them out of hamotzi?
I usually try to assume the rav hamachshir is not taking responsibility for the bracha.
For the record, for Ashkenazim:
Bread is hamotzi.
Pizza bagels are hamotzi.
While there are circumstances which could change the above, you may rest assured that the one you are buying is hamotzi.
Charlie:
You don’t get any “mitzva credit” for anything your tax dollars go to; whether it be supporting torah, poor people, or anything.
The reason for this is that you did not have any choice in giving it.
An essential element in tzedaka is that choosing to give it.
One of my Roshei Yeshiva says that one would think that a communist society is the highest chessed. Truthfully, the problem with communism is that there is zero chessed. Nobody is giving of free will.
Robinhood’s victims did not do chessed when he robbed them.
What is the purpose of trying to define a term?
Unless you can convince everyone to use a standard definition, what is the purpose of the discussion
agree on the bored.
thats why i finally just made the list.
BP:
I agree with the compulsion issue. You’re preaching to the choir on that one.
At the same time, I respect the rights of adults to decide what sort of life they will lead.
I think often people forget that the wives deliberately chose this life, and would never have even consented to date this guy unless he was committing to this life.
Also, while I have much respect for working people who also learn, I don’t think it is fair to ask why someone would want more than that. As wonderful as learning 2-3 hours a say is, learning 10-11 is that much more wonderful.
BP:
I hope these couples continue to take one another’s needs into account. I assume they do.
Why do you assume not?
As far as the kids, it’s a good point. I’m not sure. Generally, the burden on the kids is not as bad as the parents.
I assume if they realize it has become too much of a burden on the kids, they take that into account as well.
SJS:
Ok, I hope we can agree on the following premises:
A. Societies, including ours, do legislate morality.
B. That is ok, as long as it is a true measure of the morality of the nation.
C. Subject to constitutional restrictions.
D. Our society finds homosexuality immoral.
E. Our society finds homosexual marriage immoral.
F. Our society sees a benefit in not allowing homosexual marriage.
G. Homosexual marriage is not per se assur, since it does not exist. Neither is incestuous marriage per se assur.
H. Men making other contracts is not immoral or assur.
Now, I think we disagree on:
A. Is homosexuality really immoral.
B. Is homosexual marriage really immoral.
C. Are things which are not per se assur against the ratzon hashem.
We probably also disagree on whether the US constitution bars bans on homosexual marriage. However, I have little interest in discussing this. I don’t believe either of us have the necessary knowledge to carry on a proper conversation on the issue. (You are an engineer, correct?)
Who among us is not in favor of long-time learning? I’ve been “out of yeshiva” for more than 20 years, yet still learn.
What I do have an issue with is, learning at the expense of others health and well being. Know how bad I would love to attend the 11:00am Daf shuir in BP? But quitting my job will mean lots of unhappy moments for the family I chose to bring into the world.
There is a time an place for everything.
I disagree. If you choose to sacrifice yourself and learn, who have you harmed? If you find a wife who wishes to sacrifice herself that you might learn, who has she harmed?
I think you are applying your own life decisions to other people who have made contrary ones.
Also, has Canada been zapped to the Ocean for allowing gay marriage? its been around for a while up there.
I don’t find this argument very convincing. Nor should you.
Republicans have packed the courts with judges who overturn decades-old precedents and make up laws from nothing.
Precisely. Decades old precedent. Reinstating the centuries old precedent.
Mod- I’m trying again.
BP: just put up a time and place where YWN singles will meet in Brooklyn, and you can moderate it. I must mention that I do not approve of it, though.
(definitely posted for amusement)
pudding green
(humor myself)
In California, a woman can be declared a father of a child and have to pay child support.
This happened when two women were living together and decided that one would have child and the other acted as if it was her child also.
In CA, when a man acts as if a child is his, it creates a presumption that it is his.
They applied this to the woman and declared her the father.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1131000643799532874&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
(posted to look knowledgeable.)
I once drank unpasteurized and non-homogenized milk a few minutes out of the cow. it was delicious.
(posted because I’d rather do this than what I’m supposed to be doing right now)
I don’t think you should give your kid junk to help her gain weight. Give her high calorie healthy food.
(posted to feel smart)
BP:
Women diet their whole lives. Men who want to lose weight do so.
Men do things. Women talk.
(To humor myself, by getting people mad. Also, so I could feel like I have willpower and other people don’t. Although, by ascribing it to gender, I’ve negated any credit I could claim. I’m still posting it, so I can look introspective. Although, how does posting it further that goal, since you don’t know me? Maybe I am doing it for the few readers who do know me?)
Why would you want to change your pronunciation and deliberately mispronounce davening? (As defined by your mesorah.)
I had a good idea which combined the ywn shidduchim idea with BP’s shidduch tumult idea, but it wasn’t allowed to post.
Can you all figure it out?
SJS:
Yes, I think it is immoral for two men to make any contract at all. That is why we have corporations, otherwise no business could be done at all except between a man and a woman.
By which I mean, I think I responded adequately. I hope you don’t think I’m a mean jerk anymore.
Charlie:
Perhaps you should watch tv or read the news and see what is being said by the people who you think agree with you.
Start dating.
Is there anything immoral about two men signing a contract together?
In my opinion, and that of most Americans, Yes.
Would you want to limit interracial marriage? Or interfaith marriage?
If it was immoral, yes. Of course, the constitution would bar it, but I would try.
The American system of law agrees that there is nothing wrong with killing animals as long as you do so humanely. That’s why cockfights are illegal. Its only PETA who thinks animals are equal or greater to humans. And they have the right to not eat animals. Imagine if their morality was forced on the rest of us! No one is asking you to contribute to a gay marriage.
Precisely. Most Americans think cockfighting and gay marriage are immoral, and so we force it on everyone. Force. Most Americans think eating meat is moral. Thats why the PETA kookoos haven’t succeeded in forcing it on us.
I’m not a witch, I’m you!
Perhaps we can’t achieve Avrohom Avinu’s madreiga… but we should strive to come as close as possible.
Yes, we should. But some things are only appropriate and only make sense once you are on the higher levels.
Ridiculous.
I would never let somebody daven for me if their purpose was so they would be answered before me. How could you violate somebody worse than taking advantage of their needs like this?
SJS:
A. I ask for freedoms, not as a jew, as a person.
B. My asking for freedoms always affects other people’s freedom, but it doesn’t affect gay marriage.
C. Society does legislate morality. We don’t listen to PETA because we think they are crazy. However, it is illegal to have dogfights and cockfights, because we think it is immoral. Also gay marriage.
D. I find your nitpicking about the marriage not being against halacha ridiculous. Besides, I am not trying to impose my religion, only my morals. Gay marriage is against my morals, as well as the morals of most Americans.
But still, what is the answer to my question: How am I a mean jerk for opposing gay marriage, believing as I do that it is immoral and contrary to public policy interests?
Without using the word discrimination please, the word has lost all meaning. Tell me in plain english how I am mean.
feif:
Huh?
Why are you taking this to mean that daf yomi is not learning, instead of taking it to mean that daf yomi is not as serious as learning two or three hours a day?
sorry.
I am asking which of those things is a problem, and which is a problem which will be addressed by this solution.
Meaning- The age of the boys and girls is not a problem (unless are you in age gap theory?). The plans of support may be a problem, but I do not see how singles events will solve it.
minyan gal:
My argument has little to do with science, and much to do with history. And common sense.
The logic, broken down, is:
If something has been happening forever, and is still happening, it is probably for the same reason as before.
SJS:
I do not understand your contention. Without any statutory language (like discrimination and equal rights), please explain why Popa_bar_abba, if he were a legislator, would be a mean jerk if he did not allow gay marriage.
Assume Senator Popa has decided that homosexual behavior is immoral, and that public policy is served by homosexual marriage not being allowed.
Popa does not think Popa is a mean jerk. Popa is well acquainted with mean jerks and is well able to distinguish them.
True, most Lakewood boys do get married within a year, but at what age, and to what age counterpart? And what do they plan to do once their primary source of cash (wife or parents) decide Dayeinu?
Which of these is a problem and also will be addressed by shidduch tumult?
Global warming is one of the biggest scams ever perpetrated by man.
The earth may be warming. The earth has warmed before; it has cooled before. It is cyclical. History has many showings of long cold periods and warm periods. We track the changes in European life in the middle ages on account of the earths warming and cooling cycles.
There is no reason to assume that a current warming is caused by the extra CO2 that we are emitting, especially as it is grossly superseded by the amount the world emits anyway, making it completely insignificant.
Scam.
charlie:
Ok, firstly, I put little meaning on senator’s signing AIPAC’s “pledge of allegiance”, since that is really what they are about.
I am surprised that you debate that conservatives are more supporting of Israel’s policies. All the conservative talk shows, which I’m sure you abhor, are the first to defend Israel when it comes under international condemnation.
When Israel boarded the ship several months ago, the entire world was against them. The media painted it in the worst light, burying all the exonerating details. Did Obama stand up and say, “this is absurd, they are enforcing a neccesary blockade, in a legal way, and were merely defending themselves against lethal attacks to their bodies”? No. Did Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannitty, Mark Levin, Etc.. say that? Yes.
Did every left wing academic denounce Israel for it? Yes.
Did every right wing academic defend Israel? What’s a right wing academic.
Really. Be liberal, support the health care bill if you like. You don’t need to believe in every part of liberalism to accept most of it. But recognize that liberalism and anti-israeli sentiment are intertwined.
SJS:
No, Some were claiming that it is wrong for society to impose morals. It is not wrong, it is part of what all societies rightfully do.
Now, in response to your question; I do support imposing morals, in America. We have a constitution which protects us from overreaches.
charlie:
Look, if you believe in liberal politics, that is fine. But you should be able to support high taxes, a welfare state, heavy regulation, a weak foreign presence, and abortion- without needing to say that the liberal movement is pro Israel!
It really is absurd to think that they do support Israel. It is clear that the denouncements of Israel’s policies come from the left, and the stronger condemnations come from the stronger lefties. It is part of their ideology to believe
A.that the stronger party in a dispute is always wrong in using force, and that
B. The governments created by the colonial powers are an evil imposition on the native people.
Now, you may agree with those assertions, in which case your support for Israel is in the abstract. If that is the case, you are not a supporter of Israel in the classical sense. You are a supporter in the abstract.
I support Israel because I support their policies. I would not support them if I thought they were murdering colonials.
Are we discussing whether it is not nice to deny two men the ability to marry one another?
Why should it be wrong for society to make moral judgments, and discourage the things it finds immoral?
Now, you could disagree with out moral judgment, but you shouldn’t consider me not nice.
You could make a constitutional argument, but that is irrelevant to Judaism.
Why is this a good idea?
I assume we’re talking about lakewood guys. The vast majority of lakewood guys are married within a year of beginning to date. There is no problem. What are you trying to solve?
You can just ask us any hashkafa questions you have. We can help.
But don’t listen to the following posters:
Edited
Yes, I have davened for things which should have come b’teva, and they inexplicably did not come.
I hope you will continue to daven after hearing my story.
Would it have been better or worse if he had said, “the special needs people from the Westboro Baptist Church”
Google ladder theory.
Wolf:
Our fundamental belief is that G-d exists as one controlling all powerful being as a matter of simple logic.
Otherwise, we could not be held accountable for any of our actions, since we could defend that we did not know G-d existed, or that there was not another god for us to serve. This is discussed by R’ Elchonon Wasserman, where he posits that every person in the world is responsible for the 7 mitzvos bnei noach by due of its being obvious that there is One G-d.
Har sinai only shows that there is a G-d who gave us a torah, it does not presuppose the existence of Zues and his cronies on Mt. Olympus.
I’m sorry if this is against science, but the existence of the world proves beyond any doubt that there is One G-d. Anyone who doesn’t believe that doesn’t really believe that there is One G-d, so they are an apikores and they should make kiddush on mevushal wine because their wine is yayin nesech.
Wolf:
You do realize that even if one can reconcile evolution and Judaism, it is only by realizing that evolution would have been impossible except as directed by One G-d.
Avraham avinu figured that out. He looked at the world and concluded that the only possibility to explain its existence is creation by one G-d.
Otherwise, why do you believe in one G-d? Maamad har sinai only proves that there is at least one G-d.
Post Darwin science thinks that what Avraham did is irrelevant, they would laugh me for mentioning some desert dweller from 4000 years ago. Are you laughing?
Evolutionary theory is so important to modern biology that if you reject it, you really do have to reject all of modern biology.
Charlie:
What do you mean by that? You seem to know a lot more about science than I do, but isn’t biology mostly about the way things work as they are today? Is understanding cellular function, or how different enzymes and chemicals interact in living things dependent on evolutionary theory?
If a girl is working her head off to support her husband so he can learn, then the least he can do is LEARN.
Why should he? What’s the difference? She wanted a yeshiva guy so she could tell her friends, and make her rebbetzins proud. She got what she wanted.
Seriously, once she marries him, she should be trying to do what is best for him and her. If this is who he is, you can’t change that. You need to live with the husband you have, not the one you want.
If she feels like she was misled into marriage, I feel bad for her. If being misled into marriage is a common problem, perhaps it is time to rethink how we date.