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How else should they get around? They certainly can’t drive before they’re married!
I am sorry you all feel this way about politics. I am a state senator in California, and I am doing my best to honestly and honorably help the people of my state.
Wolf:
I think you are incorrect. We don’t listen to bas kol’s. We just follow halacha. The halacha is you kill him. Like the tanur.
Bomb:
That is precisely what I am saying. Now we are talking. It is moral for innocents to be killed. !!!
We do kill people who are innocent, if halacha demands. Goyish courts are supposed to kill innocent people, if their legitimate legal system demands.
Morality is purely what halacha requires. For goyim, it is purely what the 7 mitzvos require.
As for your concern about jews being caught in their system, that is also what halacha requires- since the goyim are supposed to make systems. I cannot criticize anything which halacha requires. Neither should you.
Charlie:
Sure, that is an idea, we could cut some costs by illegalizing technology which the government thinks doesn’t work.
But, if the issue is the technologies that don’t work, why do care if they are only accessible to people who can afford it?
Charlie:
Do you agree with my basic assumptions; that costs will rise indefinitely unless either technology is made illegal or selling health care is illegal?
Yes charlie:
We need to decide if we would rather divide a fixed amount of services based on money, or government decision. I vote for money. You vote for government decision. I voted against Obama(I didn’t care for McCain either). You voted for him.(I assume)
You might reword government decision to “need”. That would not change my opinion. This is largely because the need will be more than the supply, so I will not get it when I need, if someone else needs it more. I would rather it be rationed by money.
If it’s advice you need. Make less money and sign up for medicaid. Also, if you are not getting Social Security for 40 years, you are mid twenties. Under a law going into effect in January, you may be able to get back on your parents plan until 26.
(In effect, this law makes it illegal to buy a policy which will not cover your kids until 26. Does anybody support such a thing? Why should parents need to cover kids until 26?)
Ok, I’ll put it differently.
Imagine you are a dayan in a capital case. There are two kosher eidim, and everything has been met. But, a bas kol says, “he didn’t do it.” Would you execute the innocent “murderer”? What would G-d want you to do?
When a goyish court uses standards which are allowed by G-d for them, the same is true. G-d wants them to execute the people they find guilty under standards which are acceptable for them. I am happy when G-d’s will is done. I hope you will be happy with me.
OK. Popa’s turn.
I love talking about health insurance.
Health insurance is a problem that will never go away unless we change the premises.
Technology is improving in all fields at a rapid pace. In most fields, we don’t invest in it, and don’t use what could be available, because it costs too much.
In medicine, we use all the most sophisticated advances, and invest heavily in making new ones. This is not surprising; we will pay everything we have to be cured when we are sick. Therefore, we will continue to invent new, necessarily more expensive, procedures and machines, and all pay to use them. We will only stop when we run out of available credit and assets.
So, is there no way out? Health care costs cannot go down, they can only go up. If a new machine is invented, we will want to use it. It will cost more.
As long as we insist that everyone must have access to the highest quality health care, costs will always go up.
There are two ways out.
A. We can prohibit new research. In five years, todays technology will be cheap, and health care will be cheap.
B. We can supply a fixed amount of care, and ration it based on need, not based on money. It will be illegal to pay for health care. Then, we only supply the amount that society can afford. (This is what Canada and Europe do. Yes, it is.)
If neither of those options is palatable, we need to rethink our assumption that everyone should get highest quality health care. Maybe it is ok for society to allow everyone to get the level they can afford. We can allow companies to sell insurance policies which cover 1995 technology only. Or, foreign educated doctors only. Hey, Japanese in 1995 weren’t so terribly neglected.
Bombmaniac:
I think I was pretty clear. I’m not sure how you are misunderstanding me.
As far as deterrent. I have not contended that there is a deterrent value, look at my post on page one, about 4 posts down.
SJS: Yes, of course we are bothered by executing any people. What I meant is that we do not consider it an injustice based on the the person’s actual innocence or guilt, rather, we consider it injustice based on our following the procedures handed to us by the good L-rd.
bombmaniac:
I don’t follow. If nobody has done anything wrong, no wrong is done.
If the courts are allowed to dispense justice as they see justice to be, their doing so is indeed proper.
We are not bothered when a jewish murderer is executed. We are bothered if the court acted improperly.
Our only job in this world is to do what G-d wants. G-d wants us to run our courts in a certain way, and for the goyim to run their courts in a certain way. The results are G-d’s job. (He does a good job.)
We are not bothered if we execute 1 million innocent people. We are bothered if we execute even one murderer, if the witnesses were brothers.
We are not bothered if the goyim execute myriads of innocent people. We are only bothered if they do things which are unjust.
I have no reason to believe that the American legal system is not reasonably just. They try their best; its pretty good. It’s not against halacha, and it’s not against my morals.
I like this.
I’m not sure how the existence of a NY hashgacha with the same initials has any bearing on how reliable the CRC of chicago is.
In any event, kashrus in NY is much worse than in chicago. In chicago, there is one hashgacha and almost all the establishments are under it. If you get dropped, you’re done.
In NY, if you get dropped, you pick up the next one. I would never eat anywhere in Brooklyn. (except the pizza shops, you can’t get good pizza anywhere else, and there aren’t as many issues with pizza.)(And subsational, that’s also worth an exception.)(And if you happen to want cholent on tuesday- what could be wrong with cholent?)
You don’t see kashrus scandals in Baltimore, you see them in the NY. (For me, monsey is NY)
Yes, aidel is naive.
Has anyone heard the term “Hadarling”?
Does that mean aidel?
I read the article and thought it was asinine.
This idea in particular, that shemiras haeinayim is connected to people going off, I find to be very shallow.
Well, I’m predicting this guy is going to earn gelt online.
This is fascinating. I’m going to have to google this.
you SO do not know my husband!
I do. I’m his chavrusa. He said he only pretends to like it to make you happy.
bombmaniac:
Where do you get this idea that goyish courts need to use our standards of evidence?
Also, even if they do, that would preclude them from giving jail sentences also.
monseygirl:
You should go to Meor.
Yes. We come late, leave early, and complain that they go too fast.
Popa is the seminary expert.
You should go to Hadar. It’s a perfect fit; you’ll love it.
(It’s also very close to the dining room.)
Moq;
You are of course correct, that life is about doing what is right, not about fair.
I have a certain notion.
Perhaps it would be nice, when looking into girls, to do a “chessed checking into” for girls who suffer traditional bias. For example, a yesoma. I could see someone saying, “this idea is not worth my time, I have so many better suggestions, but I’ll spend the time to help a yesoma, and check into her”. The same could really be done for a Baalas teshuva.
we are not obligated in Succah, either, so why am I getting stuck with the decorating every year????????? 🙂
You are stuck with the decorating because your husband doesn’t care if he lives in a barn.
Oomis:
While it is true that killing people is the most certain incapacitation, the death penalty is usually advanced on the grounds of retribution. I notice nobody else here is interested in retribution, only deterrent.
Deterrence makes no sense as a sole justification for punishing people.
If you believe that deterrence is enough justification on its own, you would support punishing people as long as we can convince everyone else that they did it, regardless of if they actually did it.
Deterrence only makes any sense with an appreciation for retribution.
hello99:
Wafers are not hamotzi because they are “avim yevaishim”. I don’t know what avim means, but yevaishim means dry.
I don’t see how that would apply to wraps.
Did you say you don’t want to hear a man’s perspective?
How about on this thread?
No wife? Then what is the problem? Leave it there.
It’s not so hard.
In both, the learning is pretty much what you’d expect. A lot of chumash, navi, halacha, mussar.
The main difference is that bnos sarah is newer so it attracts that crowd.
The girls who go to both are more or less the same, although, the same girl almost never goes to both.
Also, Bnos sarah is closer to the dining room, since it’s in building 7. But bnos chava is closer to the payis building, so that’s something to consider.
I’d say, it sounds like you want Bnos sara, go for it.
Also, do you know hebrew?
I’m vaguely recalling that it refers to the reason why a shomer aveida is a shomer sachar. He is “paid” in his not having to give tzedaka to an ani who comes while he is involved in the aveida.
Charlie:
What are the standards required of Noahide courts? I’m unfamiliar with anything which discusses that.
There is a Young Israel shul in my neighborhood that has an open parking lot on Shabat. Doctors on call and hatzalah volunteers use it.
What are you trying to say?
Well, if you graduated BY in ’93, it’s a little late to be going to seminary.
There are 4 reasons why we might punish criminals. The death penalty serves 1, and arguably a second.
They are:
Retribution- This is pure justice. If the world were ending today, we would punish him any way.
The death penalty makes the most sense in this context.
Deterrence- We want to deter future crime. If the world were ending, we would not need to worry about future crime.
It is arguable whether there is a deterrent value to the death penalty.
Rehabilitation- We want to rehabilitate criminals.
The death penalty makes no sense in this context.
Incapacitation- To prevent criminals from continuing to do crime, we lock them up.
The death penalty does not incapacitate more than life in prison.
In Judaism, it is clear that we are at least also focused on retribution. Hence in parshas noach, the torah says, “shofech dam haodom, baodom damo yishafech”. I take that as retribution.
In my opinion, the principal reason why liberals and conservatives disagree on this is that liberals do not see society as justified in taking moral positions, which is a premise of retribution. Conservatives are more willing to allow society to make moral judgments, including that certain people deserve death.
d a:
go to http://www.lmgtfy.com/
Let Me Google That For You.
it creates the link, and then turns it into a tinyurl
Well, since we seem to like the Conservative “teshuvos”, I’ll tell over a good one.
The question was: Do the Conservative recognize Reform conversion?
This was a loaded question. If the answer is no, they would lose their complaint against the Orthodox for not recognizing them. If the answer is yes, they are admitting that they do not follow halacha, since the Reform do not even claim to be following halacha.
They answered: Reform conversion is meaningless, but, Reform converts are Jewish.
They addressed the contradiction by pointing to the gemara in Yevamos, Perek 2, where Beis Hillel and Beis Shamai argue about the status of a tzara erva. It came out according to Beis Hillel, that some of Beis shamai’s families were mamzerim, and accoridng to Beis shamai, some of Beis Hillel’s families were “pagum”. Nevertheless, the gemara says that they used to marry from each other’s families.
The conservative “poskim” pointed to this as proof that even if someone else has an invalid belief, we still accept the results of their action.
They then noted that Rashi states that Beis Hillel and Shamai would tell the others which families were forbidden to them, and they would marry accordingly. However, the conservative stated that the gemara could also be read not like Rashi.
Actually, it is the gemara which says that they would warn each other which families not to marry.
Isn’t that interesting?
Tell your wife to clean it up. That should do the trick.
minyan gal:
It is prohibited for any rabbi to serve on a council of rabbis where conservative rabbis are included.
This is accepted throughout Orthodoxy, and agreed to by Rav JB Soloveichik, so it is accepted by YU as well.
If I lived in a community with only a conservative shul, I would not attend. My Judaism is about what G-d wants, not about what is comfortable to me. I believe that G-d would rather me stay home.
I don’t think you are a bad person. I’m sorry if you think I do. I think you have been misled. I do disrespect those who mislead you.
Again, all I ask is you to understand the rules which bind me, and how I cannot recognize your movement.
What happens after the “pointless” third date?
Ok. Here is part of the truth. People think that:
A. Many BT’s are weird. A little off.
B. If you are a changing person, how is anyone to know how set you are in what you are doing now.
C. Some BT’s seem to be living in a different sort of world, where ideals replace realities. This is closely connected to A.
Popa being cynical:
A. Maybe your sincerity scares people off who aren’t as sincere.
B. Maybe people who do not see much worth in Judaism, and are only continuing to do what they have always done; don’t see anything in common with people who choose it willingly.
Now, I know what I am alleging is anecdotal,and I’m going to be yelled at. I can handle the yelling. The OP wanted to know what stereotype she is battling.
cynical:
I’m fascinated that you are posting here. I will refrain from commenting on your screen-name.
I’m sorry you feel that there is not friendship and respect among the different types of Jews. However, it is clear that you will continue to think so as long as you define such friendship as us doing things which are not permitted.
I do respect you as people and am friends with some of you.
We do not respect or recognize your movement, organizations, temples, “rabbis”, and institutions.
We cannot make joint kiddush with your shul, we do not recognize it as a shul and do not want to give that impression.
We will not make joint learning programs; any of your members are welcome to join ours, though.
There are many places in America where your kids and ours do play on the same leagues, but you cannot really expect us to allow our kids exposure to the things your kids are doing.
Our rabbis cannot stand together with your “rabbis”, in any rabbinical function.
I’d like to throw the disrespect question back to you. If you cannot respect our following halacha, inasmuch as it calls for a non-recognizing of your institutions, in what way do you respect us. I’m not asking you to respect our halacha, all I ask is you respect our need to follow it.
sorry. that wasn’t so nice.
whats a “troll”
mod 80: how do you type hebrew?
ben torah:
I’ll defend squeak. He was responding to the public perception of Mosherose; not to mosherose.
squeak: You like?
Wolf:
I don’t bash the people, the one’s I know are very nice people. I strongly would bash the leaders and the movement. I say “would”, because there I have no purpose in doing so.
SJS:
We disagree on whether it is proper to learn and neglect your tuition obligations.
We can disagree on this issue. But we should agree on the premises.
I think there is a personal decision, and a community decision.
The personal decision should be made in accordance with the opinion of your rebbeim. My rebbeim think it is more important to learn.
The community decision should be made by the school in accordance with their rabbis.
If you have made a personal decision which is not the same as your schools decision, if it really bothers you, you can switch schools.
SJS:
That doesn’t bother me.
I don’t think a person is negligent towards klal yisroel if his learning precludes him from paying his kids tuition- in the present or in the future.
As far as your family’s needs, you need to be honest and also get advice from daas torah. Perhaps if you wish to learn, you should only date girls from wealthy families. That would narrow your options, but you need to be honest about what your goals are.
The culture of dependency may have very negative long term effects.
Perhaps. There is a different culture, which criticizes people who learn, without any real regard for what is actually going on. That culture has very serious short and long term effects.
By which I mean. We can have this discussion. But it needs to be honest on both sides, and cannot have any prejudices. I perceive that often, arguments against those who learn, are not rooted in any reality.