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80: What do we say here?
Thanks mods!
That is true we do not blow shofar at nigh[t]
Maybe we don’t blow it at night, because people are sleeping, but we do blow it during the day when you aren’t supposed to sleep.
Ive read Art Scroll Biographies and regular biographies
By which you mean, you’ve read artscroll biographies, and The Making of a Gadol.
Let me just be clear, I’m not advocating or approve their actions, i don’t. I just don’t see a great danger in their action. The hate response doesn’t add-up with their actions/consequences.
That is good. I actually thought you were one of them.
The hate does not stem from the consequences. It stems from the callousness to our suffering, and the intention to harm us.
Now, you say they actually don’t intend to harm us, and are only pretending to, and justify that their actions are of small effect anyway.
Perhaps that is true, and perhaps not. But it sure seems like they’re trying to harm us, and you can’t fault me for thinking so. It is what they profess after all. (They certainly profess that they are trying to influence Israeli government action, which will harm us, as I explained. That is what I am referring to.)
And they certainly are callous to our suffering. We are being slaughtered in the streets, while they meet with and praise the enemy.
Maybe you think it is all a game they are playing, but it is well played, and I think they are for real.
So I hate them.
Is that unjustified?
I see. So your position is that the NK aren’t concerned about the effects, because they are only a few people, and can’t have a great effect.
That is true, they are only a few people, and they cannot have a great effect.
Yet, I question:
That is true of everyone who tries to cause effects, and the aggregate effect is felt. Does everyone really have a ptur that they only contributed a little bit?
“If logic shows that it should have an effect, it is still fine because in 20 years no arab stabbed a jew at one of their protests?”
Thats exactly my point, both evidence and logic shows that it has no effect. The logical part is, why would an Arab kill a Jew because some dude said he wants to be friends with the Arabs.
You are confusing the issue. The harm is from our inability to fight back. That has a clear logical link.
Also, you still have not responded why it is fine for them to do something which is logically dangerous, based on some internet poster (me) not being able to find a definite effect to your level of proof.
If I am correct and they are contributing to our not being able to fight back, shouldn’t they stop?
Shouldn’t they need to prove that is not happening, before they can continue?
Aren’t they at least being reckless, even under your definitions? (I personally think they are being purposeful, which is more than reckless, but we can proceed that you should at least agree they are being reckless.)
I will note that under the common law, reckless killing is manslaughter, while extreme reckless killing is murder.
Methinks hello is in Israel, based on post history.
No i do not go around hating people based on a believe that has no facts. Religion is the only believe, anything else is based on facts or logic.
That is apikorsus. That Hashem exists is completely logical.
Operating a significant number of years and not one single incident as a direct consequence, that’s a fact.
I honestly have no idea what you are looking for. You want an arab to stab a jew at one of their protests? And if that doesn’t happen then what they are doing is fine? If logic shows that it should have an effect, it is still fine because in 20 years no arab stabbed a jew at one of their protests?
And even if an arab did stab a jew at one of their protests, then you would be convinced? No, because maybe he would have anyway.
I dont just believe that smoking causes cancer, i know its a scientific fact killing close to a half a million people yearly.
It is scientific fact, because we can see that more people who smoke get cancer than people who don’t smoke. And because we can identify a link which makes sense.
Nobody ever pointed to a cancer patient and could say definitely that smoking caused his cancer. You could not convict a man of retzicha for forcing someone to smoke for 50 years until he died of lung cancer.
Wow, that’s a pretty eloquent post. Too bad it is just more disguising instead of responding.
I asked why you can’t believe that what they are doing is dangerous to us.
You respond that one should not hate based on beliefs.
Where do you dream that up? Are there now distinctions between beliefs and logic? Do you usually believe things which are not logical? Will you make this about the word I chose, which you assigned meaning to which does not even exist?
Besides, is it proper for someone to do something which be believes, even might, lead to Jews being killed?
The onus is on you to prove that what they are doing is not harmful and dangerous.
And presumably you should use your own standard of evidence, where we need clear and convincing evidence showing how in every single case of violence against Jews, the NK’s actions logically could not have contributed.
And until then, I will you hate them. ??? ?????? ? ????.
(Also, nobody has ever shown a single case of lung cancer which definitely would not have happened but for smoking. You are exactly correct that there is scientific evidence. You are exactly incorrect, because scientific evidence is based on what makes sense. Which is exactly what I’m showing.)
You, sir, are quite pathetically mistaken.
You have imposed a ridiculous standard, by which you measure their actions. You refuse to believe they could be doing any harm, unless there are verified specific examples of where harm would not have been done without them.
By that standard, you could not show that smoking causes cancer.
For some reason, you need to believe that they aren’t killing us and collaborating with the enemy.
From the fact that your posts are mostly just long rants about the “zionists”, I’m guessing that is what is driving you to believe that anyone who opposes the “zionists” must be good.
So, like I said before; go away. I have nothing more to say. We don’t agree on the premises, so there is no reason to discuss.
go away.
I read your response. It was very long.
I see you saying two things.
A. The zionists are the cause of all arab attacks. I will concede this for purposes of this discussion, since it is irrelevant.
B. You want me to bring clear proof of a person who was killed, where the NK were a “but for” cause of the attack.
I cannot bring such a case, since it doesn’t exist. Every attack has multiple causes.
But, that doesn’t mean their actions don’t contribute.
You can’t show that Al Sharpton was a cause of the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum either. But his action certainly was a cause, and was almost as bad as the NK do every day (it was worse in that instance, but if you aggregate everything the NK do, they are much worse.)
So, perhaps you think that there are no consequences to actions where we can’t see a clear unequivocal connection, and the action is a sole cause. But, that is ridiculous.
Now, rant about the zionists again. It is irrelevant.
Thanks for joining us in the CR.
Ok, I will spell it out as best I can, although I was not aware that this is contentious.
A. We will start with the premise, that the IDF responds often with less force than necessary and proper under the circumstances. And that the reason for that is we are afraid of making the world too mad at us, and alienating the few friends we have left- particularly the USA.
Our example throughout this will be when we boarded the ship, the Mavi Marmara, which was bringing presumed weapons to Gaza.
B. We will then make the simple step of assuming, that IDF soldiers are often injured or killed during these operations, in ways they would not have been if proper force had been used.
So in our example, we will say that had the ship been torpedoed, as is proper for an invading vessel, the IDF soldier who was thrown off the deck and fell several stories, would not have been hurt.
C. We will then say, that our civilians are also often hurt as a result of this, since the military operations cannot be as effective.
In our example, we will say that if subsequent boats succeed in bringing rockets or explosives in, it may be because we are not willing to torpedo them. This is not a great example, since the Mavi Marmara incident was actually successful in stopping that boat.
D. We will assume that public demonstrations, lobbying, and press, affect public opinion. This is presumably why people make these demonstrations.
There were much bad press about the Mavi Marmara, with all sorts of anti semites and NK reshaim accusing us of using “disproportionate force”. As if one is supposed to use force only proportionate to the people trying to kill you.
E. We will assume that governments represent their citizens interests. We can see that governments act in the interests of their citizens, and -for example- if the French people are opposed to us, their government will represent them in that. Thus, we should assume that demonstrations, lobbying, and press influence public opinion, which in turn influence government action.
(alternatively, we can imagine that demonstrations merely serve to convince governments of what public opinion is, but the effect is the same.)
Many world governments singled us out for criticism in the aftermath of this incident, and it will probably negatively affect how we are able to respond to future incidents. Additionally, it hurt our relationship with Turkey, which may not have happened if the rest of the world didn’t agree with the reshaim of NK.
Therefore, we can easily say, that bad PR, leads to dangerous and ineffective military action, which leads to lives lost.
The reshaim of NK are among the criticizers of the Mavi Marmara incident, which cannot be criticized with a straight face if one has the slightest inkling of what happened on that boat. I found the reshaim’s protests on their website.
Now, your colleague “Peacemaker” seems to not care about what happens to Jewish people who agree with the “zionists”. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/104434/Turkey-Releases-Names-Of-IDF-Members-Involved-In-Flotilla.html But excuse me if I do care.
If you disagree with this, please specify which step. Please do not litter your response with the issue of whether we are safer with the christians or moslems. That really is not the issue. You can put that in another post.
dunno: Drinks. Not soda.
No, I was on JetBlue, and there was no Wifi.
Additionally, the TV wasn’t working. They said they’d give us 15 buck voucher. i thought they should just give us free drinks
I agree with PBA. The more educated one is, the more the need for intellectual stimulation exists. Women today are a lot more educated than they were prior to the Bais Yakov movement.
?? ??? ???? ?? ??, that when I am making a joke, they take me seriously. (no hocking on this, or I’m calling you joseph)
Because on Friday we have too much time.
That is why for yontiff we make round challos. Because on Erev Yontiff we only have time to mush it into a blob and throw it in the oven.
That is also why we have raisins in the challah on yontiff. So we shouldn’t notice the pieces of potato kugel or whatever that also got accidentally mushed in.
PBA – So IYHO is that the only thing that makes a girl great?
Who said my O is H?
Besides, the question here is what makes a girl “great”; not what makes a girl “acceptable”. Of course to be acceptable, she must be a good person, who is working on herself and developing.
If chup is not Joseph, then I really am Mod 80!
And no, I have not been around longer than anyone here. I have been posting for about year and a quarter, and had the username for a while before that.
looks
Chup is awfully involved for someone who’s been here for one day. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/profile/chup
Hmmmmmmm
(we might add, that if chup is a troll, then this story http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lesson-of-bitochon-in-shidduchim was probably made up. Oh well)
I have declared myself to me mod 80 numerous times.
The other mods won’t mod while I’m on a plane, in case it crashes, there shouldn’t be leitzanus.
Women don’t need to listen to the torah, since they aren’t really jewish
I am honored. There is a moratorium on posting while I am on a plane.
Well, I will be on a plane again tuesday night. So everyone, please remember to not post.
If nobody leined, then nobody in the congregation could talk during leining. So, by your leining, you are doing lifnei iver for the whole shul.
Had I davened in a different shul, you might have a point. Fortunately, however, I happen to daven in a shul where I am the only one who talks during laining.
Sounds like you should switch to a shul where everyone talks during leining.
We don’t know what UK stands for.
Does it stand for Uman Kollel?
See now, if you want to feel guilty for leining, maybe this is a better way to do it:
If nobody leined, then nobody in the congregation could talk during leining. So, by your leining, you are doing lifnei iver for the whole shul.
What makes you say answering amen is any more mandatory than laining?
Yes, you could choose to be the chazzan, and then not have to answer amen.
Why don’t you just cut and paste on your computer from an online version of tehillim onto your email.
I find this site useful for basic tanach and such.
I hope the mods will allow this, it is wiki of seforim. http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%98
I recommend that just for rosh hashana, Wolf should try to restrict his talking to only 6 aliyos, instead of 8.
On another note, the rav of my shul always talks during shofar. Plus, the chazan always talks during chazaras hashatz.
I should add, that even though Wolf claims not to talk during chazaraz hashatz, he is then guilty of not answering amen, and kedusha. Shver tzu zein Wolf.
Tell your friend, that it may be a good point, but she needs to understand where these people are coming from.
These other women, actually have some intellect and intelligence, so they have a desire to stimulate it. Your friend can’t understand that desire without having intellectual capability.
(I can be nasty and mean, since your friend posts through a proxy, and can’t defend herself. Hee hee.)