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“As an extreme example, if you find an old minhag to put a fir tree in your living room on Channuka, and you decide to adopt that minhag because you want to fit in with your goyish neighbors, you are still doing something wrong- even if there is some basis. Because of your motivation.”
That would be because the fir tree has specifically come to symbolize the goyishe holiday. I would not color hardboiled eggs for Pesach, either. But making a Friday night oneg shabbos on the occasion of the birth of either a son OR daughter, does not seem to be commensurate with either of those things.
Ah, but you’re changing the topic. I am discussing only the motivation.
Won’t you agree that the fir tree motivation is bad. And that the motivation would be bad enough to sink it regardless of anything else?
Look, let’s get out premises out.
Premise: If the motivation is bad, the action is bad. (meaning, worse than a neutral motivation- a bad motivation.)
Now, we should either argue about that premise, or argue about what the motivation is in this case, or about whether that motivation is bad.
I think the motivation is to show that women and men are in all ways equal and have equal roles, and that any minhag we have which differentiates men and women was done for chauvinistic reasons. Do you disagree?
I think that motivation is bad, because it substitutes modern morality for chazal and the torah’s morality. Do you disagree?
you are receiving credit for the food and eating it.?
Why not? The store didn’t ask for it back, did they? Who does it help to throw it out?
middlepath:
It’s alright. I’m not upset; I just saw an opportunity to write something funny back.
My YW persona writes funny things, and doesn’t care what other people think about them. (including what they think about the relative funnyness.)
Ok, so the question on the floor is:
Is it lashon hara to for two people who see someone do something together, to then speak to each other derogatorily about it?
I will try to pull out the ol’ sefer chofetz chaim over shabbos, and get back to you.
Ok, so I wasn’t able to go through it as much as I’d have liked, but here is what I’m thinking: Isn’t this identical to the story of Miriam, where both miriam and aharon knew what had happened, and it was still lashon hara to talk about it it in a derogatory manner.
And is lashon hara generally anything you say which will cause someone harm, and won’t it cause someone harm if you point out to other people bad what she is doing is?
As an aside, I will tell you my funny rant about sefer chofetz chaim. It says in 4:6 that you are allowed to tell someone’s rebbi about his aveiros if that will help him, and you can even do so if the rebbi is not so careful and might tell other people about it.
So I was wondering, what kind of rebbi goes around telling lashon hara about his talmidim?
No wonder his talmidim are doing aveiros.
gefen: I don’t know about that. If it was below the standard they expected, then they had a legitimate complaint. It might still be edible, and they were hungry. I don’t see anything bizarre here.
You know, I just saw a girl with a nose piercing, and I was thinking how unfrum it looked.
But really, what’s the big deal?
I mean, if a girl in flatbush did it, it would stand out. But other than that, why not?
You are asking if they can use the credit? Assuming they were legitimately complaining, I don’t see why not.
Why do you assume the complaint was not legitimate?
What is the question?
Why can’t we say that the Gedolim were also influenced by the socities they lived in to a degree?
Well, inasmuch as I believe that the torah is the source of my morality, I get my sense of morality from what chazal say.
So, it wouldn’t really make much sense to bring my outside morality which I get from the “great moralists of modern society,” and then imply that chazal were immoral.
It is quite an accusation against chazal, and quite anti-torah.
It is also a weird accusation. Chazal were not influenced by the morality of their day in any direction. While the goyim’s notions have been swinging wildly back and forth, we have stayed the same in our notions of morality. So it is a bit weird to say that chazal’s thinking about women was influenced by the drunken goyim in their Babylonian villages any more than their thinking about anything else.
Tell us a bit more about this town:
Is there a yeshiva day school?
Is there a mikva?
Is there an orthodox shul?
Is there a yeshiva high school?
Is there a girls high school?
Some think that chassidus did fizzle out, and that most of what the Gra was opposed to isn’t practiced anymore anyway (except by one certain group of chassidim, who are pretty much considered fringe by normative orthodoxy).
Would you prefer the word paralyzed?
Actually, that would solve half the problem.
The word “hostage” implies that she is being held back from doing something, and also that it is someone else who is holding her back.
Neither of those are true to any extent at all, so it is twice wrong.
The word “paralyzed” implies she is held back from doing something, but does not imply it is being imposed on her by someone else. So it is only wrong once. Which is twice as good.
If you want a word which is accurate, you might say “while she is on some other boy’s list”. The word “is” captures the meaning you are (should be) trying to convey perfectly.
Zebed Habat (aka simchat bat) has been a part of the Sefardi mesora for quite some time. Get a copy of a siddur nusach “edut hamizrach”.
You know, you are arguing to a strawman. The main problem is not that it doesn’t have a sufficient basis. The main problem is the reason it is being done.
As an extreme example, if you find an old minhag to put a fir tree in your living room on Channuka, and you decide to adopt that minhag because you want to fit in with your goyish neighbors, you are still doing something wrong- even if there is some basis. Because of your motivation.
The motivation here is to not accept the roles that chazal and the torah define for men and women.
This is when we could use a female mod. You see, such a comment may seem fine to you, and even a good way to get your point across, but it can be quite hurtful to postsemgirl. You easily could have made your point without saying that. I know, I’m probably being very annoying about this, and I’m sorry.
See, this is why we need real male mods instead of the pansies we have.
This comment may seem fine to middlepath, but is expressly aimed at emasculating the CR readership. He could have easily made his point by just disagreeing, without getting involved in all these stupid feminine feelings. I don’t need your apologies, and you aren’t getting any from me.
Sure she is. Some other boy who is holding her, and a bunch of other girls, hostage on their list.
What do you mean “hostage”? Aren’t you misusing the word “hostage”?
RSRH:
If I understand correctly, your point is that we should engage them in halachic debate and prove them wrong, instead of just calling them what they are.
Now, firstly I disagree with that. I think that engaging them in debate legitimizes them. The same way we don’t debate the church, or the talmud professors in the universities, or the conservative, we shouldn’t be debating these kookoos either. (Referring to YCT, and co.)
But secondly, I happen to disagree with you about how we have been acting towards them. For the most part, chareidi judaism has been ignoring them, and considering them a non-entity, and something of a joke. Which I happen to think is the best reaction.
The only place you see this discussed is on the internet, and mostly by right wing MO.
I once asked a boy who I was dating why he opened the door for me and his answer was, “That was what I was told to do and that is what everyone does.” So I said oh otherwise you wouldn’t have and said no. I was really shocked. I said so you live your life and do things just because you were told to and because everyone else does it. He couldn’t answer me. I didn’t date him after that.
Well, I wish you good luck with this fight.
I would have said the same thing, and would have been glad to be dropped by you.
And all my friends also would have said the same thing. There is something to be said for following social norms.
Hmmmm. . . there was no mesorah for chassidus, was there. All those changes to nusach, shechina, glatt, mysticism, rebbes, new rituals, ect, ect, ect. It was a movement to change the way Judaism was practiced because many of the masses had emotional/spiritual needs that were not being met by what was then the “traditional” way. The traditionalists fought against it and even called its proponents kofrim and reformists. In the end, the criticism tempered the changes, the positive impact of the changes tempered the critics, and both sides recognized that they could both exist within the bounds of halacha.
Sound familiar?
. . . and the wheel, it keeps on a turnin’.
And sometimes the opposite happens. Conservative started as an ostensibly halachic movement also. And after some time everyone saw what it is.
So what do you think makes some movements be accepted, and some movements just go further and further until they are totally cut off?
My son’s high school takes the middle ground. They have school on about half of the Sundays in the school year.
Well, my son’s middle school takes the high ground. They have school on all the sundays half the year.
cinderalla: I do not think I ascribe to your notions of fact and opinion.
“Well, that depends on what they hold, doesn’t it? “
Maybe, but not in this case. oomis is right.
You mean you are saying that you know what they hold. Ok, maybe that is your opinion based on your information then.
I happen to have no information in this case, which is why I didn’t post anything.
Furthermore, if you don’t show remorse at trial, expect to get the maximum sentence.
Maybe you can expect that. But it makes absolutely no sense.
There are states with “three strikes, you’re out” laws where you can get life in prison for shoplifting a third time. That makes no sense, and we would expect the judge to figure that out and give 2 months, even if the shoplifter shows no remorse, and says he is innocent.
(Of course, if he says he will do it again, maybe I’d support a full 6 months in prison or so.)
Ok, so the question on the floor is:
Is it lashon hara to for two people who see someone do something together, to then speak to each other derogatorily about it?
I will try to pull out the ol’ sefer chofetz chaim over shabbos, and get back to you.
While I do not personally subscribe to their particular hashkafa, to malign them on a public forum is despicable. HELLENISM???? Seriously?????
Well, that depends on what they hold, doesn’t it?
sam4 & popa: if I drove a motorcycle around my block on shabbosim, would you be surprised or have a taina if one neighbor told another how bad that is?
Huh? Yes, I would. That is called lashon hara, and no amount of self righteous indignation is going to change that.
Would you be upset at them as much you are with the lady at the op’s chasuna?
Yes.
And should I be given tochacha for giving in to my yetzer hora to drive on shabbosim?
Yes.
How is the op’s case different than my hypothetical?
Because, she wasn’t given tochacha. Someone just told lashon hara about her.
If she had been given tochacha, it would probably have been done wrongly anyway, and we’d be having that discussion.
I agree with mdd. What if my yetzer hora was to drive a motorcycle around my block on shabbosim? Would you say don’t say anything, don’t talk about it, or don’t give tochacha?
As has been stated a million times on this thread, that makes no sense. The woman in this story didn’t give tochacha, she told lashon hara.
If someone has a yetzer hara to say lashon hara, you should give them tochacha if they say it.
Well, I wouldn’t conclude it isn’t bashert on account of some shadchans opinion.
This sounds bizarre.
I would advise your nephew to call her up and tell her he is getting a different shadchan to arrange it. Then, he should ask her outright if she knows anything she thinks he should know. He should tell her it is his decision, and he is going forward unless she gives him the information and he decides not to.
The monkey in the wrench here, though, is why you are so involved on behalf of your nephew. Something seems odd.
My brother was once looking into a shidduch, and my aunt told him not to. Then, she refused to tell him why, and insisted he not go out with that girl. My brother said, “it is my decision, I cannot let you make it for me.” So she told him. And he didn’t go out with her.
choco: I don’t know how accurate it is, but it is pretty clear that she is getting a sour taste about the chumros of her community, which probably means that her parents aren’t doing a very good job communicating it.
popa: Is that wearing pants without a skirt you’re talking about? Why would that be muttar?
I don’t know. But I heard it is, from a reliable source.
I live in Gateshead and that is not just the only pathetic rule. The girls cant walk on some streets where yeshivos are, the street connecting my sisters school to my house has a yeshiva on so my sister has to walk all around the block an extra 15 mins just to get to school coz of this pathetic rule.
Wow. Someone’s parents should be paying more attention to someone’s feelings and less attention to enforcing chumros.
werent you going to be working on your CR addiction?
No, someone else is supposed to be.
skiaddict:
I am also sorry you have friends who are acquainted with such jerks. And if I run over you while snowboarding, I won’t make snide comments about your wearing ski pants. (I’ve heard it is totally muttar, but unwise since nobody will marry you.)
On that topic, I was once snowboarding at Hunter, and when we were leaving, we saw a frum girl wearing a skirt in the parking lot. We were wearing helmets, (and carrying skis and snowboards, and not wearing glasses, and wearing real ski clothing) so we weren’t recognizable necessarily as frum. So my friend says, “hey, how do you ski in that skirt,” knowing that she hadn’t, since we hadn’t seen anyone in a skirt.
She wasn’t happy at us.
Rabbi Falk discusses the length of the schach covering the sukkah, with relevance to the amount a woman must cover her head in his sefer oz lehadar levusha.
Maybe its only the threads I’m reading, but you seem a little to involved in tznius issues. I don’t even know why you would have ever read the book, unless you are a woman or paskening for women.
Raphael Kaufman: 1. What the woman said was not tochacha, it was pure lashon harah. Not only that, but the “friend” was over rechilus for repeating the lashon harah.
Yes, exactly the point here. I don’t know what the rest of you are talking about.
Why is it so difficult to dress Tniyusdik??
I don’t know. I’m not a woman. But it apparently is very hard.
popa people take drugs and alcohol for reasons to intermix with genders (main reason)-don’t fool yourself, i have proofs from the talmud.
Like chocopatience so eloquently said, you are not making any sense.
That was precisely my point. That they go there specifically to socialize with the other gender (and worse), and that having separate boys and girls times is irrelevant to this discussion.
I love having someone to be angry at when something bad happens. That is why NASI is so great.
Thanks NASI!
Alcoholism is an addiction. Think of smoking. If someone does it recreationally, they’re teaching their bodies to get used to the nicotine and may have to fight wanting more. So too with drinking.
Momommia: Yes, alcoholism is an addiction. However, it is very different from smoking. Nicotine causes a chemical addiction, while alcohol does not, as I am aware.
In any event, your definition seems pretty correct. But, I drink a beer or two almost every day, and I think it is fine.
I know two.
One of them was in yeshiva with me for many years before joining NYPD.
I think they have a frum chaplain also, you should contact him.
dunno:
Ok, before you thought that it was ok as long as marriage might come out of it.
Now you are saying it is ok as long as halacha is kept.
Now, I agree that we need to keep halacha. But, there are many things which are ok according to the letter of halacha, but we don’t do anyway as a chumrah. I don’t see why you’d limit yourself here to saying anything is ok as long as it is not contrary to halacha.
The halacha is that a man may not get any ???? from a woman who is not his wife. Not from looking, speaking, thinking, or otherwise. I think that about covers anything we are talking about.
Because while I am sure you have a charming personality, the boys in geulah are not hanging out with the girls for that reason.
And you are correct that our parents were not as machmir on this. They should have been. I don’t know how anyone can possibly argue that there is no harm in the socializing that goes on. If you read the article from yesterday in the YU Beacon which was removed, you know exactly what I’m talking about.
Tonight, I made wraps. I put inside fresh baby spinach, diced turkey breast (store bought), pickles, and low fat raspberry walnut vinaigrette.
Then, most impressively, I spelled vinaigrette correctly without spellcheck. It was lucky.
this is why Rabbi Falk said the seperate bochurim and sem girl times in Gateshead should be introduced everywhere
No. This is not why. The guys and girls in machaneh yehuda are not accidentally running into each other. They are going there specifically to socialize with each other over alcohol (and sometimes illegal drugs).
That is like saying that the purpose of outlawing handguns is to prevent Iran from nuking us.
dunno:
Well, at the very least, you can agree that according to my standard, what happens in geulah is not ok, and while I don’t know if I’d impose what Gateshead does, I can certainly understand it.
In any event, why don’t you tell me a bit more about your standard. You think it is ok if “there’s a chance of a shidduch coming about.”
So, it seems you agree it is inherently wrong, but you see an exception if a shidduch may come about, much as I see an exception for dating.
How far are you willing to take that? Is it ok for 15 year olds to have a relationship because they might get married in 6 years? So exactly when does it become ok? Do you think many of the guys we are talking about are even remotely thinking about getting married?
Also, you make me curious whether you intend to cut off all ties with your guy friends after you get married. (I don’t remember whether you are married, or if you told us. Sorry.)
The only people I know who do drink during the week do have a drinking problem.
Wow. I know lots of people who drink during the week. And I don’t know anyone who has a drinking problem (anyone at all).
Maybe we hang out in different crowds, or maybe we define drinking problem differently.
I define it as having an addiction, which is a technical term used by psychologists, and I think refers to a certain type of dependency which is caused by emotional or chemical needs.
having honestly never been to geordieland, i was thinking to meeself they should just ban the boys altogether. They should be learning not shoppin.
I also think after a hardly any thought that Tesco carPark and Darlington should also be banned altogether or at least seperate flushing times.
Was this google translated?
oomis1105: What I didn’t write was that it was a shalom zachor!
lol! Twins?
it sound like the situation in Geulah on erev shabbos? I never saw anything inappropriate happen there.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
You never saw anything inappropriate in Geulah? Must not have been the same Geulah I went to.