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See how dumb we are. Old man says they are the same yeshiva. hee hee. At least I was actually talking about the correct one, though.
Old man: Of course it makes a difference what the hashkafa of the yeshiva is. I don’t know why you would say not.
Sam2:
I’ll quote from Michael Broyde, who is certainly Modern Orthodox. This is from an essay that was published on Cross Currents a couple months ago:
I cut out the link, but it said:
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
and I attributed it.
And they are entitled to make decisions themselves.
True. But it’s the parent’s money.
Yes, and the parents are entitled to make their own decisions with their money. So they can tell the kid they will only pay for certain yeshivos or colleges.
There was a guy in Israel once who has a son who had gone OTD. This son asked him for a car. The father apparently could afford the car, but told the son he would buy it only if the son promised to not drive that car on shabbos. The son said no deal.
The father consulted with Rav Shach. Rav Shach told him to the buy the car- no strings attached. If you still have a relationship, you can hopefully still influence your kid for good.
Try telling your kid you will only pay for certain yeshivos. See what it does for your relationship.
Centrist orthodoxy is far different than Modox. I doubt Rav Aharon would call himself “Modern”
There is not such thing as “centrist orthodoxy.”
Modern Orthodoxy refers to the hashkafa of Yeshiva University (sometimes called “torah umadda”). To my understanding it is mainly distinguishable from other orthodoxy in its acceptance of secular knowledge as a proper goal in itself, and in its willingness to look to the secular world and integrate the good of the “greeks” into the torah.
For further readings, see Torah Umadda by Norman Lamm; Leaves of Faith by Rav Aharon Lichtenstien (rosh yeshiva of Gush, and son in law of Rav JB Soloveitchik).
Its important that teens get guidance from their parents and make decisions together.
Interesting. I think that since we are referring to adults, we should call them that, not teens. Even if their age technically ends with “teen.”
And they are entitled to make decisions themselves. Of course, they can ask for help.
And if I felt the school they wanted was wrong for them, I would not let them go.
That is not even making decisions together. That is pretending to.
Try doing that to your wife. You’ll end up just as divorced as your kid who you make decisions for will end up OTD.
If it is a hesder yeshiva, it isn’t Modox…
Gush definitely is Modern Orthodox. The rosh yeshiva is Rav Lichtenstien, who is definitely Modern Orthodox.
Do you feel it is appropriate?
Do we feel what is appropriate? Being Modern Orthodox?
My great great great grandfather fought for the confederacy in the Civil War. He had a guy in his company who thought just like you guys.
He thought it was stupid that grey meant confederacy. After all, what really counts is which side you are fighting for, not what color your jacket is. So he decided one day to wear blue (he pulled it off a dead union soldier).
He was shot by his own side within 1 minute of leaving his tent.
student: I don’t doubt there are controlling parents who will threaten their adult kids with all sorts of stuff in order to control them.
I wasn’t debating whether you exist, I was just calling you a bad parent.
would you let your kid go there?
Both these institutions are for post-high school students. If you are still thinking of where you will “let your kid go,” I expect your kid will be OTD within a couple years, if not already.
Get a grip. It is not up to you anymore. Your kid decides where to go to yeshiva, if he decides on yeshiva at all.
(Gush is a very well regarded yeshiva in the MO community.)
Ok, so this is a perfect example of ???? ????? ?? ????. The point of the thread was whether schools can in good faith exclude children of parents who do not conform to its standards of chumrah, but the first few poster took it too far, and applied it to halacha as well. So we spend 70 posts arguing what the halacha is. hee hee hee.
So, back to the substantive issue.
What do you all think about a school which excludes children of parents who either
A. Don’t keep the community’s level of chumrah (ex. maybe a mainstream Lakewood school refusing a child whose mother wears bright colors.)
B. Don’t keep some actual halacha. (ex. shabbos. Or doesn’t cover her hair).
Let’s assume the reason is, that they are afraid the kids will influence their kids negatively.
So, I assume it is possible that the kids will influence the kids. Then, the question is the balance of what the chances are of bad influence, versus the damage to the excluded kids.
I’m a little hesitant to say the school isn’t usually justified, since the only places this happens are in areas that have other schools which are more appropriate for the other kids anyway.
Not having a design on your boot is NOT halacha Popa,
Talk about a straw man. I specifically referred to covering hair and arms and legs.
mishpacha?
Thirty years from now, when new chumras that I can’t even imagine will be the new norm; someone will write in the coffee room of 2041 about our time;
“Inasumuch as they didn’t keep halacha- yes, they were less frum.”
One thing you can not fault Judaism for, is that we always spell out precisely what is d’oraisah, d’rabbanan, and chumrah. These halachos are spelled out precisely in the poskim.
I disagree with my brother here. I think staying at home is usually better, if the in town school is appropriate, and the parents are good parents.
This leads to good results.
See, when the in town school is not appropriate, then all parents send out of town.
When the in town school is appropriate, then only the bad parents send out of town, which is good.
Always:
I think that this is something that should be happening between frum couples, and you are correct to desire it. The only difference is that we don’t do so publicly. You should speak to your rebbetzin about this.
For example, the kior was built out of mirrors that the women in mitzraim used to beautify themselves for their husbands. Hashem told Moshe to accept the mirrors and build the kior out of this. This was appropriate since the kior brought sholom bayis, by showing when a sotah was not guilty. See rashi shemos 38:8.
zahavasdad:
Why did you send zahava to a school which you so disagree with?
Did zahava like it? If so, I commend you for putting her needs before yours. But, I still don’t understand why you are criticizing, if that is what zahava wanted.
I wholeheartedly disagree with you! I think that these women of the fifties and sixties were very frum, despite the fact that they did not have all of the chumros that we have today!
That’s nice. But the examples you gave were actual halacha.
Uh. Inasumuch as they didn’t keep halacha- yes, they were less frum.
But is that a valid reason to deny their daughters a jewish education?
I wasn’t speaking to that point.
But, since you raise it. Let’s discuss it.
If you want to, you will first need to acknowledge the reasons the people who do this are raising. You can’t ask as if anybody thinks that having a parent who doesn’t keep halacha is a positive reason to not give a child a jewish education. Once you acknowledge what is actually happening, then we can discuss its merits.
Thirty years ago, a woman could consider herself a refined Torah observant woman if she wore a hat or scarf, and wig wearers were rare. Her elbows and knees showed in those pictures of the sixties which today would be considered unacceptable. Yet these women sent their children to be educated in bais yaakovs and their daughters were welcomed. Today, a woman who does not cover her hair, elbows and knees will not have her daughters accepted at a Bais Yaakov. Were those mothers of the past less frum? Less refined?
Uh. Inasumuch as they didn’t keep halacha- yes, they were less frum.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. You are arguing that we shouldn’t keep halacha.
the 8 year old girl was not dressed appropriately?
No, they are just kookoo. You don’t spit at 8 year olds, even if they’re dressed like the pope.
Bar Shattya- You and pba are waaayyy to obsessed with skinny girls. I think it would be pretty funny if you marry a skinny girl and she gets fat after her first baby
Agree with Bar shattya. That is not funny. As much as it wouldn’t be funny if you bought a car and crashed it and died.
Sam4: They say that Rav Elyashiv told Rav Schachter that he would wear Techeiles but if he did that many of his followers who can’t even afford food as it is would spend far too much money on buying Techeiles.
That makes no sense.
Leave the whole old one in, you are saying?
So, we have the doctors at the Mayo clinic telling us that we should hire doctors and pay them money.
Sounds like a self dealing transaction to me.
Occupy Mayo Clinic!
Cool.
My rebbeim still say to not wear it. So, ?? ??? ?? ??? ????
Sam: Did the rashba not wear tzitzis?
Also, didn’t we lose the tcheiles like a really long time ago, and we’ve been wearing tzitzis the whole time?
Also, wouldn’t that mean that he would still hold it is assur unless we were sure that this stuff was really tcheiles?
Ah. I see. ?? ????? ????
I wear tzitzis without tcheiles, because that is what my rebbeim say to do.
All the rest is commentary.
Sam: what is bal tigrah?
The guy is nuts, and should be put in jail.
Nobody says it is muttar, he is just nuts.
I agree. And I am calling him out. This is not Judaism.