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Actually popa_bar_abba, what you say is partially incorrect. Many girls are not as fickle as you think
Agreed. I am generalizing. Which is ok when you are talking generally.
it sounds to me like you’re a bit bitter about something in this topic.
If you have a good point to make, we’ll consider it even if you don’t make the argument personal. (Not to mention, that if I was bitter about this, then I assume you mean you think I am having a hard time getting married because of this. So it is real nice of you to say that. Real classy.)
(Notice how much better I am at making arguments personal. I’ll give you all lessons if you want.)
Yeah, how could there be a bas kol by conception, if the gemara also says that the gender can change until sometime in the middle I forget when?
The next words in the mishna are “sheyigias shnayhem” – “throught toil at both of them.” It seems like it’s referring to some sort of exertion. Which seems to imply an understanding similar to that of Abelleh.
brilliant exposition. Again, maybe you should find a rishon who says that, since I cited at least one who disagrees with that approach.
By the way, I’m familiar with the interpetation of “derech eretz” as “proper manners.” I was under the impression that that was a minority opinion among the commentators. (I guess I can look into that.)
So then you made two mistakes. First, trying to read a mishna instead of relying on your rebbeim. Second, assuming that we always follow the majority opinion in rishonim.
Follow-up question: According to those who interpret “derech eretz” as “proper manners,” it’s kind of hard to oppose the study of mussar, isn’t it?
No, it is completely irrelevant. Those who opposed the mussar movement didn’t do so because they thought you are supposed to have bad middos. (why did you translate it as manners? manners is which fork you use and not putting your elbows on the table. middos are the way we act and how we think and feel….)
I am not joking. I don’t get it.
I have a “diffent” question about this.
How is it possible that a bas kol announces 40 days before but AZ says that not every girl has a guy?
Is it possible that a girl loses out because all the guys in the world are marrying younger girls? Do you mean to think that every marriage that happens today is the wrong one except for the ones where they are the same age and they get a “hechsher tzedek” from NASI?
The term “derech eretz” doesn’t mean getting paid; it means working. By being self-supporting, you improve you person which is a fundamental part of Torah growth.
That is an interesting idea. There may even be a rishon who says it. But you should find that rishon before you argue with the other rishonim that have been quoted here.
Now, I’m confused. Are you telling me that, there is a shortage of girls who would be willing to consider a working boy? And that only boys that tout the party line will get calls?
Yes. Boys who are not learning will not be able to get the frummer girls. If a boy is not planning on learning, he will not be able to date as frum girls. There have been threads about this.
Oomis: Your point is that it is not the girls fault- it is how they are taught. Agreed. I was responding to the notion that the pressure was coming from the boys. I was saying that the pressure really comes just as much from the girls. Of course, it is neither’s fault- it is how both are taught.
But, the girls are more at fault, since the girls are much more shallow about it. For example, it is well known that a girl who is looking for 3-5 years of learning will date a 22 year old who is planning on 3-5 years, but will not date a 25 year old who is planning on 0-2 years- even though both will end up having learnt until 25-27. (and in fact, the older boy has already learned those years, so they are guaranteed.)
Once boys know what is expected of them, they will look for ways to achieve it. If the “admission ticket” to the dating arena means you need to be employable, you can be sure the boys will figure out a way to get in the game.
Yeah um. I know lots of guys who have to say they want to learn, because otherwise the girls won’t date them. The ticket to having the girls line up is to say you are learning. It’s the girls who are driving this thing.
Awesome!
It is impossible to swallow with your nose closed.
Just thinking: there is no way I would let a shadchan make that kind of cash off me. I would insist before going out with anyone on the list that I get a very large cut of that money.
Look how brilliant I am.
Shadchan: go out with shprintzy.
Popa: ok. Is she on the list?
shadchan: not telling.
popa: ok, then I’ll go ask a different shadchan
shadchan: she’s on the list.
popa: If we get engaged, I want the money. all of it.
shadchan: no.
popa: ok, forget it. I’ll go out with my chavrusah’s niece.
shadchan: that’s retarded, if you want to go out with this one, you should
popa: you’re a retard; I don’t care which one i go out with.
shadchan: how about you get 90%? That’s a lot of money.
popa: 92% and we’ve got a deal.
shadchan and popa draw up a contract, and drink a l’chaim. Shadchan got more money than otherwise, and popa got a free drink.
feif: yes, that is a good point. I was more thinking about the Israel (european) style welfare state with no requirements to skirt.
poppa: I went to yeshiva and then to college. I currently work full time. When am I mekayem Torah? I go to a shiur a few nights per week. When mincha is late enough so I can daven after I get home from work, there is a shiur between mincha and maariv every evening. I learn a sefer on the Parshah every week so that on Shabbos I’ll have what to say over at the table. That’s just the learning part.
I also like to think that for the most part, I live a Torah life. I try to make a kiddush Hashem at work every day. There are some people I work with who, to put it mildly, are slightly uncouth. I try to be the opposite, and be a good example of how a proper person should act.
I think this is what RABBI Lamm means.
Feif: I didn’t mean to denigrate people who work for a living, and try to live as torah jews. In fact, I am also no longer in yeshiva (obviously, considering the hours I spend online).
I was responding in kind to the OP. OP seems to think that we should live our lives based on what we read in pirkei avos- I think we should live our lives based on what our rebbeim say. So, ??? ???? ???????, I responded to OP that his lifestyle was also not like his reading of the mishna. Then I bickered with AviK because I like to.
Absolutely. I’m happy to.
The mishna which states ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? is read in different ways. It refers to either working to earn a living, or to having good midos. I’ll quote the meiri whom I just found by searching bar ilan:
??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???”? ???? ????? ??????
??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???
(There are two interesting points to note in this meiri.
First, the reason he says that work is necessary is that this way you will not need to steal for food- this implies it may not be as necessary if there is a welfare system which will feed you.
Second, the reason he says that middos avoid aveiros is that the people you give tochacha to will respect you, and will not dig up your aveiros, so they will be “hidden.”)
The phrase “??? ??? ???? ?????,” is a paraphrase from ????? ??? ?:
?”? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?”? ?? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ?????? ?”? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?”? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?”? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?”? ??? ?????? ??? ?”? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? (????? ??) ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ?”? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??”? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??”? (?????? ?) ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???”? ?? ????? ?? ????, ????? ???? ????? ?”? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ??????? ?? ???”? ?????? ?? ????? (????? ?) ???? ??????? ???.
As you can see, it is clearly talking about having good middos.
The OP assumed the reading of the mishna in avos was that it referred to working. If it does, then the medrash of kodmoh l’torah which refers to having good middos is not related at all.
Move to be struck for promoting intermarriage.
I’m pretty sure I saw somewhere online a theory that they are jewish.
edit: yes, google kate middleton jewish.
I have taken a poison pill two times a day and have seen successful weight loss. I am interested to know if anyone elso has taken this from an illegal drug dealer in brooklyn sold for about $250 a bottle plus a slight chance of prison. no side affects which I know about yet, other than abnormal loss of a third of my body weight and i am down 60 lbs in 5 months. this is with a daily exercise routine and healthy eating as well but it definitely will kill me faster than just dieting the regular way.
I corrected that for you.
Some think I am one. ??? ??? ????? ???”?
Its really Pippa? Isn’t that the princess’s sister? I think I’d date her, why don’t you email me a resume and I’ll think about it.
Are they real of fake? What does real mean?
Will they make you lose weight quickly? Probably.
Are they really bad for you, and only a temporary fix? Yes.
Are they illegal? Probably. That’s why they cost 170 a bottle and are sold by “a man in NY” instead of in Walgreens for a 20 dollar copay and showing your insurance card.
sam4321: Whichever way you want to learn it, Torah is definitely more important(Avos 6:5,Berachos 35).
AviK: Sam, on the contrary derech eretz kadma laTora.
Avi, I will teach you something interesting. Sometimes, the same words can mean something different! Imagine that!
Google it if you don’t believe me.
I don’t think the law is called Popa, but I guess I can’t say for sure.
This reminded me of this:
I mentioned to a friend of mine recently that I had borrowed Lamm’s Torah Umadda from the library and was reading it. He asked me why I hadn’t just borrowed his copy. He told me he of course has a copy- he is Modern Orthodox.
This friend went to Gush for a year, and then went to University of Pennsylvania.
So I was wondering: He was m’kayeim the “madda,” but what happened to the “torah”? Doesn’t the book say you need torah and madda both? Doesn’t Lamm’s Modern Orthodoxy call for both?
Why are you asking how they read the mishna? How do you read the mishna? Do you think yafeh torah im derech eretz means to work 50 hours a week and learn 5?
Palin or bust.
The proper way to chazer, is to get down and dirty in the material. Like chazers do. You can’t just read quickly through it and rely on how you understood it last time; you need to get into it again.
I want you to all pay attention to the way I continue to make my joke even though everybody is ignoring it. Like Dovid Hamelech said, ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ????.
Troll…
Yes, probably.
We’re going to need a little more detail than that.
1. Why did you originally want to marry a learning boy? A man can be an oved Hashem even if his tachlis is not to be learning. Why did you specifically think that you wanted to marry someone whose tachlis happened to be learning?
2. Why does it bother you that you no longer want that? If it was making you unhappy to think that you would live the life of a kollel family, maybe it isn’t for you? That is ok- you can also be an ovedes Hashem even if your tachlis is to be the wife of an oved Hashem who does not learn all day.
3. You say you are losing your chashivus hatorah. What does that mean to you? What did it used to mean to you? To me, chashivus hatorah doesn’t really have anything to do with whether you are someone who will be happy learning all day, or married to someone like that. I suppose if you don’t value torah, then you certainly wouldn’t want to, but even if you value torah, it might just not be for you.
It is important when you chazer to learn something new in the material each time- not to just chew the exact same thing all over again. Like a chazer that doesn’t chew its cud.
GAW:
Just tell me this: Do you think the intent of the picture was to insinuate that president obama is an anti semite?
PBA: Does your Rosh Yeshiva have any ideas as per how to solve the numbers problem?
Not that he told us. He certainly did not encourage us to date younger because of it.
GAW: Before and after reading the article, did you think that was what they meant?
Artchill: If that is what was conveyed by the magazine, then I agree.
But, what did the article say? Was the article about anti-semitism in the white house? In the Obama administration? Or in New Jersey.
Well, for what it’s worth:
My rosh yeshiva was concerned about the numbers crisis.
He also felt that we were getting married at about the correct age, and didn’t want us to date younger- he was concerned about the divorce crisis.
I never once heard him say he was happy there was a shidduch crisis because it helped our bargaining position for money.
I just googled it and saw it.
Can someone please present the argument against it?
In the wake of stories like this; http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/114893/A-Firebombing-In-The-Night%3A-A-Visit-To-Rutherford%2C-NJ.html ; I’m not sure the cover is so false.
We are the Jews; we are the ones who can invoke the holocaust. This was not about the right to spit on girls, this was about anti-semitism.
You people seem pretty convinced though: convince me.
I communicate only via YWN.
It is yet another reason why (IMHO, Lulei D’Mistafina) I believe some of the “Roshei Yeshiva” are happy with the causes of the crisis (even if they wish there was no crisis itself).
What do you mean happy with the “causes of” the crisis? What causes?
Do you mean they are generally happy with the ages that guys and girls start to date and think it is a good an appropriate age to start dating? Well, I should hope so.
They did have cast iron pans, though.
In Europe, yeshivos didn’t have telephones.
I’m proposing a mass CR call-in to GOQ’s yeshiva. We’ll all ask for someone, then not grumble when he says they aren’t available.
And we’ll also prank call and say funny things.
Since we don’t know which yeshiva, we’ll just call all of them. Everybody call the yeshivos whose name starts with the same letter as your username. I’ll call Yeshivas Poretz Geder.
You’re ruining your idol by using it to fuel your fire.
No, that is how I serve it.
I tell my secretary to always tell callers I am not in, and then if they act annoyed, to send them through. This way, I know I will only get the callers who really want to speak to me.
Let’s talk about being fat and smoking again. That is always more interesting.
Why does everyone always think that being fat is “externals.” Fat is always inside you, not outside you. It is actually part of you.
Middos are external. Middos is the actions you do–they are not actually part of you.
I think we should care more about things that are part of you, than individual actions or transient feelings. That is what I will teach my sons. And daughters. (And to run around in shul: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-im-going-to-let-my-kids-run-around-in-shul)
I repeat— if a tune is being outright copied, isn’t there a copyright issue?
Are you asking or saying?
yitayningwut:
I thought of that (not the gemara, but YD 10:1 which codifies it), and I’m not sure it is apposite. The reason it is muttar for shechita is because shechita is mekalkel.
Is what I am doing mekalkel? Maybe, I am ruining the seasoning. But I’m not sure about that.
The yeshivos have Home-Ec also. We called it Sholom Bayis Class.
I learned in yeshiva how to make barbecues;
how to do chazara on shabbos so that you can put the cholent back on friday night after you eat some;
how to order pizza;
and how to drink until you don’t mind some shrill voice yelling at you to get a job or get the baby, or whatever its yelling.
Which one? Because people say that about different ones. Also, we did this like a week ago.