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anyone heard of the 54 bus in gateshead?
if gateshead doesn’t need separate gender busses no one else should!
Yes, but you are being very unclear.
If your point is that therefore you think it is an unnecessary chumrah–that may be a good point, but it is pretty irrelevant, since they do think it is necessary. (Also, is that bus a public British bus? Maybe they can’t get England to agree to it?)
If your point is that therefore they must really be intending to degrade women, that conclusion is pretty unsupported by the fact that some bus in some English community doesn’t have separate seating.
Since its a Chumra only observed by some, Others think its a despicable “custom”
Yes, but you are being unclear.
Nobody (should) think
that it is a despicable custom in itself. What you mean is that some people don’t believe it is being done for religious reasons, and instead think it is being done to degrade women.For obvious reasons, that is an absurd accusation.
Since you said its not Halacha, there is no need for those who dont follow this chumra need to belive it in
Certainly. I personally don’t know that I would only take a separate seating bus, even if it was available. I would probably just take the first one that came.
Why should those who think its disgusting observe it?
They shouldn’t. They should, however, have enough respect for their fellow people to allow them to do their customs within their own domains.
There is plenty of reason for non-religious to go to Meir Sharim. The neighborhood has sort of cache of a place from another time, sort of a living museum.
Lots of tourists want to see it
Please tell me you did not just say that. You view people who are trying to live their lives by themselves as a “museum” which you go to watch and gawk at?
That is so disgusting I just don’t know what to say.
Just tell us what posek says back of the bus is the Halacha, What Sefer says you must have women at the back of the bus and i dont mean YOUR INTERPRATATION of the Halacha, I mean a direct halacha .
If you are going to defened this practice please tell us where you got it from.
No halacha. I never claimed there was, nor have I seen anyone claiming there was.
It is a chumrah. Much like any chumrah people do.
But, there is a halacha that a man is not allowed to derive any sexual pleasure from a woman he is prohibited to, whether by looking, touching, thinking, or otherwise. Why don’t you tell me that you even try to keep that halacha.
Notably, on multiple websites, I have come across not one person who attempts to keep that halacha, who does not understand why separate seating is a good idea. Why don’t you be the first?
My understanding is that the buses are replacing other buses that would otherwise not be Gender specific. There were non Mehadrin bus lines (and still are) that go to these city pairs. If the mehadrin bus is the next one leaving, why should anyone be forced to wait?
Yes, but the people who use those bus lines overwhelmingly want it.
I don’t get why you think that it is not worth inconveniencing a couple of people a little bit, for something that a lot of people want.
Besides, it isn’t all that bad to ride a separate bus even if you would otherwise sit not separate. Try it; the seats are the same, it goes the same speed, it costs the same amount.
What about simply doing what Monsey Trails does and having men on one side of the aisle and women on the other side of the aisle. Very easy, there’s no concept of ‘moving back’ in a negative way, etc.
It is harder to do that on a city bus with people always getting on and off.
Also, the concept of “moving back” is part of the American experience, and does not have any inherently negative connotation in Israel.
The difference here, on a public bus, is that unless there is MORE THAN ONE bus, going the same route as the gender-separated one, to give people the option of sitting as a family or something, or it is obvious and known that this is a gender-separated bus (as this one seems to be), it really can’t be sustainable.
It is that way. And anyway, the neighborhoods are segregated by religious affiliation so a non-chareidi has little reason to go there anyway.
If only Chareidim rode these buses they should be accommodated. But non-Chareidi women ride the buses too.
I think we need to agree on the set of facts which we are working with. Until then, it is a bizarre discussion.
As I am aware, these buses serve chareidi neighborhoods almost exclusively, and there are always other options. The lady who made herself famous a couple weeks ago was doing it b’davka to make a story.
So what makes the Chareidim stronger that their being insulted “Halachically” is more important than the women being insulted?
It really isn’t. And that is why I would never support their forcing it on all other bus lines. Which they haven’t.
Also, I’m not really sure any woman was ever actually insulted except because some moron told her that she should feel insulted. Nobody is trying to insult them; they should very easily understand.
However, I am willing to accept that feeling insulted should still be somewhat respected even when the feeling is illegitimate.
Are we going to start a weight charge to any girl over a certain amount of weight must pay 5,000 to get Shadchnum to bother with them
This is a great idea! Shadchanus should be by the pound!
When you pay a fare on a bus or Subway, the fare you pay does not cover the entire fare (in NYC the Subway Fare covers about 67% of the actual cost of the ride) the government (ie the taxpayers/voters) cover the rest.
So its just just the Charedi fare payer vs the Chilioni fare payer. Its the taxpayers/voters who are subsidizng the cost of the ride.
There are two point I want to make here:
1. Come on, we all know the money is not the issue here. We all know it is an issue of perception of womens inequality, as well as general anti-chareidi sentiment.
2. I don’t see why it should make a difference to taxpayers subsidizing a fare whether the people sit in a way which makes them comfortable. We are talking about separate bus lines which egged agreed to and which only service chareidi neighborhoods.
If the moslems were willing to have egged buses in their neighborhoods, and wanted to have a place to store their prayer mats; would you be opposed to that? If they wanted build minarets on the buses? I wouldn’t mind- live and let live.
The very idea that taxpayers aren’t willing to pay for buses if it is done in a way which accommodates chareidim, is highly bigoted.
Jewish Theological. It even has the word “theology” in its name!
Rabbi Eidlitz told me by email that it is only a problem if it comes off by hand. It doesn’t.
on average women have better driving records than men.
Two points:
1. Explain what you mean by driving records. We should not care about speeding or reckless driving for this purpose; we should only care about accidents caused, which is the bottom line.
2. How do those numbers change when you remove the drunk drivers from the mix?
If you dont want to sit with the opposite gender on the bus or Subway, then Drive your own car or hire your own private bus or convince the existing bus company to make separate lines for you.
You should hire someone to kill him. That should help get you past it.
Is rust a problem for a mikva? How about for a nidda?
So does the fact that it needs to be reseasoned count as being ruined?
How about if I have to sand it down because it is rusting now?
Why would you want to wash out the sweat and tears that you expended in tefilla?
If you do libun gamur wrong you can ruin the temper of the metal.
You should have seen my temper when I picked up the pan while it was still hot. I suppose that was doing libun wrong.
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I think it is important for your kids to see that you are willing to inconvenience yourself and take off from your job for them. I think they should b’davka schedule things during the day to make sure that you have to take off from work.
Ok, the reason they are allowed to put the sticker on your car, is because they passed a law which says that they can.
They are allowed to pass any law they want, as long as it doesn’t conflict with a state or federal law or either constitution. If you think this one does- sue them.
I don’t think this has anything to do with other people’s property. They could pass a law which says that they can sticker cars on your property also- as long as it doesn’t violate state or federal law or either constitution.
Greenfield is trying to repeal the law, as it should be repealed. It is a stupid law.
The reason it is stupid, is that it harms people with no corresponding benefit to someone else. So the harming people is a waste.
If they think the fine is not high enough, they should just raise the fine. Fines are not stupid, since the money you pay is not destroyed- it goes to someone else. So the harm to you has a corresponding benefit, which equals out.
I’d say just take up a collection among your friends. You don’t need to tell them who it is.
Once in yeshiva one of my friends was collecting money for a guy who needed therapy. I gave him 100 buck. I have no idea who the guy is; he wasn’t in my yeshiva. (Or so I was told, though I don’t know that either. It could even be my friend was just collecting to buy himself a new minivan.)
So I made my fire, and burned my pan. The coals under the pan didn’t burn because there wasn’t enough oxygen apparently, but I think the pan is kashered anyway because the fire was really big and really hot and I covered it, and it was still hot the next morning when I came to take the pan out.
The pan is now turned different colors in some places, and the smooth seasoned crust is gone, with just iron left.
And it is rusting. But I don’t want to re-season it yet, since I want to tovel it first.
Which leads to my ??? question: Do you need to tovel a kli that you buy from a goy and do libun gamur to?
I wonder why they would ban this. I’m not aware that it bothers other people. As far as kavod for the beis medrash and learning, many gedolim of past and current generations smoked while learning.
I had such a good response, and all I got was one bite, and they thought I was serious!
Anyway, I agree with yitayningwut.
When I lived in Europe, we didn’t even have buses. That was the way it should be.
You can see clearly that the purpose of technology is always only for pritzus.
Who is the address you are supposed to send the money to?
Why not just make her fly in?
I think the problem is that people who try to quit smoking are being too extreme.
Nobody would tell someone who is fat to stop eating- you tell them to stop eating too much. Moderation- like Michelle Obama says.
It is really like this with all addictions; people tell you to quit completely instead of a healthy balance, and that is why it cannot succeed.
Like with alcoholism; people tell alcoholics to never drink at all. If someone would tell me to never drink at all, I would slash him with a broken beer bottle. Now imagine if I was an alcoholic and you told me to never drink at all–I’d slash him with 2 broken beer bottles and trample him with an overweight horse.
Speaking of which, that is why horses are not overweight. It is because nobody tells the overweight ones to quit eating completely- so they are able to lose weight healthily.
blabla: yes, you are often allowed to say it if someone needs to know. You should ask a rav if you are unsure about the halachos.
The sefer chofetz chaim discusses all these halachos, and it is fairly easy reading.
It has been a month; have you reminded him at all? What did he respond?
If you have been reminding him, and he hasn’t done it, then it is probably time to ask someone else. If you haven’t reminded him, then probably he just forgot.
I have a bumper sticker that says My Kid Is A Talmid Chacham.
My am haaretz kid can make fun of your talmid chochom.
There was a case where Goldman Sachs gave some Ebay executives a chance to buy some stock for a good price, to thank them for bringing them business.
The court said the money they made belonged to Ebay, since Ebay was the one who gave Goldman Sachs business, not the executives of Ebay.
Boys are smarter, and better at making decisions quickly and accurately.
Girls just look around at what everyone else is doing, which doesn’t work well with dating, since everyone else who dated this guy didn’t marry him. Eventually, they realize that everyone else who is dating generally is getting engaged. If the boy is still dating them at this point, then they get engaged.
And your honors kid is also a crybaby after my kid beats him up.
Talk about childish and pathetic!
This is a very strange discussion. I cannot think of any situation where someone was considering sending their kid to a school or camp where there would be sakanas nefashos and it would require instant action, such that you wouldn’t have time to call a rav.
Are we really discussing molesting again, and whether you should ask a rav before going to the police? And the issue isn’t instant action but whether you trust the rav?
Good. It was operated solely for illegal purposes. And they didn’t just unilaterally black it out- they used the proper channels.
BTW: If you watch streaming videos that are being streamed illegally, it is no so pashut that you are doing anything illegal. Because you aren’t reproducing it. I am not a lawyer but I read that there was a federal case which said that you are violating the copyright when it is copied to your computer’s RAM.
So, if you are charged in federal court, YMMV (Your mileage may vary. hee hee)
Can you give me a reason for why i should follow my rebbe against the majority of the rishonim?
Because your rebbe presumably also is aware of the rishonim. We don’t always pasken like a majority of rishonim.
Additionaly I think if you’d ask any Posek or for that matter any person whos learned in yeshiva for a while- whos opinion holds more weight: the Rambam, Rashis, Rabbeinu Yonahs or the 2nd opinion in the Meiri I have no doubt they’ll answer the former
1. Irrelevant. You should just ask them what the hashkafa is in this issue.
2. I didn’t look up the rest of the rishonim. I quoted the meiri because it nicely summed up the machlokes.
If you care to know what most of the rishonim hold, do some research. This maamar is quoted in several places- not only in avos.
Also I am sorry I came off arrogant, I was simply surprised that people when offering opinions on this subject don’t look at the tradtional sources.
Apology accepted.
I don’t think anyone was offering an opinion on this. We were simply noting the machlokes, and relying on our rebbeim as far as psak.
Popa Bar Abba- I dont understand how am I wrong: I quoted the 3 Rishonim- Rashi, Rambam, and Rabbeinu Yonah- at least 2 are probably the most influential Rishonim- as saying to work- then you quote me one of 2 opinions in the Meiri as saying it means middos. I might be missing something but what comes out as the stronger view? 3 of the Gedolei Rishonim or the 2nd opinion in the Meiri?
You missed the part where you condescendingly told us to read the rishonim, while you were completely ignorant yourself.
I have no idea what the majority rishonim opinion on this is- and neither do you. Until you read my post, you didn’t even know there were two opinions.
In any event, nobody cares what the majority opinion is. You should follow your rebbeim even if they pasken against the majority of rishonim.
PBA: What did you do to my reply to Longrekel?
Put it under my pillow and hoped for a quarter?
That’s the main problem right there – the belief that social programs are an entitlement. NO ONE is entitled to anything. Those social programs were instituted as a short term stopgap to help people who were temporarily out of work, unable to get a job, disabled/ill and unable to work, or unable to earn enough to live on, even though they were working. It was not meant as a weekly stipend to pay off the bills and buy the groceries of people who were NOT ready, willing, and able to step up to the plate.
That’s what you say. But, you are not the legislature. And even if that is what the legislature thought, that is not what the people who voted for them think.
The legislature is afraid to cut medicare because the old people will vote them out. They are afraid to cut medicaid because the “poor” people will vote them out. They are afraid to cut corn subsidies because the Iowa people will not caucus for them.
I don’t have to use the interpretation of the law that Oomis uses- I use the interpretation that the people who lobbied for it use. The purpose of food stamps is for me to get free stuff that you produced. If I can.
LMA: Thank you for validating me. Many people don’t believe that such girls exist.
chelsealew: You aren’t being very nice.
Well, someone is getting to sound a bit arrogant, and the funny thing is that he is wrong.
The Rambam clearly defines “Yofeh TT im derech eretz” as getting a Job. Look it up in Peirush HaMishnayos. The Rambam knows wat hes talking about no?
My brother Toi- 2 things: 1. The Rambam is 100% clear in what he says about ‘Derech Eretz’ meaning getting a job as he writes (and please look it up yourlself) “Rotze Lomar Derech Eretz hene HaOsek BiParnasa etc.- CLEAR AS DAY. Its also pretty clear from RASHI that Derech Eretz means Parnasah. Guess who also interpets it like that RABBEINU YONAH- wow! these 3 Gedolei HaRishonim all telling us to work!
sam4321 my previous post is also intended for you as well. Its a very nice Tosafos Yom Tov but look at what the Rishonim say.
Everyone here I humbly suggest when researching a topic like this always turn to the sources, the Rishonim and go from there. Shkoyach on the discussion
One would think that before condescendingly telling us to read the rishonim, you would have at least read the rishonim which were already quoted on this page. You didn’t even need to look up a citation- I quoted it outright.
The meiri is a rishon. The meiri I quoted above says that there is yesh l’faresh that it means working, and yesh l’faresh that it means middos.
I suggest, (with deserved arrogance) that you don’t know nearly enough to “humbly” suggest anything to us.
“Through toil at both of them” seems to be the pashut pshat in the mishna. (Artscroll writes it without citing anyone.)
Also, I realize that those who opposed the Mussar movement did not do so due to an aversion to good midos. Considering “yigias,” if it’s referring to derech eretz, it’s referring to studying derech eretz, no?
Noch amol?
No. We don’t darshen mishnayos by ourselves. Especially when it is a mishna that has numerous rishonim which explain it.
Like I said, you should generalize. We are talking about a large group of people; if we can say things that apply to most of them, we can understand the large scale dynamics.
If you are talking about me, it would make no sense to generalize, since I am only one person. You couldn’t generalize if you tried.
I was merely stating that when people say things like all girls want learning boys and therefore all girls are shallow, it just seems like you are trying to make excuses for yourself
Make excuses for myself? What would I need to excuse?
If you think I was a working guy, then I would be the injured, not the injurer.
If you think I was a learning guy, then I would be neither the injurer nor the injured.
The only way I would need an excuse and my explanation would be the excuse would be if I was the one telling guys that they needed to learn. And then I would be excusing that by saying I needed to say it so that they would get shidduchim.