Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
How the blazes should I know? I’m not a historian! And even when I met one last night, I disagreed with him.
Excellent. Then include all the Toras Moshe Rabbis (such as Rabbi Dr. Meiselman) and their followers (such as Dovid Kornriech) as MO, and their opponents (such as Rabbi Slifkin) as Charaidi 🙂
In the fine middle eastern tradition of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” (Not calling anyone an enemy. Ok, not calling everyone an enemy. Ok, just ignore this parenthetical.)
“Modern Orthodoxy” was the orthodoxy that existed in America in the early 1900’s just by virtue of it’s existence. No one initially defined it.
I’m not aware of anyone who would define Modern Orthodoxy that way. I’m not aware that anyone in the early 1900’s in America believed in any of the philosophy of torah umadda.
I would define it as followers of the Rav.
“..We aren’t very far from each other. We both agree to the basic premise: that parents should support their children while they study torah. We only differ in degree…”
The number of years of support is irrelevant; it’s the values being promoted. One believes is teaching their children independence, self-sufficiency, and the responsibility of caring for others; the other is inuring their children to dependency and being taken care of.
Meheicha teisi? Where did you see in my comments that I don’t believe in teaching children independence, self sufficiency, and the responsibility of caring for others. That is a ridiculous charge to make.
And someone who doesn’t believe in supporting their kids after high school at all, would accuse you of the same thing. People who live in grass houses shouldn’t stow thrones.
There are in Jerusalem a number of places that combine Torah learning with vocational or academic secular studies.
Careful Tahini. Under your plan, those are not options. You are not going to be eligible for federal student loans in many of those places.
We paid for our kids to study in Erez Yisrael post sems and yeshivas full time for two year, expensive but a precious experience for us.
You did? And here I thought you were principled. Turns out, you don’t think it is wrong for a parent to support their child in learning torah, you just think that 2 years is the correct amount. Well, I think 10 years is the correct amount.
We aren’t very far from each other. We both agree to the basic premise: that parents should support their children while they study torah. We only differ in degree.
It seems to me, that there is a huge industry of helping people quit smoking. You wonder if they aren’t spending money to convince you that smoking is bad. I’d like to see some independent research.
A wife’s consent is not enough for a husband to learn in kollel, one must take into account the children. How do you know they are okay living in poverty-like conditions for the sake of Torah? Who said they are okay with their mother working full time and not spending time at home for the sake of Torah?
This is why I am only willing to date girls whose parents promise large amounts of money, even though I am not planning to learn. Even if I am willing to overlook money issues and marry a good bas yisroel who has good middos, I don’t have the permission of my future kids.
We agree, right?
All our kids take out student loans the rates of interest of which are usually quite favourable to the student.
I see. That means they are only able to take the loans because they are also in a college program, which means they could not learn full time for even one year. I am not criticizing (yet); merely making explicit.
Also, the current interest rates on unsubsidized student loans is about 8%. That means it doubles after 9 years (72/8=9). Just making that explicit as well.
Gimmee a break. You just looked up a list of eastern european towns and copied and pasted. Most of those towns never had a Jew besides the “Moshke.”
I ask this: In todays world, is it a problem that people live too long or too short?
Too long. That is why we are bankrupt from supporting people in retirement from 65-85. People go to school until they are 25 or 30, then work for 35-40 years, then retire for 20. You can’t work only half your life- it simply can’t last.
Smoke in gezunter heit.
When my ( yeshivish) eldest son got engaged he was offered financial assistance from his future-in-laws and told them politely no thank you, he will provide for his family. Learnt in kollel and studied for a qualification to support his wife and child.
Yes, and how did he live while he was “learn[ing] in kollel and stud[ying] for a qualification…”?
These are the choices:
A. He or she had significant savings. From where?
B. You supported him.
C. His wife worked.
D. His kollel paid well.
E. He borrowed money.
So, tell us which one it was, and we’ll see if that is possible for everyone.
What, no story about flying 3 headed minyan that is half conservative and half egalitarian, with a mohel on camelback?
I believe with all my heart that a Jewish man has an obligation to learn Torah (if he is capable of same, not all men are) every single day, for some portion thereof. I also believe that if he is getting married, his primary obligation according to the kesubah, is to provide for his wife and family. It is not HER obligation or her parents’ obligation to do so. If and when they do, it is a chessed on their parts. But it is no chessed to force her to work twice as hard as need be in today’s two-income necessity per family, in order for her to pick up the slack her husband is leaving by not doing his fiscal share.
Oomis: We are not working with the same set of facts. In the community I come from, the girls want their husband to learn just as much- if not more than- the husband wants to learn. They routinely will not even consider a shidduch with a guy who does not plan to learn at least 3-5 years after marriage.
I think when you look at the actual facts in our communities, you will agree there is no wrongdoing here.
If you want to criticize, I think you will need to go back a step and maybe criticize the culture which makes the girls want it.
Can someone put together a list of monthly expenses for a couple that requires $3000 a month?
Sure.
Rent- 1500
Health insurance- 700
Groceries- 400
Gas/Electricity- 200
Miscellaneous- 200
Notice they haven’t even bought a toothbrush yet. I guess they could buy it out of miscellaneous, but then how will they buy a new buspass.
zdad: You don’t understand what is meant by daas torah. Sorry.
popa: I’m just trying to attain clarity in this phenomena of ‘older guys’. How else do you attempt to explain this seemingly huge challenge for some great normal older guys to get engaged to one of many [hundreds of]wonderful girls [of all types of personality] who they date with over many years??
How do I explain it? I think it is probably for very different reasons, most of which are probably pretty complex.
Even if he shouldn’t have inherited, he was koneh.
So suppose it is something that doesn’t work it it is gazul. Like a lulav. And suppose he finds out that day. And suppose I’ll figure out a case where you can only do it if it is a chiyuv.
Btw how did you get the new addition
Just noticed it. I dunno, but it makes you all r
s again http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/driving-with-popaPBA: Give me a break. Almost all older single men have only one particular issue which prevents them from getting engaged, and that is them being picky about looks.
Oh, that’s not simplistic at all.
Wait, I made a mistake. Obviously it cannot be mechayev his sister in law in yibbum- that is eishes ach shelo haya b’olamo. So the only question is if it can pattur his father’s wife from yibbum.
So for my sfeik sfeika case, we’ll say this:
Suppose there was a son, but the father and son died in a collapsed building and it is a safek which one was first. And, now there is another safek if there will be another kid conceived later.
Speaking of IVF, if a man has a son who is conceived after the father is already dead, is the son a yoresh? What if the brother did kidushin with the yerusha, is he not married?
Better, does the son conceived after he is already dead pattur his wife from yibbum? Or mechayev his sister in law in yibbum? How long does a widow with no kids or brothers in law have to wait to know that a brother will never be born? What if there is one live brother but she is an ervah to him but there is a tzara so according to beis shammai she is chayav in yibbum and she does chalitza, so now it is a safeik d’oraisah if the they are pattur even if there is another brother, so is it a sfeik sfeika now?
See, isn’t this more interesting than fighting over whether we should believe in daas torah?
Is my most controversial opinion the one that the most people disagree with?
I believe in reverse evolution; that dinosaurs are descended from humans. It makes much more sense than regular evolution.
Regular evolution assumes that randomness and disorder make things better. This is obviously false- everyone knows that order makes things better and that disorder makes mistakes. Just look at your living room after a shabbos meal where you had your siblings and their families over.
Reverse evolution assume that the world started perfect, and then randomness and disorder messes it up. This makes much more sense.
Think about it. If you see a normally formed woman walking with a deformed child- do you have any doubt who the parent is and who the child is?
(This post is my teshuva for my other post in the other thread, where I said I would need teshuva.)
I don’t care what you think. I just try to follow what my rebbeim say to do. And that’s how it is.
I also think you are incorrect, and that nobody (intelligent) thinks that gedolim cannot make mistakes. I certainly don’t think that. I just think that prospectively it will almost always make sense for me to follow them and assume they are not making a mistake.
(Look at that word I know- “prospectively”)
Me. I am my role model. I don’t care what anyone else did or could did. I only care what I do and could do.
(I will need to do some serious trolling to make up for this comment.)
Bare necessities in Israel is no less than $9000 a month. (Yes, that was $, not ??.)(Yes, that was a ??? ??? symbol; just pretend they are superimposed on each other.)
Anyone who will not give that much to their daughter and son in law either hates the Torah, or hates their kids. Probably both.
I have to post again, because I still can’t get over how incredibly shallow your question is.
I’ll grant that there are young men and women who do go out with young women and men, and are perfectly able to marry each other, but don’t anyway.
You think they are being picky. That is an absurd conclusion.
Often, they are unable to get married for psychological and emotional reasons. Maybe they have a hard time forming intimate relationships. Maybe they are scared of commitment. Maybe a million emotional or psychological things.
Why would you fault them for that?
Why would you call them “picky”?
Why would you bizarrely decide it is more of a problem for men than for women?
Suppose they really are just being picky. What does that mean? If you are correct and someone is unable to marry a girl unless she meets some ridiculous checklist, what does that say about them? I would send them to therapy. It sounds like they have some serious perfectionism problem which they are applying to their search for a wife in some way.
But you think that they should just “stop being picky.” Uhuh. I get it.
Here is my suggestion: Post that you take it back, that you apologize to all single people, and that you will never pressure a guy or girl again while they are dating in any way.
I dunno much about JD-MBA’s but I can tell you that getting a JD these days is usually a really really bad idea.
You should ask this on a website for law school or business school applicants. Actually, you should probably ask it on both. If you google something like “law school forum” you should get some hits.
Sam2:
You are on the wrong side of this one.
Firstly, no problems have come of this. The problems have come when rosa parks wannabe’s try to get in the news.
Second, that is not what this battle is about. Nobody but you is talking about precisely how it works or doesn’t in practice. The non frum and the MO are calling us bigots for thinking it is ok or proper to sit separately- everything else is peirush.
Your assessment of the guys as “hard to please” makes you sound like a little kid, who thinks that marriage is about adding up qualities.
Black hair- check
size 4- check
money- check
sense of humor- 80%
etc.
I don’t know how to explain marriage to you, but I’ll just say that I can understand very well why you are having a hard time setting people up now.
As far as the Gedolim Matiring smoking -I doubt they would Matir it nowadays
gedolim have mattired it very recently.
Oh get a life. If you don’t like the smell, stand a few feet away upwind from him.
Should see a therapist. /thread
PBA: I don’t think he thinks they’re evil. He just thinks they’re wrong and by going about being wrong in an improper way are making a Chillul Hashem, which I guess you could call evil.
But as you see from the post above yours, he does think so.
Well, luckily, I don’t really care what he thinks.
I did not say I go to Mear Sharim to gawk of people, I saw PEOPLE go to Mear Shearim to Gawk at people like a Museum.
I’m glad you are retracting it.
I do think its unessary and disgusting (back of the Bus), but I am willing to listen to those who think its proper to give me a HALACHIC argument.
You don’t get it. I don’t want you to agree it is proper. I want you to agree that even if it is not necessary, the people who think it is necessary are not evil.
You should be able to accept that someone else does a chumrah which you think is unnecessary without thinking they are evil!
I will give you this, Studying history is frowned upon in Charedi circles and it very well might be lost what back of the bus means .
However those who have studied history feel very different
Two comments.
1. I don’t know why you would think Israelis would study American history.
2. I can pull my own on history with you. And that’s despite spending most of my life learning torah.
The fact of the matter is I have asked for Proof this is the the halacha and the only answer Ive gotten is
“Its a Chumra”
or
“Hashem Loves this Practice”
Yes, but you are confusing issues.
You are asking now what the source is, because you want to make a halachic argument that it is not necessary.
Earlier you argued that since it is not necessary, the motive must be to degrade women.
However, your disagreement about the necessity does not make the motive degradation.
I’m still responding to you in case anyone else is reading this. I think you are so completely bigoted that there is no chance of convincing you. You have stated that you go to meah shearim to gawk at us as if in a museum. You have stated that separate seating is equal to lynching. This is truly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. ??? ????? ????? ????.
???? ??? ? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ? ????? ??????? ??? ?????
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/a-popa-dvar-torah
And YES I do consider be forced to the back of the bus to be like cursing women and spitting at girls in RMS
Well, I can’t help you with that. You’ll need to find intellectual honesty by yourself.
I am quite amazed that you dont.
The is a reason why back of the bus really riles up people
If you equate sitting in the back of the bus with having stones thrown at you, I don’t think we have anything to talk about.
If there was a Mehitza in the middle of the bus as opposed to the Back of the bus, you would get a VERY different response
That is hogwash. Complete and utter hogwash.
Also note that Israel never had the Jim Crow experience, thus back of the bus has zero connotation in Israel.
As the saying goes, “those who know dont say, and those who say dont know”
Is that how it goes? I thought it was: “Those who don’t know say that all those who know don’t say and those who say don’t know.”
According to that argument, Hashem loves when Charedim throws stones at people, Hashem loves when Charedim curse and spit at girls and women going to school when Charedim visit Iran and Abdijenad and deny the Holocaust
I don’t see how it serves your purposes to equate sitting separately on a bus with throwing stones at people.
I am actually quite amazed that you think they are similar.