popa_bar_abba

I was once on a date at a hotel, and there was a scamway convention there. There were like 5000 scammers and scammed all together in one building.

Once I was on a trip in Israel with some friends from yeshiva, and we went jeeping.

Well, the people who arranged the trip had told the jeeping company when they booked it that we were looking to have fun–not to go touring and look at old stuff. But, that is what the trip was–driving slowly and looking at old stuff. So we were kind of bored and kind of annoyed and had been up all night on a bus from yerushalayim to tzefat.

The driver was speaking to us in Hebrew even though we were obviously all American, so we assumed he didn’t speak much english. So we were making fun of the driver in English, saying some pretty mean things which are NSFYW (Not Safe For Yeshiva World).

And then we felt kind of stupid and guilty when he started speaking to us in perfect English some time later.

But not too guilty–he was driving like a girl and making out trip as boring as he could.

Sam: This is stopping to make any sense. If you are modeh that the Israelis are not allowed to donate, then your argument is only that the goyim are not sending organs to israel because the frum jews all over the world don’t donate.

So again, Your theory is this:

If israel would still not do organ donation, but the couple hundred thousand frum jews in the rest of the world would do organ donation, then the goyim would send organs to israel, even though israel is still not doing it!

Interesting. Would you like to buy a bridge?

Because you feel cold when you have a fever.

Oh, well I dunno nothin. I also happen not to find the whole question very interesting. I mainly find questions interesting when there is some chance of things changing, and I am curious why they will change or not change.

Yes, Judaism (even MO) may appear backwards to the rest of the world. However, as was stated before, the difference between, say, MO and Satmar is that we don’t try to force things on people. The stories of women harassed for sitting in the front of a bus were documented. If someone wants to live life following Satmar standards, fine, go ahead. It doesn’t bother me. But don’t expect my wife to dress to your standards, with 3 different layers buttoned up to her chin, bullet-proof tights with seams every inch, with a shaved head and a shpitzel, while walking down a public street. You have no right to make others dress that way on a public street.

Even though you refuse to answer people who would show you why you are wrong, I refuse to stop posting just because you won’t respond.

You are confusing issues.

This thread is not about forcing people from outside the community to dress to their standards while visiting, or to comply with their bus standards.

This thread is about whether the internal standards they have are somehow illegitimate. That was the point you were making before; that you think the tznius standards they have do not respect women.

You can certainly change the topic and discuss the issue of forcing people outside the community to comply, but you should not conflate the issues. So, as for your issue:

1. Harassing women in a normal mixed neighborhood is unacceptable, and I have heard nobody normal defend it. As is harassing women on a regular bus.

2. Harassing women who deliberately board a mehadrin bus in order to be a rosa parks hero and make a feminist statement, is a mitzva, and those women should be spit on. If you want to make a feminist statement, go get an abortion. (Greatest line ever, thank you, thank you.) (And don’t argue about the women’s motives, this is the case I made up.)

3. Harassing women who accidentally board a mehadrin bus, or do so out of inconvenience, and there are not seats in back, or they are too hard to get to, is unacceptable. They should not be harassed, and anyone who harasses them is a rasha, and should be spit on.

4. Harassing women who visit their neighborhoods and don’t dress to their standards, seems a bit odd to me. I think someone (a woman) should gently go over to them and inform them of the standards (if the neighborhood really is that homogeneous, like maybe New Square or kiryas yoel). (I don’t care if you have a right to go. I don’t believe in rights–that is americanishe stupidity. And if we are talking about rights, they have a right to harass you–first amendment buddy.)

You know, there have been plenty of times I have admitted being wrong on this website, after making a point. You should think about it sometime. Being open minded and everything–it’s a very americanishe value.

nishtdayngesheft: I don’t think it was necessary to get personal.

And I doubt he did ask his Posek about organ donation. I dont think anyone here actually asked and asked for a specific situation (as opposed to a general Shaila)

zdad: your posts are getting stranger.

Let me posit this: There are no specific situations in organ donation. One does not get to choose who their organs will go to after death. The shaila is precisely the same for everyone: Should you sign the blasted back of your blazing license?

I don’t know where you are all getting your information about the book and the author from. I don’t believe the book is out yet.

I only read the NY Post article, and I really didn’t see any smearing, or any bashing. I saw a nice woman saying that a certain life was not making her happy, which may have had to do with her messy family situation.

Well, my brother is a shul rabbi, and never davens at home. Once, I was at his house and had to daven shachris in the house. His 2 year old saw me wearing tefilin, and didn’t know what they were. He was saying, “why are you wearing that? I want that belt!” and tugging on the “belt.”

Why don’t you make it take place in the future, when there is intergalactic travel, and seminaries don’t exist anymore?

You shouldn’t be. I have two degrees and I’m the stupidest person on the face of the planet.

If you are stupid, it probably makes there be less of a taina on you for your aveiros. Oh well, maybe you aren’t the worlds biggest rasha–just among the biggest.

Boys to go yeshiva, to get more knowledge,

girls go to seminary, to get more stupider.

(Hmm, doesn’t have the same ring. Maybe the poetry thread people can help us out?)

I can’t imagine why this psak would be different for different people. When I go to the DMV and am asked to sign the back of my license, my situation is no different than anyone else’s.

And of course, if a relative was brain dead and the doctors were asking about pulling the plug, and about donating the organs, I would ask the shaila. Never hurts to ask a shaila. I’m not opposed to donating organs in theory- just in halacha.

yissochor dov:

1. Ok, so you are making a new argument now. Now you are saying that you personally feel certain chumros are excessive. You may be correct, and that is a fine opinion to have. I also think some chumros are excessive. But I still respect the people, and think they mean well. (One of these days I’ll go on an anti-chumrah ranting, and say what my rosh yeshiva used to say about chumros.)

2. As it happens, the burkas have been condemned by many chareidi rabbonim. We all think the burka people are crazy. And it is not relevant at all to this discussion. Don’t expect shmarya to post about that anytime soon, though.

No, it is exactly true.

A posek can take pragmatic concerns into account when deciding halacha, as is stated many times in the shulchan aruch and other rishonim and acharonim.

A person cannot decide to shop between different poskim who have already taken that into account, for pragmatic reasons.

We will sometimes be meikel on kashrus for a poor person. But if a poor person asks a shaila and is told assur, he cannot go to another posek and ask again-just because he is poor.

Go to vancouver.

I will say this much

If Ch”V someone came to you personally while your close family member was brain dead and said that you could save their mother of 8 kids who was very very sick.

Zdad: I kind of resent your implications. I do believe in Judaism, and I do have moral convictions. And I do hard things sometimes because of them.

You seem to assume that whenever there is a hard decision to make, we will always choose the easier way. That simply is not the case- historically, or in the present- and it is quite bizarre that you assume that.

(I’m debating whether to elaborate about a certain snow shoveling thread.)

I think kids should wear make-up. I think that doing otherwise represses their femininity. I think it is different than other things we consider not-tznius, in that it doesn’t call attention, and doesn’t display anything. I’m not certain I’m willing to equate not tznius with unattractive.

But you might be able to convince me.

I see. And it is impossible for me to dispute that, since I can’t even say that you don’t know nearly enough to argue, because the whole premise of your position is that it is so simple that anyone could argue–like yeravam ben nevat.

Sure, but anyone can say that about any halacha. You could, for example, say that you are going to go worship idols, and that the poskim are clearly in error and that the argument is so simple anyone can see it.

So, since I don’t see it as so simple, I’m going to think that you’re the fool.

And I suppose you think there is a taaina on me, because the argument is so simple that I shouldn’t be listening to poskim on it either.

That’s ok. I think you’re acting like a child. Nobody who agrees with about the halacha, would say what you are saying. None of the rabbonim behind the halachic organ donation say what you are saying–that the other poskim are in clear error like yeravam ben nevat and should not be followed. You are truly one person in the entire klal yisroel who is saying it.

Well, either everyone is wrong, or you are wrong. And I’m part of everyone, so I have my opinions on that.

PBA: Yeah, but what if their way of life comes at the cost of my life? That’s what I strongly disagree with. It’s okay for you to say that you’ll follow your Poskim and Hashem will take care of you. But about when you following your Poskim is taking away from someone else?

Ok Sam, since you won’t say it, I’ll say it. I assume you did think of this.

My poskim (rov poskim) take that into account also, that I am hurting you by withholding my organs from you. And they still said it is assur. I am not aware that they say it is assur only because it goes to non jews–observe that they say it is assur even in Israel!

I listen to the poskim unless they are in obvious error, like yeravam ben nevat telling us to worship idols. I don’t think you would say this is that case.

There was an article in the NY Times, called “Orthodox Paradox” by a certain Noah Feldman, who is a formerly MO, Harvard Law Professor (and whom I happen to know personally, for whatever reasons). Google the article. It is very relevant here.

He points out that although the Modern Orthodox attempt to accept modern culture and also the torah, there are irreconcilable differences. For example, he brings the idea that we only save a goy on shabbos because of darchei shalom.

And he is correct. There are irreconcilable differences between halacha and modern Western values. You need to choose one or the other. He criticizes his teachers at the MO Maimonides day school in Boston for choosing the torah. I commend them.

Thanks for the support, supporters.

GAW: I agree with your post. I don’t like forcing people anymore. When moshiach comes, we’ll do that again. And I do think the article does show out tolerance, in that regard and in others.

I would have expected Poppa to reply something along the lines that organ donation is not necessary since the poskim have already ruled that it is prohibited to use one in shul, even during the week because of chukas hagoyim. Now if one was considering a donation of chumashim….

TITCR

(This is the credited response)

I am not chassidishe, I do not hold of their minhagim. I think some of the things they do are pretty bizzare. But I try to respect them anyway, and this is one of the ways I do.

I once had a Rosh Yeshiva who spoke about shirayim. He had an interesting take, and I like to adopt it as well.

When I see grown men scrambling for a bit of gefilte fish, it astounds me. But, really, part of that astonishment is that I feel like they are fighting over something very silly. So, it is worth realizing that–for whatever reason–they think the piece of gefilte fish is really very important. I am less astounded when I think of grown men fighting over something important, than over something silly.

Then, it is mostly just a question of what I find important and what they find important. Well, I have enough respect for them that I can recognize their choices of what is important.