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Also, my point in saying that this punishment was used on me and didn’t scar me or a lot of other people i know and respect shows that there is not necessarily a correlation between get punished in school and going off the derech
Nobody is saying it is a 1:1 correlation. But it is idiotic to say that it cannot ever be a factor.
which btw is always humiliating…you think getting sent to the principal, sent home, detention etc isn’t? so do you suppose we should never punish our kids?
Don’t you think there is a difference between a punishment which happens to be embarrassing, and a punishment where the entire point is humiliation?
If you know your teacher loves you and really wants the best for you; and Baruch Hashem there are plenty of teachers like that, then the punishment isn’t as humiliating.
I don’t think this makes sense. The entire punishment here is the humiliation. There is no other purpose.
Moron writes a troll article, and the Beacon publishes it.
I am.
hmmm. Does that count?
Can we have a vote here on whether that counts for my deal?
Well, I didn’t take a writing section, I don’t think. So that makes sense then.
And since you didn’t get higher than 1130 if the high score is 240, I’m not so sure I owe you a troll thread.
It is only scored in 3 digits? Well, I definitely took the PSAT. And I definitely did not take the SAT. And I have that number stuck in my head. I think it is 1130, but I can’t be sure.
So if it really is 3 digits, then does it make sense I got 113? Is it out of 160? Must be that is what it is.
One of many, I didn’t say you could choose the topic; only that it would be dedicated to you. I’ll try to think of something good, maybe about those topics.
I never took the SAT, because I didn’t wanna. But I took the PSAT.
dachtzuch mir I got somewhere in the 1100’s. Not outstanding.
So, if you take it and get better than 1100’s, you are clearly my intellectual superior, and I will dedicate one troll thread to you, if you request. (Limited to 2 requests total.)
@PBA… you are dead wrong on this one. Some of these people are gedolim, if you know anything about Rav Yaakov Bender you would know he is not simply a “nice principal” but a tremendous gadol in the community of Far Rockaway. Please think before you say anything negative about such a person whom you’ve clearly never met
That is precisely my point. I don’t know anything about him at all. I am simply responding to one week’s edition of the yated, which I didn’t even read! I just heard about it, and am familiar with the concept.
We may have a different concept of what a gadol is. There also is no magic status called gadol.
I think I can criticize most every elementary school principal I know. And I think I can criticize ideas coming from unknown elementary school principals.
And I think you can criticize me.
why not?
Yes, but only as vashti.
essy: Please don’t take offense. I don’t know who you are, and all I am doing is responding to words. My line to treat students like humans was addressed generically; if you do so, then good. My experience has been that many teachers do not do so–they think the regular rules of bein adom l’chaveiro are somehow suspended for students.
I assume a punishment is to cause pain, because there are 4 general theories of punishment.
1. Deterrence. This is the most popular theory among the general populace. It means that you make the expected cost of the action more “expensive” than the benefit. So that if you save a dollar by not paying a meter, and will get caught one in 25 times, the punishment must be at least $25. The idea is to impose a punishment which will hurt enough to deter the action.
2. Retribution. This is the most true one. Society punishes because it makes us feel good that guilty people are punished. That is why we punish bank robbers more seriously than embezzlers, even though embezzlers do more harm. This is the notion that a rebbe should never feel toward a talmid.
3. Rehabilitation. The idea is that being in prison can teach the criminal new skills and a new way to deal with life. We are not punishing, we are just helping. In this type, it does not matter whether the person is blameworthy, only that the criminal is doing socially unwanted actions.
4. Incapacitation. Popular among liberals, it is just that you can’t rob banks from prison.
i did say that other teachers put kids in my class pretty regularly and i know they’re told that they can’t behave/do their work with their class so they’ll do it with the third grade. thats very different than being called a “baby”
No, it is exactly the same as being called a baby. I am astounded you would claim otherwise.
i said: i think that just as you put a kid in the corner in playgroup when he hits, or send him to his room to calm down, a kid can be put in the hallway, or computer lab, or office, or diff class to do his work. a step more severe, which i’ve never had to do, is to put a kid in a lower class. this takes away the reinforcement he gets from his classmates and makes him do his work.
If you don’t do it, then I commend you. However, please recognize that it is not a step further on the same continuum as being sent to the computer lab. It is an insinuation that one belongs with younger children. That is a reason they don’t send the kid to the older class.
essy8:
I really do not understand what you are saying. You seem to be going back and forth.
In one post you claimed it was just a way to give them quiet space to work. That seemed innocuous, but as Logician pointed out, therefore irrelevant to this discussion.
Now you are saying that it is a punishment, and that you do indeed tell them it is because they are acting like babies, but that they are not embarrassed by this.
I don’t understand: if they are not embarrassed, then what is the punishment? Why do you feel it is a useful deterrent? Punishment implies that you are trying to cause them pain which will deter repeat offenses. (or another theory of punishment; retribution, rehabilitation, or incapacitation.)
What would I suggest teachers do instead? I suggest they treat the students like fellow humans, and treat them as they would wish to be treated. They might find that the students respond in kind.
Part of that is allowing the kids room to breath without feeling the need to discipline.
For example, imagine a kid is sitting at his desk and wearing his snow boots on his hands. You can tell him to stop, and then when he starts fiddling with his tissue box tell him to stop, and then when he starts passing notes tell him to stop, and then tell him he’s a baby and send him to kindergarten. Or you can just ignore it.
You say you feel this can be used as a consequence. I don’t know what you mean by “consequence.” Consequence sounds that you feel that misbehavior “deserves” punishment, and that it is “justice” that actions have consequences. I don’t think that is a goal a rebbe should have toward his students. I’d leave the consequences to G-d.
And finally, I still cannot fathom how you do not think it demeans a student to be called a baby in front of his classmates, and be sent to the lower grade for a vivid picture of how you really do think he is a baby.
banim adifi m’simanim.
Cause the conversation to go in directions that will eventually lead to it being closed.
(Boy, you guys are really bad at manipulating the mods.)
i teach in an elementary boys yeshiva, and its very common place to send a boy down a grade for a while as a last resort punishment. personally, i am very careful not to speak harshly or not to embarrass a student, and i’ve never noticed that this is a super-harsh or embarrassing punishment.
Ok, why don’t you tell us what the purpose of the punishment is, if not to embarrass the kid?
they see their brother/cousin/friend and do their work in isolation and boredom.
Oh, is that the point. To have a quiet different place to do their work? Then why not send them to the higher grade? Or to the library.
now if i would threaten to send them to the principal, they literally cry and turn all sorts of colors.
Judging by the principals who responded to this, I find it quite plausible that what the principals do to them is much much worse.
Personally, I can tell you that my principal, who was well respected in the community, has a special place in gehenom reserved for him, I am sure. He would figuratively kill little chidlren–but it was very effective. Kind of like the British did by making petty theft a capital offense.
On another note, this explains why they don’t complain when you send them down a grade–at least you didn’t send them to the monster in the principals office.
Are you serious – is this how a Jew should talk?
Rambunctious boys sometimes need to be put in place. I don’t recall any big embarassment when my boys were sent home or sent to a lower grade.
Really? Then what was the point of the punishment?
If your kids aren’t telling you their feelings, that is a whole different problem.
Do you really think Rav —-
believes emotional abuse is ok?I don’t know him, except by the stuff he writes. And I don’t really keep track of what he write from yated to yated.
Just to get your idea straight: So I am not supposed to criticize any school principal?
These people are not gedolim. They are at best nice principals, and at worst clowns.
yenting: I thought we were asking what the person going to school should do; not what the patient should want.
In any event, the answer to the question here is that it really does depend what sort of program you are going to. The job market is what should determine which school you want to go to.
If it is a field like dentistry where it doesn’t matter what school you go to, then you should definitely choose stonybrook for 25k over columbia for 50k. And that is why stonybrook is more selective than columbia.
If it is a field like law where it really does matter which school you go to, then you should certainly choose columbia for 50k over New York Law School for free. (also over fordam for free, in my opinion)
I personally think that democracy is stupid anyway.
The berdichever would say, that they are even trying to be mechanech kids while they are emotionally abusing them!
Princess
Oh, I don’t think their problem is anything so sophisticated.
I think they are just plain old-fashioned, stupid.
It really depends what the degree is in.
If you are going to nursing school, go for the cheaper one. If you are going to business school, you better take HBS if you can.
What has your point got to do with voting?
Do you think women work outside the house because they vote?
I’m starting to like this logician guy.
mraven is precisely correct. And I find the chinuch roundtable to be a regular embarrassment.
Most of the writers should not be allowed within 2000 feet of a school building. We have laws protecting kids from other sorts of abuse, why shouldn’t we protect them from emotional abuse as well?
My general shitta is, that educational experts are those who can’t hack it as teachers. And I have heard the most outrageous things from these “experts.” I think it would be a great chessed to society if someone could raise the money to pay them all to just go away.
If that’s where the herd is going and one is part of the herd….
as in we are all sheep? hehe
There are other animals that we keep in herds. Like cows.
And other animals that make their own herds. Like caribou.
Speaking of which, when I went to Alaska, I went backpacking in Gates of the Artic. I was hoping to see the 30k caribou herd, but didn’t. (That is the one that hangs out there. There is another that has like 130k, but it hangs out east of there.)
And the berdichiver would mistama say that is why all the non frum men don’t wear tzitzis. (I’m not sure why he would say the non frum women do wear tzitzis.)
Good point.
There is a girl who sometimes comes to my weekday shachris minyan, and she wears tefillin and a tallis.
Why a tallis? She isn’t married!
So mistama the pshat is that she doesn’t wear a tallis kotton, so figures she should wear a tallis gadol for davening at least. I suppose that makes sense.
But why doesn’t she wear a tallis kotton then? Doesn’t she want to be like a man? I don’t know.
I’m also a bit surprised that she comes at all. If she would daven at home, she could pretend she is equal. But since she comes, she sees blatantly how she is not counted toward the minyan and other things. (One day this week we were 9 plus her.)
Plus, sometimes I spit on her, if I need to spit during davening.
one of the best books ive ever read
Yeah, let’s not get carried away here.
When I was in high school, one day our math teacher was yelling at us, when he suddenly started looking very pale, and clutching his chest. Then he collapsed.
So, we took his body, and hid it in the closet where the rebbi kept his coat.
You should have seen the rebbi’s face when he opened the door!
We were laughing so hard! It was so funny! I mean, imagine you open the door to the closet, and a dead body falls out! And so clever!
Fancy Weddings
Since when do you need a Smogosboard, 5 course dinner along with a 5 piece band in a fancy hall.
It is a mishegas. We are spending way beyond our means on weddings. It is insane to spend a year’s earnings on one night.
IMO we can learn alot from the goyim in this and have simplier wedding with maybe 50 people people with a smogosboard or in a restaurant
I think we should do this. But, I don’t think we should do it for the same reason as the goyim. The goyim make simple weddings because they don’t really respect marriage as a very special thing, in the way we do. We should make simple weddings because we simply can’t afford it.
But popa, what do you do about the issue of La’av she’ein bo maaseh, eino lokin olov? Here we are talking about a “thought” crime, or a refusal to do something, not an actual maaseh. Kal v’chomer if it is not an adjudicated la’av, how can beating be permitted?
Sorry, I wasn’t aware we were talking about particular cases. I thought we were talking in general about the notion of forcing compliance through physical threat and coercion.
But, if you want to talk about things which are not chayav malkus, the gemara also says that beis din can force whatever they want through whatever means they want, if they think there is a more widespread problem.
Rav Schachter also Paskens (I think he published this in Ginas Egoz) that you are Over on Bal Tigrah if you wear Lavan without T’cheiles and therefore he says that it’s better to wear no Tzitzis at all than to wear Lavan without T’cheiles.
And the berdichiver would mistama say that is why all the non frum men don’t wear tzitzis. (I’m not sure why he would say the non frum women do wear tzitzis.)
The Gemorah in Pesachim I think says its forbidden to travel at night because of the danger. I dont think anyone here follows that
So then I went to visit my grandmother. And I wanted to leave in the evening. So I made sure to leave before shekia (to drive several hours) because I knew she’d be scared if I left at night. I told here I was leaving “??? ???”
Would love to eat caviar once in my life….”
So once upon a time I caught a salmon in Alaska, and I then I slit it open to gut it, and it was full of eggs because it was spawning. So I just grabbed one out, and ate it. Goo and all.
In Europe there was one Etrog per City, everyone shared. They were very hard to get and you heard of stories of people spending their food money or rent to get one
So you are saying that we don’t spend enough on our esrogim, since we don’t spend our food money on it?
So, please educate me. Why might techeilis be an issue but other garments not.
I don’t know. I know very little about lo sisgodidu.
Wolf: The din of lo sisgodidu has actual rules; it isn’t just some vague notion.
Frankly, I don’t like this post very much.
When we say that Hashem does what is best for us, we don’t mean that the plane was going to crash so Hashem made us miss it, or anything like these examples.
In fact, assuming this is the answer, directly contradicts the notion that Hashem is omnipotent and does only the best. Because, why couldn’t Hashem make you not miss the flight, and also make the plane not crash? The answer must be that it was specifically good for you to feel the pain of missing the flight.
The proper hashkafa is that Hashem does what is best for us, and that if we are in pain, it means the pain itself was the best for us.
Seems to me like he could use a good psychologist. I don’t know why YWN would publicize this.
Yes, I agree with your second point, that it would not increase love for the torah, if done today.
You should also agree with my second point, that it was a normal occurence back when we had control. Every time someone received malkus for violating a lav, it was physical religious coercion. And since it was the policy, you always had the threat hanging over you also.
I think physically harming people to get them to obey halacha transgresses Diracheha Darchei Noam. And the rare exceptions where it was allowed are laws that we cannot comprehend.
None of this is correct:
It does not transgress anything.
It was not rare.
We can comprehend it just fine.
You’re really complaining about kids having too much candy on Purim when the adults are all having far too much of things much, much worse?
This is the credited response.
There are endless articles and publications about why specifically countries and people won’t give organs to Jews/Israelis because Jews refuse to donate organs. Look around online if you have the stomach to read anti-Semitic writings.
Wait, you got the information from anti-semitic websites? I thought you had reliable information.
Next you’re going to start a thread about how we should not kill their lord and savior, in order to not have aiva.
Does it pay? Well, you don’t have to pay, but I don’t think they pay you either.
My friend went on one. He had a good time, but the kashrus was a major issue. He basically ate chocolate puddings.
What? Is this a joke? Lox and cream cheese with onion on a bagel is now subject to a chumra?
Wow. Your vitriol really knows no bounds. And it is amazing how ignorant you are. One would think you would at least find out a little bit before going on your anti torah rants.
It is the Beis Yosef (You know, like Rav Yosef Karo, you know, like the greatest halachic codifier since the rambam, you heard of him, yes?). Many sfardim follow it.
Really, I used to think you were anti-torah. But now I see that you simply don’t know what the torah is. You should learn a couple of pages at least, before you start criticizing.
I’ve never heard of him. So, I would follow “rov”. “Rov” says he is a fraud.
Hmm, am I right? How should we apply rov here?
Seems that if he came to you, we could say he was piresh from the rov, so that we would say he is a fraud.
But, if you go to him, then he is kavua, so we should say it is 50-50. Like the case in kesubos with the woman who was impregnated by the passul l’kehuna.
So you should make sure to go to where he lives, not that he should come to you. Then it is only 50-50.
I guess 50-50 is not so bad. If you go to two, then statistically you will have gotten at least one real one. That actually sounds really good.
I suppose unless the rov creates a chazaka, kind of like a ruba d’leisa kaman. (Is that how we understand ruba d’leisah kaman? I can’t recall.)
Also, reading their site made me not want to accept an organ either. When you accept an organ, they wait until you are ready, and then kill the donor and cut out his/her organ to give to you. So basically you are killing him.
It seems that this is muttar even according to the rov poskim who say to not donate. I don’t exactly know why. But either way, it still kind of bothers me.
Maybe I’d go to china where at least they are killing convicts. (Actually, their site had a thing from Rav Elyashiv that you can’t get organs in china.)
How about pig tea? Is pig tea kosher?