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I didn’t want to derail that other thread
Yeah, I think the only way to derail that thread, would be to start posting halacha about mesira.
And anywhere close to Shichruso Shel Lot is life-threatening.
Agreed. And that is the mitzva according to the mechaber, nonetheless.
In my yeshiva, they had hatzala all over the place.
It isn’t so surprising; when something is important, you can accept some danger. At the marathon, they also have ambulances standing by.
And the top YU guys are just as good as the top guys from any other Yeshivah anyway.
My totty could beat up your totty.
peoples i am too tired to keep repeating the same things over and over again, so with this post, i end my part of the discussion here, still unhappy with the outcome, but too tired to continue.
It was just getting interesting.
Here is the bach. I will quote and then explain.
? ????? ?????? ???’. ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ???? (???? ? ??? ? ?”? ?”? ????) ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? (????? ??’ ?) ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??”?:
?????”? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??’ ???? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??’ ???? ?????? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??’ ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??’ ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????????? (?”? ??”? ??? ?) ??? ??? ????”? (??”? ????) ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????”? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ???”?:
So he starts with tosfos and the ran. They hold that it is almost impossible to get drunk enough to really not know between haman and mordechai, so they say it is a bit less until you don’t know the whole line about esther and zeresh, etc. Which is still pretty drunk.
Bach rejects that. Bach says that the pashtus of the gemara is that you must literally get drunk enough until ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ???. Until it is almost as drunk as ??? who did not know what his daughters were doing. Shikruso shel lot is patur from all mitzvos. It is drunker than I have ever been in my life, even on any purim.
Now, Bach himself ultimately rejects the gemara as not being the halacha, and reads the story in the gemara as retracting the halacha. But, anyone who does hold of the gemara (like the Mechaber), would then hold you must get drunk almost like shikruso shel lot.
And here is the elya rabba, explaining why we must do it, even though it is disgusting and usually frowned upon:
?????? ???’. ??”? ???? ?????? ??”? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????, ??”? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ?”? ????, ?? ????? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ????, ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?”? ???? ???? ???, ???? ????? ????? ?????? (??) ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????, ??”? ?????? ????”? ??’ ?”? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????:
And here is the Shaarei teshuva:
???? – ???”? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???’ ????? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ????? (?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????) ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ??”?, ??????? ??”? ???”? ??? ?”? ?’ ????? ?? ????? ?”? ??”? ?? ????? ??? ?????’ ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ??’ ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ????:
Notice how he brings the siddur amudei shamayim, who says that his father used to do the gemara like the pashtus, when he was young and strong.
And what do you know? Aruch hashulchan asks this question:
???? ????? ??”? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ??”? ???? ??”? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???’ ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??”? ????? ??”? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??”? [????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ??”? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ???]:
yummy: I’m not sure how to respond to that. It says to drink until you don’t understand the difference between blessed is mordechai and cursed is haman. That seems to be a way of saying an extreme level of drunkenness.
In fact, the ran says that it really means that you don’t understand the difference between ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ???????, because just haman and mordechai is impossible to drink enough to get that drunk.
Sam: The Beis yosef says: ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????. ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? (?:) ????? ??????? (?”? ???) ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??”? (?: ?”? ??’) ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??”? (??) ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??’ ???? ?????? ????? (??) ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???: ???? ?????? ???? (??’ ????? ??? ??) ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???
Then, he himself writes in the shulchan aruch: ???? ???? ?????? ?????? * ?? ??? ??? (?) ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????.
Reading the beis yosef, it is not clear how he is paskening. The beis yosef brings different opinions. I think it is fair to say the shulchan aruch accepts the one which he codified by itself. I think it is fair to say he intended the shulchan aruch to be read by itself without reference to other opinions he had brought in the beis yosef.
Have you ever seen anyone assuming the shulchan aruch himself did not paskin like something he says explicitly, because he had brought both opinions in the beis yosef? I have never seen this, and my semicha covered 280 blatt of shulchan aruch.
popa: i’m still waiting for you to quote where in shulchan aruch it writes that you should get so drunk that you should get sick to your stomach and throw up, compromise on the other mitzvos, act out of control and inappropriately, and cause chillul Hashem.
It says ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????. Hardly ambiguous.
You can see that it is literal, since the rema disagrees and says one does not need to get that drunk, but rather need only get drunk the way you suggest.
and why do you keep misinterpreting what i say? to get drunk is ok. go dance in the streets, show ur simcha… but what i describe above, is disgusting.
I’m not misinterpreting. I am saying that many poskim and the shulchan aruch say to get drunk in the manner which is disgusting. That is, throwing up, completely oblivious to reality, etc.
yummy: No, it isn’t really better. You cannot sit and say that people who interpret the shulchan aruch and other poskim who say to get totally drunk are backwards. You are simply incorrect–it is exactly what they meant.
And it is not relevant what the kitzur shulchan aruch says, because I am not trying to convince you that we paskin to get drunk–just that it is a completely valid opinion in the poskim.
I am aware of the poskim who say to not get drunk. And you could also sit down and read poskim who say you should get drunk.
You cannot sit and choose between poskim and call some “backwards”. The shulchan aruch interpreted chazal to mean that we should get drunk. He was not backwards. You can ask your rav how he paskins, but you cannot call the other opinion backwards. That is not legitimate.
I’ve read it, and it isn’t any hashkafa–good nor bad. It is just a book about how men and women think, and is quite helpful in understanding why women are such morons.
PBA: You think Chazal and the Mechaber intended for us to do something that is K’ilu being Oved Avodah Zarah?
Yes. I do think so. As many of the poskim explicitly hold. And as you admitted Rav Yisroel held.
For an explanation of why chazal did this, I once saw an essay in the sefer ???? ???????? by Rav Dovid Leibowitz, who was a talmid of slabodka and founded yeshiva chofetz chaim.
it has to do with our knowledge of the world changing. I could bring dozens of examples for things like that.
You mean like Metzitzah B’peh? 😉
I meant things which we are machmir because we no longer understand the world well enough to differentiate between things. Like that we are not ?????? ??? ???? ????, or when matza is mixed well enough that it has no flour left in it, etc.
Not things like that we know pigs can be eaten safely, so we can eat pigs now and not do metzitza b’peh.
Just curious, if you get so drunk, what do you do about Davening Ma’ariv and Bentsching after the Se’uda?
Same thing chazal intended, and the mechaber intended, and gedolim and yirei Hashem did for thousands of years: I bentch and daven drunk.
The story of Rav Yisroel continues, that when they klopped for borchu, he got up from under the table, and was able to control himself such that he was normal again. But mistama his talmidim weren’t.
Gebrochts is a great example, no?
I think not. Gebrochts does not have to do with our yetzer hara changing, it has to do with our knowledge of the world changing. I could bring dozens of examples for things like that.
Rav Yisrael Salanter is famous for having a different Shittah about drinking on Purim (see the Emek Brachah). Yes, he did used to get drunk. And from what I have heard he was a minority.
Well, that explains it all then. I am a 5th generation talmid of R’ Yisroel, as are most of the yeshiva people in the world, since almost all the yeshivos are slabodka.
So you think that changed because our yetzer hara “has gone mad”.
1. Please bring a source that that is the reason.
2. Please bring a source that there was a halacha there which we no longer follow.
3. Do you have even one which is less than 2000 years? How about since the time of the shulchan aruch?
4. This is not the point. The rema does not say that anything changed. The poskim who hold we don’t get drunk do not say that anything changed. You made that up. That is not ok.
And it was not ok for you to call it “backwards” if it has changed. If it has changed, then it was not backwards then, and it is not backwards now–it has just changed.
Just retract it. I’ll respect you.
what do you mean its not the way we usually do halacha? there are a lot of things that we did in those days that we don’t do now because of yeridas hadoros and our super powerful yetzer hara.
Please give me 3 examples since the time of the shulchan aruch.
Or blazes, give me 3 examples ever.
PBA: I was responding to your comment about calling the opinion we don’t Pasken by being backwards.
I don’t undertand. You think I usually call opinions of rishonim that we don’t pasken like “backwards”?
And are you sure about your Minhag thing?
Rav Yisroel Salanter used to get drunk out of his brains until he was lying under the tables drunk. I heard this story along with the direct line of who heard it from whom. I think it was 6th or 7th hand. And the first two “hands” were the alter of kelm, the alter of slabodka; and the next few were just about as reliable.
But, I suppose that is all the information I have about it.
yummy: that is an interesting theory. But it isn’t how we usually do halacha.
I also find this conversation ironic. Don’t you usually argue that we should respect other opinions that we don’t hold of. Shouldn’t that apply to rishonim and the shulchan aruch?
I’m not saying you should say it is even ok to get drunk today, if we happen to pasken otherwise. But you cannot call the shulchan aruch backwards.
My answer to your question is that the minhag has always been to get drunk. We have always paskened that you get drunk. Nothing has changed in all those years.
yummy: I didn’t say your father gets drunk, nor that your rav gets drunk. I said you should have some respect for the rishonim and acharonim, including the shulchan aruch who say quite literally that you should get drunk.
Just because we paskin one way, should not mean that we consider the other opinion backwards or barbaric.
that argument is extremely sad! it is so backward to think that chazal would want us to make ourselves sick and throw up and act so disgusting.
Sam: Do you see what you are doing? The shitta that we should do that, and should get sick and throw up, is a completely valid shitta. It is the pashtus in the gemara, and is held of by the shulchan aruch.
Even the shittos that hold it is not the halacha, hold that it was the halacha until the story in the gemara happened.
It is not backward. I’m not saying I understand it, and I’m not saying you should understand it. But to simply sit there on your armchair and call chazal and rishonim “backward” is absolutely wrong.
yummy: why don’t you ask your father that question? Or your rav. Ask them if the shulchan aruch who holds you are supposed to do exactly that, is backward?
Sam2: Are you for real? Who on this thread is attacking the yidishkeit of other frum jews? Who is claiming that thousands of people who do something that their rebbeim tell them to do are doing something “unnecessary” which endangers their children?
Even 1 is too many.
That is your judgment.
Well, I’d prefer that the rabbis decide that.
yes. ignore it
sam: give us a survey. I did the survey last time about wine v. other alcohol.
but suffice it to say that getting blind drunk on Purim is not what the Chachomim had in mind.
Actually, it does not suffice to say that. The gemara, rishonim, shulchan aruch, etc. say that it is a mitzva to get blind drunk. In fact, the example brought by the gemara is of an amorah who killed his friend in his blind drunkenness.
Your opinion is backed by some poskim, but not by the pashtus nor by the majority. It does not suffice to “say” it.
What is the issue here? That one kid was sad that his father was not drinking? Too bad, the father didn’t want to drink.
a Bais yakkov girl who very open minded
I like to think I’m open minded.
I like to think you can be open minded and yeshivish, open minded and chassidish, open minded and catholic, open minded and mormon, open minded and politically conservative, etc.
Do you mean to say that this girl is feeling disconnected from her BY past? Why would you use the term “open-minded” as a synonym for that?
All these things are possible. That is why we have researchers and empirical studies.
If the doctor has an open herpes sore, there is something like an 90+% chance that he will transmit it to the baby.
Ok, but the directly relevant question is: What percentage of metzitza b’peh occurrences leads to Herpes transmission, versus what percentage of babies develop herpes anyway?
Let’s keep in mind, that herpes is hardly a rare virus. In one study I found on google, they found herpes virus in 98% of healthy participants. (herpes simplex virus type I (HSV-1)). So it is probably pretty normal for babies to have, but if I could be wrong on that conclusion.
The doctor? you mean the mohel?
Tremendous risk? How big risk? Are there studies? 1 in 1000? 1 in 10000? 1 in 50?
Bris has very little risk? Are there studies?
What is the risk in building a sukka? More or less than metzitza? People fall from ladders, cut themselves on saws, hit themselves with hammers, puncture with nail guns…
What is the risk of chanuka candles? Shabbos candles?
Shechita? People get trampled by cows…
Mikva? people drown (I know a case)
Fasting on yom kippur? people die, the doctors are sometimes wrong..
Drinking on purim? (ok, forget that one)
Breaking a glass under the chuppa? people have cut their foot.
Dancing on simchas torah? People have had heart attacks, have broken legs, etc
Throwing candy at aufruf and bar mitzva? Hitting in eye, kids getting trampled…
Staying up on shevuos
trying to get home in time for shabbos
etc.
Pesach tips. I have the best pesach tips.
Go to your parents the first days, and your inlaws the last days. This way, when you show up all the hard work is already done. And on motzei yontiff when there is all sorts of work to do, nobody gets mad at you for slinking off because you are a son-in-law (or daughter in law).
Don’t tell your spouse this cheshbon.
How could an adult putting his saliva in direct contact with an infant’s open wounds possibly not be dangerous???
If a doctor spit on the instruments he was using to examine (not to mention inserting like shots, tongue depressors etc.)your child with would you be O.K. with that??
Certainly it carries certain dangers. The question is how large those dangers are, and how important the reasons to do it are. And then how those interests balance.
The question of how large the danger is, should be ascertained by the doctors.
The question of how important the reasons to do it are, should be ascertained by the rabbis.
The balancing of the interests, should be done by the rabbis, since that itself is the question of how important the reasons to do it are.
In any event, I’m betting, that the bris itself is far more dangerous than the added risk of metzitza b’peh. And Health will back me up on that, or shoot me down on that.
popcorn.
And now we find out this. Apparently, NBC cut out part of the 911 call to make it look racially motivated.
NBC aired this:
The real call went like this:
Zimmerman: He looks black.
At this point, I’m about ready to say that it is just as likely that Zimmerman was actively hunting black men to kill, as it is likely that Zimmerman and Martin knew each other and were in a fight about a tech start up that Martin had started and Zimmerman was providing venture capital to, and using his contractual powers to squeeze out martin in the second round of financing.
We know absolutely nothing about this story. I’m even willing to believe at this point that nobody was killed, and that Zimmerman is a made up person. I don’t even know that Sanford, FL even exists.
A quarter? I think you aren’t supposed to give more than a fifth, and it probably shouldn’t be all to one person either.
I googled for that story, and only one weird website carried it, and, either the story was taken down or the website is overloaded because the link doesn’t work.
So, it seems the story has holes, because nobody else is carrying it.
He claimed 900 million dollars last year but because of his sketchy accounting he only paid 2 % in taxes.
“Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one’s taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands.”
-Judge Learned Hand
OK PBA – lets go for a beer summit
It’s a deal.
I really did think you were asking in bad faith, but looking back at the OP, I see the first post may have been an innocent mistake. I shouldn’t have called it retarded the first time around.
RUN and tell that. Not “go” and tell that. popa is so ignorant. Oh let me guess- he misspoke, right yeah I believe THAT
I don’t have to come and confess.
Popa I have no idea how you get away with talking like this. It’s disgusting.
Me you have questions on? This idiot comes here to spew violent hatred against the lomdei torah, and your problem is that I use “not nice words”? But that you don’t protest?
You are correct that I am not talking nicely, but it is amazing to me that in a thread like this, you could complain only about my comments.
As for PBA. Consider those terms of endearment.
Thanks
People will pay more because its going to Tzedakh. Like when they send you a free tape in the mail – most people give more
This deserved repeating. I’ve heard that if you repeat something idiotic, it starts to seem true, so I repeated it.
Hmmm. Not working yet. Let me try again.
People will pay more because its going to Tzedakh. Like when they send you a free tape in the mail – most people give more
Still not.
People will pay more because its going to Tzedakh. Like when they send you a free tape in the mail – most people give more
I give up. Maybe I’ll come back later and try again.
What business owner is going to hire an untrained yeshiva bochur to work for a short period of time? And pay him $2500? I don’t understand where this idea comes from
Nechomah: if hes working for a whole month in a warehouse packing, delivering, etc –
This is an example of how someone hates yeshiva guys, so will make up anything in order to have a complaint.
Now you want them to spend an entire month working in a warehouse.
Well, firstly, yeshivos don’t have an entire month off, once you count the days of yomtov.
Second, you can hardly expect them to spend their entire vacation working in a warehouse. When would they have vacation?
Most important, you are still making up facts. Because no warehouse is going to pay a yeshiva guy 2500 a month either. A month is about 160 hours of work. 7.15×160=1114. Even if they pay 10 an hour, 10×160=1600.
And nobody hires people for a month. Especially not a month when they will have to take off 4 or 5 days for yom tov! And don’t go with some pesach season hiring stupidity, because the pesach season ends after half the month.
You are so dumb. You are really really dumb. For real. So you can go and tell that homeboy, homeboy, homehomehomeboy.
tina18: You have no idea what you are talking about. You are making up facts to fit your stupid agenda, and you sound like a moron.
This is retarded. My brother made about 5000 dollars in a week. If you can find a local business to hire him for that amount, then kol hakavod.
Why not Ban travelling to Manhattan.
How about banning riding the Subway.
How about banning visiting such stores as Macy’s
I’m unsure what you are trying to say. It sounds like your argument is, that if schools are going to legislate morality on their students, then they should intrude into every aspect of their lives.
That sounds bizarre. I’m not sure why you would criticize the schools for being responsible and not intruding into every aspect of the students lives.
Unless you are saying that you think going to Macy’s is egregious enough that it is similar to facebook. That is a strange opinion.
When are we running the draft?
Not me. I never planned to do any to begin with.
a lot of guys are dumb!!!
Tell me about it. Almost every guy I know is dumb! I have barely met a single intelligent guy in the whole world!
Sometimes I feel like Me, Bar shattya, and sheep spleen are the only normal people left on earth.
the guys in the cr they are in some dream fantasy world like their fantasy sports teams.?!?!
Hmm. fantasy shidduch games. How would that work.
Do the guys get to draft real people from BMG onto our fantasy teams, and then the girls in the game draft people from BJJ onto their teams, and then we negotiate with different players for how to set them up?
Will there be alternative markets like SYAS and frumster?
This could be a winner.
A Sheep without a Spleen: Hi buddy long time no see. You may not have a spleen but you certainly have guts… hiding yourself away the whole time then running in to show your face (which I hope you do have) from time to time. Why do you keep doing that? And hows your pesach spleening getting along?
??? ??????!!!!