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Sometimes teens are just teenage-y. Even though you show plenty of love and caring, they just act moody and annoyed.
To those who say you shouldn’t be telling them to do things anymore, sometimes you HAVE to ask them to do something. Like, I am carrying in the groceries and the baby at the same time, can you please help me and take something.
In my experience, sometimes a quiet but firm “I asked you to do something” gets them to do it. Grumpily, but they do it, and that is fine with me.
Sometimes, they don’t do it,and then I can give them that “disappointed look”, or tell them I am disappointed.
And then, of course, sometimes, in my best parenting moments, I yell 🙂
I have found that as they are getting older, I am getting that moodiness less.
Syag Lchochma – you’re making assumptions 🙂
I do it and I am happy that I do it too. I am just saying that I don’t think that when I got married, at just 20, I knew what I was really signing up for. It is almost 20 years later, and the responsibility for everything (kids, house, parnassah) is heavier than most people realize when dating. That does not mean that waiting longer to start dating (the original point of the thread) would change things. IMO, waiting until you are older would not change much – life teaches us better than anything else. Just making a point that there is a big gap between what we idealistically want and the reality down the road, and the effects our decisions have on our marriages and our lives. Things are easier in the theoretical than in real life. I don’t think there is a solution to this, or that waiting 2 or 3 more years would make a difference. I think that is how life is…experience is a much better teacher than all the advice in the world.
How good is it for a marriage when the wife is expected to be the supporter?
Not sure.
People who are afraid of ayin hara are worried that if someone is too beautiful, successful, etc., others will be jealous and it will be as if in Shamayim they will “re-think” if you really deserve that bracha. So, if you show that they are not something so great, there will be no need to re-judge them in Shamayim. Poo Poo is like spitting on the person to show they are not so great.
Something along those lines.
You can’t. Its engraved in the phone. They thought of that before you :).
I would imagine that the seminary has suggestions about where to get them, and as someone else said, some schools have a plan so that all the girls are on the same plan.
If not, any of the carriers in Israel have kosher lines – orange, cellcom, etc. And they all come with the stamp.
rbsjew – i appreciate your comments and the respectful tone. BTW, I DO pay full arnona and all of my other taxes. (I do get more points for having more kids, but I don’t think that’s the main issue here….)
I think that the reason I get upset is because of the way you, and others, seem to think that the people like me are so few and far between, when the reality I see is different.
From my vantage point, as a chareidi woman in a chareidi community, I see that a very large majority of chareidi women work, and work hard to support their families. I am not saying it does not happen that people rely on avtachat hachnasah, etc., but I do think it happens less than you think.
I think the PR that the chareidim have to the country as a whole is terrible, and that people see chareidim much in the way you do, when, it is not the reality for most. The secular then resent the chareidim and are spewing hate, which makes the chareidim feel frightened and intimidated.
RBSJew – what was that and where do you get your info?
If you had read through the posts here, you would see that there are plenty of us (Chareidim) who work for a living, pay taxes, and live peacefully in the medinah with our husbands learning. The only thing I can see that would offend anyone else is the fact that our husbands do not go to the army. (Which I think is a different topic.)
I do not ask for more money. I do not complain about what they give. I do work,I don’t complain about discrimination, and I pay arnona, income tax, mas briut and everything else. Based on the same tax laws as the chilonim.
What do you find so offensive about our behavior?
MDD: Again, the premise that we are staying in learning on “their” dollar is what I am disagreeing with…..My husband is in learning on MY dollar. The objection is to the 750 shekels a month?
GAW: I personally don’t know of any gedolim who are selling their principles in order to keep taking money from the medinah, but maybe you are referring to something I don’t know about?
mdd: have you considered the possibility that you are wrong?
Are you basic your assumption based on first hand knowledge of the Israelis in the chareidi cities?
And as we have said countless times – not only as computer programmers. There are lots of jobs out there (other than teaching) that make enough to almost support a family. Combined with the husuband’s cheder/yeshiva job, it very well could be just barely enough.
The frei are mad for 2 reasons:
1. They have been fed the same lies you have by the media all of their lives, so they don’t know the reality. I can’t tell you hoe few chareidim most chilonim have ever met, and when they meed you they say “you are not like the rest of them”
2. Because of the army. Another topic – let’s not get into it here please.
Just because the frei are mad, doesn’t mean that what they have been told and are saying is true. The perfect example was this add that datot is 3500 shekels……
Our girls have been educated to feel proud if their husband is a serious ben Torah, instead of being proud if their husband is a successful businessman.
Maybe it is not genuine or deep for everyone, but I think that overall it is a positive thing.
Ashreinu.
zahavasdad: If that’s the case, then what was the point about your post about the jetsetters? What does that have to do with chilonim supporting chareidim?
yserbius: the point of this thread is the chilonim supposedly supporting the chareidim. That is the only point I was addressing.
Your questions are good ones, and you are not the first one to take note of it. In E”Y, by the chareidim, it is basically learn in kollel or you are not considered acceptable mainstream chashuva ben torah. America provides a lot more options to be a chushuva ben torah who is not in kollel all day.
But I think all of that is another topic.
I also think that your percentages on the taxes are way off.
zahavasdad: As we in Israel would say “Mah Hakesher”?
And therefore? If I had to guess, I would say that their parents are paying for their trips.
What does that have to do with chilonim supporting them? Unless your kollel relatives have chiloni parents who are subsidizing their jetsetting…..(Which, BTW there would be nothing wrong with IMO, if that’s how they wanted to spend their money)
My husband and I like the sevara.
This is mixing with the otehr post about Yair Lapid. I guess Yael E, EY Mom and I are all working kollel wives in E”Y who seem to be in agreement that the facts on the ground are that most Israeli chareidi women work and pay income taxes, property taxes and the rest and are entitled to the social benefits that everyone gets. zahavasdad seems to think that we are wrong at that the chilonim are paying more than 50% of their money for all of us who don’t work.
BTW, kitzvat yeladim was cut back significantly several years ago. It used to be more. I don’t remember the precise change, but something having to do with the number not increasing the same amount exponentially once you have more than 4 kids.
mdd: first of all, not sure what doesn’t add up about my numbers, but either way, not sure what the issue is here. I never claimed anything about how Israelis pay for dirahs or chasunahs. The only thing I claimed was that your statements about Israeli chareidim living off of the chilonim is just not the metziyus. It is a convenient, inflammatory statement, but it is just not ture
yichusdik: the way the israeli system works is the education is free. For everyone. B”Y are recognized by the government, and therefore are free. Cheders are not. I am not sure about this, but I think depending on what your cheder teaches, they get some gov’t support. That is why we pay for the boys and not for the girls. Again, my point is just that it is not subsidized by the “frei” working people,a s opposed to the lazy chareidim.
In terms of your questions about the numbers, please remember that Israeli couples, as opposed to Americans, usually own an apartment and do not have to pay a mortgage or tuition, except for the numbers discussed above. Medical care is also socialized, so the costs are much lower than you American are used to thinking about.
That is not to say that people don’t struggle, just giving you an idea.
I do not want to start listing my income, or someone else in computers, and then all of our expenses. My point in getting involved here at all was just to clarify some misconceptions about Isreali chareidim.
First of all, thank you for your respectful reply.
What you are missing is that you were probably dealing with Anglos. I am referring to the vast majority of Israeli chareidi wives.
As opposed to what mdd says, my experience is that more anglos have parental support than Israelis and that most Israelis work. Their kids are in mishpachton or tzaharon, or some other day care until the fahter gets home at lunch and he watches the kids until the wife gets home at 3:30-4.
I never said they had more than enough money for day to day. I said that we are not living off of the frei’s money. The frei are not paying for our kids’ weddings, dirahs, etc. (Don’t ask me who is….no idea, but again, that is not related to the gov’t paying the kollel checks)
If the kollel stipend is more than the 750 shekles, then of course it helps. People here were questioning the “large” kollel stipends that the government is paying for. Obviously some people try to get into higher paying kollels, but as you said, those are supported by US donors – not by the government.
In terms of yeshivas, etc. I know that my 3 sons are in cheder which I have to pay every month. (I pay around $120 a month for each kid.) Noone subsidizes that. The fathers, as you say, are in kollel, or have some postition, either in a yeshiva or other klei kodesh.
The girls’ BY is free, except for fees now and then, until they reach HS, and then it is around 200 shekels a month and then you also have to pay a few hundred shekels a month for transportation.
Hi, As I and Yael and Israeli-Chareidi said, the correct number is around $200.
There was some controversy about an ad that said that kollel members make something like 3,500 NIS a month. Noone knows where they got that # from, but it has certainly made the chilonim angry…
Yes, the doctor who finally helped me is an old-timer. I was actually quite nervous because he was so old. But as opposed to the 2 “up to date” gastros who blew me off as long as it wasn’t colitis, crohn’s or cancer, he tried to help. And B”H(!!!) it actually worked. Once my system slowed down, I stayed on the meds for a few months, and I have been fine for a few years since. (Bli Ayin Hara.)
BTW, it is a drug that is not used in the US. He told me that he has patients who bring it in from E”Y. HaIkar that it worked.
Very frustrating to be the patient and have doctors tell you that nothing is wrong with you, when they could have put a little effort into trying some things to help you, even if they are “old school”.
OP- A blessing to you to find the root cause of your health problems and a Refuah Shleimah!
zahavasdad – did you hear anyone ask to replace the welfare payments with funds from the US? I didn’t.
The point here is that the statements like “it is time for the chareidim in EY to wake up and stop taking a free ride from chilonim” are just false and based on misinformation.
Almost all chareidim’s wive’s work. They deserve the same social benefits as any other family in Israeli society. That is no free ride.
Mixing with the Lapid thread here. We get 750 NIS a month from the Mir. We have ba”h 7 kids. I don’t know what it is based on or if it gets higher depending on how long you’ve been there. I also don’t know if that is just the Mir, or if other kollels get the same.
Of course, there are “better paying” kollels, but that is not money from the government, that is private donors giving money to support a kollel.
For the record, for today’s dollar, that amounts to: approximately $200, as Yael pointed out.
It is not enough for anyone, no matter how simply they live, to live on.
gavra: Like I said. The ONLY money that we “get” is 750 NIS a month as a kollel stipend. That is it. Would I like them not to give it? Of course not, everyone appreciates a little extra cash. Is this money the make it or break it for me? Certainly not.
Would you like me to refuse any money at all, even the money that the chilonim get, such as for kitzvad yeladim, just because I am not a chiloni? Why should I? I work, and pay taxes, just like they do.
Am I taking welfare? No.
Not sure the point of your question. Again, I, like MOST women in chareidi Israeli society, work. I pay taxes. How exactly am I, and most chareidi families mooching?
I am not disputing the fact that SOME PEOPLE take adavantage and do not even try to put in proper hishtadlus.
I am disputing the facts as stated here. The VAST PERCENTAGE of chareidi women are working (quite hard) and paying their lawful dues to the government. What dream world are we living in? Why don’t we deserve the same social benefits that others get? How am I living off of the “frei’s” money?
Ok people, you really don’t know your information.
Yes, bli ayin hara, I have kids. Several. And no, I do not live in RBS.
I have no idea what you are saying about insurance costs – I had my first kid in the US – it cost a lot there. Here, medicine is socialized and EVERYONE pays small monthly fees for kupat cholim. Me inlcluded. All chareidim included. Why is it that the frei are paying for that?
Yes, by law, money is taken out of my paycheck every month to put away money for later. And the company contributes as well. No, it is not enough money to buy a dirah for each of my daughters, but that is another topic about how things work here.
That is true for any working peron in E”Y.
Yes, my hubby gets a kollel check from the mir for around 700 shekels once very few months, when they are able to pay. I am paying for that as much as the frei are.
Any israeli woman working in computers is making enough money to support her family. (Except if she works for matrix which they only do for the first few years until they have some experience.) Same is true for accounting, bookkeeping, school psychology, the various therapies and many other jobs.
Those in teaching do not make enough money to support a family well, but families here make do with a lot less. Don’t forget there is no tuition. Most of my neighbors teach in more than one school, to keep the family afloat. Nobody around me is loafing around, sucking the frei of their hard-earned money. Where do you people get your information? From the facts on the ground or from what you are assuming?
Why is our situation any different than a frei family where the husband works and the mother is home with her kids? Because I am moser nefesh for my husband to learn? Why am I not paying for her births?
I am not arguing that there aren’t those who need government help, but let’s not make generalizations about the charedim in E”Y who have to wake up to reality. The people around me are all working very hard.
Health – not sure what you meant in your first comment to me – we were agreeing. Blood in stool is not part of IBS – she should have that checked and not blow it off as psychological
In terms of your second point, there can be cases of IBS that are stress related, but there can also be physiological reasons. Silly not to try to treat it based on the theory that it is psychological, when it can be easily solved.
I had several docs tell me it is psychological and to “try not to think about it”. I lost 20 pounds and could barely leave my house. I found one doctor who gave me an anti-spasmotic and it was gone within a few months. No trace of it. Chaval for people to suffer unnecessarily instead of a doctor trying to treat them first and then using the “mind-body connection” thing when meds don’t work.
The brand name is Omepradex in Israel. I think they have an OTC version.
Wondering where all of you people get your info.
Your completely false statements are in the CR and in the media in general.
I am a kollel wife of 18+ years living in E’Y.
I work (yes, in computers). I pay all of my taxes. Income taxes and city taxes.
What $ are we and all of the other kollel men getting from the frei? I live in a chareidi community. I would estimate that 99% of the wives work. All Israeli BY girls are trained from birth that they will work to support their husbands in learning.
The only ones that don’t are the chutznikim who have parents who support them.
No, I don’t have my own economy. I live and work as a contributing member of the Israeli society. My husband learns all day and is not out drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes, and I sacrifice so that he can do that.
How dare you go making statements putting down an entire community based on totally inaccurate information?
Anyone who wants to come and check my bank accounts, is welcome to. I have nothing to hide.
But find out the facts before you talk. I have to be honest, your attitudes are offensive and just plain ignorant.
1. I had IBS that was B”H cured by taking meds prescribed by a gastro in E”Y – no psychologists or psychiatrists necessary. Not EVERYTHING is pychological.
2. The OP seems to think there is a psychological component, but a person does not get blood in stool from psych. problems. A gastro should be doing testing to rule out anything serious. Do not let any doctor tell you that you are fine and take tylenol when you have blood in your stool.
3. For a really basic suggestion: Did you try going off of milk? Some people have a harder time with the milk in E”Y or develop lactose intolerance suddenly. It took me a full 2 weeks offof milk to feel ok again, when I became lactose intolerant.
Refuah Shleimah.
anon1m0us – A little silly to be comparing Touro with Ivy leagues, even if Did anyone think Touro was an Ivy league school?
Also, I imagine that someone looking into Touro is doing so because it is Jewish and that men and women are separate. Why is everyone here comparing it to secular colleges? Someone going to Touro is making that choice, even though it may not be as academically or financially “worthwhile”, because they feel that they gain something that is not available elsewhere – the environment.
correct, I was referring to hapences’s comment about daughters, etc. (This time I got the “name” right.)
And I have no idea who hapence’s Rav is and I was not trying to imply anything about him or his daughters and granddaughters. I was just making a point that what someone’s progeny wear or don’t wear should not be taken to mean that that Rav approves or not. Of course, if you asked outright, that is something different. I don’t think anyone believes that denim is assur in halacha, it is just “not done” in some communities. That is what the original post was about.
notasheep – I was certainly not trying to insult your intelligence. If you think I was following exactly who posted what on these two pages, you are wrong. And I don’t even know what I said about Rav Falk being from Gateshead that could be insulting. I am agreeing with you that there is a certain standard there that everyone adheres to, which is what I assume he is basing his opinions on. (I have actually never been there, but it sounds like a pretty frum place.)
happenstance – KW never said she was trying to be specific. You keep trying to force her to be, so that you can nail her on something.
She is correct. There is a spirit of the law here. A woman has to be careful to be within the letter of the law and also to be within the spirit of the law.
SJSinNYC – It is hard to believe that an Orthodox rabbi claims that collarbones are not one of the things that the halacha dictates has to be covered.
In terms of this whole discussion about Rabbi Falk’s Oz V’hadar Levusha – Rabbi Falk speaks about cultural norms in most yeshivish/kollel-type communities. I don’t think he is addressing what is culturally accepted in other types of communities. His p’sakim that refer to what is “accepted” should probably be taken in that context. It is difficult for people who do not come from those types of communities to relate to things he has sensitivities to. Also, he does make distinctions throughout the book between those things that are Shulchan Aruch and those that have to do with being “refined”.
And those who discussed Rabbis whose daughters/granddaughters don’t do certain things – there are many instances where a Rav can believe that something is halacha, and yet their daughters and granddaughters do not conform. That does not indicate that the Rav “holds” that way, it indicates that the girls involved may have a hard time with it.
And back to the original point of this thread the OP was asking what is wrong with denim and very long skirts – when I said “regal”, I meant the same thing as “refined” or “bas melech” or however you want to put it. We don’t always need to be formal, but we don’t want to look like we are basically walking around in our “house clothes”. (Please don’t start on ladies walking outside in housecoats or robes – I don’t personally think that is acceptable either.) The fact that people walk around that way nowadays doesn’t make it recommended.
Both are considered a more “sporty” and less refined look. They are trying to encourage a “regal” look – something more formal.
It is not that there is something that is halachically wrong.
You are correct, I didn’t read the post thoroughly enough.
In my completely humble opinion, there is nothing wrong with a pinch or pat on the cheek or a pat on the shoulder. Anything else is probably too much nowadays. But it is sad.
You think they can make a rule allowing non-violent cheek-pinching only?
I have been a “lurker” forever,and I don’t know why this silly conversation bothered me enough to actually register…
Do you realize that you are not actually having a conversation? You are talking AT each other?
zahavasdad and WIY – no one here is trying to say that anyone should be allowed to abuse children! They are saying that IF YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO TAKE SICK PEOPLE INTO ACCOUNT, then it would be a positive, healthy thing for people to be able to show APPROPRIATE affection to a small child.
That IN A WORLD WHERE PEOPLE BEHAVE AS THEY SHOULD, it would benefit children to be hugged or have their cheek pinched by their teacher.
Iced is not talking about the people who take advantage of that right and of children’s innocence to do terrible things.
By your line of reason, even a child’s parents should not be allowed to hug them, because some people abuse that right.
No one here was advocating abusing children. Iced was lamenting the fact that the world has deteriorated to a point where in order to protect our children, laws and rules have been instated.
As a result, some perfectly innocent expressions of love for our children are lost. And our kids lose out on some potential character-building from that.