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Rebbe Dovid writes
The fact that she wants me to change my Rabbi for her shows that she doesn’t value Daat Torah. Don’t you think so?
In his initial post he says that he is “discusted” (sic) by her attitude towards this Rabbi whereas in a previous sentence he calls her amazing.
Tell me something Rebbe Dovid
Do all the parents get along?
Does your family like this girl?
This individual is not telling you not to seek his counsel. For whatever reason, she is not comfortable with this individual and you cannot understand that and this issue is a dealbreaker??
After all, how often will there be a need to consult with this Rabbi?
For important issues which affect the both of you, you do not think that the relationship is worth finding someone acceptable to both of you?
That is the true essence of marriage Rebbe Dovid. Compromise.
You have a lot of growing up to do before you walk under the chuppah my friend.
I am not a shrink but I think you have control issues that need to be addressed.
Be happy that you have an intelligent articulate individual who is letting you know what is bothering her up front and not letting it simmer and boil over after the wedding.
Your extreme comments are both revealing and troubling.
danish123
You have expressed yourself in a quite articulate manner and I (late 40’s male)) truly believe you are correct on many points.
Most medical people will confirm that teenage males with their raging hormones constantly have thoughts of the opposite gender. It is normal. The Torah in its infinite wisdom advises to focus on learning which will divert the individual away from further thinking or even acting on those thoughts. It also discourages unnecessary contact with the opposite gender. This advice is valid for the balance of the individual’s life.
For those learning Daf Yomi, earlier in Eruvin, the Gemara relates an anecdote where Bruria (wife of R” Meir) berated someone for speaking one extra word to a woman. It is interesting to note that Bruria was so confident of her ability to resist temptation that she allowed herself to be put to the test. She failed and was so distraught that she committed suicide. The Chazal were smarter from all of us when they advise “Ein apotropus leraayos” – there is no viable defense to forbidden relationships.
However, like everything else in life balance is the key. If someone is visiting a friend on Shabbos there is nothing wrong in saying good Shabbos to his friend’s sister. It is only common courtesy.
Many of the problems our youth face today is the ever increasing amount of issurim constantly being issued and the ever increasing amount of hefkeirus one encounters on the street. It creates enormous pressure on top of just trying to be a kid growing up.
I is interesting to note the Gemara which relates how on the 15th of Av, unmarried girls would all dress in the same way and actually address the young unmarried men in Yerushalayim to attract their attention. This is not contradictory at all. It just shows that our holy Torah knows how we think better than we do. It also knows when it is the right time to start interacting with the opposite gender for the purposes of marriage.
Please do not place all boys in the category of being boors. I know so many fine young men that come in so many different categories, be they Yeshivish, YU or Chassidish. They are all yirei shomayim and are all ovdei Hashem in their own way. I also know many boys who are going down a path which will not have a good ending. A smart girl will quickly discern who is real or not.
Be very careful about information you receive about individuals when you start dating. Unfortunately, there are many people out there who do not fargin and will give false information either to hide something or portray a person in a certain light when they are far from that description.
Have an open mind, know what kind of person you want to spend the next 100 years with and most important daven to Hashem so you should meet your bashert in a timely fashion.
Moi Aussi
You are correct. My error. I meant to say conception. Thanks for the correction
Torah613Torah
I did address the main point of this thread and at this point I will paull back and allow you and Popa to carry on your comedy routine on a very serious subject.
Torah613Torah
It has been mentioned in previous threads that for the most part a girl’s choices are at their maximum when she first starts dating whereas a boy’s choices do not.
Your main point that the same amount of males and females might be of the same age is not what drives the shidduch process.
It is more complex than that.
Just daven to Hashem that you meet your bashert at the right time and that you make the right decision.
To Torah613Torah
What does the comparison of a wife to bread have to do with a bakery?
You can go out and buy flour and bake as much bread as you want. There were no bakeries in Yisro’s time
To pops
You have totally missed my point with your condescending and sarcastic comment.
The so called shidduch crisis is self created.
Does anyone out there ever hear if a shidduch crisis situation existed in pre war Europe?
What about the Sephardic community?
The analogy ti a bakery to the shidduch scene is about as logical as to the self entitlement many of these mediocre learning boys who have no business being in kollel feel is their right.
Just spend some time in pizza shops in Lakewood on a typical weekday for empirical proof.
We are our own worst enemies.
To Midwood Yid
Before you go out on that all important date, go the kever of one of the many holy Tzaddikim buried in The New York area and be mispallel that you should be zocheh to a life of health and happiness and that she should be the right zivig that was ordained for you 40 days prior to your birth.
If she says yes respect her the rest of your days on this earth as you do now.
rebdoniel
“There is a great deal of bias against heavier people, and the negative perceptions further a lack of maturity on the issue.”
You do not say how overweight you were and I really hope you have made efforts to lose weight.
All I would say that there is a huge difference of being say 15 lbs overweight as opposed to anything over 30lbs. with the latter being a serious state that another party might recognize as being a serious health hazard.
So sad that people have this pre conceived notion of the perfect mate. There are so many fantastic girls out there who can stand to lose a few pounds but have sterling characters.
No question that there has to be physical attraction but this is way beyond normal what is going on. I see so many of my daughter’s friends subsisting on a starvation diet in order to be nice and slim.
Why is it OK for a boy to have a few extra pounds?
We live in such a chitzoynius age and I do not see it improving. We are all ensnared by what the media portrays as attractive and we buy into this sheker.
As mentioned above, the gemara is establishing a basis of measure independent of the physical fact that the circumference is more than 3. Once established, this will be the unit of measure to be used when questions of this nature need resolution. The Torah is the source of nature itself and supersedes facts as we know them.
It is interesting to note that in the following few blatt much discussion revolves as to whether 2.9 or 3 tefachim is lavud. This is the basis of a whole machlokes.
Assuming an amah is say 22 inches, 1 tefach will be 1/6 of that or 3.67 inches. 1/10 of that is .37 of an inch and this forms the basis of many blatt of machlokes and no one questions as to whether this difference in actual fact will prevent a goat from slipping under a gap.
The Torah tells us when to make these minute distinctions and when not to.
Do not panic, I will not embark on a whole discussion on the Brisker shiurim by the seder for tonight.
One shiur is important to remember.
There is no limit on how much to love, honour, and respect your spouse and children.
Chag kosher and someach to all of Klall Yisroel and may we be zocheh to see the end of this long and terrible golus so that Eliyahu Hanavi will finally come and take the Yidden out of golus and the golus out of the Yidden.
Some people really have to get a life.
cut out any products with sugar, white rice and any refined grains. They are empty calories and will not fill you for any period of time. There is a theory to cut out wheat completely
Do not know your age but if you are over 45 most likely your metabolism slowing down and you have to change your eating and behavioral patterns.Many people will start gaining weight even if they do not change their eating habits.
What is the inyan of davening vasikin on Purim (besides the same inyan that applies every day of the year)?
Although any day you daven vasikin is an eis ratzon it is especially auspicious Purim morning.
Simchas Purim to all fellow Yidden and may we all daven and be granted health, parnassah, nachas from children, and ultimately the end of this terrible golus that is slowly eating away at our neshamos. Every generation further from Har Sinai is lower than the previous one and is the Chazal that underscores this fact and we all see it in our own lives if we really pay attention.
One of the Chassidic Rebbes once asked that if the Shaarei Demaos (Gates of Tears) are never closed why are the gates necessary at all?
He cleverly responded that they do indeed act as a barrier for silly supplications that a person may invoke thinking that request is important when it truly is not.
Although seemingly inherently obvious, we do need to focus and daven for what is truly needed.
Hug and compliment your spouse and kids and help Hashem enter our lives.
Montreal has a very small yeshivish community. My friend who lives tells me that the community is very hospitable but very insular in the Yeshiva area.
There is only one Yeshivah there which has gone through a bitter era in terms of politics or a very Hungarian type of Yeshivah (Chassam Sofer type).
It is FREEZING there in the winter and once outside the community it is very difficult to get anything done unless you speak French.
Tell your friend to move to Detroit
Sorry.
Second to last sentence should read:
The notion that a married individual can both work and learn has become practically a heretical belief as to how mainstream Judaism is to be practiced.
I will repeat here what I commented on another post the other day,
The concept of someone spending all their day in yeshiva (hopefully) learning to the exclusion of any effort of making a living and supporting a family was basically non existent until about 40 years ago. The fact that the burden of support was placed on the girl’s father head was another new phenomenon. In Europe only the outstanding individuals who were potential community leaders were privileged to this arrangement.
What has this system produced over the last number of years for a number of people.
Fathers in law in debt over their head.
Working wives working full time and taking care of their children as well while their spouses spend their days in the coffeerooms..
Entire communities subsisting on every government program they can play the system for.
The attitude that work is beneath the man’s station and is to be looked down upon.
This is what we have come to.
The notion that a married individual can both work and learn has become a belief as to how mainstream Judaism is to be practiced.
No question that many men do devote many hours a day to their studies but overall there is definitely something that just does not quite pass the smell test.
I think a simple way to get a true perspective as to how react to this latest lunacy in the so called Chareidi world who supposedly speak for Orthodox Judaism ( wish I would know who ordained them with this honor) is to simply think as to how the giants of recent previous generations would have reacted.
Picture the Chasam Sofer, Rabbi Akive Eiger, the GRA, the Malbim, to name a few. The Satmr Rewbbe Z”L ( the one and only true Satmar Rebbe) would regularly go through the beis hamedrash of Satmar and advise anyone over 20 to go out and work.
You would not need Choshen Mishpat. You would only need 3 chalakim to the Shulchan Aruch. Nobody would be involved in commercial affairs.
Just mind boggling as to how we have allowed lunatics to hijack our beautiful mesorah and twist and corrupt it to the point where our forefathers would not recognize how we conduct our lives.
Greatest loss is for our children to witness this stupidity.
to 147
FYI. This is not a Catholic based web site. The Torah allows divorce. The problem is that too many people are so absorbed in themselves and their own issues that they forget that they even have a spouse for all intent and purposes. We live today in a highly stressed environment which easily triggers these many negative behavioral traits. Might likely be financial pressures which is root cause here.
No question, however, that the decision this individual thinks they have to address now should be made only having consulted the best therapists and Rabbonim. May Hashem guide them and us all in all our decisions.
contact quality photo 845 596 2862. Shmuel is great
They look at your face and get as much as they can figure you can be taken for a ride.
Try livedaf.net from the Toronto kollel. It moves at a quick pace and the maggid shiur is very good.
Hatzlacha rabbah.
Many of the comments here are well thought out and I am wondering if some of theses posters are not therapists themselves. From a laymen’s perspective all I can say is just like there are certain Rabbonim who know the “fifth” cheilik so too there are therapists that are good for certain situations and not for others. Sometimes the chemistry does not mix no matter how competent the individual.
It all starts with the level of motivation by the individuals to try and resolve their particular issues. The therapist to a large extent is a referee to ensure that the issues are addressed in a fair and open fashion which will allow the therapist to suggest possible options to the parties involved.
Many posters have correctly pointed out that the situation is not helped by trying to give mussar. The credibility of the therapist is based on their being impartial and not assigning blame.
I would think that not too many Rabbonim are equipped to deal with these issues and the smart ones readily acknowledge that fact.
My final observation is a personal one. In our parents and grandparents generation very few people went to therapists. It obviously does not mean that all marriages were great. Far from it. For the most part though, the previous generation had a certain amount of maturity and respect for their spouses that one does not see today. It is more of a “me” generation and many people either from immaturity or stubbornness are not willing to make the sacrifices that are necessary for a smooth marriage. The alternative is the “living h_ll” marriages we so often hear about.It is a reflection of the society we live in and the values that have crept into our communities. Prime example is the divorce rate in The Chassidishe communities. From being non existent 25 years ago it is becoming a very common event.
My humble suggestion would be for all chosson and kallahs to take mandatory pre marital counselling in interpersonal relations and financial budgeting as a bare minimum. It should be given the same importance as going through the Dor Yeshurun procedure. It will avoid many of the issues that crop up later.
matzav.com has the whole program from beginning to end
Rabbi Frand, Rabbi Lau and The Tzanzer Rebbe literally seized my neshama and elevated it onto heights that gave me an inkling of how precious every Yid is to HKB”H.
Why should there be a problem dating more than 1 person a time? You simply want to maximize your options to find your bashert.I would only not recommend it for more than 3 dates because by that time one should have logically chosen which individual has the better “fit” on their wish list.Multiple dating beyond that point will create serious confusion and reflects poor maturity. It shows that one is always looking for someone “better” to come along. A serious level headed person has to be able to decide to fish or cut bait by the third date.
Choppy
Some food for thought.
Who is Daas Torah today?
Would you reject the Mizrachi rabbonim who do work within the system and have Yeshivahs where the boys do go to the army?
I am not a Mizrachi person but I do admire what they do.
Does that make me an apikorus?
In my mind, in today’s fractured environment Daas Torah is your local Rov who you respect and go to for day to day issues.
In times gone past when there was a central rabbinic authority within a community they were Daas Torah and they were the voice for issues great and small.Not so in today’s world.
To Lemony Snicket
Over the years I have seen what I thought to be the most incompatible couple have a happy and vice versa as well.
This is the most important decision you will make in your life and you should give yourself enough time to make an unhurried and thought out decision.
You have to realistically put down on paper in order of priority what you consider important in a spouse. Whether that list you produce should be the list to use is not the point here.
Assuming you know what is really important in a spouse you can then determine how the other person measures based on your priorities. If she scores on most of them then go for it.
Do you look forward to seeing and speaking to her or do you feel that it is a mechanical process you are going through?
You are silent as to how the other person behaves towards you. Does she exhibit excitement when you go out together? Don’t forget. She is also keeping a cheshban as well.
You should daven for siyattah dishmaya and may HKB”H give you chonein daas to make the right decision.
One thing I can can guarantee. Do not make your decision primarily on physical looks. Looks are very important but there are some very beautiful people out there who are not necessarily the best looking people.
I have seen some very good looking divorced men and women.
Remember one thing.The best shidduch is where each person thinks they are getting the better deal.
popa
“It is always the woman’s fault. Always.”
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were in good humor when you posted that comment.
Everyone knows situations where either the husband or the wife was the one that bears prime responsibility when a marriage failed.
Each case is separate and a statement like that is totally without merit
awarenessvaad
Your logic is compelling but I think is not quite accurate as many other people have commented here. However, I do agree that due to the many challenges many people face there are many couples out there who have trouble coming to terms with reality.
It is not that these people are selfish or uncaring it is just the stress of living with the constant fires that they are putting out, mostly of a financial nature.
Young people in the Yeshivish world who want to live a kollel life without depriving themselves of life’s comforts will have stress unless their parents are wealthy.
Even working people have much financial with the unending tuition, bills, etc etc.
Solution?
Effective communication and common purpose.
And mutual respect.
Any missing element from this three legged stool and you are facing a pretty unhappy journey through life.
I am probably on quite solid ground when I state that there isn’t a person who hasn’t had his own child, a neighbour’s child or that of a close relative go OTD.
I have always wondered at the phenomenon of having more baalei teshuvah than ever today while at the same time we are experiencing more FFB kids going OTD than ever before.
What gives?
I am not involved in chinuch but I do get the feeling that there is a major disconnect today between talmidim and their Rebbeim. Most Yeshivas do not have the resources to deal with non conforming kids and many take the easy way out by expelling them. Some take the equally non productive path of actually letting a non learning child stay as long as he is not being a negative influence on the other kids.
Neither option is helping the child.
I would think that more children today with their shorter attention spans cannot spend hours and hours in a Beis Medrash as their fathers did.
Piling on chumros after chumros preventing healthy physical and emotional outlets just give the child the feeling that he is in jail and will take the first opportunity to escape which many do.
I realize this is a very simplistic summary but the thrust is that we cannot use tactics from previous generations to deal with today’s problems. They will not work for kids today who are tech savvy and know what the world is all about.
It is not easy being a young frum child today.
To Patri
Your use of the terms “knockout” and “ripoff” are very disturbing and call into question the true motivation for your giving a dvar torah. Some obvious ones come to mind but I believe you “get the drift”(using your parlance) of what I am trying to impart to you.
Since you do not know where to start I humbly suggest suggest you start with Messilas Yeshorim ona daily basis for an hour for 3 weeks and I guarantee you that you will not be facing this quandry at the end of this time period.
There is also the possibility that your whole post was a joke to begin with and that your are stam trying to generate loshon hora. I recommend the same suggestion for that possibilty as well.
Hatzlacha Rabbah
Truly unbelievable the time and energy being spent on this topic.
At this point it would serve everyone much better to get some sleep in order to help their wives as much as possible to prepare for Yom Tov. I think that will have a better toeles than slinging shots back and forth.
To popa bar abba
I am sure you are a fine and decent human being and try to keep the Torah to the best of your ability.
I am also sure that you would not disagree with me that we both wish that people would focus on being as diligent in keeping the halachos of lashon hara, financial honesty and not speking during davening as they are in observing this once a year event.
If you will respond by asking
“What does one have to do with the other?”
would require me to suggest that you think a little deeper about the point(s) I am trying to get across.
Not quite sure why you are raising this issue long after Purim but suffice it to say that getting blind drunk on Purim is not what the Chachomim had in mind.
Wonder what justifies excessive drinking at a kiddish the balance of the year.
Alcohol is a problem that has become quite prevalent within the community. Was at a shalom zachor a few weeks ago in Flatbush where I observed a 17 year old boy consume 5 bottles of beer and his father did not do a thing.
Marriage requires constant effort and work by both parties. The expectations are different today than they might have been in our parents and grandparents times. What is of utmost importance is to treat your spouse with respect and not to take each other for granted.
Simple as it sounds its adherence affects every waking moment of the day.
All problems usually start from failure to respect these tenets.
This is not to say that sometimes people are genuinely non compatible and should seek counselling. Divorce should be a last resort and not a quick exit strategy as it is today.
For the most part, most people are not better off after a divorce unless there was physical or emotional abuse taking place.
I strongly believe that just as there are chosson and kallah classes, there shiuld be pre marital classes required for all engaged couples be they Litvish Chassidish YU type etc. We are all subject to the same knee jerk human behavior that has to be controlled when one gets married.
PS. They once asked this couple who were married 40 years as to whether either one ever contemplated divorce. The husband responded by saying : Never divorce but quite often murder 🙂
PloniAlmoni4: How can mamzeirim marry out-of-towners??
As Wolf has pointed out they cannot. I am just seeking clarification if one is obligated to disclose this knowledge if one is contacted about the family in question re: a shidduch or is one being over Lifnei Iver or not.
There were very serious shailos after the war about granting a woman the right to remarry in the absence of firm proof that the husband had died.
Unfortunately, there were cases where the first husband reappeared a number of years later. The children of the 2nd husband are 100% mamzeirim. i know of such a case and this family had to marry off all their kids to out of towners. The local community did not publicize this fact but they definitely did not marry any of their children to this family. Whether or not this fact had to be disclosed voluntarily in a potential shidduch has always been something I never got a clear answer to.
To WIY
I do not know who you are but I want you to know that your post struck a chord within me that shook me to he core.
This morning after leaving shul the thought somehow entered my head that I had just spent the last 35 minutes being a mechanical robot.
Upon learning of the terrible news a short while later, it got me further thinking as to how better reconnect to Hashem.
What is more distressing is the fact that Chodesh Tishrei is barely over and I find myself in this position.
Your post gave me clear direction to which I offer my humble gratitude.
Closer to home:
A salting board for chickens
Sugar cubes
When nothing was kosher except for a few staple products
When kids were happier with less
When we were separate and distinct and not so comfortable with non- Jews
When more than a few people (including many women)shed rivers of tears during Yomim Naraim davening and were not focused on how soon davening would end
When divorce was practically unheard of
When no one questioned the authority of Rabbonim
When people were more focused on ehrlichkeit and not frumkeit
zahavasdad
You are only making my comments stronger
I am personally do not know what percentage of the BP/Flatbush community utilize food stamps,Section 8, welfare, WIC, etc. but it is substantial and I am not referring to the system abusers.
Alot of people barely make it from week to week.
We definitely are at the stage where new communities will be established beyond the NYC metropolitan area.
Just a question of time