Plainploni

@Bubbyo

Great, now for step two. Since betten does not mean tefila, then what was the problem the Lubavitcher Rebbe was trying to answer by saying his father-in-law was “Atzmuso uMahuso araingeshtelt in a guf?” (From the context this is clearly particular to him or Tzadikim generally not all Jews, so don’t say he was referring to the fact that every Jew has a chelek eloka mimaal.)

Reading through the postings here everyone seems to be on a feedback loop. I think there are a lot of assumptions each side has that are making it difficult to understand one another. I hope this will help breakthrough to help communicate better.

For Everyone:
1. The question the OP asked is getting lost in all the details, and still hasn’t been CLEARLY addressed.

2. We all agree to the following:
A) You cannot pray to a person.
B) You can ask another person to pray for your benefit, or ask for a Bracha.
C) There are views which are incorrect, but still do not rise to the level of kefirah or avodah zara.
D) If someone is committing avodah zara that fact is unchanged by how much good they do otherwise, or how popular they are.

3. The OP’s Question can be broken down into the following issues:
A) Is “betten” a Rebbe the same as praying to a Rebbe?
B) If not, what problem was the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teirutz of “Atzmuso uMahuso etc.,” meant to answer? Either betten is not tefilah, therefore you can bett anything and there is no problem of avodah zara (maybe just tipshus) and his teirutz is unnecessary, or it is tefilah and his answer is explaining why while betten a normal person WOULD be avodah zara, betten a Tzadik is not.
C) If you say that you cannot bett a normal person, but can bett a Tzadik, this is a tremendous chiddush. It essentially amounts to a heiter, or at the very least a kulah, in avodah zara. Lubavitchers, please imagine if another Rov wrote a teshuva saying that while praying to trees is avodah zara, praying to Oak trees is not. You would never accept this as a valid view without an OVERWHELMING amount of evidence from Chazal and other Poskim. This is exactly analogous what this view (i.e. you cannot bett people, but Tzadikim are an exception) is claiming, and will never be acceptable to the rest of Klal Yisroel. So what is the alternative way of understanding this Sicha?

For the Lubavitchers:
1. Your understanding of what a Tzadik is, as is stated in the Tanya is not a belief shared by any other contemporary frum Jews. This includes other Chasidim. I saw a few posters makes statements to the effect that other Chasidim have a more extreme view of the nature of a Tzadik. This is false. Maybe it was true in the past, but it certainly isn’t now (personally I think this was never the case).
2. Your belief that a Tzadik is for all practical purposes omniscient makes things extremely complicated, especially when it comes to how you account for views of other Tzadikim that are in conflict with your Rebbe.
3. Your belief that a Tzadik is omniscient similarly seems to lead you to accept his views without explanation. Which makes sense. Just keep in mind that no one else thinks this way. To outsiders this tendency feels like a rejection of fundamental ideals in the Gemara such as Lo BaShomayim Hi, or that Nevua has ended, etc. For everyone else, unless you are a Navi you need to explain yourself, make your case no matter how great a Tzadik or Talmud Chocham you are.
4. There is no such thing as a “Baal Nigleh.” There is one Torah. Learning Gemara is not some specialized field, it is required, period. The Torah al pi Sod is another layer of understand not a separate text, and you know this. If you can’t understand the Gemara in pshat, then you really have no business making statements about pnimius HaTorah, you can’t brush it away like its a sefer from a rival kreis.
5. While the rest of frum Yidden have made peace with one another, you stand alone. No one else calls Litvaks misnagdim, no Litvaks have any serious problem with other Chasidim, and almost no other Chasidim have a problem with each other. Before you get defensive about this, lets talk about the pshat that Chabad has when singing Ashreinu Ma Tov Chelkeinu. Think about this for a moment before assuming everyone is out to get you.

For the non-Lubavitchers:
1. If you are a Litvak there is a huge difference in how Chasidim see things based on the fact that their notion of Hashgacha Protis is far more encompassing than ours (see Chazon Ish, Emunah UBitachon). There are many nafka minas of this difference. The most important for our purposes being how you understand what receiving a bracha from a Tzadik accomplishes, or for that matter bokoshos in general. There is no point in arguing about the merits of either view in this forum, so for arguments sake you should take their view and assume that literally “HaKol Biydei Shomayim Chutz MiYiras Shomayim.”
2. For a Lubavitcher to say the Rebbe was wrong is the equivalent of saying they don’t believe in Judaism. They will never say this, and we shouldn’t expect them to. So, even though to me “Atzmuso uMahuso araingeshtelt in a guf” is prima facie avodah zara (as Rav Shach said), the most you can reasonably expect for a Lubavitcher is to take an extremely dochak view of what that statement means. By pushing against their (analytically questionable) interpretation, you are effectively pushing them further towards avodah zara, which no one wants. The only way this will be resolved is if they can say their Rebbe was correct, but he meant something else, so let them.
3. Despite the fact that Lubavitchers are often quite hostile to other frum Jews, this does not mean that they aren’t similarly mistreated. It doesn’t matter who is at fault, or who started it. No matter what we are all Yidden, HKB”H commanded us to love one another. Even in the worst case scenario they are certainly Tinokos Shenishba (Chazon Ish Y”D Siman 2). Their defensiveness does not absolve us from basic derech eretz, let alone chiyuvim bein adam l’chaveiro.

I hope this helps move the conversation to something clearer and more productive.