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Qwerty, thanks for sticking up for me but I want to clarify that menachem shmei and arso linitially laughed at me for thinking that I thought the Rif from the 11th century and the rif from the iyin yaacov was the same person which was not the case. That gave them more ammunition to ridicule me that I “didn’t understand how to learn”… according to them that is… I disagree with their interpretations of the pesukim and meforshim regardless of their smug attitudes. Not that I’m saying I’m a talmud chuchem, but those two clowns certainly are not.
Arso, you seem very excited to constantly be busy that I’m a woman and I’m not a talmud chuchem, i should ask a talmud chuchem, i dont know how to learn, and you are a man and you went to yeshiva… again and again. It seems like you have an inferiority complex that makes you feel good if you repeat something you think will “put the other person in their place…”
Anyway, talking about talmidei chachumim, I’ve heard different shuirim on Rashi on Yaacov lo meis by talmidei chachmim and they gave different explanations, not that his body is alive but that a part of his soul lives dormant in his body, that he lives through his descendants and other explanations. So perhaps you will pasken that those who gave these shuirim are amei haratzim and apikorsim c”v because they said that “not that it means that Yaacov is physically alive” but that it means something else?
Perhaps you should be the one asking talmidei chachumim if Yaacov was buried alive.
Menachem Shmei has resorted to lying about me about me not believing in Chazal c”v. I find that hysterical because it’s so far from the truth.
1. I have said that Chazal do not argue on the pesukim, they expand and explain what the pesukim mean but they do not ever contradict the Torah Shebischav. The Torah Shebischsav is the ultimate Truth, so is Torah Shebal Peh the ultimate truth.
2. I have said that many people and groups tried/try to use Torah sources to “prove” that their false ideology is true by taking pesukim or Chazals or meforshim out of context which they use to try to “prove” that those out of context verses “prove” that their foreign ideologies are the “truth”.
And I can prove that what I said is the truth because it’s not me who believes that a human being rebbe runs the world, that you can pray to him, that he’s everywhere, that he never made/makes mistakes…it’s Menachem Shmei who believes that and that is because he doesn’t learn to understand the Torah, he tries to use the Torah to “prove” his idolatrous beliefs are based on Torah sources.
BTW, my reference to Safaria is not my endorsement of them. I have read somewhere that they mistranslated a word with a woke translation. I don’t remember what the word is and I haven’t come across it.
Arso, I dont care that you learnt in yeshiva. There are many men who learnt in yeshiva and don’t know how to learn. You are not automatically right just because you are a male, sorry.
You claim “Indeed being male does not give me or anyone else an excuse to ignore an explicit possuk, but it does mean that as a male I, and probably the majority of others on this thread, have had a yeshivah background and know that you can’t cite a possuk against Rashi at any time and certainly not when Rashi is explaining the gemoro!” Why would you cite a posuk against Rashi? You indeed dont do that. You cite a posuk to try to get someone else to see that his misinterpretations of Rashi is wrong. Like in this case where Yaacov lo meis. Rashi never contradicts posukim and therefore when you try to dispute a meforeshe posuk (but yet you use pesukim when you want to “prove” that you are right) because you think that Rashi disputes it, you are learning it wrong. Rashi EXPLAINS the posuk, he does so by commenting on the wording of that particular posuk. When Rashi is talking about why WHEN IT SAYS WHEN YAACOV EXPIRED IT DOESNT SAY THAT HE DIED he is talking about that particular posuk not the others where it does say that Yaacov died. And therefore, when Rashi says Yaacov lo mes, it does not mean that he was buried alive! You have to learn within context!
YOU are asking a good question as you write “Furthermore, you should have asked a much stronger question, but not on us, on Rabi Yochanan. How can he say יעקב אבינו לא מת when the possuk you cited seems to say that he did? Moreover, why did Rav Nachman object to the statement only on the grounds that Yaakov was mourned, embalmed and buried? Shouldn’t he have objected on the grounds of the possuk that you keep on citing?” It is not I who is asking this question because I know that meforshim know the Torah through and through and they knew whatever it says in Parshes Veyachi regarding Yaacov’s death and NO MEFOIRESH CONTRADICTS PESUKIM IN THE TORAH, they EXPOUND on the Torah. If Tanach, Chazal and meforshim are learnt within context you do not arrive at the conclusion that Rashi and Rav Yitchok thought that Yaacov was buried alive. To arrive to that conclusion means that you learnt it out of context or to try to use Torah as “proof” one’s own ideology is the truth.
The Torah has 70 faces which may seem to contradict each other if not learnt and understood correctly.
Qwerty, you wrote:
“I spoke to a Rav yesterday and he clarified the position I took last week. As stated Rambam’s approach is to eschew the phantasmagoric. Therefore we are enjoined to look for Hashem in the rational world. This Rabbi added the following, Hashem can and has transcended natural law, however we only say that this happened when we have clear-cut proof to that effect. Therefore if a Rishon said the following, “For Yaakov to be alive after 2000 years plus violates natural law, but I have definite proof that it is factually true then if no other equal authority challenges this we would have to accept it” If however, Rishonim are making ambiguous statements then no, we don’t dismiss Rambam. And, of course, adding to the equation is that Chabad has a Negias in the matter. If they can con people into believing that Yaakov is actually alive it allows them to sell the garbage that the Kofer is also alive. Any way you slice it, the question is closed unless you’re a lying, psychotic Lubavicher”Indeed, ambiguous verses are part of Tanach too. All these thousands of years klal Yiroel knew how to study Torah. But some groups and individuals try to use Torah to give legitimacy to their idolatrous ideology so they’ll ignore when the posuk or chazal say things clearly and misinterpret things that seem ambiguous to “prove” their claims even though their beliefs clearly contradicts the Torah. It is easy to misinterpret things when its taken out of context. Within context it cannot be misinterpreted. Because, for example, when we read the entire parshas vayechi, how Yaacov took his last breath, the brothers of Yosef saw that their father died” etc. you know when the Rashi says Yaacov lo mes that it could mean many things but not that Yaacov is physically alive…but the Lubavitche disregard that it clearly says that Yaacov died because it doesn’t serve their purpose just like Christians will point to a verse out of context and claim that it proves that their religion is true even though every part of their religion, from Yoshke being the messiah to believing that God can be a physical being, their entire religion contradicts the Torah and yet they try to use Tanach as “proof” that their religion is legitimate…
Always Ask, thank you. There were many women who learnt Gemarah, as you point out Bruriah, also the grandmother of the Maharshal, the wife of the Netziv, the wife of Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer and others. I am not saying it is women’s tafkid to to learn Gemarah and i dont encourage my daughters to do so (not that they are inclined to do so in any case), but it should be the worst thing a frum woman does these days… so many frum women are singing and dancing on social media which are public platforms, not dressing tzniusdig, etc being immersed in the goyishe culture and materialism that are of far greater consequences than a woman arguing a bit on the Gemorah.
Menachem shmei and arso thought that I didn’t know the difference from the rif and the rif on iyin yaacov and that made them feel like they won the debate. I clearly said in one of my previous posts which they missed and which I’m too lazy to look up now which number it is, that I do not have a copy of the iyin yaacov on me. I said that because i knew that it’s not in gemarah . What I was looking for in Gemara is if the rif’s (yes, the one from the 11th century) wrote on yaacov lo mes. Maybe my second post where i repeated a request if theres a link to the rif’s commentary on yaacov lo meis or the iyin yaacov’s commentary on yaacov lo mes was confusing and didnt differentiate the two, I don’t know and can’t can’t be bothered to look at it again, but whatever the case it’s irrelevent to the fact that neither Yaacov Avinu nor the Lubavitche rebbe is buried alive.
What is relevant is whether it was the Tzedoikim, the Early Christians who were Jews, or the Christians and Messianic “Jews” today, the Keruim, Shabsi Tzvi and his followers, and all kinds of groups in history who tried/try to prove from Torah sources that their beliefs are true but in reality are contradictory to Toras Moshe M’Sinai, they all veered off from True Path eventually and so will Chabadians who believe that their rebbe runs the world and you can pray to him and all kinds of a”z beliefs.
Sorry, I made a mistake in my last comment to Arso and Menachem Shmei regarding the Rif from the 11th century not commenting on taanis 5b. I meant him not commenting on “Yaacov lo mes” in 5b but he does comment on taanus 5b.
Menachem shmei and arso, I’ve said clearly, I’m not a talmud chochem, I’ve said clearly I’m a woman. So as I’ve said clearly, please link the iyin yaacov to yaacov lo mes from a different source. I’m not taking a source that partners with Chabad as valid. Don’t link it, just point to it if it’s not allowed on the yeshiva world. Safaria has the iyin yaacov and as I’ve said before, I wasn’t able to find it there. So refer the page where it says on Sefaria or anywhere else. I never, ever said it’s not written in at all, I asked for a link because i wanted to see it in context and its not readable on the link Shmei gave.
The fact is that with all the “I’m a woman and can’t learn”, it is Arso who claimed that it says in taanus 13 that yaacov laughed when eisov’s eye fell out. Which was wrong of course and me the not talmud chochem woman pointed you in the right direction where it written, in Sotah 13a. But more importantly, I wasn’t going to take from you an out of context quote just “because you are a male”, I’m not letting you tell me what it says and where it says because it’s false. Just as false as Shmei claiming that “Rashi said Yaacov lo meis literally” is false. Just like shmei claimed that taanis 5b “proves” that Yaacov was buried alive when it clearly says in taanus 5b that Rav Yitchak quoted a posuk from yermiyah , it does not say at all, in any way shape or form, that yaacov was buried alive.
I’m very open with the sources I quote from, where I quote it from. There are two meforshim, the rif and iyin yaacov on the page of menachem’s shmei’s link. I knew very well that the rif on the iyin yaacov was from the 17th century and the rif on the gemarah is the from the 11th century. However, despite your laughter, the rif from the 11th century is ALSO a commentary on the gemerah just not on taanis 5b. Seeing the seperate commentaries of rif and iyin yaacov on the same page the the Gemorah on page of Shmei’s link is what i wanted clarified and read in context, if there were such commentaries exist. And that is one of the reasons, besides that it’s not readable, that I asked for a different source. I still find it interesting, OK downgraded from suspicious, that I was not able to find it anywhere only on a non-readable copy from Shmei’s Chabad-affiliated link.
Just because you two are male does not give you two an excuse to ignore
1. a befereshe posuk in Vayechi that the brothers of Yosef saw that their father died.
2. Misinintrepret CLEAR words from the Chumash, gemarah and other meforshim
3. Ignore the fact that only Hashem runs the world, He is the only one you are allowed to pray to, He is the Only One who is every and never made nor never will make mistakes. To believe all this about the rebbe is idolatry.
Since you two are men and ou know better thna me, the non-talmud chuchem woman, you would think that you’d know better not to make your own misinterpretations on Chumash and Chazal.
I’m not a talmud chuchem but I dutifully checked in the Gemarah, on alhatorah and on safaaria what the rif says on yaacov lo meis. There is nothing on the rif’s commentary on yaacov lo meis, not in the gemarah, not on safaaria not on alhatorah. Neither is there anything on safaaria in the iyin yaacov on yaacov lo meis. I cannot believe that these two sites that bring the entire talmud and rif’s entire commentary and the safaara which bring the entire eyin yaacov would leave out what they say on yaacov lo meis. Therefore, i was a little suspicious of yaacov’s shmei link to a barely readable copy of the gemarah and commentaries. But not being familiar with learning, as I mentioned I am a female, I didn’t say anything about my suspicions. But as yaacov shmei bought it up again I will voice my suspicions on the source he links.
As I said, I couldn’t find anything in the sefer itself, not on safaaria, not on alhatorah what the rif says on that gemarah. This was highly suspicious to me. Neither could I find on safaria in iyin yaacov anything on yaacov lo meis. Again, this is highly suspicious to me. Going back the menachem shmei’s link, it is titled “Ein Ya’akov – Part B-3 (RA-Kidoshin) ” how can it be titled iyin yaacov on “kidoshin” when the copy of the page shows the gemorah “taanis daf h”?
I had my suspicions on who runs the site “Hebrew Books”. Sure enough, when you google “Hebrew Books” you see a major part of their library are Chabad texts. When I googled “hebrew books is a chabad organization” it comes up that they partnered with Chabad…
I’m not going to make any accusations but I will ask why is there the rif and ayin yaacov (barely readable) commentaries on the gemarah taanis 5b on the words “yaacov lo meis” only on a Chabad site?! I asked before and I ask again, if anyone has another, non-Chabad, link to the rif’s and ayin yaacovs commentary on “yaacov lo meis” please link it. Thanks.
Menachem Shmei’s response to my recap of Lubavitche beliefs (and his evasion to answering my direct questions to him on the other thread regarding his beliefs) is a response that dodges what he truly believes in.
If Lubavitche who believe the rebbe is running the world and believe in all other things I mentioned in my recap wouldn’t think deep down that there’s something wrong with those beliefs they’d be open about their believing in the things listed in my recap. On the other hand, if they actually don’t believe in what i wrote in my recap then they’d say that openly and also explain that whatever ive read in Chabad articles written for Lubavitche and videos ive seen by Lubavitche “rabbis” are fringe beliefs, not the mainstream. Instead, Menachem Shmei and the Lubavitche I spoke to on another site do not deny that they believe in these things, they don’t admit it either, they just try to divert attention from directly answering what their beliefs are and instead they try to manipulate Torah sources to make it seem as if the Torah sources support their beliefs, which they themselves can’t admit clearly to the public that they believe in, but the “sources (supposedly) admit it for them” …Very dishonest, but that’s the only way they can claim, at least to themselves, that their “beliefs are legitimate”.
Qwerty that is a very good vort that Chava conversing with the nachash was a mistake. She was probably trying to “clarify” the situation as well. Yes, that is the wrong approach. I do not deny that i always fall into this trap of trying to talk logic with brainwashed people -it doesn’t work. Indeed, I cannot dissuade Menachem Shmei who is now arguing with a b’ferisha pasuk that says clearly that Yaacov died. First he argued that Yaacov wasn’t buried. So I proved it says he was buried. So then he said Yaacov was buried but he’s buried while still alive. Now a bring him a posuk in the Torah which says Yaacov that Yaacov died and he is still arguing with me.
From here on, for me the topic on this thread about “Yaacov lo mes” is closed.
To recap:
The Lubavitche believe that:
1. Their rebbe is physically alive
2. Their rebbe is running the world
3. Their rebbe is everywhere
4. They can pray to their rebbe and he’ll help them
5. Their rebbe never makes mistakes (I wrote it in present tense because they believe he’s still alive and so to this day he doesn’t make mistakes just like he never made mistakes when his physical body was still seen with their physical eyes in 770…Yes, even now when he’s buried alive and can’t move, or maybe he can move in his kever (it’s a very complicated situation, only a Lubavitche can understand it), he is still not making any mistakes.Avodah zora, avodah zora, avodah zora. Shame on those who believe this ideology. Shame on those who don’t speak up against it. Shame on those who know the Lubavitche ideology but still eat food with their hechsher and daven in their shuls.
Yiddish is a beautiful language. I feel connected to my ancestors when I speak the language. It’s a pity that the younger Yiddish-speaking females feel it’s uncool to speak Yiddish in public.
I wish I could understand, speak and write loshen kodesh as fluently as I know Yiddish and English. I would feel connected to my even more ancient ancestors and history. I blame the schools for teaching so many things that are not important instead of teaching us to understand, to write and to speak Loshen Hakodesh fluently.
Yiddish doesn’t butcher loshen kodesh. Yiddish is an evolving language like every single spoken language is. You would not understand the English spoken 1,500 years ago. Yiddish evolved less than many other languages. If I strain myself, I can understand Old High German, the original source of the Yiddish language, even though over the years the pronuciation and dialects evolved. The Hebrew words in the Yiddish language also evolved a bit; it is not butchered.
ויחי קאפיטל נ פסוק ט”ו: וַיִּרְא֤וּ אֲחֵֽי־יוֹסֵף֙ כִּי־מֵ֣ת אֲבִיהֶ֔ם וַיֹּ֣אמְר֔וּ ל֥וּ יִשְׂטְמֵ֖נוּ יוֹסֵ֑ף וְהָשֵׁ֤ב יָשִׁיב֙ לָ֔נוּ אֵ֚ת כׇּל־הָ֣רָעָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר גָּמַ֖לְנוּ אֹתֽוֹ׃
It’s a mefureshe pasuk in the Torah that Yaakov Avinu meis. You cannot argue on a pasuk in the Torah. The Gemara is an agadata.So I’m looking for a link to the Rif’s commentary on Taanos 5b on the subject of Yaacov lo meis, if anyone has it and could lpost the link I’d appreciate it. Menachem shmei posted a link from a photocopied page, it is very unclear, I can’t read the Rif’s commentary on that page.
I have looked in the Gemarah and don’t see the Rif commentary on Yaacov lo meis. I looked on the Sefaria website and shas.alhatorah website and cannot find the Rif’s mefoiresh on Yaacov lo meis…if there is indeed such a mefoiresh.
Arso and menachem shmei quote the ayin yaacov on the rif on yaacov lo meis but I can’t find that anywhere either (I dont have an ayin yaacov sefer) except that it’s referenced in one Chabad article online quoting the the Ri”f on ayin yaacov…
What I have said about the Rif’s commentary on Yaacov lo mes I take back. I have written what I saw in other articles but I cannot find the actual sources.
Qwerty, also, I forgot to mention in my previous post, I’m not a guy…I understand if people think I’m a male because I engage in these kinds of arguments, but I’m not.
Qwerty, you are right about not arguing with Menachem shmei. If he wants believe that that his rebbe deity was buried alive I can’t change that. If he wants to believe that Yaacov is physically alive 3+ millenia after being buried, I can’t change his beliefs.
After doing much research on Yaacov lo mes I see that these words are very central to the Chabadianity ideology. They have many articles written on these three words. They want Yaacov to be buried alive so like this they believe they have a precedent to a tsaddik being buried but supposedly still physically alive to show that their rebbe was buried but is also alive… Like this they have an answer how he can be moshiach…
I posted a link on the other thread but the mods didnt publish it. The link was a video showing Lubavitche giving their dead rebbe an aliyeh, them writing a letter to the Chassidim, thirty years after the rebbe died, that he’s not feeling well so for the next few days he won’t be able to see the oilim, a random chossid giving out l’chaim to the Chassidim as if the rebbe is giving it out, praying to the rebbes chair, etc, etc. B’kitzur, ita cultist behavior revolving around their deity.
Arso, I believe you are a Lubavitche trying to prove Chabad theories because who else would defend Menachem Shmie’s with his own misinterpretations( im using a nice adjective here…)? After combing through Taanis 13a I saw there’s nothing about Yaacov opening his eyes and smiling.
Yaacov opening his eyes is in Sotah 13a. If you read Sotah 13a and you read there the meforshim on how it says Yosef was zoche to bury Yaacov and talking a lot about the topic, you see that Yaacov was actually buried. Yes, it says Yaacov opened his eyes and laughed when Eisov’s eyes fell out, and it’s something we can’t understand without the meforshim, but in no way does it prove that Yaacov was buried physically alive. If you decided that Yaacov was buried alive, with him being able to open and close his eyes and laugh…well, ahem … i have nothing to say accept what i wont say… The Gemorah says that even though their deaths (Yaacov and Eisov’s) were not on the same day same day, they were buried on the same day. If you read through Sotah 13a and reach a conclusion that Yaacov is alive in his kever, well, again, i can’t comment on that.
Menachem shmei, I thought you missed my comment about the ria”f but then I went over the posts and saw that you did see it. There were so many responses to this thread I didn’t notice all of them.
OK, so whoever wants can look in the sefer eyin yaacov on everything that the Rif wrote on taanus 5 2 and yaacov lo meis.
At first I was impressed that you were able to refer to so many meforshim on this Rashi and Gemorah. But then when you mentioned that you don’t see the part of the rif that I mentioned I realized that it’s copy and paste from some “Chabad Torah” . Sure enough I unearthed a Chabad piece bringing all these meforshim and weaving it into their article titled “A King without a Nation”…in fact, there are many Chabad articles with reference to “Yaacov lo mes” and meforshim on it, taken out of context of course, and I see that this belief that Yaacov “being physically alive in his kever” is very central and important in the worship of the rebbe. It’s mamesh like Yosef Hatzadik feared the metzriim will deitify Yaacov, you are now doing to your rebbe all on the account of the words “Yaacov lo meis”…
Always ask, the issue is not about the rebbe being moshiach, the issue is that he has morphed into a deity which the Lubavitche worship.
Menachem Shmei, also yo add to my previous post, you claim that you linked the meforshim. There are no links
Menachem Shmei, with all the posts I can understand that you missed what I said regarding the Rif. The RIF said that he appeared comatose until they got to Eretz Yisroel and at that point he died and was buried. The funny thing is that you bought the RIF to prove that they said that he didn’t die while the RIF definitely said he died.
I did not check the other two meforshim you mentioned as I highly doubt that any of the two would say that he was buried alive. Unfortunately, i see this with everything you mentioned how you see things differently than what the meforshim write. The fact is that Rashi did not argue with the the pesukim and neither will the other meforshim. If I get a chance I will look it up but I can guarantee that nobody said he was buried alive which is what you are essentially saying that he was buried while being physically alive and he is still currently buried alive…
This a nice shuir by Rabbi Gladstein. He says the Alshich says that Yaacov lo mes means that the faculties of neshomah cling to him and lays dormant (not that his body is alive).
What I find fascinating is that Yosef didn’t tell the people that Yaacov didn’t die because then they would turn him into a deity and worship him. This is similar scenerio to the Lubavitche who turned their rebbe into a deity who is supposedly running the world. They have to claim that he is PHYSICALLY alive, otherwise he is just like the other tzaddikim (if you consider him to be a tzaddik) who died and has no major deity-like superpowers.
Menachem Shmei said repeatedly that Yaacov is PHYSICALLY alive so that he can draw a parallel from his rebbe to Yaacov, both supposedly being physically alive. Yosef Hatzaddik, who saw that Yaacov lo meis, was afraid the Mitzrim will worship Yaacov so he told the mitzrim to embalm him (partially) and the reason he could do so was because he knew that his physical body had expired (despite his neshama still clinging to his body in a dormant manner according to the Alshich) But Menachem shmei is still saying that Yaacov is PHYSICALLY ALIVE just so he can “prove” his rebbe can also be physically alive…
Menachem shmei, the Rif and others say the comatose stage was until he was bought Eretz Yisroel and was buried there. As I said before, none of the meforshim claim that Yaacov was buried alive in his kever which is what you are saying.
I dont know if you are lying consciously with your misinterpretations or your a”z beliefs have so corrupted your brain that you are subconsciously automatically interpretating sources to fit your religion’s narrative.
As I said before, neither Rashi nor Chazal (I mistakenly wrote meforshim in my previous post) would want Yaacov to have such a curse as to be buried alive for a few thousand years….no one wants that for their worst enemies…
Yankel berel, Chabadianity is Christianity version 2. They believe in anything that will make their fairytale a reality and from that starting point they misinterpret Torah sources so that it will align with the a”z ideologies.
Menachem shmei, no, none of the meforshim say that Yaacov alive in his kever. A body to be alive needs air, it needs food, it needs water, it needs to do bodily functions.
If there are more people in Chabad who believe what you believe that is absolutely insane. Your belief is like the anceint Egyptians who embalmed and buried their Pharoahs and also buried them with chariots, wax dolls in the shape of women, weapons, etc. because they believed their bodies only partially expired and will soon start living again in the afterlife….shame on you to believe such things.
You are using Torah sources and twisting them to further your a”z ideology just like the Tzedoikim, the Keruim, the Christians, Shabsi Tzvi, and others did to try to “prove” that their ideologies are the truth. At the end of the day Chabad a”z will also lay in the dustbin of history while the truth marches on. But until then, it will pull down with it into shaul tachtis many, many Jewish neshumos H”y.
You cannot argue with posukim in the Torah, period. No mefoiresh does that. The posek says clearly, Yaacov expired, Yaacov was embalmed, Yaacov was buried. End of story. It also says Yaacov did not die and not dying can mean many things. To further your a”z ideology, you claim Yaacov is alive in his kever. That would be a huge tzaar on Yaacov. Would you want your body to be alive in your kever for thousands of years not being able to move? Not even the murdererous Hamas has people in their kever alive for thousands of years. It’s absolutely insane that you would think that Rashi and the meforshim claim that this is happening to Yaacov.
To believe in a”z you need to be slightly insane to believe in the narishkeiten attached to such beliefs.
No wonder so many boys/men dont understand Gemorah well. Are they not taught in cheder/yeshiva how to learn and understand texts? They simply don’t bother to understand pshat. You cannot take part of a Chazal or a posuk and claim to understand what the text means from only part of the verse, or even from one verse. Every word means something, the context means something. Otherwise the words “breishis buru Elokim” can mean the beginning of creation created God, c”v, to you. You cannot USE Tanach and Gemorah like Christians use the verses, pointing to a word or even a verse out of context otherwise you will be able to “prove anything you want the Torah to prove” but you won’t understand p’shat. That’s how the Tzedoikim and all apikorsim “learnt” the posukim without understanding the context.
If you want a posuk, or a Chazal or a Rishon, or any text for that matter, to mean what YOU want it to mean, you can disregard part of what the verse says or you can take it of of context, and then claim that it means what you want it to mean…in that case it is certainly “refreshing” for people like Menachem Shmei to have a “Torah discussion” with one who is willing to disregard part of a verse and the context in which the verse is being discussed.
Understanding texts is learning what the author of the text wanted to convey, not what you want to convey. You cannot claim that the author wants to convey something when you disregard part of what the verse says, you cannot contradict what the author says and then claim that it seems the author contradicts himself, you cannot read the text out of context.
Going back to Rashi on the posuk, if Rashi himself says that the posuk says that Yaacov expired but did not die, it means that Rashi does not contradict that Yaacov expired, period. However, it ALSO means that Rashi says Yaacov did not die. In this case, how can he expire, be embalmed and not die? Rashi doesn’t answer that but if Rashi said he expired but he did not die then we can need to gain understanding on what it means “יעקב לא מת”. If Rashi would’ve say his body was still alive despite his expiring and embalming then you can claim that Rashi said he was physically alive. However, Rashi did not say his body stayed alive. לא מת can mean many things as the MEFORSHIM EXPLAIN and none of them say that Yaacov’s stayed alive! If someone on this thread claims “יעקב לא מת literally”! It is not Rashi who wrote the word “literally”! If an individual declares that Rashi meant it literally and that he meant that his physical body is alive it’s his own conclusion disregarding the context in which the words “yaacov lo mes” was written.
Rashi on Gemorah does not argue with the Gemorah that Yaacov was buried and eulogized. What he says is that they thought he died but he didn’t die. How could Rashi believe that Yaacov EXPIRED (ויגוע), how could he believe that he was BURIED and EULOGIZED and still be PHYSICALLY alive? Well, Rashi doesn’t say that Yaacov was physically alive only that he didn’t die. And for that, as I’ve said above, there are numerous meforshim that say what “he didn’t die” means. Neither Rashi, nor any of the meforshim claim that Yaacov Avinu is still walking on this planet earth to this day in his physical body.
You can only claim that Rashi means that Yaacov is physically alive if you believe that your rebbe is buried 6 feet under yet still walking around here somewhere with his physical body. If someone finds the rebbe please let me know, I’d like to meet with him.
Arso, you wrote: “At any rate, in regards to Rashi on Taanis 5b and Rashi on Chumash, I just don’t see how they contradict.” They don’t contradict at all and no one said that Rashi contradicts himself. I said that Menachem Shmei is saying that Rashi said things which make it seem like Rashi is contradicting himself.
You can believe whatever you want regarding Yaacov Avinu being buried and at the same time PHYSICALLY ALIVE, but Rashi never said he is physically alive, period. Rashi says that the posek says he EXPIRED but not that he died and that’s why he did not die. Not dying can mean the spirit doesnt die, or that he could live through his descendants, it could mean a lot of things according to the different meforshim, but Rashi NEVER said he was physically alive, after him expiring and being buried. That’s your and Menashe Shmei pshat on this Rashi but you can’t prove that Rahi said he was physically alive after his burial.
You write:”Note that this is impossible for us to understand, as he was buried, so what does it mean that he is alive? Furthermore, I believe that embalming involved the removal of a number of inner organs, so how can someone be alive in that manner? Nonetheless, that is what, according to Rashi, the gemoro is saying, and just because we can’t understand it it doesn’t allow us to reject it. So the conclusion for a maamin, and I hope we all fit into that category, is that because Chazal say it, and only because Chazal say it do we accept it”.
Certainly we can’t understand everything, but you can’t say that Chazal said something that they never did.Ujm, you keep repeating the same mantras yourself.
1. Meanwhile you have nothing to remark about the Rambam’s declaration about the Muslims, the violent Muslim rampages on communities that did not accept their religion, the Arab/Muslims have always been violent, period. You have not responded to the fact Muslims committed hundreds of thousands murders of non-Jews in the last decade. Zionism has nothing to do with Arab/Muslim violence, period.
2. I bought you a link of the recording of Rabbi Miller regarding the Israeli elections, he did not say you cant vote, simply said hes leaving up to other Rabbis (many more Rabbis encouraged/encourage voting in the elections than the anti-Zionist rabbis). You wrote what Rabbi Miller and Rabbi Hutner wrote against the atheist Zionist LEADERS, it was not against the Zionist movement. You ignored the fact that Rabbi Hutner learned under Rav Kook so he couldn’t have been an anti-Zionist. I heard Rabbi Miller on a recording say he can’t answer a question about Zionism. I believe when he was younger he was anti-Zionist and in his later years, as the Chareidi communities became more and bigger he did not speak against Zionism.
3. I don’t have pride in the State. I am against the secular “education” the Israeli government provides for Jewish children. I am against the secular government giving citizenship for non-Jews, i was against the Israeli government giving away land “for peace” . I am against a lot of things the Israeli government does. But I’m also against Jews not defending themselves. I support Jews having an army and fighting their enemies.Ujm, so are you going to blame Muslim barbarism and bloodshed throughout all of history, throughout all the centuries, on Zionism? What about the fact that they killed hundreds of thousands of their own people and other minorities in the last decade? Is that also because of Zionism? All of their “holy wars” that they fight between themselves, the decapitation they do on their own people, the violence, etc. they only do that to other Muslims and other minorities but they wouldn’t dare harm Jews? Yes, I’m sure it was Zionism that made the bloodthirsty, violent, pereh adam kidnap and murder Jews…
Potato, no not only Chabad links are allowed. I posted on another thread a link to Rabbi Avigdor Miller’s shmuess on voting in the Israeli elections and the mods posted it.
Ujm, the strawman argument is that the Muslims became barbarians due to Zionism.
Coffee addict, you are so right that only a Lubavitche would argue that Rashi says one thing on the posuk and a different thing on the Gemarah as if Rashi is contradicting himself.
What dishonesty. I cannot take that.
I will not argue directly with Menachem Shmei anymore because when one is so dishonest that they do not seek out the truth only go in circles to defend their position to try to “prove” that the Torah supports his a”z, he is not worth my time anymore. Menachem Shmei is going back and forth, talking out of both sides of the mouth. He says that Rashi says Yaacov was buried (actually Rashi points to the word in the posuk saying that Yaacov expired but that it does not say he died, so he agrees that Yaacov expired) but at the same time Shmei says that Rashi says on the Gemorah that Yaacov is PHYSICALLY alive…never mind that that gemorah AND Rashi clearly state what being alive means and it is not that Yaacov is physically alive…to say that Rashi is saying on one hand that Yaacov was buried and on the other that he’s physically alive?! Rashi is not saying ” יעקב לא מת literally”. Does Rashi say the word “literally”? No, Menachem shmaya is saying that Rashi is saying the word “literally”. He tries to make it seem as if Rashi is arguing with himself and saying a different pshat on the Gemorah than the posuk! What a bezoyin haTorah to twist pesukim and meforshim to try to prove that his a”z worship is the truth! Menachem you can try to twist the Truth but the Torah cannot be twisted, regardless of your attempts.
Menachem Shmei, indeed I agree with you here. The Rambam himself wrote how evil they are. He knows the Muslims better than the anti-Zionists and even us Ashkenazim who always repeat that the Jews had it better under the Muslims. Jews also lived in peace under various Christian rulers too. I for one will not argue anymore that Jews suffered less under the Muslims. We see how they treat people today, they are not different today from the barbarism they displayed throughout history.
For all Lubavitche out there who believe things like the rebbe is running the world and other such idolatrous beliefs, I am posting the 13 principals of faith to remind us all what the Torah teaches us about belief in Hashem.
The 13 Principles of Faith by the Rambam:
Principle 1
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and מנהיג for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created.Principle 2
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, Who was, Who is, and Who is to be.Principle 3
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him].Principle 4
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last.Principle 5
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made.Principle 6
I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.Principle 7
I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moshe Rabbeinu, a”h, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him.Principle 8
I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moshe, a”hPrinciple 9
I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name.Principle 10
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts.Principle 11
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands.Principle 12
I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiach, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will comePrinciple 13
I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity.Ujm, what you wrote about Rabbi Hutner zt”l is copy and paste from somewhere? What is the source? You did not bring me a source where it says that he says what you claim he did. Furthermore, I’m not an expert on Rabbi Hutner’s biography, but he was a talmud of Rabbi Kook zt”l who mentored him for years and I can’t believe that he was so anti-Zionist if his mentor was Rav Kook.
What you write Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt”l said about Zionist leaders I can’t confirm nor deny. However, I see nothing that you wrote where he blamed the Zionist movement on the Holocaust, rather he blamed the atheist Zionist leaders for failing to do more to save Jews from the Holocauset. Thats quite different than blaming the Holocaust on Zionism as a movement. (Same as what you claim Rabbi Hutner said) One thing I can tell you as a fact I that I listened to many of Rabbi Miller’s tapes and on one tape someone asked what he says about the State of Israel. He said he cannot comment on that. The questioner repeated his question but Rabbi Miller said he cannot again that answer on that.
Here’s an audio on what he answered on the topic of voting in the Israeli elections which is a similar to what I heard that he is not poskening on the issue of the state of Israel, he is leaving it to other gedolim.
Qwerty, menachem shmei knows a lot but he knows nothing because he, like others who are intent on proving their worship of their idols is legitimate, misconstrue and lie about what the sources really say. They don’t only lie to others, really they are try to convince themselves that they are not sinning against Hashem with their idolatry. They lie to the extent that they twist themselves into pretzels trying to get the sources to fit their narrative.
Menachem Shmei, now when your argument was proven to be false you are trying to save face and you are really trying hard to make it seem like you are on both sides of the fence on this argument. You say that Rashi says that Yaacov is physically alive and at the same time you say Rashi says that Yaacov was buried…
This is so ridiculous. It is just as ridiculous as believing your dead rebbe is buried in the ohel and yet physically alive at the same time….
You can’t argue with irrational people who make up answers on the go to fit their ideology. Dishonesty is the core of avodah zora, I see this over and over again.
Ujm, there are almost no Zionists today except for the religious right-wingers. The secular are not Zionists anymore. No one said we are not in golus anymore. If someone feels safer Israel, kol hakavod to them, but you feel more secure in the US which is an illusion just like the Jews who felt safe in Germany before the Holocaust.
Bring me a source that Rav aHutner and Rav Avigdor Miller said that the Zionists bear guilt for the Holocauset.
Yes, overall the Muslims were better to the Jews however they still murdered Jews and stole Jewish children, especially girls. They forced tens of thousands of Jews to convert to Islam which so many did because they still served One God under Islam so it was not like converting to Christianity which is pure a”z. If the scores of Jews in the Arabian lands who converted to Islam would refuse to be converted like the Ashkenazim refused to be converted to Christianity, and therefore killed, many more Jews would die at the hands of the Muslims.
It’s utterly ridiculous, and only the due to brainwashing, to think that Zionism is to blame for current Muslim violence. In the last decade, Muslims have killed hundreds of thousands of their own Muslim people, they killed Yazidis, Christians, and other minorities, they have displaced millions of people, but sure, if not for Zionism they wouldn’t hurt Jews…what planet are you living on to believe that?!
Menachem Shmei, my last comment to you was not so clearly written, therefore i am clarifying my answer to you in this post.
2. Here’s what you wrote: “(…Based on that hekesh he proves that just as they are alive, so too he is alive even though facts seem otherwise.) Rashi (on Gemara) explains that he was only buried because they thought he was dead, but really he was alive.” Do you really not see that you are totally contradicting yourself!!? You claimed the entire time that Rashi said the Yaacov Avinu was PHYSICALLY ALIVE and now you say that Rashi “explains that HE WAS ONLY BURIED because they thought he was dead, but really he was alive”. So now you are changing what you claimed Rashi says and now you are admiting what I had said all along that Rashi does not contradict the posuk that Yaacov’s body expired (and therefore he was buried) and he is not saying that Yaacov is physically alive!!! Over what exactly are you still arguing with me on this?!
Menachem Shmei,
1. You are arguing over nothing. I’m not even going to respond to your (non)rebuttal. This is what the Gemara says, its as clear as day that the Gemorah (and the meforshim say that it) means that Yaacov is alive through his seed. בָּתַר דִּסְעוּד אֲמַר לֵיהּ, הָכִי אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: יַעֲקֹב אָבִינוּ לֹא מֵת. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: וְכִי בִּכְדִי סְפַדוּ סַפְדָּנַיָּא וַחֲנַטוּ חָנְטַיָּיא וּקְבַרוּ קַבָּרַיָּיא? אֲמַר לֵיהּ: מִקְרָא אֲנִי דּוֹרֵשׁ, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״וְאַתָּה אַל תִּירָא עַבְדִּי יַעֲקֹב נְאֻם ה׳ וְאַל תֵּחַת יִשְׂרָאֵל כִּי הִנְנִי מוֹשִׁיעֲךָ מֵרָחוֹק וְאֶת זַרְעֲךָ מֵאֶרֶץ שִׁבְיָם״, מַקִּישׁ הוּא לְזַרְעוֹ: מָה זַרְעוֹ בַּחַיִּים — אַף הוּא בַּחַיִּים.
2. Here’s what you wrote: “…Based on that hekesh he proves that just as they are alive, so too he is alive even though facts seem otherwise. Rashi (on Gemara) explains that he was only buried because they thought he was dead, but really he was alive.” Do you really not see that you are totally contradicting yourself!!? You claimed the entire time that Rashi said the Yaacov Avinu was PHYSICALLY ALIVE and now you say that Rashi “explains THAT HE WAS only BURIED because they thought he was dead, but really he was alive”. So now you are saying I said said all along that his body expired as the posek says and not physically alive!!! Over what exactly are you still arguing with me on this? Unbelievable!
Menachem Shmei, I asked you specific questions like “does Chabad believe the rebbe runs the world”, etc. These are specific questions of your beliefs which warranted specific yes or no answer answers .
If you would ask me if I think anyone besides for Hashem runs the world I’d answer you unequivocally, a one word answer “no”. However, you challenged me on HOW I can say that Hashem doesnt have partners when the Gemarah “clearly” says that He does. That needs an explanation for an answer, it is not a one word answer on my specific beliefs, but an explanation of what the Gemorah actually means because clearly tried to misconstrue the Gemorah to make it look as if the Gemorah says that Hashem has partners in running the world which is false, that is not what the Gemorah means.
Qwerty, I always get sucked into arguments because it disgusts me how they misnterpret our holy sources to fit their crazy, avodah zora narrative and i feel the need to dispute their absurd claims. This is what happened when I used to argue with Christians, but arguing with Lubavitchers who believe in their rebbe being a divinity is more problematic because they know more than Christians and their misinterpretations are more sophisticated and more subtle, and hence more dangerous for frum people.
Sechel, I’m glad to hear you dont believe in that. Im wondering what percentage of Chabad doee believe in that ideology. You cannot deny this about Chabad when I watched many videos of Chabad rabbis saying these things. I have posted 4 videos from Chabad rabbis saying these things about the the rebbe, that he runs the world, that he is physically alive, etc, etc and a video of Lubavitche praying to Rebbe’s chair, claiming he’s not feeling well 30 years after his death, calling him up for an aliyeh, etc. 2 of these videos were posted on the other thread, another one was not posted at all and the 4th one was deleted by the mods. But these are the facts that I see of what Chabad rabbis teach Chabad Chassidim and some of Chabad’s Chassidim own behavior.
Menachem Shmei, Rashi himself points to the word in the posuk ” ויגוע” that he expired, he never challenges that. This is what Rashi says: ויגוע ויאסף. וּמִיתָה לֹא נֶאֶמְרָה בוֹ, וְאָ”רַ יַעֲקֹב אָבִינוּ לֹא מֵת . Rashi never said that he did not expire and that Yaacov Avinu was PHYSICALLY alive after he expired. Rashi mentioning that the Torah does not say מות, does not mean that Rashi meant that Yaacov’s body did not expire. We have numerous meforshim explaining what Rashi meant and none of them, perhaps with the exception of “meforshim shel Chabad “, none of these meforshim claim that Yaacov Avinu’s body did not expire.
The “source you mention to prove your point”, Taanis 5B, you leave out the part where R’ Yitzchok, who is the one bringing up that Yaacov Avinu did not die, expands on that that Yaacov will be saved as his seed is alive and will be saved (from captivity). The classic understanding of this gemerah is that Yaacov Avinu is alive through his descendants. Never does the gemorah say that Yaacov Avinu is alive physically.
This is the power of avodah zora, to spin and misinterpret things so that supposedly there is “proof from the sources” in the validity of your worship of your idol.
Menachem shmei, absolutely Hashem doesn’t have partners in running the universe. Hashem created the world in a specific way that humans are the vehicles in the creation of other human beings, hence parents are called partners in the creation of their children, but do they actually create their children? Absolutely not. Humans can only be parents if Hashem wills it to be so, from the starting point until the finish, parents do not create their children, they are vehicles, and hence called partners, in the creation of their children.
This is the danger of Chabadianity. Just like Christianity, they mistranslate or misinterpret and take out of context a posuk in Tanach, Orin Chabad’s case, a Gemarah or another source, and that they warp into supporting their getchke.
Menachem Shmei, I was skimming through the thread again to search for something and I saw that I missed your response to me about a Chabad rabbi saying that Rashi said that Yaacov Avinu didn’t die physically and you said that that rabbi is saying the truth. That is not what Rashi said! Rashi said that Yaacov Avinu expired, but did not die. He never said that he is alive physically!!! He said he expired but did not die which meforshim have many explanations what it means (one mefoiresh is that he lives on through his children) But you have to be “not too smart” to even think that Rashi thought that Yaacov Avinu is still PHYSICALLY alive during his time…just as you have to be incredibly brainwashed to believe that your rebbe is physically alive today after he died 30 years ago…
I am asking these questions from all Lubavitche on here, please answer me. I asked these questions on the other thread from Menachem Shmei who thinks that by ignoring these questions the facts about Lubavitch can be ignored.
I’m asking all Lubavitche here to clarify what their beliefs are regarding their rebbe. Do you believe your rebbe runs the world, that he is everywhere, that you can pray to him anywhere and he’ll listen to your prayer and help, and that he never made mistakes? (These are the attributes omnipotence and omnipresence which are attributes of Hashem) Yes or no? It’s not an essay question. Just answer a simple, one word answer, yes or no.
You Lubavitche are trying to deflect these questions by bringing “sources”, stories and writing about everything and anything other than what you beliefs are regarding your rebbe. But the fact remains that you are being evasive, you are not being truthful about your beliefs. One has to be stupid to not see what you are doing.