philosopher

Menachem shmei, I thought you missed my comment about the ria”f but then I went over the posts and saw that you did see it. There were so many responses to this thread I didn’t notice all of them.

OK, so whoever wants can look in the sefer eyin yaacov on everything that the Rif wrote on taanus 5 2 and yaacov lo meis.

At first I was impressed that you were able to refer to so many meforshim on this Rashi and Gemorah. But then when you mentioned that you don’t see the part of the rif that I mentioned I realized that it’s copy and paste from some “Chabad Torah” . Sure enough I unearthed a Chabad piece bringing all these meforshim and weaving it into their article titled “A King without a Nation”…in fact, there are many Chabad articles with reference to “Yaacov lo mes” and meforshim on it, taken out of context of course, and I see that this belief that Yaacov “being physically alive in his kever” is very central and important in the worship of the rebbe. It’s mamesh like Yosef Hatzadik feared the metzriim will deitify Yaacov, you are now doing to your rebbe all on the account of the words “Yaacov lo meis”…

Menachem Shmei, also yo add to my previous post, you claim that you linked the meforshim. There are no links

This a nice shuir by Rabbi Gladstein. He says the Alshich says that Yaacov lo mes means that the faculties of neshomah cling to him and lays dormant (not that his body is alive).

What I find fascinating is that Yosef didn’t tell the people that Yaacov didn’t die because then they would turn him into a deity and worship him. This is similar scenerio to the Lubavitche who turned their rebbe into a deity who is supposedly running the world. They have to claim that he is PHYSICALLY alive, otherwise he is just like the other tzaddikim (if you consider him to be a tzaddik) who died and has no major deity-like superpowers.

Menachem Shmei said repeatedly that Yaacov is PHYSICALLY alive so that he can draw a parallel from his rebbe to Yaacov, both supposedly being physically alive. Yosef Hatzaddik, who saw that Yaacov lo meis, was afraid the Mitzrim will worship Yaacov so he told the mitzrim to embalm him (partially) and the reason he could do so was because he knew that his physical body had expired (despite his neshama still clinging to his body in a dormant manner according to the Alshich) But Menachem shmei is still saying that Yaacov is PHYSICALLY ALIVE just so he can “prove” his rebbe can also be physically alive…

Yankel berel, Chabadianity is Christianity version 2. They believe in anything that will make their fairytale a reality and from that starting point they misinterpret Torah sources so that it will align with the a”z ideologies.

No wonder so many boys/men dont understand Gemorah well. Are they not taught in cheder/yeshiva how to learn and understand texts? They simply don’t bother to understand pshat. You cannot take part of a Chazal or a posuk and claim to understand what the text means from only part of the verse, or even from one verse. Every word means something, the context means something. Otherwise the words “breishis buru Elokim” can mean the beginning of creation created God, c”v, to you. You cannot USE Tanach and Gemorah like Christians use the verses, pointing to a word or even a verse out of context otherwise you will be able to “prove anything you want the Torah to prove” but you won’t understand p’shat. That’s how the Tzedoikim and all apikorsim “learnt” the posukim without understanding the context.

If you want a posuk, or a Chazal or a Rishon, or any text for that matter, to mean what YOU want it to mean, you can disregard part of what the verse says or you can take it of of context, and then claim that it means what you want it to mean…in that case it is certainly “refreshing” for people like Menachem Shmei to have a “Torah discussion” with one who is willing to disregard part of a verse and the context in which the verse is being discussed.

Understanding texts is learning what the author of the text wanted to convey, not what you want to convey. You cannot claim that the author wants to convey something when you disregard part of what the verse says, you cannot contradict what the author says and then claim that it seems the author contradicts himself, you cannot read the text out of context.

Going back to Rashi on the posuk, if Rashi himself says that the posuk says that Yaacov expired but did not die, it means that Rashi does not contradict that Yaacov expired, period. However, it ALSO means that Rashi says Yaacov did not die. In this case, how can he expire, be embalmed and not die? Rashi doesn’t answer that but if Rashi said he expired but he did not die then we can need to gain understanding on what it means “יעקב לא מת”. If Rashi would’ve say his body was still alive despite his expiring and embalming then you can claim that Rashi said he was physically alive. However, Rashi did not say his body stayed alive. לא מת can mean many things as the MEFORSHIM EXPLAIN and none of them say that Yaacov’s stayed alive! If someone on this thread claims “יעקב לא מת literally”! It is not Rashi who wrote the word “literally”! If an individual declares that Rashi meant it literally and that he meant that his physical body is alive it’s his own conclusion disregarding the context in which the words “yaacov lo mes” was written.

Rashi on Gemorah does not argue with the Gemorah that Yaacov was buried and eulogized. What he says is that they thought he died but he didn’t die. How could Rashi believe that Yaacov EXPIRED (ויגוע), how could he believe that he was BURIED and EULOGIZED and still be PHYSICALLY alive? Well, Rashi doesn’t say that Yaacov was physically alive only that he didn’t die. And for that, as I’ve said above, there are numerous meforshim that say what “he didn’t die” means. Neither Rashi, nor any of the meforshim claim that Yaacov Avinu is still walking on this planet earth to this day in his physical body.

You can only claim that Rashi means that Yaacov is physically alive if you believe that your rebbe is buried 6 feet under yet still walking around here somewhere with his physical body. If someone finds the rebbe please let me know, I’d like to meet with him.

Ujm, you keep repeating the same mantras yourself.

1. Meanwhile you have nothing to remark about the Rambam’s declaration about the Muslims, the violent Muslim rampages on communities that did not accept their religion, the Arab/Muslims have always been violent, period. You have not responded to the fact Muslims committed hundreds of thousands murders of non-Jews in the last decade. Zionism has nothing to do with Arab/Muslim violence, period.
2. I bought you a link of the recording of Rabbi Miller regarding the Israeli elections, he did not say you cant vote, simply said hes leaving up to other Rabbis (many more Rabbis encouraged/encourage voting in the elections than the anti-Zionist rabbis). You wrote what Rabbi Miller and Rabbi Hutner wrote against the atheist Zionist LEADERS, it was not against the Zionist movement. You ignored the fact that Rabbi Hutner learned under Rav Kook so he couldn’t have been an anti-Zionist. I heard Rabbi Miller on a recording say he can’t answer a question about Zionism. I believe when he was younger he was anti-Zionist and in his later years, as the Chareidi communities became more and bigger he did not speak against Zionism.
3. I don’t have pride in the State. I am against the secular “education” the Israeli government provides for Jewish children. I am against the secular government giving citizenship for non-Jews, i was against the Israeli government giving away land “for peace” . I am against a lot of things the Israeli government does. But I’m also against Jews not defending themselves. I support Jews having an army and fighting their enemies.

Potato, no not only Chabad links are allowed. I posted on another thread a link to Rabbi Avigdor Miller’s shmuess on voting in the Israeli elections and the mods posted it.

Coffee addict, you are so right that only a Lubavitche would argue that Rashi says one thing on the posuk and a different thing on the Gemarah as if Rashi is contradicting himself.

What dishonesty. I cannot take that.

I will not argue directly with Menachem Shmei anymore because when one is so dishonest that they do not seek out the truth only go in circles to defend their position to try to “prove” that the Torah supports his a”z, he is not worth my time anymore. Menachem Shmei is going back and forth, talking out of both sides of the mouth. He says that Rashi says Yaacov was buried (actually Rashi points to the word in the posuk saying that Yaacov expired but that it does not say he died, so he agrees that Yaacov expired) but at the same time Shmei says that Rashi says on the Gemorah that Yaacov is PHYSICALLY alive…never mind that that gemorah AND Rashi clearly state what being alive means and it is not that Yaacov is physically alive…to say that Rashi is saying on one hand that Yaacov was buried and on the other that he’s physically alive?! Rashi is not saying ” יעקב לא מת literally”. Does Rashi say the word “literally”? No, Menachem shmaya is saying that Rashi is saying the word “literally”. He tries to make it seem as if Rashi is arguing with himself and saying a different pshat on the Gemorah than the posuk! What a bezoyin haTorah to twist pesukim and meforshim to try to prove that his a”z worship is the truth! Menachem you can try to twist the Truth but the Torah cannot be twisted, regardless of your attempts.

For all Lubavitche out there who believe things like the rebbe is running the world and other such idolatrous beliefs, I am posting the 13 principals of faith to remind us all what the Torah teaches us about belief in Hashem.

The 13 Principles of Faith by the Rambam:

Principle 1
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the Creator and מנהיג for all created beings. He alone made, makes, and will make all that is created.

Principle 2
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is a Unity, and there is no union in any way like Him. He alone is our God, Who was, Who is, and Who is to be.

Principle 3
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is not a body, is not affected by physical matter, and nothing whatsoever can compare to Him [or be compared with Him].

Principle 4
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is the first and is the last.

Principle 5
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, to Him alone is it fitting to make prayer and to another prayer shall not be made.

Principle 6
I believe by complete faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

Principle 7
I believe by complete faith that the prophesy of Moshe Rabbeinu, a”h, was true and that he was the father of all prophets that preceded him as well as all that came after him.

Principle 8
I believe by complete faith that the whole Torah now found in our hands was the exact same one given to Moshe, a”h

Principle 9
I believe by complete faith that this is the Torah, and it shall not be changed and it shall not be replaced with another from the Creator, blessed be His name.

Principle 10
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every action done by each human being as well as all their thoughts.

Principle 11
I believe by complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards all who keep His commandments and punishes all those who transgress His commands.

Principle 12
I believe by complete faith in the coming of the Messiach, and even though he tarry in waiting, in spite of that, I will still wait expectantly for him each day that he will come

Principle 13
I believe by complete faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time that will be pleasing before the Creator, blessed be His name, and the remembrance of Him will be exalted forever and for all eternity.

Qwerty, menachem shmei knows a lot but he knows nothing because he, like others who are intent on proving their worship of their idols is legitimate, misconstrue and lie about what the sources really say. They don’t only lie to others, really they are try to convince themselves that they are not sinning against Hashem with their idolatry. They lie to the extent that they twist themselves into pretzels trying to get the sources to fit their narrative.

Ujm, there are almost no Zionists today except for the religious right-wingers. The secular are not Zionists anymore. No one said we are not in golus anymore. If someone feels safer Israel, kol hakavod to them, but you feel more secure in the US which is an illusion just like the Jews who felt safe in Germany before the Holocaust.

Bring me a source that Rav aHutner and Rav Avigdor Miller said that the Zionists bear guilt for the Holocauset.

Yes, overall the Muslims were better to the Jews however they still murdered Jews and stole Jewish children, especially girls. They forced tens of thousands of Jews to convert to Islam which so many did because they still served One God under Islam so it was not like converting to Christianity which is pure a”z. If the scores of Jews in the Arabian lands who converted to Islam would refuse to be converted like the Ashkenazim refused to be converted to Christianity, and therefore killed, many more Jews would die at the hands of the Muslims.

It’s utterly ridiculous, and only the due to brainwashing, to think that Zionism is to blame for current Muslim violence. In the last decade, Muslims have killed hundreds of thousands of their own Muslim people, they killed Yazidis, Christians, and other minorities, they have displaced millions of people, but sure, if not for Zionism they wouldn’t hurt Jews…what planet are you living on to believe that?!

Menachem Shmei,

1. You are arguing over nothing. I’m not even going to respond to your (non)rebuttal. This is what the Gemara says, its as clear as day that the Gemorah (and the meforshim say that it) means that Yaacov is alive through his seed. בָּתַר דִּסְעוּד אֲמַר לֵיהּ, הָכִי אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹחָנָן: יַעֲקֹב אָבִינוּ לֹא מֵת. אֲמַר לֵיהּ: וְכִי בִּכְדִי סְפַדוּ סַפְדָּנַיָּא וַחֲנַטוּ חָנְטַיָּיא וּקְבַרוּ קַבָּרַיָּיא? אֲמַר לֵיהּ: מִקְרָא אֲנִי דּוֹרֵשׁ, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״וְאַתָּה אַל תִּירָא עַבְדִּי יַעֲקֹב נְאֻם ה׳ וְאַל תֵּחַת יִשְׂרָאֵל כִּי הִנְנִי מוֹשִׁיעֲךָ מֵרָחוֹק וְאֶת זַרְעֲךָ מֵאֶרֶץ שִׁבְיָם״, מַקִּישׁ הוּא לְזַרְעוֹ: מָה זַרְעוֹ בַּחַיִּים — אַף הוּא בַּחַיִּים.

2. Here’s what you wrote: “…Based on that hekesh he proves that just as they are alive, so too he is alive even though facts seem otherwise. Rashi (on Gemara) explains that he was only buried because they thought he was dead, but really he was alive.” Do you really not see that you are totally contradicting yourself!!? You claimed the entire time that Rashi said the Yaacov Avinu was PHYSICALLY ALIVE and now you say that Rashi “explains THAT HE WAS only BURIED because they thought he was dead, but really he was alive”. So now you are saying I said said all along that his body expired as the posek says and not physically alive!!! Over what exactly are you still arguing with me on this? Unbelievable!

Qwerty, I always get sucked into arguments because it disgusts me how they misnterpret our holy sources to fit their crazy, avodah zora narrative and i feel the need to dispute their absurd claims. This is what happened when I used to argue with Christians, but arguing with Lubavitchers who believe in their rebbe being a divinity is more problematic because they know more than Christians and their misinterpretations are more sophisticated and more subtle, and hence more dangerous for frum people.

Menachem Shmei, Rashi himself points to the word in the posuk ” ויגוע” that he expired, he never challenges that. This is what Rashi says: ויגוע ויאסף. וּמִיתָה לֹא נֶאֶמְרָה בוֹ, וְאָ”רַ יַעֲקֹב אָבִינוּ לֹא מֵת . Rashi never said that he did not expire and that Yaacov Avinu was PHYSICALLY alive after he expired. Rashi mentioning that the Torah does not say מות, does not mean that Rashi meant that Yaacov’s body did not expire. We have numerous meforshim explaining what Rashi meant and none of them, perhaps with the exception of “meforshim shel Chabad “, none of these meforshim claim that Yaacov Avinu’s body did not expire.

The “source you mention to prove your point”, Taanis 5B, you leave out the part where R’ Yitzchok, who is the one bringing up that Yaacov Avinu did not die, expands on that that Yaacov will be saved as his seed is alive and will be saved (from captivity). The classic understanding of this gemerah is that Yaacov Avinu is alive through his descendants. Never does the gemorah say that Yaacov Avinu is alive physically.

This is the power of avodah zora, to spin and misinterpret things so that supposedly there is “proof from the sources” in the validity of your worship of your idol.

Menachem Shmei, I was skimming through the thread again to search for something and I saw that I missed your response to me about a Chabad rabbi saying that Rashi said that Yaacov Avinu didn’t die physically and you said that that rabbi is saying the truth. That is not what Rashi said! Rashi said that Yaacov Avinu expired, but did not die. He never said that he is alive physically!!! He said he expired but did not die which meforshim have many explanations what it means (one mefoiresh is that he lives on through his children) But you have to be “not too smart” to even think that Rashi thought that Yaacov Avinu is still PHYSICALLY alive during his time…just as you have to be incredibly brainwashed to believe that your rebbe is physically alive today after he died 30 years ago…

Menachem Shmei, i have seen documentaries protraying Chareidim in a negative light. I have never attacked Chareidim based on any documentary and my opinions on Chareidim are not hinged on any documentary. In fact, if there were opportunities to defend Chareidim over a documentary that portrayed Chareidim in a false manner, i defended Chareidim and blasted the documentary. My opinions of individuals and groups and communities are based on their beliefs and actions, not on an edited false narrative.

I’m asking you to clarify your beliefs. Do you believe the Rebbe runs the world, that he is everywhere, that you can pray to him anywhere and he’ll listen to your prayer and help, and that he never made mistakes? (These are the attributes omnipotence and omnipresence which are attributes of Hashem) Yes or no? It’s not an essay question. Just answer a simple, one word answer, yes or no.

I wondered what percentage of Lubavitche believe in the rebbe having divine powers. But all I see is that whenever Lubavitche attempt to defend Chabad (not only here on this site)they do not deny that they believe that the Rebbe runs the world, that he’s all over and that you can pray to him where you are, that he never made mistakes and all kinds of ideas and the worshiping behaviors they engage in worshipping their rebbe. They simply think that by throwing “shmutz” at those who are exposing their behavior and criticizing it, that it will blind people to the truth of what Chabad is and scare people off from criticizing them. So I can only assume at this point, when not one Lubavitche has said clearly that they themselves, and that mainstream Lubavitche, do not believe that the Rebbe runs the world and have all the other deity-like attributes they claim their rebbe has, that that is what they all believe in?

Potato, regardless if you bring sources that moshiach can come from the dead, the fact is that many Lubavitche rabbis claim that the Rebbe is PHYSICALLY alive. For moshiach to fulfill the prophecies he would have to be alive so if you believe your Rebbe is the moshiach he would have to have techius maysim first. Why don’t non-Chabad rabbunim protest the belief that the rebbe is moshiach?They dont care, and rightfully so, because its not a”z to believe that the Rebbe is moshiach.

The problem is, and I keep repeating this, is the a”z aspect of worshipping your rebbe. I have said that it’s a chillul Hashem that no one is speaking out against the avodah zora that goes on. However, I will be dan l’kaf zchus that like most frum people, gedolim have no clue that Lubavitche believe their rebbe is running the world, that they are are praying to the rebbe’s chair, that they believe they can pray to the lubavitche rebbe like to a god, that they make aliyahs for him like hes alive, that they make believe that he’s giving dollars to the oilim, that they say that the rebbe never made mistakes, etc, etc. The behavior of making believe that the rebbe is giving out dollars and l’chaims is like those who worship actual idols; they make as if their god is actually doing the physical work. The gedolim have no clue, like most frum people, that this is what Lubavitche believe in and actually do.

gobrit, the argument at this point is not so much if the Rebbe is moshiach. If only the moshiach aspect would be the case no would care this much. The bigger issue is the worship of their rebbe. Would you be OK with Christian communities living amongst us, dressed as Chareidim, feeling like they are Chareidim, mingling with us? Would their hechsheirim be accepted as kosher? Would people buy from their sofrim? Would they daven in their sohuls? The early Christians were “frum” Jews, so this scenerio was the reality 2,000 years ago.
The bigger problem is not Chabad meshiachistens insistence that their dead rebbe is moshiach, that is the source of the problem but not the extent of the problem. The bigger problem is that Chabiadinity is not Judaism. It is a seperate religion of kofrim who believe the Rebbe runs the world, the Rebbe is everywhere, that one should pray to him, that he knows everything, that he never made mistakes and thar he is alive in a physical sense. The is a”z mamesh. That we have people from this religion giving hechsheirim and providing food, having minyanim all over the world where Jewish travelers daven and provide services and mingling with us is a huge, huge problem as well as a chillul shem shomayim.

I went to Satmer school. My family is not Satmer nor Satmer geshtimt. We read both, the Jewish Press and Der Yid, religiously every week. No one in my family had any pro or anti Zionist opinions. To them, it was what it was. For me, having an opinion on everything even as a young kid, I could not understand what the Satmere wanted the Yidden in Israel to do in the face of attacks by the Arabs. Learning the history of pre-independant Israel and the way the Arabs kept on attacking the Jews and cutting off food and supply routes, it was ridiculous to me that the anti-Zionists expected the Jews to sit with folded hands and not protect themselves. I also found it incredibly naive for anti-Zionists to believe the UN or an international body made up of non-Jews, as they used to propose an idea of who can govern Israel instead of the Zionists, would do anything to protect Jews.

Today however, I do realize the extent the secular Zionists have destroyed Israel with their own hands. There are today almost no secular Zionists, they are for the most part simply leftists. They have destroyed their own ideology and they are constantly putting Israel at security risk. Giving away land to the enemies, giving in to terrorist demands, cowering in the face of international pressure, imprisoning their soldiers, these are all the products of secular Zionist education that has left generations of secular empty shells due to their upbringing devoid of Yiddishkeit. Their entire ideology of secular Zionism has collapsed.

As for the rightwing Zionists, I support the frum ones who adhere to Rav Kook zt”l teachings, not the ones who put living in the land before halcha and end up trampling on halacha.

I still believe Jews not only have a right to defend themselves, but they have an obligation to do so, and I will always believe that.
Having said that, due to the tarivos and secular ideology that permeates the IDF, the secular have no right to draft the Chareidim into the army.

My views my look paradoxical, but I think that it reflects the reality.

Potato and sechel, instead of answering my questions about your beliefs about the Lubavitche Rebbe you claim lies are being fed and people are taught to hate… B’kitzer, you think that by skirting the questions instead of being honest, and using the words “wild allegations, sinas chinum and machloikes” you can scare people off from shedding light onto your avoda zora worship. The videos and articles from Lubavitche “rabbis” are there and you ignore it. The questions are put forth and you ignore it. You think people are blind? You think you can hide under the cover of the words “sinas chinum and machloikes”?

Yserbius, many women today supposedly need to know the sources of halacha of tznius and then proceed to trample on basic halacha because they think they can “pasken ” that rabbanim like Rabbi Falk was a “machmir”. Is it written anywhere in the Torah that you cant to go with a wig and hair till the waist? Does it say in the Torah that you can’t wear a bodysuit? It’s ridiculous that these women think they can pasken halacha because they supposedly know the sources which they then proceed to write off as “machmirim”. And how do you think these “female dayanim” go dressed? Bare elbows, short skirts, no stockings, hair and wigs length till their behinds, form fitting clothing, etc, etc. They brazenly disregard basic halachas they claim to be experts in.

EchadHaemes, please state a source that says knowing Christian theology is assured. Many great Rabbis knew Christian theology. I’m not saying it’s for everyone to learn, some people get easily swayed by arguments even if those arguments are illogical. Many frum people like myself who know Christian history and theology well see the path Chabad is heading on with their belief in the Rebbe as moshiach and his divine powers eerily similar to Christianity. If Berger knows Christian history and theology then it is understandable that he sees the danger in the Chabad ideology of belief in the rebbe as Moshiach and having divine powers being that it is so similar to Christianity.

sechel, there are meforshim that our great Rabbis wrote on the pesukim in Tanach, chazal, gemorah, etc, etc. that helps us understand things that would be hard to understand. It is Lubavitche like you who twist everything out of context. For example when Rashi says that Yaacov avinu did not die there are numerous mefarshim that explain what it means. There is no mefoiresh saying that he is here with us physically. And yet i heard a Chabad rabbi claim that Rashi said that Yaacov is with us physically; that is a lie. When chabad “rabbis” claim that the Rebbe is here with us physically and that he runs the world you know good and well that they mean it absolutely literally. In fact, everything they “teach” revolves around “proving” that the “rebbe is alive” and that “he can’t make mistakes” and that he’s everywhere” and that “he runs the world” and other such a”z teachings. And you know as well as everybody else that these “rabbis” mean it absolutely literally.

Qwerty, unbelievable that a “rabbi” can talk like that about Moshe Rabbeinu! They are not practicing Yiddishkeit but their own invented religion; they are seeing their Rebbe through the lens of their religion.