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Menachem Shmei, as I said before, I will not argue with you on this topic. You will see what you want to see. You WANT Yaacov Avinu
to be physically alive in his kever. We already went around and around with this getting nowhere.I’m bringing here the Ramban for those who want to see it:
וַיִּגְוַע וַיֵּאָסֶף וּמִיתָה לֹא נֶאֶמְרָה בוֹ, וְאָמְרוּ רַבּוֹתֵינוּ (תענית ה), יַעֲקֹב אָבִינוּ לֹא מֵת, לְשׁוֹן רַשִׁ”י (רש”י על בראשית מ”ט:ל”ג). וּלְדַעַת רַבּוֹתֵינוּ הֲרֵי יַעֲקֹב הִזְכִּיר מִיתָה בְּעַצְמוֹ (בראשית מ”ח:כ”א), “הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי מֵת וְהָיָה אֱלֹהִים עִמָּכֶם”, וְאוּלַי לֹא יָדַע הוּא בְּנַפְשׁוֹ, אוֹ שֶׁלֹּא רָצָה לָתֵת כָּבוֹד לִשְׁמוֹ. וְכֵן (בראשית נ’:ט”ו) “וַיִּרְאוּ אֲחֵי יוֹסֵף כִּי מֵת אֲבִיהֶם”, כִּי לָהֶם מֵת הוּא, אוֹ שֶׁלֹּא יָדְעוּ הֵם בָּזֶה כְּלָל.
AND HE EXPIRED, AND WAS GATHERED TO HIS PEOPLE. But the word “death” is not mentioned in his case. Our Rabbis therefore said, “Jacob, our father, did not die.” This is the language of Rashi.
Now according to this opinion of our Rabbis, the difficulty arises: Now Jacob applied the term “death” to himself, as it is written, Behold, I die, but G-d shall be with you! Now perhaps he did not know it himself, or it may be that he did not wish to pay honor to himself. Similarly, with respect to the verse, And when Joseph’s brethren saw that their father was dead, we must say that to them he was dead, or it may be that they did not at all know of this.Here is the Ramban’s conclusion:
וְעִנְיַן הַמִּדְרָשׁ הַזֶּה, כִּי נַפְשׁוֹת הַצַּדִּיקִים צְרוּרוֹת בִּצְרוֹר הַחַיִּים, וְזוֹ תְּחוֹפֵף עָלָיו כָּל הַיּוֹם, לוֹבֶשֶׁת לְבוּשָׁה הַשֵּׁנִי, שֶׁלֹּא יִפְשְׁטֶנָּה עֲרוּמָה, כְּיַעֲקֹב, אוֹ תִּתְלַבֵּשׁ לְעִתִּים מְזֻמָּנוֹת. וְיוּבַן הָעִנְיָן הַזֶּה בְּמַסֶּכֶת שַׁבָּת (שבת קנ”ב) וּבְמַסֶּכֶת כְּתֻבּוֹת (קג.):
THE PURPORT of this Midrash [which states that “Jacob, our father, did not die],” is that the souls of the righteous are bound in the bind of life with the Eternal, and his soul covers him all the day, “wearing a scarlet garment” so that she not be stripped naked, as Yaacov’s [soul was privileged to do continually], or which she dons at certain occasions [as do the souls of lesser righteous individuals]. This matter will be understood in the light of what is told in masechtos Shabbath and masechtos Kethuboth.In other words, the Ramban is questioning in the first part but his conclusion is that Yaacov lo mes means that his non-death is a spiritual matter.
Qwerty, I never said Yaacov’s departure from this world wasn’t unusual. As it says ויגוע and not מת. His departure from this world was certainly unusual and i never argued otherwise. I said his guf is not physically alive otherwise they would not have (partially) embalmed and buried him. Furthermore, later in the parshah it says that the brothers saw that Yaacov died.
Yaacov’s guf is not physically alive, that what I said.
His death was unusual and he his guf is alive in a spiritual sense.
Menachem Shmei writes” You have a question from a posuk, and Ramban there answers. End of story. There is no contradiction between Torah Sebiksav and Shebaal Peh here.” Well, your interpretation of Rashi contradicts Torah Shebischav where it says clearly that a. Yaacov expired and b. Yaacov died (the brothers saw that their father died).
Again, Torah Shebal Peh does NOT CONTRADICT EVER Torah Shebischav, period. The issue with the Tzedoikim was that they interpreted Torah Shebchsav wrongly because they disregarded Torah Shebaal Peh entirely, not that they interpreted it wrong like YOU are doing to try to “prove the authenticity” of YOUR AVODAH ZORA worship of your rebbe. Whatever you want things should mean you interpret it that way.
Torah Shebachsav expands and explains the Torah Shebaal Peh, particularly it teaches us how to implement halacha of Torah Shebischav in our everyday lives. The Torah Shebaal Peh does not contradict the halacha in Torah Shebischav, it teaches and expounds and clarifies it, so does not Torah Shebaal Peh contradict Torah Shebischsav in anything, not only halacha.
Lost spark, .די גלויבסט און דיין רבי אלטס דיין אפגאט, ביסט אן אפיקורוס. די גלייבסט און דיין געטשקע אז ער לעבט אויף אייביג, אז ער פירט דו וועלט דו דאווענסט צו אים. ס’איז גרויליג דיין עבודה זרה דינען
Yankel berel, your conclusion is that there is a “measure of life in Yaacov’s body”.
Yosef and his brothers would not bury their father if his guf would still be physically alive. As it says in the posuk that he “expired”, Rashi himself says the posuk says “expired but not died” . What does it mean that Yaacov expired? Yaacov is alive but his body expired. A little further in the parsha it says that the brothers of Yosef saw that their father DIED with the loshen “mes”.
Rashi does not contradict any posuk in the Chumash and therefore he did not write that Yaacov’s guf is physically alive.
In conclusion, Yaacov’s guf is not alive in a physical sense. But his guf is alive spiritually by Yaacov’s soul being dormant in his guf. In that sense it would be “a measure of life in Yaacov’s body”.
Arso, so when will I hear from you which rabbi or talmud chuchem agrees that Yaacov was buried alive and is currently alive in his grave?
Seems like it’s easier for you to call me an apikorus because I don’t agree with your interpretation of a Rashi so you don’t bother clarifying your interpretation that contradicts a posuk in the Torah. That is really childish of childish of you.
Neville, you say, “The presence of the word guf is irrelevant. If he included it, you would just find other reasons to say it isn’t literal because you’re set on interpreting this the way you want. ”
That is an absolutely ridiculous comment you made. THE FACT IS THAT RASHI DOESNT CONTRADICT THE CHUMASH AND THAT’S WHY HE DOESNT WRITE “GUF”. The exclusion of the word “guf” is not irrelevantat at all. What is irrelevant is your speculation of how I would interpret it if Rashi put in the word “guf” because Rashi does NOT contradict any posuk in the Chumash, he expounds and explains the Chumash and therefore if his comment seems to contradict what the Chumash is saying then it is YOU who has misinterpreted what Rashi is saying.
Menachem Shmei, I remember arguing with you about Yaacov being buried. But perhaps I remember that wrong. I’m not going to reread the thread again to see if I am wrong here so I’ll say that if you didn’t argue about it then it’s my mistake. Sorry.
About Arso himself not saying that Yaacov is physically alive; if you say that you have to believe that Yaacov is physically alive because Rashi is (according to Arso) saying that Yaacov is physically alive otherwise you’re an apokiros as I was called for not believing that that is what Rashi is saying, and arguing the entire thread that that is what Rashi means, you can’t go hide under that cover now and say, I didn’t say it, Rashi says it. Because you did say it. You said it because you think that Rashi said it. I dont believe that Rashi means that he’s physically alive. Arso and you believe that that’s what Rashi says and you argued on that point, period.
Neville, I wasn’t so clear in my last comment. I meant that Rashi or any mefoiresh on the Chumash is meant as explanation to the pesukim in the Chumash-they do not contradict the Chumash. If they appear to contradict a pesuk in the Chumash you are interpreting the mefoiresh wrong.
When you are having a discussion on Gemorah then a pusok from the Chumash will not come into the discussion. When you are talking about a pesuk in the Torah, you can bring a mefoiresh to explain it, not to contradict what the Chumash is saying.
You are taking the Word of Hashem very lightly. Everything that the Rabbis expound upon is taken FROM the Chumash, not vice versa.
Neville says “Irrelevant. We don’t bring proofs from straight pasukim pretty much ever. This is the kind of thing I’m talking about. I get the temptation to say “well you’re bringing a rishon? I’ll bring an even better proof, a passuk from the Torah itself!” For better or for worse, that’s not how the Orthodox world works.”
When you want to have a Talmudic discussion you can bring a rishon. But to say that the comment that Rashi is making on a pasuk contradicts another posuk in the Chumash is absolutely ridiculous and disgusting. Rashi did not contradict the Word of Hashem.
Do you know that anyone can “prove” anything from such type of “learning” that you claim is the legitimate way?
You, like the others, keep parroting that Rashi means that Yaacov’s guf is alive is the mainstream understanding. So, please bring me any reputable rabbi that says that that is the meaning that Rashi means- that Yaacov’s guf is alive in his kever. Still waiting to hear from Arso, and now from you.
Coffee addict, after all this you think that I dont know what Rashi says? I don’t think any of you understand what we are arguing about here. We are arguing what “alive” means. Is Yacov avinu’s guf still physically alive or is Rashi talking about alive spiritually?
Unlike many of you here taking the pesukim of the Torah pretty lightly the way you keep on harping about what Rashi says and disregard that it says later in the Chumash that the brothers of Yosef saw that their father DIED, the great Rabbis understood that the Word of God cannot be contradicted. Rashi does not contradict the Torah. He does not say that Yaacov’s guv stayed alive, Yacov is always alive in a spiritual sense. Or as the Gemarah states, that Yacov is alive through his descendants. Also, according to another mefoiresh Yaacov not dying can mean that part of his soul lies dormant in the body. There are many meforshim on “Yaacov lo mes”. But nothing can contradict the Torah which says clearly that Yaacov died.
In my last comment that I addressed to Neville I wrote the ” the Torah says many literal things”…
I meant to write that the Torah says many things which is not meant to be interpreted in a physical sense. As an example, the Torah talks about “the arm of Hashem”. Does Hashem have a physical arm? No, He doesn’t.
Menachem Shmei claims that Happy New Year is an apikorus. Meanwhile, Menachem Shmei believes that a (dead) human being is running the world, that that dead and buried human being is really alive, that you can pray to this dead human being, that that dead human being is everywhere and that that dead human being never made, and still doesn’t make, mistakes, and that he’s coming back soon to fulfill his messianic duties…
So who is the apikorus?
Qwerty, the same thing happened to Menachem Shmei. First he was arguing with me that Yacov wasn’t buried. When I showed him that the posuk says that Yacov was buried, he backtracked. The same thing is now happening with Arso. First he argues on the entire thread that Yacov is PHYSICALLY alive because “Rashi says so”. Now he’s backtracking that he never said it. Well, Rashi never said that Yacov’s guf is alive, that was Arso’s own interpretation of Rashi. And he got caught when I told him to ask a reputable rav or talmud chuchem if Yacov Avinu is physically alive in his kever. I’m still waiting to hear back from him with whom he spoke to about Yacov being physically alive in his kever…
Neville, what is that I’m saying “that no Bais Yacov girl would say what I say?”
It says b’feresh in the Torah that brothers of Yosef saw that their father died. No mefoiresh says that Yacov’s GUF is alive, period. You are just parroting what Menachem Shmei and Arso are saying. Menachem Shmei is claiming meforshim are saying that his guf is alive. I’m asking you, did YOU look into his sources? I will answer that for you. No, you didn’t.
As for Rashi, he is simply saying Yacov did not die. He is not saying his guf is alive. Yacov not dying can mean spiritually. The Torah itself says many literal things such as “the arm of Hashem”. Does Hashem have a physical arm? No, he doesn’t. You have to understand how to understand pshat.
Happy new year got it right.
Chazal and meforshim do NOT contradict the Torah ever. I’ve said that over and over and over again. If you think that they do YOU are learning pshat wrong. Chazal and later meforshim NEVER contradicted a posuk in the Torah, period. Not Rashi, not Ramban, nobody. The Torah is the Word of the Living God. The Torah is the Truth. The Torah is eternal. If that’s what YOU take out of learning Mishnayos, Gemorah, Rashi, whatever else you are learning which seems to contradict a posuk in the Torah YOU are learning pshat wrong which most often comes from learning things out of context. I’ve said so many times, you cannot take a one posuk or a few words from the Tanach or Gemorah or whatever you are learning and build your empire on it. Everything needs to be learnt in context.
If you are basing your conclusions on a posuk or word you are doing like the Christians who take a posuk or word and misconstrue it. It is very easy to do so. To understand the Torah you need to know everything that the Torah says on that particular thing you are trying to understand, you need to know the context. Meforshim often are the keys to understanding the Torah. If you think that a mefoiresh is refuting or contradicting a posuk in the Torah YOUR understanding of that mefoiresh is wrong.
Now, if there is a sefer on the market that teaches pshat that contradicts a posuk in the Torah or a mefoiresh that contradicts a pusok in the Torah then that wrong. I do not believe though that there is any mefoiresh contradicts a posuk in the Torah. If it seems to contradict the posuk it’s because the one who is learning pshat is learning it wrong.
As for the Rashi which many of claim i am saying I am not believing what he says, you are all lying. I never said Rashi is wrong. Stop with your lies. I am saying that Rashi does NOT CONTRADICT any posuk in the Torah, period. Therefore, if it says in the Torah that the brothers of Yosef saw that their father DIED, Rashi who knew Torah better than you, did not mean to say what you are saying he is which is that his GUF was alive. That is YOUR conclusion. If you know Torah and Chazal and meforshim well you understand that “alive” can have many forms. Rashi is NOT saying that Yacov lo mes means that Yacov’s guf is alive. Yacov lo mes can mean that his soul is alive or he is alive through his descendants or any which way meforshim explain what alive means without the guf being alive because it says clearly in the Torah that Yacov died.
Arso, I said earlier on the other thread that I will not engage anymore with this back and forth with what Rashi means with “Yacov lo mes” in any way shape or form. We covered that extensively already and I’m not interested in arguing anymore with you. I said what I have to say on it. You also said what you have to say on “Yacov lo mes”. I dont agree with your interpretations and you told me it’s because I’m a woman who doesn’t know how to learn and that I’m an apikorus (c”s).
Therefore, since I don’t accept your interpretations of Rashi and meforshim then do what you advised me to do and go ask a reputable rav or talmud chuchem what Yacov Avinu’s guf is alive in his kever. Let me know the name of the rabbi said that Yacov is alive in his kever. Thank you.
Menachem Shmei, nope, that is not true. It is not only ahuirim I heard from other talmidei chachumim on Yacov lo mes. I have looked at the gemorah you quoted and many meforshim and none of them said what you were trying to them twist into. As for the ein yacov that i wasnt able to verify, ive said in the last thread, it is weird that that the only place that brings the iyin yacov you write about is from you and another Chabad article online. As i said before, i dont have a copy of the ein yacov and im not planning to buy it just for purposes of this thread. We covered that extensively in the last thread and I’m not going back there arguing over this topic again.
Now, you say “Truth. Truth. Truth. Torah. Torah. Torah.”
So I ask you again, I’ve lost track how many times I’ve asked you and you didn’t answer me. If you claim to be for the truth why don’t you tell everyone what you hold to be the truth? Why do you dodge my questions?Do you believe that the Lubavitche rebbe is running the world, that you can pray directly to him, that he never died and that he never made mistakes, that he is everywhere?
If you claim to be for the truth you would answer my questions. Either you believe in what I asked you or not. Whatever hashkafas you have, it is the truth for you so why be evasive about them?
Arso says, ” Show me one post where I said that Yaakov Avinu is alive. I said that Rashi et al said it, and that one is not allowed to reject Rashi based on one’s logic.”
You were arguing with me throughout the entire thread that with Rashi saying Yacov lo mes he means that Yacov is physically alive- that is what YOU are saying that you believe Rashi to mean with those words! As I’ve said many times, Rashi never ever said that Yaacov’s guf is alive in his kever and “alive” can mean many things which if you would be a tamud chuchem you would know that. Thats why you claiming that i am rejecting Rashi based on my logic is a strawman’s argument because i never rejected Rashi, period. Besides for Lubavitche “rabbis”, Menachem Shmei and you, I’ve heard no Rabbi interpret that Rashi means that Yacov’s guf is alive. Therefore, I told you to clarify that with a reputable rabbi.Arso says “philosopher: Do you know how many men learnt in yeshiva and yet are amei haaratzim ? No. Do you? ”
Yes, I know many amei haaratzim and I consider you to be one as well. Your opinions are not valid to me. Therefore, again, I advise you, like you claimed I should do, talk it over with a reputable rabbi or talmid chuchem to gain clarity on the matter and let me know which rabbi said that Yaacov’s guf is alive in his kever.And let me modify my last comment-i am not talking about the Lubavitche and pro-Lubavitche bringing sources that moshiach can come from the dead, my point in my last post is that they are arguing on Ramban and Ramban who said that moshiach can’t come from dead.
Bringing tons of meforshim to “support” something that the mefoirshim are not saying at all is simply deliberate misinterpretation and those sources have nothing to do with what that person is claiming the source is supporting. The vast majority of meforshim (with the exception of one source which i wasnt able to independently verify) that the Lubavitche and pro-Lubavitche are bringing did not support their argument but they skillfully interpreted to mean the way they wanted it.
It’s totally laughable how one can seriously argue that moshiach can be someone who already died ( also, at the same time the LR didnt die cause he is still alive in his kever like Yacov avinu, so hes covered from all angles)Despite the Ramban and Rambam saying explicitly that moshiach can’t be from a dead person and everyone thinks their arguments hold much water. And same goes for their other arguments.
So it’s really funny when people become overwhelmed when idol worshippers quote sources left right and center to “support” their idolatrous claims and then people think that they are such great “talmidei chachomim”…
RightJew, exactly. We see how many Jews are becoming weakened in the face of the onslaught of Chabad missionaries sounding very knowledgeable and dropping meforshim left right and center despite it proving nothing to support their avodah zora. But people become confused easily because they “sound like talmidie chachomim”. Meanwhile, you have one of their “talmud chuchem rabbis” like Manis Friedman claiming that Hashem has “needs” like a human being has needs and that is why He created humans to serve his needs and that there’s no gehinom and gan eden we should only do mitzvas because Hashem “needs” that…he’s just one of their crazy “rabbis” spouting kefira mamesh.
B’kitzer, their Chabadianity ideology is version #2 of Christianity which in summary is to upgrade the rebbe with the “atzmus emehus mlebush haguf” line to deity level and at the same time to downgrade the greatness of Hashem so that for them they pretty much even out in the end. Total and complete avodah zora.
The danger is that non-Chabad people can become confused by these Lubavitche looking so frum (the men at least) and even being “so knowledgeable in Torah” and they don’t chap that they spout non-sense by using pesukim, Chazal and meforshim to prove absolutely nothing because nothing in the Torah supports their ideology.
Qwerty, exactly. Learning gemorah with mefoirshim for many years, like Arso he claims he did, does not automatically make a person intelligent IF it they are not learning it correctly. For example, the Lubavitchers who claim their rebbe is alive and coming back as the moshiach, that their rebbe is running the world, etc. obviously are learning gemorah and meforshim wrong. Just like Shabsi Tzvi was a big “talmid chachom” . His followers included tamidei chachumim and rabbis but they were wrong because they learnt pshat wrong, they were blinded by all the noise made by Shabsi Tzvi.
Arso, so did you clarify yet with a talmid chuchem if “Yacov lo mes” means that Yacov’s guf is physically alive? Because as I’ve said, I have never heard a rav or talmid chuchem say that it means that his guf is alive and ive listened to many of them speaking on the subject. I’ve only heard it from Lubavitche and you. Don’t calk me an apikorus when I’m saying what I heard from talmidei chachumim. Perhaps you are the apikorus. You should clear that up with a reputable, non-Chabad, rabbi.
As I’ve said, if you have a Rabbi or talmud chuchem saying that Yacov lo mes means that Yacov’s guf is alive n his kever then post the rabbi’s name on this thread or the other one. (Still) Awaiting your response.
Arso, aha. So you decide that Yacov’s guf is physically alive and you can’t be bothered to clarify that with a rav or talmud chuchem because you “learnt in yeshiva”. That means that all talmidie chachumim who say that Yaacov lo mes means that he’s alive through his descendants (like the gemorah says) or have other peshutim on what it means that Yacov is alive but not that his guf is alive are “apikorsim” because you decided that Yacov lo mes means that Yacov is physically alive? Or is it only me because I have not learnt in yeshiva and I’m a woman so I can be called an apikorus? Shame on you.
You do not get a pass because you learnt in yeshiva. Are you that stupid? Do you know how many men learnt in yeshiva and yet are amei haaratzim ?
Neville, first of all, to make it clear, i never pretended to be an “authority” on anything. Ive made it abundantly clear who i am. The mistake you make is that you think Menachem Shmei is an authority when he is regurgitating Lubavitche talking points which I’ve seen all of them in many of articles on many Lubavitche websites. You get scared of the noise he makes.
Now here’s the thing you write that absolutely disgusts me. You write “Case and point, davar Torahs are inherently less likely to take a literal approach on anything since anyone could just go and read the Rashi or pshat for themselves” . Eexcuse me. It is Menachem Shmei who keeps on writing that Rashi says “Yacov lo mes” literally! He believes that Yacov Avinu is PHYSICALLY alive simply because of the words that Rashi writes “Yacov lo mes”. And yet you give him a pass because hes a man. But since I’m a woman, when i say that Rashi is not contradicting a b’fesrishe posuk in Veyechi which proves that Yacov mes and Rashi saying that Yacov lo mes can mean that he is spiritually alive or like the Gemorah is saying that he is alive through his descendants, that is “not interesting” “dvar Torah” because I’m a woman who didn’t learn in yeshiva”. Unbelievable.
Or do you just want everyone to shut up because Menachem Shmei spouts “mefoshim” left right and center that does not support his idology all, he just very confidently makes it seem that way.
Arso, I forgot to mention in my previous comment that the rabbi you ask about Yaacov lo mes should not be a Lubavitche rabbi as i will not take their response as valid. The question again is: is Yaacov Avinu alive physically, is his guf alive mamesh, and if yes, what does that mean? Is his gif breathing while being comatose? Eagerly awaiting your answer, the philosopher.
Arso, BTW, not to argue again over Yaacov lo mes again, but I do want to know if you took the advice you gave me to speak to a ruv or talmud chuchem if Yaacov lo mes means he is physcally alive in his kever. I told you should take that advice yourself and speak to a ruv or talmid chochem if Yaacov is physically alive while his guf is not engaging in any bodily functions (or perhaps it does, who knows…) I’m still awaiting an answer. Please post the name of the rabbi you’ve spoken to about this who said that Yaacov’s guf is alive. Thanks.
And your point is?
I’ve listened to many shuirim from talmidei chachomim on the subject of Yaacov lo mes and NONE said that Yaacov Avinu is physically alive.
So what’s your point in opening this thread? You want to “prove” as well that Yaacov Avinu is physically alive?
Lost spark, do YOU even comprehend the basics of Yiddishkeit? Do you believe the Lubavitche rebbe is physically alive, that he’s running the world, that he’s everywhere, that you can pray to him, that he never made/makes mistakes?
Ozempic is a worldwide obsession. It’s the new bandaid to compensate for the West’s overprocessed, sugary and fatty diet. It is not only the “new grift in the heimishe world”, but all the overweight celebrities are using it and literally millions of overweight and obese people globally are using Ozempic, Wegovy and similar drugs help to lose weight.
It’s really scary to see so many obese children in my community where we have an overabundance of restaurants and eateries. Ozempic is a dangerous bandaid for eating the wrong foods and being inactive.
Coffee addict, I hear you, but I not starting a new thread about “my feelings”. The fact is that Shmei was upset at the mods for letting through “personal attacks” and he shouldn’t be the one complaining about it when he does that to others, that’s all I’m saying.
Coffee addict, if there wouldn’t be references by Shmei about him being “attacked” I wouldn’t have spoken about my questions and video links to chabad rabbis. Could be I took it too personally and it wasn’t directed at me… I don’t know. I felt his post was partially directed at me and I therefore responded.
Gadolhadorah, how are my questions I’m asking, which is if they believe in the ideology the Lubavitche rabbis speak about in their videos videos ” bashing other Yidden for their beliefs and hashkafa”?
I was personally attacked in the other thread by the person who now claims in this thread that he’s getting attacked… that’s so hypocritical to complain about being personally attacked while calling me all kinds of names including “apikoros”. Now kindly all of you telling me to stop asking questions, I’m allowed to ask questions any time, any choidesh, period. If you want the “personal attacks” to stop tell the person who opened this thread to stop attacking me on the other thread.
Did I go and complain about me being attacked for being a woman who dares to respond in the other thread? Did i complain about being called an apikoras and other personal attacks on me? No, I didn’t because I understand that this is the internet with all kinds of “interesting” people on this forum saying all kinds of things in a heated things in a heated debate…
It’s totally hypocrisy to complain about something you yourself are doing to others…
Qwerty, you are totally right.
Ujm, they same things that are happening here are happening in Australia and Canada with the exception that the terrorists pouring into these two countries are mostly legal vs many terrorists coming into the US are doing so illegally.
Arso, I dont make fun of Rashi because Rashi says Yaacov lo mes (which could mean many things like he is spiritually alive, for example), he does not say that his body physically stayed alive; that is yours and Menachem Shmei’s and the Lubavitchers interpretation.
Menachem Shmei, it is you who would say eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth because that’s what it says, literally. Like you claim Rashi says Yaacov lo mes so according to you and that’s what he literally meant literally…
I never said Gemarah or pesukim should be reinterpreted, that is your twisting my words. I said that Gemarah (and meforshim) MAY SEEM on the surface to contradict pesukim but in reality they are not contradicions. When you learn things in context they come together beautifully and nothing can ever contradict a posuk in the Torah. Rashi will explain a pesuk, never contradict it.
As I’ve said repeatedly, everything has to be learnt in context. You cannot take words and text out of context and use that to “prove” anything.
The reason you believe that Rashi meant Yaacov lo mes literally as if Yaacov Avinu’s body is breathing and doing all other bodily functions as well as he’s eating and even catching some sleep all the while being buried in his kever is only because you want to be able to say your rebbe is physically alive today. That is your purpose in claming Yaacov Avinu is physically alive…and since I don’t believe that, that makes me in your eyes an apikorus, lol. Your mental twisting of logic would be really funny if it weren’t for the purposes of avodah zora which makes it really sad.
Gadolhadorah, what questions am i asking that you claim i deem to be intellectually sound? I am simply asking if what is said and shown in the videos are believed by Lubavitche in general and by the Lubavitche posters here specifically. These are not intellectual questions. They are very simple questions. What does Chodesh Elul have to do with stopping to ask whether the Lubavitche posters, and the Lubavitche in general, believe that their rebbe runs the world, believe that they can pray to their rebbe, that he’s everywhere, that he’s physically alive, and that he never makes mistakes? What is intellectual about asking if it is ok to give an aliyeh to a dead rabbi, to write a letter 30 year after his death that hes not available for the next few days because hes not feeling well, to pray to their rebbe’s chair and other such behavior? These are not intellectual questions, they are simple questions from Lubavitche about their beliefs and behavior.
Why pinkt in choidesh elul should we not ask these questions?
Arso, as usual, you misunderstood. Qwerty said he’s out of the thread. I never said I’m leaving. I said I’m not going to argue about Yaacov lo mes anymore. Why should I waste my time with people who want to believe that Yaacov Avinue is physically alive, that his body is breathing while buried under the ground, that he’s eating and his bodily functions are working while at the same time being his body is in his kever not being able to move? I’m not going to continue arguing with people who believe that.
But more importantly, I will not continue arguing with people who deny what it says outright in the Chumash that the brothers of Yosef saw their father DIED, and other pesukim that openly show that Yaacov died. They don’t understand how to understand pesukim, Chazal and meforshim which only SEEM on the surface to contradict the pesukim that say that Yaacov died, but if learnt correctly, which these people obviously can’t or don’t want to, there is no contradiction at all. The fact is that you people choose to ignore meferishe pesukim because you want to use that as a springboard to then say the Lubavitche rebbe is alive. That is the point of you all arguing that Yaacov is physically alive.
Are you talking about my video links to two Lubavitche rabbis speeches? Are you saying that showing what they say is an attack on you? Or the other link to the video that show Chabad behavior that was posted briefly and then taken down? How can you say they are “cheap means to attack other posters” when you agree with what is said and done in the videos? If you don’t think there’s anything wrong with the speeches and behavior of these Lubavitche how are these videos an attack against you? If you do think the speeches and behavior is wrong why don’t you say so? I’ve asked you numerous times if you agree to what they say and do.
These links are not attacks, these links are simply show the ideology of Chabad by showing what Lubavitche say and do between each other. If you percieve these links showing what Lubavitche really believe in to be an attacks on Lubavitche posters then you are embarrassed by the content because, despite being brainwashed with this ideology, you know that it’s wrong.
Stop being hypocritical. You ignore my questions regarding what Lubavitche believe. I post these videos to show what Lubavitche believe. If you disagree with the content of the videos then it should be embarrassing to you. If you don’t disagree with the content you cannot take it as a personal attack.
I find it incomprehensible how any “frum” person can vote for a Democrat/liberal when they support everything that is an abomination to Hashem. In addition, they have no plans to secure the border and of course, they are anti-Israel.
Qwerty, they know deep down that their worship of their rebbe is wrong and that is exactly why can’t stop “defending” their beliefs that Yaacov is buried alive, that it’s “sinas chinum” to fight against Chabad idolatry, and all other deliberately skewed beliefs they use it to “prove them right” because that is the blanket they hide under under. If the blanket is ripped away they have to face their idolatrous beliefs. They are not looking for the truth, they are dishonest. Therefore, I checked out. I’m ignoring all their arguments that are covers for their idolatrous beliefs and I’m repeating the same core questions about their beliefs that they refuse to answer.
You were the one that advised me not to engage in conversation with the snake like Chava, I suggest you do the same. Just like all who engage and engaged in idol worship throughout history, they cling to their beliefs regardless. You said yours, just let it go. We can and should talk about it their idolotry but it’s a waste of time to continue arguing with them, it is their choice to believe what they believe in.
Akuperma, I totally agree with you that Israel should become self-sufficient…or at least as self-sufficient as possible. They have the ability to produce superior weaponry and not have to rely almost completely on the US.
I find it incomprehensible how any “frum” person can vote for a Democrat/liberal when they support everything that is an abomination to Hashem. In addition, they have no plans to secure the border and of course,
Lol. The direction in which the US is headed, with masses of pro-Fakestinian protestors chanting for jihad even in Jewish neighborhoods, with Jews being attacked, with thousands of terrorists sneaking over the border, with unchecked hate speech being protected under the cover of “free speech”, you have to be blind to reality to ask that question.
Gigi, do you believe that the Lubavitche rebbe is running the world, that you can pray to him, that he’s everywhere, that he’s buried alive, that he never makes mistakes?
Yankel berel, you are exactly right. Of course their rebbe can’t be moshiach.
I’m just saying what they believe which is that he’s really alive and coming soon to bring the geulah and fulfill the prophecies…
Yankel berel, you are waiting for answers you won’t get.
Regarding Yaacov Avinu being physically alive Menachem Shmei can argue non-stop. But Menachem Shmei is eerily quiet about the Lubavitche beliefs that the rebbe is running the world, that they can pray to him, that he’s everywhere, that he never made/makes mistakes (remember he’s still physically alive so he is still not making mistakes)…
Just the same, Menachem Shmei will not answer on the Ramban’s and Rambam’s psak on a moshiach sheker not fullfilling the prophecies during their lifetimes and how it applies to their moshiach sheker because he’s afraid to tell you that he believes that his rebbe is still physically alive. He knows when he will “sound like a legitimate talmud chachum” and when he will come off looking stupid…
This is a crucial part why Lubavitche NEED their rebbe to have been buried alive because if he is still physically alive his “nevuah” can still come true.