philosopher

Joseph, you said women should stay home like Sarah Imeini. You didn’t say women should not go out much.

The fact is, today the most frum women, including Rebbetzins of big gedolim, go out shopping, to simchos, work, etc. “Much” is a relative term.

Every frum women should go out when she needs to go out, regardless if the greatest posek ever “Joseph in the YWN Coffeeroom” approves of her going out or not.

000646, it is completely false that the Fakestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are under Israeli control. That is a lie. The Fakestinians are prohibited from entering Israel without permits, they are prohibited from tunneling and trying to force their way over the border like they are doing now, but they are absolutely not under direct Israeli control. The Israelis TRY to control Hamas from getting weapons ( it is helping only to a certain extent) and control what goes in and out of Israel. They cannot control what happens in Gaza or the West Bank. It is Hamas and the PLO who control Gaza and the West Bank.

Your concern over the plight of the plight of the “poor Fakestinians” make you lack reading comprehension. I wrote that if the they would be a peaceful people they would be given Israeli citizenship. It is the Fakestinians who rejected Israeli governship and therefore they did not get citizenship.

It is mind boggling that you over and over again repeat the same arguments in support of a people who continue to express their wish to kill Jews.

000646, you think Jews can’t be Jew haters? There were enough Jew haters , meshumadim who caused many tzuras for our people, and kapos and leftist liberals who always stuck up for our enemies. Even those in full Chassidish levush, the NK’s are Jew haters. If you care about those who want to destroy us and you don’t care about the the lives and safety of Jews then you are Jew hater, period.

Yes you DID say that they don’t have their own military. So they have a semi-military with their weapons aimed at Israel. They have their own governments, Hamas and PLO, they are not under Israeli control so what exactly do you want now?!
What exactly are you blaming Israel for now?

If you are talking about Israeli Arabs, then learn some history and you will see many, many regions all over the world, don’t have the same government today as they had in the previous century. That doesn’t mean citizens can be terrorists and kill others because they want a government from the previous century . And btw, in the case of the Fakestinians, was the Ottomans or the British, they NEVER had their own government so they can’t even demand to get their “independence” back.

Now, just cause you are a Jew does not mean you are not a traitor to our people and that you are not a Jew hater. You want our enemies to have a military, which YOU DID write that earlier. Don’t you care that these are the people that continously say they want to wipe out the Jews? If you were not a Jew hater you wouldn’t be busy writing so many posts in favor of the “poor, opressed Fakestinians” who the majority of them are animals on two feet, full of violence and hate against Jews.

000646, Jew hater, you are repeating your garbage continously. The Arab Muslims had their chance of self-government when Palestine was devided in two, for Jews and Arab Muslims. But the Muslims ATTACKED the Jews and the Jews won the war. That is why Jews ended up governing these lands. And the Fakestinians still continuously attack Jews and are engaged in violence and the “struggle” to gain back ALL of Palestine and throw Jews into the sea. We don’t care about the “rights” of such a violent people , where land given to them turns into terrorist bases so they can continue their goal in killing Jews. But you don’t care about Jewish lives, all you care about is that the Fakestinians have a military. That makes you a Jew hater.

And these Fakestinians have a “government” that they voted in, corrupt, violent, terrorist officials. So stop being busy about them not having a government, they have the kind of government they voted for.

And you are ignoring the FACT that the Bedoiuns, Christians, Druze, Muslims and other non-Jewish minorities living in Israel have full citizenship and if the entire Arab Muslim population would be peaceful, those Arabs living Gaza and the West Bank under Israeli so-called “occupation” would be granted Israeli citizenship which you claim they hadn’t had. What is the problem now? They are under the PLO and Hamas governments and their responsibility now, not Israel’s. So stop harping on the citizenship and government issue. And the PLO is armed, as well as Hamas. So exactly what is your point of them “not having an army”? Do they need to defend themselves against Jordan, Lebanon or Egypt? No, it’s just that you wish they had more leverage to fight the Israelis so that they can fulfill their dreams of throwing Jews into the sea. Disgusting, filthy, Jew hater. You people chatter and plan and wish for our people’s destruction but God is greater and we will always be around.

We are also instructed by Chazal how to treat mechallel Shabbos and those who trample on halacha.

Nobody said anything about wishing anyone dead, only you are talking about such ridiculous things.

And it’s incredibly stupid ( sorry to be so blunt) that you ask if we should hold an OTD responsible for his actions…are you for real? WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS, INCLUDING OTDs.

AviK, sorry I thought you compared them to Native Americans. I see it was actually 000646 who loves the Fakestinians so much that she made them “natives” of the land…

AviK, most Fakestinians have not been living there for hundreds. Read history books and you will see that the land was mostly unhabitated.

Don’t compare the Fakestinians to Native Americans. Fakestinians are not native to Palestine. The people called Palestinians were Jews, Christians, other minorities and ALSO Muslims living in Palestine. Muslim Arab “Palestinians” are a made up nation.

000646, the Fakestinians were Israeli citizens until the “Oslo “Peace” Accord…where land was given over to these terrorists. It could be a fully Jewish state even with Gaza and the West Bank being part of Israel.

Doing my best, no peace with the Arab Muslims living in Israel will not be acheived, certainly not the way the Isrealis government is acting with always being on the defensive. The only way to deal with the Arabs is forcing them into “peace” by showing them that there’s severe consequences for their actions, not one day there’s a “peace plan” and the other day they are slapped on the wrist.

Joseph, what difference does it make that Jews defended themselves against the Arabs who kept on making the Jews’ lives miserable in the early 20th century? The Jews won the wars and that’s only because Hashem wanted it that way and it’s a huge chesed from the Aibishter. If Jews would not gain independence, they would not be able to live in todays’ current atmosphere of Arab violence, regardless if the government would also have representatives of the European and Russian anti-Semites. It is for certain that the Jewsish communities in Eretz Israel would look like the Jewsish communities in Arab countries today, dwindling and shrinking because it would be impossible because of physical safety and mental strain, to live as Jews currently do in most Muslim countries.

akuperma, give me a break, these Muslim Arabs can be part of Israel as other Arabs are. No one is keeping them stateless but their own actions. Jews live in Muslim countries too, the Fakestinians can live as citizens in Israel. And while I would like every Jew to live like a Jew, I fail to see how peace would be acheived if all Isrealis become frum. The Fakestinians live in a culture of violence, many Arabs are busy killing each other today, certainly they have no issue doing that to Jews, so how exactly will peace be acheived if all Jews in Israel are frum?

Sure, I think the bloodthirsty, Jew hating liars from Europe and the Islamic fundamentalists who killed hundreds of thousands in recent years, would make an excellent government for the Jews in Israel … The fact that a huge percentage of goyim have a problem with Jews defending our lives from vicious terrorists and they always stick up for the “poor” Fakestinians, and turn a blind eye to the genuine hatred that exists in those who continue to do terror, would make them fantastic rulers over the Jews, they would certainly care about us…NOT!

Hateful, anti-Semitic people, make up at least 70% of the European, Russian, and Arab Muslim populations. They are descendents, especially Europeans and Russians of the most viscous murderers who murdered and persecuted our ancestors for over 2 millennium and they wouldn’t give a damn if the Arab Muslims, who have been persecuting and killing hundreds of thousands of their own people in recent years, and they have a most violent history too, decide to “take care” of the infidel Jews, c”v.

The Zionists, even the secular ones, are my brothers and sisters. I feel safe walking the streets in Israel while I wouldn’t want to put my pinky over the Gazan border so I don’t think it’s a good idea to make “peace” with such a “peaceloving” people. I hope and daven that the secular Jews should return to the Torah. I also think the majority of Israeli Jews believe in Hashem. I’d rather they govern Israel, I feel much safer (an understatement) with a Jewish government. Please don’t preach to me how Hashem is protecting us and not the Israeli government and IDF. You can say the same about the government in the USA and the American army…Hashem is protecting us so we don’t need the government…it’s stupid argument, we have to do hishtadlus, and this is the most REALISTIC situation for the SAFETY of Jews in Israel, to have a Jewish government. Of course, only Hashem can guarantee our safety, that doesn’t mean we can be stupid.

Doing my best, so Jews want a Jewish country? Europeans want European countries, Arabs wants Arab countries and Jews want a Jewish country. What’ so bad about that as long as there’s no persecution of other minorities living in the country? Everyone has a right to protect their culture from those trying erase it. And in Israel’s case it is not only the culture, but it’s the Jews, the Muslims want to destroy.

Isrealis are not against Arabs having Israeli citizenship. Druze and Christian Arabs (and many non-Jewish minorities) are Isrealis and no one objects to that. It is the Muslims who live and breathe violence and want to destroy Isreal, so Israelis don’t want to live next to them because the are threatened by them, many of which are nothing more than wild beasts on two feet.

Nevertheless, these Muslims are not planning on giving up their “dream” of “reclaiming their land” by bloodshed, c”v. That’s why the “peace-process” is nothing more than a pipe dream for many irrational people.

Laskern, that’s how I look it as well, Hashem is the source of all energy. Matter, which is all physical things in existence, is energy, energy=matter. So to create matter, to create every physical thing, there needs to be a greater source of energy, the threshold energy, which is greater than the matter particles (pair of fermions) which create matter. I believe Hashem is the threshold of energy, or maybe not the threshold itself but the Infinite Source that provides the threshold for the creation of energy, which equals all matter, gashmius, in the universe.

Hashem is also the source of ruchnius, spirituality, which I believe is also a form of energy because souls and spirits enable life. I remember reading in one of Rabbi Aryeh Kaplans books that there is a misconception that God is spiritual. God is not spiritual, He created spirituality and He is above spirituality and the source of it.

No problem, I always stick up for people when I don’t a reason for them to be called a troll or other such names. In this thread where you have said valid points to i fail to see how you were a troll. But I do have to say you stubbornly stick to your opinions so that could be very irritating to many people (including.me…).

Now I don’t want to rehash that old argument, especially on this thread. But as I’ve said, you cannot learn halacha from Tanach without meforshim. The term “master” meanz many things as I’ve PROVED on the other thread . You bve brought 2-3 sources that support your argument, but so have I ( you can check it out if you didn’t yet). I could bring more sources but since I never learned Gemorah and I’m not really in the mood for learning tons of meforshim now on this particular topic, nor am I interested in sitting hours online Googling this topic, I’m just not interested in bringing more sources unless I’m struck by enthusiasm to do more research. The bottom line is if there’s a heavy package and the husband wants the wife to carry it and the wife wants the husband to carry and they call up a Rabbi to pasken l’halacha if the wife is required to due her “master’s” bidding and carry the heavy package, the Rabbi will say to the husband not to be a shoita and carry the package if he knows what’s good for him…I’ve personally witnessed a Muslim woman carrying heavy grocery bags from the car while her husband walked into the apartment building with only the car keys in his hand …that is not the Jewish way. That’s IS a master and servant relationship and it is not, nor ever was, the Torah way.

It’s very understandable for mosdos to honor those who support them, they need the money after all and honoring people seems to be working for them as a way to bring in the desperately needed dollars. Personally, I don’t get why someone craves the honor, but after giving of a lot of effort or money to a mosdos I can see why some may want the acknowledgement.

I never voted for who the “machers” decided the community should vote for, who cares what they say? That the majority of people do follow like sheep whatever these machers tell them to, is not these “machers” problem, it’s the people’s problem, unless they actually do agree with whom they were told to vote for … But you certainly don’t have to vote for politicians because others decided for you whom to vote for, just do what you think is right. It is more problematic the fact that frum people endorse politicians who stand for issues that are against Torah values.

In any case, what exaclty does being honored and who gets to endorse politicians have anything to with being frum?!

Joseph, are you referring to the Level Tahor “Chassidus”? …Just kidding, btw.

Buying gold jewelry for investment is not a good idea. You get around 1/3 of the price you paid for it. The value in jewelry is only for gold scrap. So you get only the current scrap gold prices, which is usually a third of what you bought it for unless you keep it for 10+ years, with inflation and all, maybe you’ll get it for what you paid. Unless gold really skyrockets from the price you paid for the jewelry , like when it shot up from $800 up to 1600$ in a matter of months, you usually get much less than what you bought it for. But that rarely happens. It has been relatively stable at approximately $1200 for years already.

It is better to invest in scrap gold. You don’t pay for labor, designers, many middlemen, etc. . You get way more for a bar of gold than a peice of jewelry.

Not that my own opinion is shayach in my situation…I can’t pay $1000 now for a bar of now and have it lying in my attic for 10 years …

Ubiquitin, Sephardim have lived in Amsterdam, the US, France, and other European countries and cities since their ancestors fled the Inquisition from Spain, Portugal, etc, which are countries in EUROPE. There are numerous old Sephardic shuls in all over Europe. The beginning of the Sephardim is similar to Ashkenazim who immigrated to Europe from Greece and the Levant.

Not as many Ashkenazim have emigrated to the Middle East over the centuries but there were pockets of communities and individual Ashkenazim who immigrated to the ME, most notably the Ashkenazim living in Israel over the past few centuries.

akuperma, it was not only the Middle Eastern soldiers they boughtt, he Romans themselves are descendents from the Hitites as well as other civilizations from the Levant. And of course, they assimilated with other races wherever they went.

Generally, Europeans originated from the Middle East and Asia, even the Frech and Germans. That’s why the alphebets have Semitic roots.

I don’t think these tests are accurate. Besides for Africans, most people globally are descendents of immigrants and mixed races. How do they have markers to test these “races”? The Sephardi and Ashkenazi groups are only a few hundred years old, how can they test Ashkenazi and Sephardim ancestry (as opposed to Michzrachim that were a distinct group from hundreds of years longer)? Sephardim have lived in Europe, not only in the Middle East and Africa, since the Spanish Inquisition, so how can they tell apart people by their genes when they lived on the same continents and in the same countries? Are minhugim part of their genes?

Identical twins and triplets who took these DNA tests often had completely different results from one another and regardless of all these “scientific” explanations, I’m not buying it. Siblings, especially if they are identical, should have the same, or very similar, genes makeup.

The Netziv denies that men own their wives, as I assume Joseph is trying to “prove” with his continuously saying men are “masters” over their wives. And which point I refuted by showing that “masters” does not technically mean that others, whether they are wives, students or Yisroeilim are “subjegated” to the whims of their “masters” and obligated to biddings of their supposed their “masters” i.e. husband’s, Rabbis, and Cohanim, indiscriminately…The word “masters” is an English word. The original Loshen Hakodesh words that can translate to word “master” come in many forms, but the point is that these words define a PART of a relationship and doesn’t necessarily mean that the entire relationship revolves around a “master” subjegating his “servants” rather that within certain relationships there are certain rights one has, or certain rules that one must obey, to be able for the relationship to function correctly.

The Netziv says that proof that the husband does not own the wife is the fact that a husband is obligated to support a wife (Kesubos 58b) however a wife can opt out of this partnership by declaring herself independent (so that her wage will not have to go to her husband) and the husband is not obligated to support her anymore. This is in direct contrast to a slave who has no opt out options of declaring himself financially independent.

The Netziv says that a husband only owns SPECIFIC rights to his wife, these rights I will not bring up here, one can do their own research if they desire to do so. However, these rights have nothing in common with a women being “subservient” to her husband, as Joseph would like us to believe.

Many Rishonim state specifically that husband’s do not own their wives, for example see Rashba on kiddushin in 6b.

I am NOT a Torah scholar, nor do I have the time at this point in time to look up the MANY sources on this issue. However, I am simply bringing these sources now just to show that there are out there.

If I have more time, I will more research.

As I said, to quote pesukim and claim that one’s own view of the meaning of the posek translates into “halacha” is a dangerous view. According to the “translation” of masters or rulers in the Torah, a rebbi can be called a master over a student as could a Cohen be a master over a Yisroel. Does this give an halachik right to a rebbi or Cohen to use the student or the Yisroel as a servant ? Is the student or Yisroel a personal servant to their master or masters? It’s such a ridiculous insinuation that it is laughable, just as it is laughable that a husband is master over his wife or rules over his wife in a way that she is a servant to her husband. It’s despicable and ridiculous to think along those lines in terms of supposedly physical power the Torah supposedly gives for the “masters” over the “subservients”. That is not what the Torah means and anyone who has any understanding of Judaism understands the relationship of Rabbis and students and Cohanim and Yisreolim and anyone with a healthy mental capacity also understands that the relationship of a husband and wife in Judasim has no relation to a master and slave type of relationship.

The fact that it says in Bereishis 3:16 that the husband will rule over the wife is not any indication of any halacha that the wife must do her husband’s bidding discriminately, nor it is not any indication that a husband and wife relationship means that the wife is a servant to her husband. This posek means that women were cursed, after Chava convinced Adam to eat from the eitz hadas, that men will be a stronger force in marriage. Men were cursed as well to toil in the fields for their bread ( i.e. work hard for their parnasoh). It is a curse, not a halacha, that men are masters in marriage.

Bereishis 18:12 That Sara Imaeinu called her husband “master” is an indication of respect to her husband and not an indication that she was a servant or had a servant/master type of relationship with Abraham Avinu.

Chabadshlucha, what you write regarding women in general giving in (and everything else you wrote as well) is so true. Women generally do care more about their relationships. And usually women also care more how things affect the entire family as well and will therefore give in so that the family can function normally instead of being in a state of war or tension. And this is takeh a curse, as you write. There is no halacha stating that women must give in. But at the same time women are givers as Hashem is gives to us (as the Sages teach us this is what the bracha sheusani kirtzono means), so although it is a curse because it is not easy to give in, we still thank Hashem for creating us as givers.

Chabadshlucha, I am a woman and am not sufficiently learnt enough to bring down the exact sources that would point to the superiority of women. But as we know, in some places it is bought down that women are on a higher spiritual plane than me and therefore are exempt from many mitzvos because we don’t need these mitzvos to bring us closer to Hashem. But I’m too busy, especially now with cooking for Yom Tov meals, and honestly too lazy as well, to do all the research and post the relevant sources.

To Joseph I say, if I were to post these sources that state that women are superior and are smarter in certain ways because of our binah yesierah and bring the sources stating that men should listen to their wives and that women are superior spiritually to men, would it not be ridiculous of me to quote these sources and make a blanket statement in general are superior then men?

According to the Torah AND Rabbinical sources,men have strengths and weaknesses as separate genders AND as individuals. No one is superior or subservient based on their genetics. We build ourselves spiritually through our actions. Therefore, if a man is not acting the way he’s supposed to or making ridiculous and irrational demands of his wife, then a wife listening to such a husband and being subservient to him, then is nothing more than a chossid shoita. No person can be degraded because we are not suberservient to the other gender. We are only suberservient to Hashem!