philosopher

Neville, I am Chassidish. As I said, after arguing here for some time I asked a well learnt person if he thinks Yaacov lo mes means that Yaacov is still physically alive. Well, that person is Chassidish and looks like he learnt the meaning of what Rashi is saying differently than you.

You keep on repeating over and over again about “rejecting Rashi or laughing at the Rashi”. That is simply ridiculous. Just because you interpret the Rashi (or was taught to interpret it) to mean that Yaacov’s body is physically alive (and Rashi does not explicitly say that) does not mean that others who were taught differently are “rejecting Rashi or laughing at Rashi”.

Qwerty, you are surely not saying “He knew that the men would be Shlichim and he didn’t want them to look at other women so he made sure that their wives are pretty. On the other hand he made the men ordinary looking so that the local women won’t chase after them” in a literal sense…

Arso,

The Raavad is talking about who is a min. I can’t answer for others why they believed what they believed.

For me it’s very clear from the Torah, that Hashem has no guf.

I mean if you have an explanation how someone can believe Hashem is corporeal from the three examples I bought then go ahead and tell me.

How can Hashem have a guf if He was in existence before He created the universe/matter was created?

How can Hashem have a guf and be in the heaven and on earth at the same time?

How can Hashem have a guf when a guf has form and it says in the pasuk that Hashem has no form?

Neville,

I wrote “The Torah doesn’t work with “flat out” anything. Thats why with Yaacov Avinu, the Torah does not say mes when it says he expired and yet further down it does say mes because everything has a reason why things are written the way it is.” With the Torah first only saying expired and not mes but then later saying mes, it is not saying flat out anything about Yaacov Avinu’s death either. And yet you wrote,”“The Torah doesn’t work with “flat out” anything.” Except for when it talks about Yaakov being dead?” What the Torah says about Yaakov’s death IS NOT FLAT OUT anything, it needs to be unwrapped and studied just like everything else in the Torah. Exactly as I said, nothing in the Torah is flat-out anything, including Yaacov’s death.

You write, “However, my stake in this argument has never had anything to do with Chabad. I never really cared about that. I just came here to tell you that the way you were talking about Rashi’s pshat was extremely unsettling and was hurting your case more than it was helping. Are you asking why I’m not telling Menachem Shmei that he sounds unusual or outlandish in his arguments? Simple, because in his community he isn’t. It’s not my place to tell him how or how not to be a Lubavitcher. Within the context of his community, he seems very mainstream and normal.”

And therefore, because in Shmei’s Lubavitche community it’s OK to deliberately misinterpret the Gemorah, deliberately misinterpret meforshim, deliberately misinterpret Ramban and Rambam therefore you are busy harping on me instead of him? Is he writing his misinterpretations on a Chabad website? No, he’s writing it here. The fact that you don’t speak against his deliberate misinterpretations of Chazal and meforshim to “support” his outright idolatry is simply because you don’t care about a “Rashi being misinterpreted ” (according to you), you just care that your ego was hurt. Your constant arguing with me is not l’shem shomayim at all.

As I said before, YOU and others, are interpreting Rashi to mean that Yaacov’s guf is physically alive. No talmud chuchem and no yiras shomayim is laughing at what Rashi is saying c”v. They just find it amusing that there are people who interpret what Rashi is saying to mean that Yaacov’s guf is physically alive in his kever.

Neville, There are many places in the Torah that show that God does not have a guf.

The Torah doesn’t work with “flat out” anything. Thats why with Yaacov Avinu, the Torah does not say mes when it says he expired and yet further down it does say mes because everything has a reason why things are written the way it is. I say it over and over again. I will repeat, the Torah, every verse, every word, every letter, must be learnt within context and everything has meaning.

The Torah is not meant to spoonfeed unthinking humans.

We see clearly from the Torah, that Hashem has no guf. Now of course, we need Chazal and meforshim to explain the Torah in all aspects as I’ve said that many times. That does not mean Chazal and meforshim contradict the Torah, neither with halachos nor hashkafa nor anything else. The Torah is the Word of Hashem, no one can contradict the Torah.

Hashem has no guf, that is clearly taught by the Torah. If anyone wants to see otherwise so that they have an excuse to worship avodah zora, they could. I said over and over again, it is very easy to “prove” whatever someone want the Torah to prove if they disregard the context of every letter, every word every posuk, every chapter, every parshah, the entire Torah, and quote of context.

We see from the Torah that Hashem created the world. He existed before He created the universe. The universe is physical matter and since He existed before physical matter was created, Hashem is not a physical being.

Devarim 4:39
וְיָדַעְתָּ הַיּוֹם וַהֲשֵׁבֹתָ אֶל־לְבָבֶךָ כִּי יְהֹוָה הוּא הָאֱלֹהִים בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל וְעַל־הָאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת אֵין עוֹד׃
Can a human being be in the heaven above and earth below at the same time?

Devarim 4:15
וְנִשְׁמַרְתֶּם מְאֹד לְנַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם כִּי לֹא רְאִיתֶם כׇּל־תְּמוּנָה בְּיוֹם דִּבֶּר יְהֹוָה אֲלֵיכֶם בְּחֹרֵב מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵשׁ
A physical body has a shape, Hashem does not have a shape.

There are many ways that the Torah tells us that Hashem has no physical guf. The point is, that if thinks, after reading Tanach, one can still think that Hashem has a guf, it is because they are deliberately trying to misinterpret the Torah.

You write, “I’m not going to call you an apikorus as others have, but it’s just extremely gaavadik and immature to keep acting like you have the key to all correct understanding and none of the rest of us do. ”

Lets be clear, I dont know what you or anyone was taught. I dont know who you are. Not do I care to know. Nor do i care if you believe that Rashi is saying that Yaacov lo mes means that he’s physically alive in his kever.

After arguing here sometime, I wanted to hear from someone who I know knows Chumash, Rashi, Gemorah very well. Maybe he was taught differently than you in cheder, maybe because the person who gives his daf yomi shuir is a big talmud chuchem and teaches taanus 5b very well, but he chuckled when I asked him if he believes that Yaacov Avinu is physically alive in his kever. He thinks it’s funny that people believe that. Secondly, the talmidei chachumim who I listened to their shuirim on Yaacov lo mes none of them said, or even indicated, that it means that his guf is physically alive. No, the reasons they gave what Rashi means with Yaacov lo mes were varied, but not that his guf is alive.

You, the supposed defender of Chazal and meforshim, are so riled up about me saying that Rashi saying “Yaakov lo mes” means that Rashi is saying that Yaacov himself, or Yaacov’s guf, is alive in a spiritual capacity. However, when Menachem Shmei misinterpreted what the Gemorah in Taanis is saying, misinterpreted many meforshim, you have no issue with that. You do not argue with him, you do not denounce him, you ignore his misinterpretations. I bought the exact texts of the meforshim so that everyone can see how he misconstrued meforshim, and yet you ignored it all and you are busy arguing with me non-stop about what Rashi means with “Yaacov lo mes”. The reason for that is because your anger is not l’shem shomayim. Your continuous arguing with me over the intentions of Rashi on the words “Yaacov lo mes” is not l’shem shomayim. If misinterpretations of Chazal and meforshim would bother you you would condemn Shmei. You would argue with Shmei. Your ego has become bruised because i dont agree with you, that is all that bothers you.

I read an article somewhere about a ben yochid being very resentful. He has to get up Shabbos and Y”T to go daven while his sisters sleep in, he has to get up early for slichos, he has to get up 5:30 every day to go to yeshiva and comes home very late at night while his sisters wake up two hours laters and come home much earlier from school, etc.. B’kitzur, he’s resentful for having to work harder. And yet I’m sure he’s not interested in doing laundry and cooking and doing all other “baal habustishe” stuff.

So basically what I’m saying, as a woman who is more intellectually inclined and hates cooking, cleaning and doing repetitive, humdrum housework, that it’s is a package deal. I promise you, want do not want to be a man.

Don’t worry about your husband “lording” over you. I vintch you you should find a husband who is a yirei shomayim and baal middos, and if you have good middos as well you’ll build a happy, peaceful home together without him “lording” over you. Yes, you will follow his minhugim and he’ll have the last word which moisdos your sons will attend, but “lording” over you is definitely not something you need to worry about. It also says a woman should be an ezer K’NEGDO, the woman should help the man by being against him when he wants to do something wrong. That does not mean you will be busy fighting him just as he will not be “lording” over you.

I do not think you have kinas sofrim. In this day and age people suffer from not appreciating the tremendous gifts that Hashem gave us and wanting things they can’t have. This brings depression and jealousy which are both aveiros (i know today depression is classified as a mental health issue but its an aveirah-people get in that headspace because they dont appreciate what Hashem gives them). Being who you are is a gift. You have tremendous koichos in you and you can only reach your potential by being the best who you are. You can serve Hashem perfectly well by being a woman. If you are intellectually inclined, learn sefarim, you don’t have to bake cakes. (But you do have to cook supper, clean and do the laundry when you get married or even now if your mother needs your help… ) Life is a balance between our personalities and our duties which can be conflicting. But Hashem does not make mistakes. He made you the way you are and that means that you need to serve Him in the capacity of being you. Whoever you are is a gift, your strength and weaknesses are gifts, your personality is a gift, your body is a gift. Hashem gave you have so many gifts. What will bring you happiness is serving Him the way He wants you to serve Him.

Qwerty, to tell you the truth, I didn’t read every word that Shmei wrote. Perhaps his arguments sometimes sounded conflicting so it couldn’t be understood exactly what he is saying. I myself never read anything clear and consice what he wrote, it was all over the place.

What i do know is that every time I said that Yaacov is alive in a spiritual sensee, not physically , he asked me but what about this mefoiresh and that mefoirsh that says otherwise. One of the meforshim he kept mentioning as contradicting to what I said that Yaacov is alive spiritually is the “Maharsha”.

Qwerty, they are allowed to personally attack me constantly with lies and put-downs but they have issues with you attacking them personally….talk about hypocritical.

Meanwhile, none of them,
Shmei
Neville
Arso
Lostspark
Can name one rav who says Yaacov’s guf is physically alive.

Also meanwhile, none of the Lubavitche cheering squad cared about Shmei’s total misinterpretations of the Ramban and Maharsha and Lostspark’s misinterpretation of R Bachay. All I did was simply copy the text which says the truth about what these meforshim are saying which proves the “talmid chuchem Shmei” to be a total faker.

Shmei claims the Maharsha says Yaacov is physically alive.

The Maharsha says:
אבל יעקב אבינו שמת בחו”ל היה לבעל דין לומר דאינו חי כמותן ולזה אמר דאף הוא חי וכאלו מת בא”י וא”ל וכי בכדי חנטו כו’ ומהיכא תיתי לך שהוא חי יותר משאר מתים שבח”ל וא”ל מקיש כו’ הנני מושיעך מארץ רחוק דהיינו ממצרים בחיים כאלו אתה מת בא”י כמו זרעך יוסף שבא ממצרים ארץ שביו בחיים לשם:

The lying of that idol worshipper is a tragicomedy. Also funny, as well as a tragedy, is that people are so quick to side with someone who sounds legitimate and knowledgeable without investigating matters themselves. How easy it is to shlep others into believing nonsense.

Yankel berel, you wrote, “It seems that RAMBAN and R BACHAY disagree with RASHI. They are stating their own opinion, not like RASHI.”

Ok. Perhaps.

The thing is, I didn’t bring any meforshim to “prove” anything. I am merely bringing the meforshim, at this point in the argument, that were twisted out of context when they tried to “prove that Rashi meant that Yaacov is physically alive” to show that they were totally and deliberately misinterpreted. Even the Gemorah 5b:9 was misinterpreted. This is how they teach “avodah zora style”, by deliberate misinterpretations and word salads.

It is simply unbelievable that Shmei and Arso are trying to argue that the Ramban “proves that Yaacov’s guf is alive” when he is very, very clearly saying that Yaacov is alive spiritually!

This is the power of avodah zora, where they try to obscure the truth, where they lie outright, where they introduce confusion, where they twist reality and what our Torah teaches us, just so that it could align with their idolatrous ideology.

The Lubavitche Rebbe is dead, he is not alive in his kever ” like Yaacov Avinu is physically alive in his kever”. The Lubavitche rebbe is not moshiach, he is dead. The Lubavitche rebbe is a person you are attributing divine attributes to because a person who died and was buried cannot be physically alive so you turned him into an idol with deity-like powers. You believe he never died, that he is running the world, that you can pray directly to him, that he is everywhere, that he never “makes” mistakes. Shame on you.

You invented a new religion. It is almost the exact replica of the Christian religion. Your children will hold the Lubavitche rebbe in higher regard than Hashem just like the Christians did with their religion. Their father-god was reduced to a “person of the same substance as the universe” because he couldnt be on a higher plane than Yoshke who was born a human being and yet takes the center stage in their religion… Yoshke who started out as their moshiach but never came back is now their god… Its disgusting. The new Chabadianity is equally disgusting.

Lostspark, thanks for being concerned about me. But you have nothing to worry about. I’m married so you can save your prayers for other important matters.

Shmei, no, we were discussing both Rashis, on the posuk and on the Gemorah. Obviously, if I talk about Rashi saying Yaacov lo mes I’m talking about the Rashi on the posuk in Chumash.

Yankel berel, I am not the one to have bought the Ramban originally, this is my response to Shmei and Arso who have referred to it many times on this thread and I simply bought the complete version what the Ramban is saying which is clearly that Yaacov lo mes means that Yaacov is alive in a sense.

So my question to you is why didn’t you tell Shmei and Arso who were arguing what the Ramban says on Rashi, why didn’t you tell them that what you told me “@philosopher Quoting RAMBAN does not convince anyone of shitat RASHI”? NOW you are saying that when I bought the complete Ramban so everyone can see exactly what the Ramban is saying?

When they “quote” the Ramban and other meforshim out of context, no one has an issue. When I bring exactly what the Ramban says, in the entire context, all of a sudden it doesn’t prove anything….

Now, I will take the Ramban’s and Rabbeinu B’Chaya’s explanation that Yaacov lo mes means Yaacov is alive in a spiritual sense and in a second spiritual body over your insistence that it means that Yaacov’s brain is alive.

Neville, what’s the point of your argument?

I said you can bring a rishon on a posuk too but they don’t contradict the Torah. They expound and explain the Torah.

משה אמת ותרתו אמת

The Torah never changes.

Halacha never changes, Chazal, Rishonim, Achroinim, etc. never contracted halacha in the Torah and neither did they contradict anything else written in the Torah.

Rashi is saying Yaacov lo mes. I am not saying that Rashi is not saying that Yaacov is alive. The question is what alive means. You are INTERPRETING alive to mean that the body that was embalmed and buried and what the Torah says the brothers said “mes” on is physically alive. I’m saying alive means in a spiritual sense.

End of discussion. If you have PROOF that what I’m saying is wrong then I’ll listen. I’m not interested in hearing your opinion.

Arso, Rashi said something, I had no question on it. And read the full text of the Ramban which you obviously didn’t bother to do…

Shmei claimed there’s a Rif, Or Hachayim AND the Rif on the Ein Yaacov. I said I don’t have a sefer of ein yaacov. As for the Rif, yes from the 11th century I looked and looked and there’s nothing on Yaacov lo mes! Don’t you and Shmei fardrey me a kup when Shmei mentions the Rif, another two other meforshim in between and then the Rif again on Ein Yaacov that I’m mixing up the two Rif’s!

As for the Ramban I bought down the FULL VERSION IN CONTEXT in one of my last posts. YOU obviously didn’t bother checking the Ramban! Or if you did then you are lying by omission!

I’m certainly not combing through the posts again but are you seriously saying now that you and Shmei didn’t argue that Yaacov is physically alive in his kever?! Unbelievable!!!! What dishonesty! But the truth is I knew from the beginning that I’m arguing with dishonest people so I’m not surprised.

Okay so what you are NOW saying is that Rashi is saying that Yacov lo mes means that he is alive…wow! How impressive! I also said throughout the entire thread that Rashi is saying that. What’s you point in arguing with me then?

Qwerty, I never said Yaacov’s departure from this world wasn’t unusual. As it says ויגוע and not מת. His departure from this world was certainly unusual and i never argued otherwise. I said his guf is not physically alive otherwise they would not have (partially) embalmed and buried him. Furthermore, later in the parshah it says that the brothers saw that Yaacov died.

Yaacov’s guf is not physically alive, that what I said.

His death was unusual and he his guf is alive in a spiritual sense.

Lost spark, .די גלויבסט און דיין רבי אלטס דיין אפגאט, ביסט אן אפיקורוס. די גלייבסט און דיין געטשקע אז ער לעבט אויף אייביג, אז ער פירט דו וועלט דו דאווענסט צו אים. ס’איז גרויליג דיין עבודה זרה דינען

Arso, so when will I hear from you which rabbi or talmud chuchem agrees that Yaacov was buried alive and is currently alive in his grave?

Seems like it’s easier for you to call me an apikorus because I don’t agree with your interpretation of a Rashi so you don’t bother clarifying your interpretation that contradicts a posuk in the Torah. That is really childish of childish of you.

Menachem Shmei, I remember arguing with you about Yaacov being buried. But perhaps I remember that wrong. I’m not going to reread the thread again to see if I am wrong here so I’ll say that if you didn’t argue about it then it’s my mistake. Sorry.

About Arso himself not saying that Yaacov is physically alive; if you say that you have to believe that Yaacov is physically alive because Rashi is (according to Arso) saying that Yaacov is physically alive otherwise you’re an apokiros as I was called for not believing that that is what Rashi is saying, and arguing the entire thread that that is what Rashi means, you can’t go hide under that cover now and say, I didn’t say it, Rashi says it. Because you did say it. You said it because you think that Rashi said it. I dont believe that Rashi means that he’s physically alive. Arso and you believe that that’s what Rashi says and you argued on that point, period.

Neville says “Irrelevant. We don’t bring proofs from straight pasukim pretty much ever. This is the kind of thing I’m talking about. I get the temptation to say “well you’re bringing a rishon? I’ll bring an even better proof, a passuk from the Torah itself!” For better or for worse, that’s not how the Orthodox world works.”

When you want to have a Talmudic discussion you can bring a rishon. But to say that the comment that Rashi is making on a pasuk contradicts another posuk in the Chumash is absolutely ridiculous and disgusting. Rashi did not contradict the Word of Hashem.

Do you know that anyone can “prove” anything from such type of “learning” that you claim is the legitimate way?

You, like the others, keep parroting that Rashi means that Yaacov’s guf is alive is the mainstream understanding. So, please bring me any reputable rabbi that says that that is the meaning that Rashi means- that Yaacov’s guf is alive in his kever. Still waiting to hear from Arso, and now from you.

In my last comment that I addressed to Neville I wrote the ” the Torah says many literal things”…

I meant to write that the Torah says many things which is not meant to be interpreted in a physical sense. As an example, the Torah talks about “the arm of Hashem”. Does Hashem have a physical arm? No, He doesn’t.

Qwerty, the same thing happened to Menachem Shmei. First he was arguing with me that Yacov wasn’t buried. When I showed him that the posuk says that Yacov was buried, he backtracked. The same thing is now happening with Arso. First he argues on the entire thread that Yacov is PHYSICALLY alive because “Rashi says so”. Now he’s backtracking that he never said it. Well, Rashi never said that Yacov’s guf is alive, that was Arso’s own interpretation of Rashi. And he got caught when I told him to ask a reputable rav or talmud chuchem if Yacov Avinu is physically alive in his kever. I’m still waiting to hear back from him with whom he spoke to about Yacov being physically alive in his kever…

Happy new year got it right.

Chazal and meforshim do NOT contradict the Torah ever. I’ve said that over and over and over again. If you think that they do YOU are learning pshat wrong. Chazal and later meforshim NEVER contradicted a posuk in the Torah, period. Not Rashi, not Ramban, nobody. The Torah is the Word of the Living God. The Torah is the Truth. The Torah is eternal. If that’s what YOU take out of learning Mishnayos, Gemorah, Rashi, whatever else you are learning which seems to contradict a posuk in the Torah YOU are learning pshat wrong which most often comes from learning things out of context. I’ve said so many times, you cannot take a one posuk or a few words from the Tanach or Gemorah or whatever you are learning and build your empire on it. Everything needs to be learnt in context.

If you are basing your conclusions on a posuk or word you are doing like the Christians who take a posuk or word and misconstrue it. It is very easy to do so. To understand the Torah you need to know everything that the Torah says on that particular thing you are trying to understand, you need to know the context. Meforshim often are the keys to understanding the Torah. If you think that a mefoiresh is refuting or contradicting a posuk in the Torah YOUR understanding of that mefoiresh is wrong.

Now, if there is a sefer on the market that teaches pshat that contradicts a posuk in the Torah or a mefoiresh that contradicts a pusok in the Torah then that wrong. I do not believe though that there is any mefoiresh contradicts a posuk in the Torah. If it seems to contradict the posuk it’s because the one who is learning pshat is learning it wrong.

As for the Rashi which many of claim i am saying I am not believing what he says, you are all lying. I never said Rashi is wrong. Stop with your lies. I am saying that Rashi does NOT CONTRADICT any posuk in the Torah, period. Therefore, if it says in the Torah that the brothers of Yosef saw that their father DIED, Rashi who knew Torah better than you, did not mean to say what you are saying he is which is that his GUF was alive. That is YOUR conclusion. If you know Torah and Chazal and meforshim well you understand that “alive” can have many forms. Rashi is NOT saying that Yacov lo mes means that Yacov’s guf is alive. Yacov lo mes can mean that his soul is alive or he is alive through his descendants or any which way meforshim explain what alive means without the guf being alive because it says clearly in the Torah that Yacov died.

Menachem Shmei, nope, that is not true. It is not only ahuirim I heard from other talmidei chachumim on Yacov lo mes. I have looked at the gemorah you quoted and many meforshim and none of them said what you were trying to them twist into. As for the ein yacov that i wasnt able to verify, ive said in the last thread, it is weird that that the only place that brings the iyin yacov you write about is from you and another Chabad article online. As i said before, i dont have a copy of the ein yacov and im not planning to buy it just for purposes of this thread. We covered that extensively in the last thread and I’m not going back there arguing over this topic again.

Now, you say “Truth. Truth. Truth. Torah. Torah. Torah.”
So I ask you again, I’ve lost track how many times I’ve asked you and you didn’t answer me. If you claim to be for the truth why don’t you tell everyone what you hold to be the truth? Why do you dodge my questions?

Do you believe that the Lubavitche rebbe is running the world, that you can pray directly to him, that he never died and that he never made mistakes, that he is everywhere?

If you claim to be for the truth you would answer my questions. Either you believe in what I asked you or not. Whatever hashkafas you have, it is the truth for you so why be evasive about them?