philosopher

I will not continue a dialogue with people who constantly lie and twist what I say. They are either not the brightest fellows around and cant follow the conversation or their ego makes them twist and lie about what I write. In any case, I’m not going to waste my time anymore with these two liars. Ciao.

Skripa, you write :
“1) Ask around the right way and you’ll find that there is a very large contingent of frum women who just don’t believe any longer. They go through the motions, but they were disenfranchised so they no longer care.”
They are disenfranchised because they are immersed in the social media secular culture, not because they can’t do what men do. These disenfranchised women should first do what they are mechayiav to do before wanting supposedly to “grow spiritually by doing what the men do”. These disenfranchised women are not following their chiyuv to dress modestly, they wear zonah length wigs, tight clothing that shows their womenly bumps on all sides, oftentimes don’t wear stockings, wear short skirts, etc, they look like sluts, they can’t do one mitzva they are mechiyev in and yet they cry crocodile tears that they can’t do what the men are doing…im sure they want to daven in shul three times a day…not!

“2) Women, in practice, learn better than men when given a chance. Compare your average 17-22 year old women’s knowledge of Halacha to your average man of the same age. It’s shameful that the girl will be able to run circles around the boy. And it’s not just because focus isn’t put on Halacha in boy’s Yeshivas. both genders learn Chumash and what the females learn is miles ahead of the boys. I love hocking in learning with my more modern female cousins because they have a tremendous clarity and desire to know, which I see less by men, who are mostly learning the maarei mekomos their magid shiur put up. Once they get married they get shunted off into the mommy role so they don’t have as much opportunity, but if they would, they would be the top kollelim.

I think we should be teaching gemara to girls. No reason not to. In the 100 years of organized women’s learning, they have shown that they are a benefit, not a liability. It is currently just a system trying to protect mediocre men that is blocking it now.”

Women are not smarter than men and vice versa. There are men who learn well and women who learn well. There are men who don’t understand Gemorah well and there are women who don’t understand gemorah well. One gender is not smarter than the other and vice versa.

You love hocking with your more modern female cousins. If they can hock in gemorah why are they modern (modern means they are more into secular culture). Absolutely women should not learn Gemorah in school or sem. You can learn on your own if you enjoy it so much. Hocking gemorah does not make a woman a yiras shomayim which is what we should strive for, not “equality”.

Hashem who created us with gender roles and you, with your modern thinking, are trying to confuse the roles which we are mechiyev to live with. The secular world has done that with tragic results. That’s why you have males and females in the secular world actually mutilating their bodies for life because they are so confused, they do not understand that they have different roles in life that they were created for. You think that you’re so smart that you can learn gemorah but you are being incredibly stupid in grand scheme of life. Our purpose in this world is to do what what we were created to do.

“Blessed are you, Lord our G-d, King of the universe, for having made me according to His will.”

Yankel berel, obviously if Hashem created everything he can make miracles as well. I never said Hashem can’t make a miracle and Yaacov Avinu can’t be physically alive in his kever forever.

1. I said that the Torah says that the brothers of Yosef saw that there father died. I said that Rashi is not contradicting a posuk in the Torah that says that Yaacov died. Rashi said Yaacov is alive forever which means that he is spiritually alive forever, he did not say Yaacov’s guf is alive forever.

2. I said that being physically alive in a kever for 3,000 years is the worst punishment you can give someone. Yonah was PUNISHED by being trapped in the fish for 3 days. Can you imagine being physically alive in you kever forever? Do you want that for yourself? If you don’t want that for yourself then why would you think Yaacov Avinu wants that kind of horrible punishment?

Chassidish-theorist, your comments are ridiculous. Shaking a lulav and esrog does not encompass 5% of time-bound mitzvos men are required to do. Between having a shuir or two (for working men) and going to daven every single day three times a day that alone is impossible for mothers to do (unless you have a built in babysitter).

No, women are not required to get married or have children. That doesn’t mean that Hashem didn’t establish the world with the idea that women do so. He gave for the majority of women the capabilities to have children for a reason. And he did not give women time-bound mitzvos for that same reason.

No is preventing you from going to daven in shul on Yom kippur. No, men do not have to change, nor should they change, what they are mechiyev to do to accommodate you and that includes “not making a shorter minyan” so that you and other angry women can go daven in shul when it fits their schedule.

If you want a “more spiritual life”, no one forcing you to have to you to have kids which will hamper you from having a “more spiritual life”. Or if you already have a family, no one forced you to have kids so that “unfortunately ” you now have to watch them and can’t run out to shul… how tragic…

Hashem is the One who decided who is mechiav to do what but women like you who are angry that they “can’t be more spiritual” by doing what the men are, well you know what, that is not a “spiritual path” that is the path of destruction because Hashem does not want you to do what men are doing. There are plenty of opportunities to grow spiritually for women without being angry that they are “deprived” of opportunities to do what men do.

Shtark girl, questions are always important to ask even if the answers are clear-cut.

You can’t have a mother putting on teffilin while the baby is crying, you can’t cook dinner and leave little kids at home while running out to shul to daven. Even though you are still a girl I’m sure you understand why it wouldn’t work for women to have mitzvas that are time-bound. I’m sure when you’ll be older you’ll understand it even better. Hashem created this world and in His infinite wisdom gave the different mitzvos to men and women in the capacity that they can fulfill. The answer why women werent commanded to do timebound mitzvos is clear.

Part of asking questions is gaining an understanding where the questions stem from. Questions that make a person feel bitter that they can’t have something that’s not for them stems from the yetzer hora. We all have a yetzer hora, as long as we live we should be growing into better people so there’s nothing wrong in exploring why we feel the way we do. But the fact is that if we get stuck with the mindset of why we can’t have things the way we think it should be then we can never be happy. Accepting and appreciating the way Hashem has created us and what He has given us is the #1 key to happiness.

Even regular Jews can give a bracha. A bracha from a tzaddik generally has more power because the tzaddik is on a higher spiritual level. A bracha is a BLESSING. A blessing does not mean that the person giving the blessing runs the world.

The power of avodah zora is that basic concepts that should be clear to humans become a haze of confusion in their desperate attempts at validating the legitimacy of their idol worship.

Non political, you addressed your questions to Neville but I would like to respond to your post.

I do not believe that there is a “mainstream Orthodox position” of that Rashi despite Neville’s insistence. I have listened to a few Yeshivish/Litvish ( I dont know what they call themselves as I am Chassidish) rabbis talking about Yaacov lo meis and NONE said that it means that Yaacov’s body is alive. I have read a few articles written by Yeshivish/Litvish Rabbis and in NONE of the articles did it say that Rashi means that Yaacov’s guf is alive. My husband is Chassidish and he also was not taught that that Rashi means that Yaacov’s guf is alive.

What I’m saying here does not reflect on Chassidim in general, but as a Chassidishe myself, I know that in some Chassidishe circles they think it’s my way or the highway.

Always, yes, many, perhaps even most, of the Ashkenazi rabbonim recognized that the reality of Zionism is not bad for frum Jews. Yes, secular Zionism has led many Jews astray, but no one who lives in reality can say that Zionism is the work of the Satan and such time of silly talk.

Always, sorry I don’t agree. If there’s nothing wrong with a moisdos that the husband wants to send his son to, it’s just ideological differences for something else the wife doesn’t like about her husband’s choice, then the husband has the right to have the last word. When people marry they know (or should know) the hashkafah and leanings of the person they are marrying. Usually the type of moisdos a person sends their children to goes accordingly with their hashkofos or where they belong. If you choose to marry someone you can’t fight the choices that automatically go along with it.

Neville, I am Chassidish. As I said, after arguing here for some time I asked a well learnt person if he thinks Yaacov lo mes means that Yaacov is still physically alive. Well, that person is Chassidish and looks like he learnt the meaning of what Rashi is saying differently than you.

You keep on repeating over and over again about “rejecting Rashi or laughing at the Rashi”. That is simply ridiculous. Just because you interpret the Rashi (or was taught to interpret it) to mean that Yaacov’s body is physically alive (and Rashi does not explicitly say that) does not mean that others who were taught differently are “rejecting Rashi or laughing at Rashi”.

Qwerty, you are surely not saying “He knew that the men would be Shlichim and he didn’t want them to look at other women so he made sure that their wives are pretty. On the other hand he made the men ordinary looking so that the local women won’t chase after them” in a literal sense…

Arso,

The Raavad is talking about who is a min. I can’t answer for others why they believed what they believed.

For me it’s very clear from the Torah, that Hashem has no guf.

I mean if you have an explanation how someone can believe Hashem is corporeal from the three examples I bought then go ahead and tell me.

How can Hashem have a guf if He was in existence before He created the universe/matter was created?

How can Hashem have a guf and be in the heaven and on earth at the same time?

How can Hashem have a guf when a guf has form and it says in the pasuk that Hashem has no form?

Neville,

I wrote “The Torah doesn’t work with “flat out” anything. Thats why with Yaacov Avinu, the Torah does not say mes when it says he expired and yet further down it does say mes because everything has a reason why things are written the way it is.” With the Torah first only saying expired and not mes but then later saying mes, it is not saying flat out anything about Yaacov Avinu’s death either. And yet you wrote,”“The Torah doesn’t work with “flat out” anything.” Except for when it talks about Yaakov being dead?” What the Torah says about Yaakov’s death IS NOT FLAT OUT anything, it needs to be unwrapped and studied just like everything else in the Torah. Exactly as I said, nothing in the Torah is flat-out anything, including Yaacov’s death.

You write, “However, my stake in this argument has never had anything to do with Chabad. I never really cared about that. I just came here to tell you that the way you were talking about Rashi’s pshat was extremely unsettling and was hurting your case more than it was helping. Are you asking why I’m not telling Menachem Shmei that he sounds unusual or outlandish in his arguments? Simple, because in his community he isn’t. It’s not my place to tell him how or how not to be a Lubavitcher. Within the context of his community, he seems very mainstream and normal.”

And therefore, because in Shmei’s Lubavitche community it’s OK to deliberately misinterpret the Gemorah, deliberately misinterpret meforshim, deliberately misinterpret Ramban and Rambam therefore you are busy harping on me instead of him? Is he writing his misinterpretations on a Chabad website? No, he’s writing it here. The fact that you don’t speak against his deliberate misinterpretations of Chazal and meforshim to “support” his outright idolatry is simply because you don’t care about a “Rashi being misinterpreted ” (according to you), you just care that your ego was hurt. Your constant arguing with me is not l’shem shomayim at all.

As I said before, YOU and others, are interpreting Rashi to mean that Yaacov’s guf is physically alive. No talmud chuchem and no yiras shomayim is laughing at what Rashi is saying c”v. They just find it amusing that there are people who interpret what Rashi is saying to mean that Yaacov’s guf is physically alive in his kever.

Neville, There are many places in the Torah that show that God does not have a guf.

The Torah doesn’t work with “flat out” anything. Thats why with Yaacov Avinu, the Torah does not say mes when it says he expired and yet further down it does say mes because everything has a reason why things are written the way it is. I say it over and over again. I will repeat, the Torah, every verse, every word, every letter, must be learnt within context and everything has meaning.

The Torah is not meant to spoonfeed unthinking humans.

We see clearly from the Torah, that Hashem has no guf. Now of course, we need Chazal and meforshim to explain the Torah in all aspects as I’ve said that many times. That does not mean Chazal and meforshim contradict the Torah, neither with halachos nor hashkafa nor anything else. The Torah is the Word of Hashem, no one can contradict the Torah.

Hashem has no guf, that is clearly taught by the Torah. If anyone wants to see otherwise so that they have an excuse to worship avodah zora, they could. I said over and over again, it is very easy to “prove” whatever someone want the Torah to prove if they disregard the context of every letter, every word every posuk, every chapter, every parshah, the entire Torah, and quote of context.

We see from the Torah that Hashem created the world. He existed before He created the universe. The universe is physical matter and since He existed before physical matter was created, Hashem is not a physical being.

Devarim 4:39
וְיָדַעְתָּ הַיּוֹם וַהֲשֵׁבֹתָ אֶל־לְבָבֶךָ כִּי יְהֹוָה הוּא הָאֱלֹהִים בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל וְעַל־הָאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת אֵין עוֹד׃
Can a human being be in the heaven above and earth below at the same time?

Devarim 4:15
וְנִשְׁמַרְתֶּם מְאֹד לְנַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם כִּי לֹא רְאִיתֶם כׇּל־תְּמוּנָה בְּיוֹם דִּבֶּר יְהֹוָה אֲלֵיכֶם בְּחֹרֵב מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵשׁ
A physical body has a shape, Hashem does not have a shape.

There are many ways that the Torah tells us that Hashem has no physical guf. The point is, that if thinks, after reading Tanach, one can still think that Hashem has a guf, it is because they are deliberately trying to misinterpret the Torah.

You write, “I’m not going to call you an apikorus as others have, but it’s just extremely gaavadik and immature to keep acting like you have the key to all correct understanding and none of the rest of us do. ”

Lets be clear, I dont know what you or anyone was taught. I dont know who you are. Not do I care to know. Nor do i care if you believe that Rashi is saying that Yaacov lo mes means that he’s physically alive in his kever.

After arguing here sometime, I wanted to hear from someone who I know knows Chumash, Rashi, Gemorah very well. Maybe he was taught differently than you in cheder, maybe because the person who gives his daf yomi shuir is a big talmud chuchem and teaches taanus 5b very well, but he chuckled when I asked him if he believes that Yaacov Avinu is physically alive in his kever. He thinks it’s funny that people believe that. Secondly, the talmidei chachumim who I listened to their shuirim on Yaacov lo mes none of them said, or even indicated, that it means that his guf is physically alive. No, the reasons they gave what Rashi means with Yaacov lo mes were varied, but not that his guf is alive.

You, the supposed defender of Chazal and meforshim, are so riled up about me saying that Rashi saying “Yaakov lo mes” means that Rashi is saying that Yaacov himself, or Yaacov’s guf, is alive in a spiritual capacity. However, when Menachem Shmei misinterpreted what the Gemorah in Taanis is saying, misinterpreted many meforshim, you have no issue with that. You do not argue with him, you do not denounce him, you ignore his misinterpretations. I bought the exact texts of the meforshim so that everyone can see how he misconstrued meforshim, and yet you ignored it all and you are busy arguing with me non-stop about what Rashi means with “Yaacov lo mes”. The reason for that is because your anger is not l’shem shomayim. Your continuous arguing with me over the intentions of Rashi on the words “Yaacov lo mes” is not l’shem shomayim. If misinterpretations of Chazal and meforshim would bother you you would condemn Shmei. You would argue with Shmei. Your ego has become bruised because i dont agree with you, that is all that bothers you.

I read an article somewhere about a ben yochid being very resentful. He has to get up Shabbos and Y”T to go daven while his sisters sleep in, he has to get up early for slichos, he has to get up 5:30 every day to go to yeshiva and comes home very late at night while his sisters wake up two hours laters and come home much earlier from school, etc.. B’kitzur, he’s resentful for having to work harder. And yet I’m sure he’s not interested in doing laundry and cooking and doing all other “baal habustishe” stuff.

So basically what I’m saying, as a woman who is more intellectually inclined and hates cooking, cleaning and doing repetitive, humdrum housework, that it’s is a package deal. I promise you, want do not want to be a man.

Don’t worry about your husband “lording” over you. I vintch you you should find a husband who is a yirei shomayim and baal middos, and if you have good middos as well you’ll build a happy, peaceful home together without him “lording” over you. Yes, you will follow his minhugim and he’ll have the last word which moisdos your sons will attend, but “lording” over you is definitely not something you need to worry about. It also says a woman should be an ezer K’NEGDO, the woman should help the man by being against him when he wants to do something wrong. That does not mean you will be busy fighting him just as he will not be “lording” over you.

I do not think you have kinas sofrim. In this day and age people suffer from not appreciating the tremendous gifts that Hashem gave us and wanting things they can’t have. This brings depression and jealousy which are both aveiros (i know today depression is classified as a mental health issue but its an aveirah-people get in that headspace because they dont appreciate what Hashem gives them). Being who you are is a gift. You have tremendous koichos in you and you can only reach your potential by being the best who you are. You can serve Hashem perfectly well by being a woman. If you are intellectually inclined, learn sefarim, you don’t have to bake cakes. (But you do have to cook supper, clean and do the laundry when you get married or even now if your mother needs your help… ) Life is a balance between our personalities and our duties which can be conflicting. But Hashem does not make mistakes. He made you the way you are and that means that you need to serve Him in the capacity of being you. Whoever you are is a gift, your strength and weaknesses are gifts, your personality is a gift, your body is a gift. Hashem gave you have so many gifts. What will bring you happiness is serving Him the way He wants you to serve Him.

Qwerty, to tell you the truth, I didn’t read every word that Shmei wrote. Perhaps his arguments sometimes sounded conflicting so it couldn’t be understood exactly what he is saying. I myself never read anything clear and consice what he wrote, it was all over the place.

What i do know is that every time I said that Yaacov is alive in a spiritual sensee, not physically , he asked me but what about this mefoiresh and that mefoirsh that says otherwise. One of the meforshim he kept mentioning as contradicting to what I said that Yaacov is alive spiritually is the “Maharsha”.

Qwerty, they are allowed to personally attack me constantly with lies and put-downs but they have issues with you attacking them personally….talk about hypocritical.

Meanwhile, none of them,
Shmei
Neville
Arso
Lostspark
Can name one rav who says Yaacov’s guf is physically alive.

Also meanwhile, none of the Lubavitche cheering squad cared about Shmei’s total misinterpretations of the Ramban and Maharsha and Lostspark’s misinterpretation of R Bachay. All I did was simply copy the text which says the truth about what these meforshim are saying which proves the “talmid chuchem Shmei” to be a total faker.

Shmei claims the Maharsha says Yaacov is physically alive.

The Maharsha says:
אבל יעקב אבינו שמת בחו”ל היה לבעל דין לומר דאינו חי כמותן ולזה אמר דאף הוא חי וכאלו מת בא”י וא”ל וכי בכדי חנטו כו’ ומהיכא תיתי לך שהוא חי יותר משאר מתים שבח”ל וא”ל מקיש כו’ הנני מושיעך מארץ רחוק דהיינו ממצרים בחיים כאלו אתה מת בא”י כמו זרעך יוסף שבא ממצרים ארץ שביו בחיים לשם:

The lying of that idol worshipper is a tragicomedy. Also funny, as well as a tragedy, is that people are so quick to side with someone who sounds legitimate and knowledgeable without investigating matters themselves. How easy it is to shlep others into believing nonsense.

Yankel berel, you wrote, “It seems that RAMBAN and R BACHAY disagree with RASHI. They are stating their own opinion, not like RASHI.”

Ok. Perhaps.

The thing is, I didn’t bring any meforshim to “prove” anything. I am merely bringing the meforshim, at this point in the argument, that were twisted out of context when they tried to “prove that Rashi meant that Yaacov is physically alive” to show that they were totally and deliberately misinterpreted. Even the Gemorah 5b:9 was misinterpreted. This is how they teach “avodah zora style”, by deliberate misinterpretations and word salads.

It is simply unbelievable that Shmei and Arso are trying to argue that the Ramban “proves that Yaacov’s guf is alive” when he is very, very clearly saying that Yaacov is alive spiritually!

This is the power of avodah zora, where they try to obscure the truth, where they lie outright, where they introduce confusion, where they twist reality and what our Torah teaches us, just so that it could align with their idolatrous ideology.

The Lubavitche Rebbe is dead, he is not alive in his kever ” like Yaacov Avinu is physically alive in his kever”. The Lubavitche rebbe is not moshiach, he is dead. The Lubavitche rebbe is a person you are attributing divine attributes to because a person who died and was buried cannot be physically alive so you turned him into an idol with deity-like powers. You believe he never died, that he is running the world, that you can pray directly to him, that he is everywhere, that he never “makes” mistakes. Shame on you.

You invented a new religion. It is almost the exact replica of the Christian religion. Your children will hold the Lubavitche rebbe in higher regard than Hashem just like the Christians did with their religion. Their father-god was reduced to a “person of the same substance as the universe” because he couldnt be on a higher plane than Yoshke who was born a human being and yet takes the center stage in their religion… Yoshke who started out as their moshiach but never came back is now their god… Its disgusting. The new Chabadianity is equally disgusting.

Lostspark, thanks for being concerned about me. But you have nothing to worry about. I’m married so you can save your prayers for other important matters.

Shmei, no, we were discussing both Rashis, on the posuk and on the Gemorah. Obviously, if I talk about Rashi saying Yaacov lo mes I’m talking about the Rashi on the posuk in Chumash.

Yankel berel, I am not the one to have bought the Ramban originally, this is my response to Shmei and Arso who have referred to it many times on this thread and I simply bought the complete version what the Ramban is saying which is clearly that Yaacov lo mes means that Yaacov is alive in a sense.

So my question to you is why didn’t you tell Shmei and Arso who were arguing what the Ramban says on Rashi, why didn’t you tell them that what you told me “@philosopher Quoting RAMBAN does not convince anyone of shitat RASHI”? NOW you are saying that when I bought the complete Ramban so everyone can see exactly what the Ramban is saying?

When they “quote” the Ramban and other meforshim out of context, no one has an issue. When I bring exactly what the Ramban says, in the entire context, all of a sudden it doesn’t prove anything….

Now, I will take the Ramban’s and Rabbeinu B’Chaya’s explanation that Yaacov lo mes means Yaacov is alive in a spiritual sense and in a second spiritual body over your insistence that it means that Yaacov’s brain is alive.

Neville, what’s the point of your argument?

I said you can bring a rishon on a posuk too but they don’t contradict the Torah. They expound and explain the Torah.

משה אמת ותרתו אמת

The Torah never changes.

Halacha never changes, Chazal, Rishonim, Achroinim, etc. never contracted halacha in the Torah and neither did they contradict anything else written in the Torah.

Rashi is saying Yaacov lo mes. I am not saying that Rashi is not saying that Yaacov is alive. The question is what alive means. You are INTERPRETING alive to mean that the body that was embalmed and buried and what the Torah says the brothers said “mes” on is physically alive. I’m saying alive means in a spiritual sense.

End of discussion. If you have PROOF that what I’m saying is wrong then I’ll listen. I’m not interested in hearing your opinion.

Arso, Rashi said something, I had no question on it. And read the full text of the Ramban which you obviously didn’t bother to do…

Shmei claimed there’s a Rif, Or Hachayim AND the Rif on the Ein Yaacov. I said I don’t have a sefer of ein yaacov. As for the Rif, yes from the 11th century I looked and looked and there’s nothing on Yaacov lo mes! Don’t you and Shmei fardrey me a kup when Shmei mentions the Rif, another two other meforshim in between and then the Rif again on Ein Yaacov that I’m mixing up the two Rif’s!

As for the Ramban I bought down the FULL VERSION IN CONTEXT in one of my last posts. YOU obviously didn’t bother checking the Ramban! Or if you did then you are lying by omission!

I’m certainly not combing through the posts again but are you seriously saying now that you and Shmei didn’t argue that Yaacov is physically alive in his kever?! Unbelievable!!!! What dishonesty! But the truth is I knew from the beginning that I’m arguing with dishonest people so I’m not surprised.

Okay so what you are NOW saying is that Rashi is saying that Yacov lo mes means that he is alive…wow! How impressive! I also said throughout the entire thread that Rashi is saying that. What’s you point in arguing with me then?