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Joseph, I missed your post and only realized it today, where you say you didn’t post about women and bears… sorry I forgot your exact comment, but you posted that “Women are easily frightened…” in the news article about the black bear in Forshay… as if men would stand around waiting to greet a black bear…what was your point?
Now you bought a Rambam that women can’t learn effectively. There are many rerferences in the Torah, in the Talmud, meforshim and seforim about men in a negative sense as well. I don’t see the point in combing through myriads of sources to bring up what they say about men…
Nd”k in my opinion,( and there are many meanings including the one Bruriah talked about, as everything in the Torah has many facets) means that since women are more emotional than men, feeling more empathy with others as opposed to men who are not so emotionally involved with other people, it may have an influence on halachik outcomes so women should not be poskim and dayanim.
Nobody feels uncomfortable with this Chazal as your first comment stated- we feel uncomfortable with what you are trying to imply.
Non Political, there is no problem with simply pointing out the high medreiges women can arrive at. There’s nothing here in of itself, even without comparing these great women to Deborah Hanavia, that contradicts Chazal in any case…
akuperma, I’m not saying I would ever use a Shabbos elevator, but I fail to understand the difference between that and a lighting fixture set on with Shabbos clock, a refrigerator set to Shabbos mode, and an oven set to Shabbos mode with food taken out during Shabbos…The electricity on and off in all of these cases are set before Shabbos…
Klugeryid, If you read my earlier posts you would understand why we are upset with Joseph specifically, however I take the blame for making it into a personal fight with him. Regardless of his personal opinions, I shouldn’t of attacked him personally. Syag did not fight with Joseph at all, she only pointed out why he bought up the topic specifically now in the 9 days because it can cause strife- and it did, but is was not over the Chazal specifically…
I mistakenly pressed a button on my phone while typing my previous message which cleared the message box so I hope my unfinished comment wasn’t submitted by mistake. If it was then this message may be a repeat of my previous one…
Although it feels like personal attacks against me and noshem tzedkunius in general especially because it is so often that we are tried to be proven inferior and I see these comments almost every time I read the threads in the coffee room and sometimes in the news as well, I shouldn’t have taken Joseph’s comments so personally and I feel bad that I attacked him in a personal manner.
Joseph, I hope you will forgive my personal attacks on you (and I also hope you will try to not “prove” constantly that women are inferior…)
DY, Is Sara Schnirer and her students who built bais Yaacovs and saved the Jewish nation from disintegration included in the “exceptions”? And which Chazal rule are you talking about?
Non Political, your comments are well said and emes.
CA, ok, it’s an interesting point that you are making regarding women having lower spiritual end points but you don’t quote a source so until I see a source I’ll take it as your opinion.
In any case, I don’t think a woman being a nevuah is such a low spiritual point… And people’s highest spiritual point is set high enough for both men and women – our spiritual potential is immensely great and not in any way “low” for women as you claim it is. I’d be overjoyed if I reach my spiritual potential at 120, even if I don’t end up being a tzaddik gemor…as will most men be happy to reach their potential even if most of them WOULD NOT end up tzakkikim gemirim even if they would fulfill their spiritual potential.
As Reb Zusya of Hanipoli said he will be asked in the next world why he’s did not rise to the level of Rav Zusya, not why he wasn’t a Moshe Rabbeinu.
So as far as I’m concerned, we each have our own spiritual destiny, capabilities and potential that doesn’t hinge only on being male or female but on many other factors.
CA, So Shloime Hemelech found one only good man out of 1,000?! That doesn’t show us that men are generally better than women…If Shloime Hamelech thought women were so bad he wouldn’t have 700 wives and 300 concubines.
CA, I’m not sure what your last two paragraphs are about… What does kinetic energy of male and female have to do with spiritual greatness? Am I missing some deep kabbalistic knowledge here? And I’m not sure about the students you are talking about. Seems to me you know who said women are on a higher spiritual plane as they spoke about that in the Mishpacha article and likely named the person who said it. If so, kindly enlighten us who it was.
A man can, in general, go further spiritually than a women because of the limud haTorah that men study while women are generally busy with the household and children. With that being said, one gender is not automatically greater than the other. Again, it depends on what one acheives as an individual.
Coffee addict, I don’t remember where I’ve read it, but this is attributed to a tzaddik whom I’ve forgotten his name, who said that women have less mitzvos because they are on a higher spiritual plane.
Regardless where that comes from, I have never read or heard ANY frum person saying that women are better than men, it is just an explanation why women have less mitzvos.
I’m not sure about the Mishpacha article as I’ve not read it, but I highly doubt that they insinuated that women are better than men.
As individuals, male or female , and as a people, we all have strengths and weakness and we were all created with those characteristics so that we can fulfill our potential. We are not better one over the other except for what we make of ourselves. Tzaddikim are higher than simple people because of what they have acheived. That has no bearing to the fact that men are not greater than women or vice versa.
Joseph, nobody claims there’s no difference in female vs male daas. However we can argue with your interpretation of daas into the English words “intelligence or cognizance”. Intelligence in my opinion, is individual, not specifically devided by gender. However, even if we are to argue that intelligence, as defined in the English language, is different in men and women because it is processed differently in male and female brain, nobody, including us women, argued otherwise…
Remember women were taught halacha before men after the giving of the Torah….We are not less intelligent, we have different daas and nobody said otherwise.
As I’ve said before, the problem many of us are having is not with Chazal as you are trying to insinuate, in fact, this topic is a fascinating one and it could make for a rather interesting discussion. The problem we have is that you are trying to prove for months, perhaps even years, or for as long as I’ve been on here, is that women are inferior to men. That is a dangerous notion and not based in Judasim at all. We have specific duties as men and women and despite the fact that men are more dominant IN SPECIFIC AREAS according to halacha, it does not indicate superiority or that women are in servitude of men as we have argued previously. That is a dangerous notion to have. It is more in line with Islam…and that’s why their women are more often than not mistreated.
Nobody has a problem with people digging up interesting or relevant old threads. It’s when digging up old threads in addition to bringing up topics continously for years to try to prove the inferiority of a large segment of klal Yisreol and even if it would be only one frum Jew… kol shekein the mothers of our entire nation! A little respect is in order but trying constantly to prove our inferiority through Tanach, Gemara, meforshim, is absolutely disgusting and nausciating.
Honestly, I have not read any of your posts, if there are any, on the opinion of what nd”k means. Just the mere fact, that I have not been on YWN for a while and come back and what do I see? Joseph posting a comment of only women being scared of bears and bringing up a thread from 2011 about women…again. This is when I have had continuous arguments with you on different threads that supposedly “prove” that men can subjegate their wives, before I took a break from YWN. I would be very surprised that in the interim there were no threads by you “proving” how inferior we are. These are personal attacks from you against women.
As I’ve said before, I, and other women who have chimed in, have no problem with any Chazal, despite your arguing otherwise. This is another attack you make against us women- that since we don’t agree with your and your intentions, we supposedly c”v don’t agree with Chazal.
Please explain to us what your intention is when the vast majority of your threads and comments is about “proving”, according to YOUR VERSION of Yiddishkeit, that women are inferior to men.
Joseph, we like every single Chazal. We frum women are not trying to become dayanim and poskim, we are happy the way we are, with the daas we we’re created with and for the purpose we were created for. What we don’t like is YOUR continuous interpretations of Chazal and other Torah sources that denigrate women. For me personally, as someone who has suffered from controlling individuals, this type of weird obsession of yours of how superior men are to women shows something much deeper – it shows that you disrespect and try to cheapen women. It is worrisome if you have a wife or daughters. Some have pointed out that it is doubtful that there exists women in your life…
Either way, continuously talking in a denigrating way regarding women ( like only women are scared of bears…remember this recent moiredige comment of yours?) is senseless sinas chinum that serves no purpose. Today is the day to remember that the Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of sinas chinum and by you trying to hide your sinas chinum behind Torah sources is particularly offensive. Sinas chinum’s only purpose is for individuals to feel superior that they are more chushev than “inferior” individuals. And usually this krum mentality involves mental, physical and/or emotional abuse of others when it is within the power of the superior feeling individual to do so.This topic of what “daton kalos” means and what the halachic ramications are is actually an interesting one. Since it’s Tisha BaAv I won’t go into the topic itself. The only bothersome thing with topics like these is when one has an agenda behind these threads. There are people who ask “where is Hashem?” And there are people who ask “where is Hashem?” People can have the same questions but what their intentions are behind the questions and behind bringing up topics can be very different.
Syag, thanks. Some individuals are so offensive, they can make the most frum women sound liberal when we stick up for ourselves …
Bruriah, don’t take Joseph, or anyone attacking your response to Joseph, too seriously. Halachic discussion, my foot. Joseph loves “proving” how inferior women are. Do you know anyone searching very old threads and bringing them back to life? Only someone obsessed with a topic can do that. And answering someone with passion will make you as a woman, a “weak emotional woman” but many men can argue pretty passionately and immaturely, but that’s ok since they are men…
Anyway, whatever. It doesn’t matter, one can argue and bring proofs of what “kalos” means, but I take the way Hashem created me with utmost happiness, with the good and the bad, and wouldn’t want to be a male. Thank you Hashem for creating me according to your will!
Well, I’d say it could be true because the name yankelehcohen with the Sephardi sounding title with the word “tniut” didn’t make sense. As far as I know “yankele” or “yanky” is only used by Ashkenazim.
Also “yankelecohen” never chimed in after his first post, unless I missed a comment of his..ammeleh, is the song a joke perhaps? Some issues that people think kids have are non-issues, today everything is exaggerated. But real issues become bigger after marriage. Marriage is not a fix for those who have major issues.
Joseph, that is not accurate. Most Chasidim do not go out at 17 years of age ( actually most Chassidim do not go out at all- we have beshows). We started listening to shidduchim for my son when he was 19 and he got married by 20. My 19 year old daughter just started shidduchim, most of the boy’s that are read are alproximately 20 years of age. We are a regular Chassidishe family listening to regular Chassidishe boys. My daughter has only 4 engaged girls out of her class of 30. She attended a very Chassidishe school.
Even Satmer boys who get engaged young are generally at least 18 years of age while there could be kallahs 17 years of age but they wait until they are 18 to get married and they are a minority. Most boys and girls in the very frum Chassidishe crowd are at least 18 when they start listening. I do know of a Rebbishe girl who got engaged at 16 and married at 17. But even for Rebbishe, it is very young. My friend has an 18 year old son in Satmer yeshiva and none of his classmates are engaged yet.
The trend is certainly not 17 years of age. In Israel 17 years of age is also not the norm. Maybe by the Meah Shaerim Chassidishe like Reb Aharon’s Chassidim, maybe they go at that age. I’m not familiar with that shidduchim scene.
Neville your response would have been the right one. Ben is very good with debating but he’s human too and he made a mistake this time falling into the trap.
Well, how would Been Shapiro know that baby Adolf y”s would be a killer?
If Ben Shapiro thinks German-Austrian volk were Amelek should he have killed them all? As crazy as Adolf was, he could only thrive and carry out his deeds because the Germans and all of the Europeans who helped him, enabled him to so. So why is the question only regarding Hitler y”s? In any case, the Amaleik question was not what the media had an in mind.
The question is not relevant. We don’t know how anyone will turn out to be. If we would know he would be a killer we would also know those who actually did the killing and those who put him in power and enable him to carry out his gruesome deeds. That would mean hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of abortions. Which I can tell you all of a sudden these abortion butchers would not want to carry out, only those whom the mother deems unworthy of living because she has no PATIENCE to take care of the baby or because the baby is disabled. But if the baby would grow up killer of Jews, then we can’t kill these innocent babies, can we?
Anyway, again it’s irrelevant because we have no clue what kind of person a baby will be when they grow up.
Coffee addict, I was just exaggerating a bit but still not everyone, even upstate New Yorkers, know where the 5 Towns is. But thanks for educating me on the general area of 5 Towns 馃檪
JustaJew39, we don’t hate each other at all! Kol Yisroel areivim zeh lzeh. Still this is an important topic. Women who are not b’tznius are nichshal others and there’s nothing wrong with discussing this vital topic.
Yisro, I’m not violating halacha by saying more money and kochos should be put into making sure frum people know and keep basic halacha than all money and effort going into trying to make baalie teshuvas. This is my opinion. I couldn’t care less if you think I’m out of my mind and I won’t change my mind just because you say so. I’m not saying a Baal Teshuva cannot be on a higher spiritual level than a FFB, or more chushav in Hashem’s eyes. Don’t fardrey what I’m saying. What I do see is a constant lowering of standards in music, dress, action to gefel and look cool and normal to those people many are trying to attract to Yiddishkeit whether they are not frum Jews or OTDs. And I firmly believe that before people start trying to make Baal teshuvas they need to keep basic halachas. Besides the secular world, especially in the US, is getting more and more dangerous. Soon you will not know if you are dealing with a man or woman. I think people like you are very naive. First a Jewish home has to be kodosh. That is the number one priority.
Modesty, the reason that dressing modest is so hard for some women is because this yetzer hora has grown out of control in some women. Tznius becomes second nature after a bit of taiming the yetzer hora.
If a Jew has been eating treif it’s much harder for them to stop eating it than someone who has never eaten trief. But after a while of not eating trief one doesn’t have to keep themselves back from eating treif- it becomes second nature.
It’s a real shame that in some frum communities the basic mitzva of tznius has become such a big effort to keep because they have become lax in them. I think that the trying to make baalie teshuvas out of non-frum Yidden should take backstage to making sure we frum Yidden are strong in keeping basic halacha.
Mod-29 I’m glad to have made your day 馃檪
It’s not a problem because apparently only Jews living in the 5 Towns know where the 5 Towns is. Everyone else thinks it’s in Brooklyn.
馃ぃ馃槀 Thank you for this post, made my day -29
LLW, you mean we should just be good Jews at heart and dress however we want? We just need to act nice to goyim and all is right ? Absolutely not. That is not what Yiddishkeit is all about. That is why women dress so pritzusdig these days because they are given the green light to do so.
We are supposed to dress and act b’tznius because this is what Hashem asks of us, not according to how goyim percieve us. Btw, dressing goyish and pritzusdig causes Hashem’s anger and He withholds his protection from goyim’s hatred. I see a correlation between the recent upscale in anti-Semitic incidents in the US and the way frum women AND men dress, trying to blend in with the goyim by hiding their Jewishness. If we don’t shape up it will spin out of control. The Holocaust started in Germany because so many sought to “show the goyim” that they are proper German citizens and it blew up in their faces. We don’t have to “show” anyone anything. We need to live as Jews and be tzniusdig with our dress and actions.
Modesty, why is it so difficult to dress tzniusdig? A woman can be well dressed and a tznia at the same time.
Syag Lchochma, please explain why it’s a dumb post to judge women who don’t dress b’tznius in public and negatively effect others. This is not only between Hashem and an individual, this effects men in general, besides that it also effects these women’s children in a negative way. It also effects women who think it’s ok to dress this way with the mentality of “if she dresses this way, then ok for me too” …
Judaism places a big emphasis on tznius because this is a yesod of Yiddishkeit!
WinniethePooh, thanks. I am constantly striving to become better in Loshen HaKodesh and try to use the words in the correct terms ..I didnt have the privilege of learning Loshen HaKodesh well because the school I attended has a shittah according to their Rebbe that girls should be good wives and mothers and not learn as much as the men…I understand their shittah but I don’t agree entirely. I taught/ am teaching myself with Artscroll sedarim and sefarim and my girls’ notes from the school they attend ( b”H they are learning Loshen HaKodesh on an advanced level)… I’d love to be able to speak and write fluently in Loshen HaKodesh like I do in Yiddish and English but I can’t see that happening since I’m not speaking the language, only davening and reading it…maybe if I would attend yeshiva I would be able to speak the language fluently…but I don’t think they’d let me study there 馃槈
LLW, so why is it ok for you to judge when people don’t act b’tznius? Dressing like a ptitza is ok but acting loud and coarse can be judged? We can discuss both. Yidden should act and dress b’tznius.
However, I will say that sometimes women don’t realize that they talk too loud. They can be made aware. However it’s very obvious to everyone including the women who wear it, that the short skirts that they are wearing is not covering their knees, which is totally against halacha.
Syag Lchochma, you are ok with you talking against those who dress pritzusdig but bashing others who are talking against immodestly dressed wome. Now I have no idea what you are talking about regarding judging these women. No one is judging immodest womens’ characters, nor judging any of their actions outside of the way they dress, no one is judging them in any way other than the way how they appear in the streets.
Funny, I thought the 5 Towns was in Brooklyn.
zahavasdad, I’m sure there are women who dress tzniusdig in the 5 Towns but when you walk down the streets they are full of pritzusdige looking frum women with very long wigs, tight clothing and short skirts. I’m from upstate, but sometimes I find myself in the city in certain frum areas in Brooklyn and the way frum women dress I find is repulsive and irresponsible, and brazenly and publicly trampling on halacha. We have it to a lesser extent where I live, it’s not so bad as certain frum communities in the city. The first time I saw a frum man with a kapl and beard and his wife walking next to him wore a mini skirt I was shocked. This is insanity.
Not dressing b’tznius is not only between a woman and Hashem, it negatively effects others as well.
Torah613ami, I’m sorry but your first comment was not so clear, it seems I misunderstood what you were trying to say. And neither am I sure I understand your second comment regarding kisui rosh. I assume you are asking whether the women in our family wear wigs. Yes we do. That is a separate issue from tznius issues. There are differences in opinions regarding peah nochri but I’m not sure why you think it is rellevent to this thread. We are discussing issues of tznius here, not whether wearing wigs are kosher or not.
torah613ami, I quit posting in the CR awhile ago because my comments to a anti-Semite who kept on sticking up for Fakestinians and bashing Jewish self-defense measures, who was likely Jewish himself, were censored. But now seeing people like you claiming to know halacha when you really don’t want to know basic halachas and you are misleading people, I will comment on that. According to numerous poskim showing the shape of a woman’s figure and showing skin that is ervah is absolutely against halacha.
Just by quoting two sources does not mean that you can ignore the rest of the halachas.
In any case, most of the women who wear tight clothing also wear clothing skirts that do not cover the knee, many wear mini skirts and more and more elbows are being exposed. And tight skirts, even when they cover the knee while standing, will expose the knee when sitting.
And then not everything needs to have a source. Where’s the common sense in people? Things like very long wigs or very long loose hair is pritzus. I’m not sure if there’s a source for that but women need to be b’tnius according to the Torah and need to act and dress accordingly. Does it say in the Torah that you have to brush your teeth every day and drive carefully? It’s common sense! It’s also common sense that if the Torah places such emphasis on tnius it means that even though modern, long wigs are a recent development and not written about in the Torah or other sources, a woman needs to use their head and not wear long wigs because we all know, and you’d be fooling yourself if you deny it, long wigs are not tzniusdig, period.
This horrible situation of frum women looking like prutzos came about precisely because of people like you quoting one or two sources as “proof” that those are the halachas of tznius that we have to be concerned about.
It’s a shanda how many frum women dress. It’s a churban.
And for those who claim it’s loshe hora – it’s not. Those who sin are public are allowed to be spoken about and to be mechazek ourselves and to clarify, these issues must be spoken about. A women who dresses like a frum prutzah is still dressing like a prutzah and causing others to sin.
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Modesty, it is not confusing at all. It is against halacha to expose skin that should be covered and to wear tight clothing. There are numerous sources of halachas on tznius and simply quoting 2 sources means nothing except deliberately choosing halachas that one wants to choose
Well, I have nothing to say anymore if YWN moderators edits my posts personally bashing, yes personally bashing, a terrorist supporter. 000646 lies continuously and is sticking up for a people in comment after comment who want to annihilate us. If I can’t say it as is, I will thank you for the platform you gave me till now and bid you goodbye.
Winnie the Pooh, I did correct my mistake regarding Dovid Hamelech. I usually write my posts in between work when I take a few seconds break and there are instances which I makes with spelling and fatcs which I correct later.
It is true that Am Yisroel started at Har Sinia, however Avraham Avinu was considered the first ger as he practiced the Torah.
I meant to write that Dovid Hamelech was a descendent of a geyoress
. 0002646 says Gaza is only surrounded by Israel and the sea, which is totally untrue. Gaza shares a border with Egypt too and it’s just as closed as Israel’s is. Egypt does not want Fakestinian terrorists and Muslim Brotherhood supporters, which a large percentage of Fakestinians are. But nobody is saying a word against Egypt, only against, drumroll please, Israel! And Israel does open the border (checking everyone going through of course) when the security situation “lightens”.
The Fakestinians make their evil intentions known on social media sites, through their media networks, and through the Hamas charter. That is the reason for the blockade, to prevent them importing arms for use in their “struggle”.
Everyone knows their true intentions
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注爪讬 注爪讛 讜住驻专 讚讘专讜 讚讘专 讜诇讗 讬拽讜谉 讻讬 讗诪谞讜 拽诇
000646, Gaza is sealed at the ISREALI BORDER as EVERY country seals their borders to the best of their abilities. Or do you have a double standard for Israel that they can’t seal their border? Maybe Egypt should open their border with Gaza?! Why do you think Israel should open their border and let hordes of terrorists cross over into Israel?!
And I couldn’t give a hoot and I never concerned myself whether the Fakestinians had or didn’t have citizenship because I totally understand the fact they didn’t did not have citizenship. The Fakestinians wouldn’t appreciate citizenship and it it would be a big problem like the Muslim Arabs in East Jerusalem, only a bigger security issue because more terrorists would be involved. So I certainly don’t shed any tears over the fact that they had no citizenship.
In any case, stop harping on what was, now they have their own government, including in the West Bank where Israel CANNOT do what they want, except in your mind.
000646, didn’t you see the bright red exit signs? You are repeating the same stupidity over and over again. The Fakestinians have their own governments that THEY ELECTED. Stop blaming Jews for the Fakestinian troubles.
5ish, yes, it’s a good idea to open a thread discussing if women can walk in the street. Especially if they may 砖驻讗讟爪讬专 in the street.
And we should also discuss the issue of men leaving their houses because it’s impossible for men in chutz l’areretz not to see something Chazal asured…so maybe we should have a thread about that. Maybe we should discuss if they really have a need to go out, they should they wear blinders or perhaps carry a stick…we need to discuss these vital issues.
Bashalmuder, I’ve met many light-colored Sephardim in my life. I once went to a genuine Sephardishe shul in London and I was surprised that many people there were blond. From features you cannot see know whether one is Ashkenazi or Sephardi. Generally though, Middle Eastern people are darker. Even Ashkenazim living in Israel, living on kibbutzim and serving in the army, i.e. being out in the sun a lot, can make light people, and their descendents, darker.
You make it sound as if geirim are something bad. Avraham Avinu was a geir, The imuos were geirim, Dovid Hamelech was a geir, etc. So all of klal Yisroel are descendents of geirim.
These type of DNA tests, where one tests their ancestry, is totally inconclusive. Unlike testing against the blood of one’s close relative to see if they are related, ancestry testing is testing against whom? You obviously can’t compare your DNA with your ancestor’s DNA, so who are the markers that decide which group has which DNA? Immigrants, that’s who! If you study history you see that the world’s population has always migrated and mixed. DNA tests cannot prove one’s ancestry as a conclusive fact.
5ish, it doesn’t. And that’s my point. Many posts become derailed to the topic of women can’t do this and women can’t do that and women are subersvient to their husbands, etc. It is very annoying, not to mention hypocritical. And I can’t take hypocrasy and the need to be farfrum on yenems cheshbon.
Neville ChaimBerlin, +1
NevilleChaim, I honestly think judges should and COULD set bail accrording to a defendant’s records, not the news.
AviK, so what if prosecutors ask for more bail and defense attorneys for less? How does that make Friere’s decision ok? She should have set higher bail, he was a potential murderer and regardless if the charges bought forth didn’t say he was racist, the facts prove otherwise.
And as I said before, bail is set at according to judge’s whims and she should have a little decency to set bail higher for attempted murder than a mere $15,000. It shows a remarkable DISREGARD for the lives of Jews