philosopher

Daas Yochid, sorry, I made a mistake. Indeed nd”k does dictate some halachos regarding yichud, shechting and perhaps other halachas I don’t know of.

Syag, I sincerely believe it was not with intent to denigrate our Chachomim, c”v but with amateur translation of each of every word with the intent on context it could happen by mistake, not with bad intent. But I may even be wrong and the words could be very accurately be translated, I’m not sure myself. I highly doubt that when learning every word is translated accurately with much thought though and for posting maybe 2-3 words, not even sentences could’ve been changed. But maybe not, it depends if it was extremely accurately or loosely translated…

That is not why you should make it seem as if the Bruriah’s post is so bad that it’s not worth reading…the words of the Mishna is more accurate with her post than other homemade peshutim that people are cooking up.

Syag, please enlighten me what Bruriah said that you object to. She posted entire agadates of Mishna within context and bought legitimate sources of whatever she posted so besides for a 2-3 sentences that could’ve used more revered language towards our holy Sages (but I’m sure there was no bad intent), I fail to see what bothers you about her post.

Well, one reason people are lost in this thread is because we were supposed to be arguing what Chazal meant with nd”k that was supposed to “prove” that women are inferior, but no one, including the men here who I expected more from, realized that we are talking about a verse that is an agadata and that was quoted out of context and not a something leading to halacha. But thanks to Bruriah for pointing us in the right direction…and this whole argument collapsed like a burst bubble.

Except for my original teina of people that have nothing better to do than find verses and quote them out of context trying to prove the inferiority of women, not once and not twice and not for weeks but at least for months, and maybe years. Why does it other me? 1. I’m an honest person and I hate when people spread lies or try to show how their krume views are supposedly dass Torah. That is sheker and I abhor that 2. Women deserve respect and not constant put-downs. I have been on a professional forum where people constantly spouted anti-Semitic views and I always stuck up for us Jews even though I could’ve said “who cares what these idiots think about us?” 3. It is my belief, and I have seen it in real life, that people’s opinions and beliefs influence how they act. And the opinions and beliefs that people hold of other people influence their behavior towards them.

And so, I protest the continous quoting out of context verses that supposedly show that Judaism holds women to be inferior.

Whatsaktome, you are right about the way it is written and I’m sure Bruriah didn’t mean it in a disrespectful way either.

* Sorry, I meant to write aggadeta, not aggadah…

yeshivaguy, what?! I’m genuinely puzzled which subject we are changing?

Bruriah, what was disrespectful is bringing sources from the Mishna, Rashi, and R’ Elyyashiv that don’t make women appear inferior but present aggadeta that makes men appear in a worse light than women. That is unforgivable. 😉

Gadolhadorah, I believe, as akuperma has mentioned as well, that a car will not be able to be simply programmed and set before Shabbos as it will have many factors to consider and react outside of what is able to be pre-programmed.

akuperma, thanks for the explanation regarding a self-driving car. I assumed that there’s too many reactive factors involved that the car would have to consider and react accordingly to the circumstances, like traffic speeds for example, so I didn’t ask that in my question to you. I asked why you consider an elevator to be different than a light set with a timer as an elevator is programmed before Shabbos at a predertimined speed and stops?

Non Political, there is no problem with simply pointing out the high medreiges women can arrive at. There’s nothing here in of itself, even without comparing these great women to Deborah Hanavia, that contradicts Chazal in any case…

Klugeryid, If you read my earlier posts you would understand why we are upset with Joseph specifically, however I take the blame for making it into a personal fight with him. Regardless of his personal opinions, I shouldn’t of attacked him personally. Syag did not fight with Joseph at all, she only pointed out why he bought up the topic specifically now in the 9 days because it can cause strife- and it did, but is was not over the Chazal specifically…

DY, Is Sara Schnirer and her students who built bais Yaacovs and saved the Jewish nation from disintegration included in the “exceptions”? And which Chazal rule are you talking about?

CA, ok, it’s an interesting point that you are making regarding women having lower spiritual end points but you don’t quote a source so until I see a source I’ll take it as your opinion.

In any case, I don’t think a woman being a nevuah is such a low spiritual point… And people’s highest spiritual point is set high enough for both men and women – our spiritual potential is immensely great and not in any way “low” for women as you claim it is. I’d be overjoyed if I reach my spiritual potential at 120, even if I don’t end up being a tzaddik gemor…as will most men be happy to reach their potential even if most of them WOULD NOT end up tzakkikim gemirim even if they would fulfill their spiritual potential.

As Reb Zusya of Hanipoli said he will be asked in the next world why he’s did not rise to the level of Rav Zusya, not why he wasn’t a Moshe Rabbeinu.

So as far as I’m concerned, we each have our own spiritual destiny, capabilities and potential that doesn’t hinge only on being male or female but on many other factors.

CA, I’m not sure what your last two paragraphs are about… What does kinetic energy of male and female have to do with spiritual greatness? Am I missing some deep kabbalistic knowledge here? And I’m not sure about the students you are talking about. Seems to me you know who said women are on a higher spiritual plane as they spoke about that in the Mishpacha article and likely named the person who said it. If so, kindly enlighten us who it was.

A man can, in general, go further spiritually than a women because of the limud haTorah that men study while women are generally busy with the household and children. With that being said, one gender is not automatically greater than the other. Again, it depends on what one acheives as an individual.

Joseph, nobody claims there’s no difference in female vs male daas. However we can argue with your interpretation of daas into the English words “intelligence or cognizance”. Intelligence in my opinion, is individual, not specifically devided by gender. However, even if we are to argue that intelligence, as defined in the English language, is different in men and women because it is processed differently in male and female brain, nobody, including us women, argued otherwise…

Remember women were taught halacha before men after the giving of the Torah….We are not less intelligent, we have different daas and nobody said otherwise.

As I’ve said before, the problem many of us are having is not with Chazal as you are trying to insinuate, in fact, this topic is a fascinating one and it could make for a rather interesting discussion. The problem we have is that you are trying to prove for months, perhaps even years, or for as long as I’ve been on here, is that women are inferior to men. That is a dangerous notion and not based in Judasim at all. We have specific duties as men and women and despite the fact that men are more dominant IN SPECIFIC AREAS according to halacha, it does not indicate superiority or that women are in servitude of men as we have argued previously. That is a dangerous notion to have. It is more in line with Islam…and that’s why their women are more often than not mistreated.

Honestly, I have not read any of your posts, if there are any, on the opinion of what nd”k means. Just the mere fact, that I have not been on YWN for a while and come back and what do I see? Joseph posting a comment of only women being scared of bears and bringing up a thread from 2011 about women…again. This is when I have had continuous arguments with you on different threads that supposedly “prove” that men can subjegate their wives, before I took a break from YWN. I would be very surprised that in the interim there were no threads by you “proving” how inferior we are. These are personal attacks from you against women.

As I’ve said before, I, and other women who have chimed in, have no problem with any Chazal, despite your arguing otherwise. This is another attack you make against us women- that since we don’t agree with your and your intentions, we supposedly c”v don’t agree with Chazal.

Please explain to us what your intention is when the vast majority of your threads and comments is about “proving”, according to YOUR VERSION of Yiddishkeit, that women are inferior to men.

Syag, thanks. Some individuals are so offensive, they can make the most frum women sound liberal when we stick up for ourselves …

Well, I’d say it could be true because the name yankelehcohen with the Sephardi sounding title with the word “tniut” didn’t make sense. As far as I know “yankele” or “yanky” is only used by Ashkenazim.
Also “yankelecohen” never chimed in after his first post, unless I missed a comment of his.

Joseph, that is not accurate. Most Chasidim do not go out at 17 years of age ( actually most Chassidim do not go out at all- we have beshows). We started listening to shidduchim for my son when he was 19 and he got married by 20. My 19 year old daughter just started shidduchim, most of the boy’s that are read are alproximately 20 years of age. We are a regular Chassidishe family listening to regular Chassidishe boys. My daughter has only 4 engaged girls out of her class of 30. She attended a very Chassidishe school.

Even Satmer boys who get engaged young are generally at least 18 years of age while there could be kallahs 17 years of age but they wait until they are 18 to get married and they are a minority. Most boys and girls in the very frum Chassidishe crowd are at least 18 when they start listening. I do know of a Rebbishe girl who got engaged at 16 and married at 17. But even for Rebbishe, it is very young. My friend has an 18 year old son in Satmer yeshiva and none of his classmates are engaged yet.

The trend is certainly not 17 years of age. In Israel 17 years of age is also not the norm. Maybe by the Meah Shaerim Chassidishe like Reb Aharon’s Chassidim, maybe they go at that age. I’m not familiar with that shidduchim scene.

Well, how would Been Shapiro know that baby Adolf y”s would be a killer?

If Ben Shapiro thinks German-Austrian volk were Amelek should he have killed them all? As crazy as Adolf was, he could only thrive and carry out his deeds because the Germans and all of the Europeans who helped him, enabled him to so. So why is the question only regarding Hitler y”s? In any case, the Amaleik question was not what the media had an in mind.

The question is not relevant. We don’t know how anyone will turn out to be. If we would know he would be a killer we would also know those who actually did the killing and those who put him in power and enable him to carry out his gruesome deeds. That would mean hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of abortions. Which I can tell you all of a sudden these abortion butchers would not want to carry out, only those whom the mother deems unworthy of living because she has no PATIENCE to take care of the baby or because the baby is disabled. But if the baby would grow up killer of Jews, then we can’t kill these innocent babies, can we?

Anyway, again it’s irrelevant because we have no clue what kind of person a baby will be when they grow up.

Yisro, I’m not violating halacha by saying more money and kochos should be put into making sure frum people know and keep basic halacha than all money and effort going into trying to make baalie teshuvas. This is my opinion. I couldn’t care less if you think I’m out of my mind and I won’t change my mind just because you say so. I’m not saying a Baal Teshuva cannot be on a higher spiritual level than a FFB, or more chushav in Hashem’s eyes. Don’t fardrey what I’m saying. What I do see is a constant lowering of standards in music, dress, action to gefel and look cool and normal to those people many are trying to attract to Yiddishkeit whether they are not frum Jews or OTDs. And I firmly believe that before people start trying to make Baal teshuvas they need to keep basic halachas. Besides the secular world, especially in the US, is getting more and more dangerous. Soon you will not know if you are dealing with a man or woman. I think people like you are very naive. First a Jewish home has to be kodosh. That is the number one priority.

Mod-29 I’m glad to have made your day 🙂

LLW, you mean we should just be good Jews at heart and dress however we want? We just need to act nice to goyim and all is right ? Absolutely not. That is not what Yiddishkeit is all about. That is why women dress so pritzusdig these days because they are given the green light to do so.

We are supposed to dress and act b’tznius because this is what Hashem asks of us, not according to how goyim percieve us. Btw, dressing goyish and pritzusdig causes Hashem’s anger and He withholds his protection from goyim’s hatred. I see a correlation between the recent upscale in anti-Semitic incidents in the US and the way frum women AND men dress, trying to blend in with the goyim by hiding their Jewishness. If we don’t shape up it will spin out of control. The Holocaust started in Germany because so many sought to “show the goyim” that they are proper German citizens and it blew up in their faces. We don’t have to “show” anyone anything. We need to live as Jews and be tzniusdig with our dress and actions.

Syag Lchochma, please explain why it’s a dumb post to judge women who don’t dress b’tznius in public and negatively effect others. This is not only between Hashem and an individual, this effects men in general, besides that it also effects these women’s children in a negative way. It also effects women who think it’s ok to dress this way with the mentality of “if she dresses this way, then ok for me too” …

Judaism places a big emphasis on tznius because this is a yesod of Yiddishkeit!