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zahavasdad, exactly.
Syag, there were instances where criminals admitted to their deeds. I never said that criminals do it often, but it happens especially IF hard evidence does turn up and they can get longer sentences if they don’t admit guilt…
I understand that you need everything spelled out and you keep on harping on semantics ( like if I know what black and white means and with me stating numbers that were obviously my opinion but you devoted many posts to condemning that even if in my subsequent posts I said that I should’ve written it out – for people that don’t get that it was obviously my opinion…)
Now, I understand that you think that these things laws are black and white, kid get abused H”y and can’t overcome their pain until 50 years later when they sue presenting hard evidence to support their claims ….sorry it won’t work that way for the vast majority of cases.
“By default every single Jew would be doing all 613 mitzvos it’s just that his neshoma is covered up by dirt. The more you reveal the neshoma the more the more dirt falls off and being able to do more mitzvos and come closer to Hashem.”
Agreed. But how do you verify who is an halachik Jew?
This law only makes sense if one can sue those responsible for protection and employment of a molester, not the institution itself. And the victims have to have proof that the enablers knew about the molestation. But after so many years have passed, it is doubtful that any institution will have the same administrators as when the alleged abuse took place.
Victims should only be able to sue if the abuser admitted to his crime and if there has come to light sufficient proof of abuse. There are so many new cases being filed and I’m very doubtful that for the majority of these cases proof of abuse came up so many years later.
Joseph, not only are you right about Clinton and Kennedy being more immoral, but they were immoral in office while Trump was immoral before coming into office. A person can change and we have to judge him as he’s currently.
Nechama, non-Jews go to Gan Eden too. (Non-Jews can be tzaddikim too, Adam and Noach for example were tzaddikim.) The reshuim whose souls cannot be purified go to to the shaul tachtes, the netherworld.
Ok, perhaps purification is a better descriptive word than cleansing.
CS, we all believe Hashem created everything for our good so going through Gehenim as a purification for our souls must be good for us as well. Although I hope to do teshuva so I wouldn’t end up in Gehenim at all…
Really now, I thought cleansing in gehenim means taking a shower! Boy was I mistaken!
Laskern, I would assume, that for some neshomos it’s a cleansing process and for mass murderers it’s an everlasting punishment. I don’t think Hitler y”s and those responsible the Crusades or Inquisition can ever be cleansed. Also if I remember correctly, people who b’davka cause others to sin can never be cleansed of their sins.
Mushky, What is the Chabad way of looking at things?
Laskern, what does it mean when the harm happens often? I would assume that means in a time of דין in which tragedies happen often as in our situation that has been going on this summer.
People are human and make mistakes. There are also many people who disregard basic safety rules. In Hashem’s great rachamim, He saves us all the time unless there’s a specific cheshbon otherwise. But now, as Rav Brudny said ” is clearly a midas hadin out there that manifests itself in mayim.”
We need to take precautions and follow safety rules and common sense, that is the first step in preventing tragedies. But clearly, with so many stories, there’s more going on than only not obeying rules.
I don’t understand your post. If only the top most sinful people are tortured then why is Gehinnim full of pain and punishment? It should only be partly full of pain and punishment if it’s only in the top tie?
And why is cleansing of the soul in gehenim a fabrication? I would assume, without basing my thoughts/feelings on sources but what on what I’ve been taught, that punishment in gehenim is individual. Some people need cleansing of sin and are afterwards get into gan Eden while some mass murderers like Hitler y”s and Stalin y”s are there forever.
Whoever thinks there’s no corruption in the US “justice system” is not very familiar with it. Every few months people who have sat in jail for years, many even for decades, are released due to new evidence such as DNA testing or the coming to light prosecuters corruption in the presenting of “evidence”. Stories happen all the time of pressure on (fake) witnesses by police and criminals who for lighter sentence will give fake accounts of incidents. What exactly was “proven” during these trial where the defendants are found innocent after years of incarceration?
Thousands of people pay laywers tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars, getting torn to shreds financially and socially, while fighting for in court to prove their innocence even when it’s blatantly clear that they are innocent, but due to the corruption of lawyers, prosecutors, and judges, a case can be dragged for months and years in court.
Many frivolous lawsuits were awarded millions of dollars. Lawsuits were settled out of court, not because there was no chance of the defendants winnining, only because individuals and institutions did not want to go through the torture of trials that can stretch for years and rob them of their piece of mind or cause unwanted attention to individuals or companies.
And this is all with reasonable laws that were created to keep criminals off the streets. But laws that are unreasonable will introduce more abuse to the already abused system.
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Syag, Hashem’s law is that proof must be bought into court for another person to be found guilty.
The problem in many of our communities is that in some instances of abuse H”y ( b”H there are not many instances and most Rabbonim are supportive of the victim if it c”v does happen) the abusers are generally known to the public or Rabbonim as they are sick individuals who are generally repeat offenders. But some Rabbonim protect them because of the perps families that they don’t want to destroy and with the hope that they will be rehabilitated will the help of therapy. The trauma of the victims are conveniently forgotten and ignored.
However, there are instances where people were wrongly accused of abuse. This is a very sensitive topic of dinai nefashos and is not black and white.
But what is black and white that it’s evil is this new law which will create, as the little I know aptly put it “a circus of monetary awards”. Crooks don’t need to bring proof, just a story that will move social warrior judges to tears.
Syag, how can there be the same administrations as when the alleged abuse went on 30, 45 or even more years earlier?!
klugeryid, I agree with you. A victim should be able to get monetary compensation. I just don’t agree with upping the age that one can sue to 55 as I believe this law will now be abused to large extent since no proof can nor needs to be bought in the majority of cases.
I.also agree with the little I know that there will be a “circus of monetary awards” that will bankrupt yeshivas (and institutions) for actions of PREVIOUS administrations.
I believe in a complete ban of assault weapons and semi-automatic guns. Only concealed guns should be legal.
And recreational drugs should never be legalized. Legalizing drugs is not only a liberal idea, I remember years ago Sean Hannity promoting the use of lighter drugs ( I’m not so familiar with drugs b”H so I don’t remember which one it was he was promoting relugar use of… ) Maybe conservatives nowadays changed their tune after it became a liberal issue…
Southern Yid, sinas chinum against whom? The OP stated why he thinks Zionism doesn’t work on getting Jews interested in Judaism and others said it’s because of financial consideration that Aish is promoting Zionism. I hardly think that’s sinas chinum.
Next, I said that in this generation we should not be actively he seeking people to make baalie teshuvas in the US because of the realities of society today. The tumah and repercussions we are living with is a fact of life. Talking about the realities of secular life is not sinas chinum so I don’t know what you are referring to. You can hide your head in the sand, I don’t choose to do so. Of course, it’s the right of any Jew, secular or religious, to come closer Hashem and His Torah, and they should be helped in any way, but for frum people to go into places of tumah and to run after people of questionable origin (as is the fact today in the secular world whether one wants to face it or not) is not what we should be doing in the kiruv world today. Today’s kiruv should be about strengthening Jews born into frum families.
In the US it’s a different story, but in Israel it’s important to have institutions like Aish where people come to them to get more knowledgable about Judaism. Even if most of these people don’t end up religious, it’s still important to have the availability of these classes for people who search for meaning and truth in life. Regarding their pro-Zionism stand they may not have much of a choice if that’s what gets them the $ to be able to continue to do what they are doing. I don’t think that in the long run Zionism influences anybody for or against becoming religious.
interjection, many secular liberal Israelis are anti-Israel. Anti-Zionism doesn’t have to do with Trump- it has to do with hatred of Jews by non-Jews and liberal Jews. Yes, Jews can hate Jews and anything associated with Jews.
I don’t understand how peole can do kiruv in the USA. I don’t want to bash Lubavitchers in general, they are amazing people, but I just want to point out the hypocrisy of some people trying to do kiruv in spiritual snake pits – I have see a pic of two Chabad “rabbis” in some sort of disco dancing near (not with) two obviously see women. People are putting themselves into tumah just to try to snag a soul to do teshuva while there’s no way that being surrounded by such tumah doesn’t affect them… It’s not Chabad, it’s the kiruv idea that makes no sense today in this crazy society.
Are people living with their heads in the sand? It’s 2019, not 1980. You can’t know who is male or female today, if people’s parents are their real parents ( goyim/non-frum people are posting videos of surprising results of their dna tests…the results are mamesh like the revelation of who is a bechor during makos bechoros in mitzrayim) and of course the halachik ramifications of who is the real mother of people who got pregnant through artificial means.
Please, just do kiruv with OTDs or those who are floundering. Or in Israel where there’s still a semblence of decency and the knowledge of who is a Jew as many things are under the Rabbinate’s control.
Money for Jewish education should be going to frum people who are struggling financially to keep their kids in frum schools not for some kids who may or may not be Jewish.
I have personally experienced a story 20 years ago! of a girl from Russia who they originally thought was Jewish, they put her through camp Russia and bought her to the US where they put her through high school. Afterwards they found out she’s not even Jewish. And this was 20 years ago when they were many Russian Jews who were becoming baalie teshuvas who set up beautiful Jewish families. But now these stories of non-Jews mix-up is even more than way back then. I have read in Hamodia’s Inyan a few months back about a boy who’s mother was a lying drug addict and the only way they knew this boy was Jewish was because his mother said so. They bought instances in the story where the mother lied and disappeared from the boy’s life in the end after taking money that was supposed to be going to her son’s ticket to bring him to England. And on the basis of what that lying drug addict thief of a mother claimed, the boy was thought to be a Jew…
The little I know, the yeshiva was sued for employing a known molester ( I’m not saying I know that for a fact to be true, I’m just stating the facts of the case). If it is indeed true that there were numerous allegations against this individual, the yeshiva should have not let him work there. They deserve the punishment they got.
Joseph, wearing any lavish party dress and shoes at work or when shopping will cause heads to turn, it doesn’t particularly have to be gown length. Just like burquas cause people to stare. And they are gown length. Do you believe burquas are not tzniusdig?
Abba_S, it costs a lot of money simply to be sued and dragged to court. Mosdos don’t have an extra dollar, never mind paying for laywers for long drawn out trials- these things can go on for months and even years.
Mammele why are gowns not tzniusdig? 120 years ago everyone wore floor length dresses and it was tzniusdig and now it’s not? How is a longer length not tzniusdig? Short dresses and skirts, very and very elaborate wigs, today they wear almost down to waist… ,tight clothing, short sleeves not covering the elbows which I unfortunately see more and more, these are not tzniusdig. But covering the body more is not tzniusdig? I don’t agree with that.
In addition, it covers shoes in insane looking colors and styles that some women choose to wear these days so that’s another plus. They can show off these $600 designer shoes in an everlasting picture so that they can be remembered forever.
DaasYochid, thank you.
anonymous Jew, it bothers me is 1. because I don’t have blind faith in our “justice” system. Read Lakewill’s post for some perspective. 2. I know people who are incredibly viscous and know how to lie like you’d never believe and many of them have no problem ruining other people’s lives by telling lies to get money or for other reasons.
What’s wrong with changing the statude of limitations to 25 years of age? It is highly suspicious when suddenly reminds themselves at age 35, 45 or 55 that they were abused. Remember Judge Kavanaough will all his accusers? There are meshegoyim out there that have no problem abusing such a law.
I’m not hiding the fact that is was my projection and opinion. I neglected to say that in my original post because I thought it’s self-evident. I apologized for not writing that in my original post. If that’s sheker in your book, so be it. It’s not sheker in my book because I’m not selling an untruth, I simply forgot to write that it’s my opinion because I thought it’s obvious to everyone that it’s my opinion as there cannot be statistics on a law that is not yet signed into law.
I am very impressed that you are so extremely careful not to ever make mistakes. I am not on your modreige, unfortunately.
anonymous Jew, please point out where I’ve said all accusations are false. I believe a majority of these cases will be false. And I don’t agree with you that there are always facts available in these cases, especially 55 years later! That’s insane! It does not take up to 55 years for a person to wake up! Upping the age to 25 is perfectly understandable, but till 55 is absolutely ridiculous!
There were many people imprisoned simply because the victims were more BELIEVABLE, not necessarily because facts were presented.
Syag, ok whatever. I thought it was obvious, but not to you I guess. But you want to be riled up about my projection, go ahead, be my guest.
Btw, I can rant against this act how much I want. Too bad if it bothers you.
RebYidd, I said “exactly” for your post regarding people spending more than what they have, but not for your post saying takanos is a bandaid. I totally agree that people should understand that they can’t spend more than they have. But in real life and with most people it doesn’t work. As I said before, takonos are not new because this problem is not new.
Syag, sorry, I should’ve state that it was my opinion but I thought it was obvious as this act was just enacted so nobody can have any statistics on this act yet ( and never will but that’s another story).
RebYidd, exactly.
Syag, well obviously my opinion is not facts – there is no one one will know that actual number of actual cases of abuse because there is no proof! If you think that people now are not being accused wrongly then you are wrong. Kol shekein after so many years have passed there will be even more innocent people being dragged into this. So maybe 95% of the people won’t be innocent, but even if 50% of innocent people who will be effected by this law and their lives left in financial and emotional ruin, that is enough.
I know for a fact, that normal looking people can actually be very sick and implicate innocent people. There were people accused who claimed they were innocent and given lie detectors test which proved that they were saying the truth. But lie detector tests can not always be used in court.
The bottom line is that proof will not be able to be provided in most cases and this will be taken advantage of by sick individuals of which there are many out there.
heimisheessence, Thanks, I’m glad you found my answer useful. Just to clear up in case it wasn’t so obvious, what I’ve written in my first paragraph is what I’ve heard from Rabbi Tatz, the second paragraph is my own opinion that I’ve come to after much observation, I do not remember Rabbi Tatz mentioning that in the droshes I heard of him talking on this topic but I could be wrong and he could have said it- I just don’t remember him saying it.
Rabbi Akiva Tatz has some very interesting droshes on Torah Anytime on the topic of shidduchim that I found very insightful. I listen to him on this topic (and many others) so that I can know how to guide my children in shidduchim. In my 45 years of age where I’ve seen, experienced, and questioned, I’m so impressed of Rabbi Tatz’s clarity that he provides on many confusing topics.
Up until the last year or two I also had this mentality that everyone should do what they want if regarding simchos, if they can afford it. But then I realized how immoral behavior have seeped into the the secular society just by being exposed to this behavior on a constant basis, and it has been accepted as normal by a vast percentage of Americans. Because that’s how people are, what people are exposed to constantly affects their thought and behavior. This is with everything even with weddings.
Takanos are not a new thing that evolved in the last few years. There were many takanos throughout the centuries, chasunah takanos, burial takanos ( every generation with their meshugassen…) and other simcha takanas. I believe it was the Vilna Gaon, or another big Rav in that time, who who made chasunah takanos.
The US government is becoming crazier and crazier. This act will bring justice to maybe 5 % of vitims (who had many years prior to come forward) and keep the corrupt “justice system” that employs millions of judges and employees with jobs, not to mention enriching lawyers, while 95% of the people getting hit by this will be innocent people. It’s utterly depicable.
Klugeryid, thanks.
devny, I’m so jealous! I wish my husband would be more like yours.
Chasaanim need to be taught how behave in this ultra-considerate and authoritive manner ( not a stira bichlal) that is rightfully their right. It would really help with stressful sholom bayis situations that so many people are experiencing these days.
denvy, as funny as your comment was, I think that there are always openings in special education because besides for kids who really need it, even kids who wouldn’t need special Ed in an optimal educational system, today every kid is forced into a mold that requires them to need the services of special Ed just to keep up (and chugging along…) until they are fee of the prison called school.. There’s barely any time for free play and sports and creative kids are overloaded with memorization and boredom instead of having subjects taught that they can excel in like music and drama (real subjects in the secular world. Whats the need to know French history for example?! Who cares that what’s her name (I forgot) told the peasents to eat cake…it’s irrelevant. Teach these kids education that matters to them .
Our educational system creates kids that need special Ed so the field may be saturated, but not oversaturated.
And social work, well with everyone having to be treated for all kinds of disorders, ocd, odd, add, ADHD, xyz…practically everyone needs some help from the goyishe psychology that helped produce such a wonderful society of drug addicts, depressed people, gender “change” krankeit, kid teenage pregnancy…we need these hashkofos in our communities so that we can help everyone with their issues that was cooked up by these same people.
Rabbi Akiva Tatz said that the first thing one must look for in a potential spouse is if they are attracted to the person. But one doesn’t have to have this special feeling to know for sure that that’s the right one and it’s normal to be hesitant even after engagement because that’s human nature.
It’s a bracha to have an instictive feeling that this is the right one but it doesn’t happen to most people. And having that initial magical feeling doesn’t guarantee a successful marriage.
anonymous Jew, certainly people would like to mind their own business and ideally should mind their own business. But life is not black and white. What do you do when you have teenage girls who don’t want to look and feel poor by using a wedding dress repeatedly? I know a parent has to be able to say no regardless but it still creates tension. And then there are women who put pressure on their husbands by buying these dresses at every simcha, especially when the dresses cost a few thousand dollars to rent, all because nobody wears a gown twice.
There are people who do their own thing and don’t care what people think, myself included, I couldn’t care less what people do and think. But I’m sorry to say most people don’t want to do differently that what others do, it makes them feel uncomfortable. And that very often causes strain because most people don’t even have the money to cover these expensive and extraneous expenses.
RebYidd has a point …even lower priced gowns are expensive especially when there are a lot of girls in the family…and to use it for one night doesn’t make sense in my opinion. But when used even twice it makes much more sense to pay a few hundred dollars for a gown. The problem is that many girls and many women are embarassed wear the same dress twice.
Syag, yesterday I told klugeryid I will not be replying to his questions again that we jumped on Joseph for nothing because I realized I was bashing Joseph for days more than my original condemning of this behavior. I originally jumped in when klugeryid kept on bashing you for criticizing Joseph as I felt it was me who really did that. Then I continously explained to him why. But with my continuous “explanations” all I did was bash Jospeh more which made me feel even worse for calling him out- I don’t feel good about bashing anybody and I feel bad about over one remark especially I made to Joseph. I can’t decide if I called out a bully or I’m the bully…but by me continuously stating why I did it, all I’m doing is repeating my bashing…
interjection, thanks for putting it down so well.
Non Political, I totally agree with you especially with what you said “Whether or not Agadata dictates Halacha they are part of our Heilig Torah and we have an obligation to understand them in line with the intent of the Ba’alei Mesorah. Something being an Agadeta is not a license to disregard it or to interpet it as one sees fit.”
That is why it’s so important to bring Rabbinical sources to support our views. But sometimes we have interesting opinions like yours about Devorah Hanoviah that you have no Rabbinical sources, that is only your viewpoint which but it has logical merit. You can say our views should be based on the intent of the baalei mesorah…that is the point that I’m trying to make. Trying to bring only sources that seem to paint women in a negative or inferior light is not what our Rabbis are trying to say as they also point to the chashivas of women as well. What they are saying is people, as men and women and as individuals we have our strengths and weakness.
Bruriah, honestly I don’t know what to think anymore. I don’t know Loshen Hakodesh that well to translate each word appropriately and it seems that besides for “pretty girls” the translation is accurate. But everyone is angry with your interpretation… Could it be that the translations could have had a more revered tone towards Chazal? I’m not accusing, I’m just asking because besides for “pretty girls” no one has come up with something else. Btw, I very highly doubt Joseph is the moderator. Why? I don’t know for sure but that is my opinion.
I am seeing many interpretations of nd”k in a literal way and as basis of halacha . I found support for my earlier opinion that nd”k means that women get more emotionally invested than men and therefore we would not be good for paskening halacha, with Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt”l, (who incidently I quoted often in different instances) who says the similar in different words, that nd”k means that women are more emotional and therefore easier to be persuaded ( for the good and the bad…)
Non Political, ok maybe I did not see what others are seeing…I don’t know. I also don’t remember her having a feminist rant. My mind is stuffed at this point and I can’t go back to reread the posts again but I’m don’t remember a feminist rant by Bruriah.
As for the teitch, it is true that one cannot learn pshat from an English translation – the translation is just for us to understand the context but maybe the reverence was missing in the post..I was just so excited to see the verse within context as opposed to being thrown around.
I do see our half baked peshatim may be more than half baked. I think your opinion on this issue regarding Devorah Hanoviah is compelling.
And I have also come upon two sources that said Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt”l said that nd”k means that women are more subject to persuasion due to being more emotional as I have suspected and posted that I believe that’s what nd”k means. I think women are more emotional because they are nurturers and get more emotionally involved with people and therefore they may not be neutral in poskening halacha.