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Southern Yid, sinas chinum against whom? The OP stated why he thinks Zionism doesn’t work on getting Jews interested in Judaism and others said it’s because of financial consideration that Aish is promoting Zionism. I hardly think that’s sinas chinum.
Next, I said that in this generation we should not be actively he seeking people to make baalie teshuvas in the US because of the realities of society today. The tumah and repercussions we are living with is a fact of life. Talking about the realities of secular life is not sinas chinum so I don’t know what you are referring to. You can hide your head in the sand, I don’t choose to do so. Of course, it’s the right of any Jew, secular or religious, to come closer Hashem and His Torah, and they should be helped in any way, but for frum people to go into places of tumah and to run after people of questionable origin (as is the fact today in the secular world whether one wants to face it or not) is not what we should be doing in the kiruv world today. Today’s kiruv should be about strengthening Jews born into frum families.
In the US it’s a different story, but in Israel it’s important to have institutions like Aish where people come to them to get more knowledgable about Judaism. Even if most of these people don’t end up religious, it’s still important to have the availability of these classes for people who search for meaning and truth in life. Regarding their pro-Zionism stand they may not have much of a choice if that’s what gets them the $ to be able to continue to do what they are doing. I don’t think that in the long run Zionism influences anybody for or against becoming religious.
interjection, many secular liberal Israelis are anti-Israel. Anti-Zionism doesn’t have to do with Trump- it has to do with hatred of Jews by non-Jews and liberal Jews. Yes, Jews can hate Jews and anything associated with Jews.
I don’t understand how peole can do kiruv in the USA. I don’t want to bash Lubavitchers in general, they are amazing people, but I just want to point out the hypocrisy of some people trying to do kiruv in spiritual snake pits – I have see a pic of two Chabad “rabbis” in some sort of disco dancing near (not with) two obviously see women. People are putting themselves into tumah just to try to snag a soul to do teshuva while there’s no way that being surrounded by such tumah doesn’t affect them… It’s not Chabad, it’s the kiruv idea that makes no sense today in this crazy society.
Are people living with their heads in the sand? It’s 2019, not 1980. You can’t know who is male or female today, if people’s parents are their real parents ( goyim/non-frum people are posting videos of surprising results of their dna tests…the results are mamesh like the revelation of who is a bechor during makos bechoros in mitzrayim) and of course the halachik ramifications of who is the real mother of people who got pregnant through artificial means.
Please, just do kiruv with OTDs or those who are floundering. Or in Israel where there’s still a semblence of decency and the knowledge of who is a Jew as many things are under the Rabbinate’s control.
Money for Jewish education should be going to frum people who are struggling financially to keep their kids in frum schools not for some kids who may or may not be Jewish.
I have personally experienced a story 20 years ago! of a girl from Russia who they originally thought was Jewish, they put her through camp Russia and bought her to the US where they put her through high school. Afterwards they found out she’s not even Jewish. And this was 20 years ago when they were many Russian Jews who were becoming baalie teshuvas who set up beautiful Jewish families. But now these stories of non-Jews mix-up is even more than way back then. I have read in Hamodia’s Inyan a few months back about a boy who’s mother was a lying drug addict and the only way they knew this boy was Jewish was because his mother said so. They bought instances in the story where the mother lied and disappeared from the boy’s life in the end after taking money that was supposed to be going to her son’s ticket to bring him to England. And on the basis of what that lying drug addict thief of a mother claimed, the boy was thought to be a Jew…
The little I know, the yeshiva was sued for employing a known molester ( I’m not saying I know that for a fact to be true, I’m just stating the facts of the case). If it is indeed true that there were numerous allegations against this individual, the yeshiva should have not let him work there. They deserve the punishment they got.
Joseph, wearing any lavish party dress and shoes at work or when shopping will cause heads to turn, it doesn’t particularly have to be gown length. Just like burquas cause people to stare. And they are gown length. Do you believe burquas are not tzniusdig?
Abba_S, it costs a lot of money simply to be sued and dragged to court. Mosdos don’t have an extra dollar, never mind paying for laywers for long drawn out trials- these things can go on for months and even years.
Mammele why are gowns not tzniusdig? 120 years ago everyone wore floor length dresses and it was tzniusdig and now it’s not? How is a longer length not tzniusdig? Short dresses and skirts, very and very elaborate wigs, today they wear almost down to waist… ,tight clothing, short sleeves not covering the elbows which I unfortunately see more and more, these are not tzniusdig. But covering the body more is not tzniusdig? I don’t agree with that.
In addition, it covers shoes in insane looking colors and styles that some women choose to wear these days so that’s another plus. They can show off these $600 designer shoes in an everlasting picture so that they can be remembered forever.
DaasYochid, thank you.
anonymous Jew, it bothers me is 1. because I don’t have blind faith in our “justice” system. Read Lakewill’s post for some perspective. 2. I know people who are incredibly viscous and know how to lie like you’d never believe and many of them have no problem ruining other people’s lives by telling lies to get money or for other reasons.
What’s wrong with changing the statude of limitations to 25 years of age? It is highly suspicious when suddenly reminds themselves at age 35, 45 or 55 that they were abused. Remember Judge Kavanaough will all his accusers? There are meshegoyim out there that have no problem abusing such a law.
I’m not hiding the fact that is was my projection and opinion. I neglected to say that in my original post because I thought it’s self-evident. I apologized for not writing that in my original post. If that’s sheker in your book, so be it. It’s not sheker in my book because I’m not selling an untruth, I simply forgot to write that it’s my opinion because I thought it’s obvious to everyone that it’s my opinion as there cannot be statistics on a law that is not yet signed into law.
I am very impressed that you are so extremely careful not to ever make mistakes. I am not on your modreige, unfortunately.
anonymous Jew, please point out where I’ve said all accusations are false. I believe a majority of these cases will be false. And I don’t agree with you that there are always facts available in these cases, especially 55 years later! That’s insane! It does not take up to 55 years for a person to wake up! Upping the age to 25 is perfectly understandable, but till 55 is absolutely ridiculous!
There were many people imprisoned simply because the victims were more BELIEVABLE, not necessarily because facts were presented.
Syag, ok whatever. I thought it was obvious, but not to you I guess. But you want to be riled up about my projection, go ahead, be my guest.
Btw, I can rant against this act how much I want. Too bad if it bothers you.
RebYidd, I said “exactly” for your post regarding people spending more than what they have, but not for your post saying takanos is a bandaid. I totally agree that people should understand that they can’t spend more than they have. But in real life and with most people it doesn’t work. As I said before, takonos are not new because this problem is not new.
Syag, sorry, I should’ve state that it was my opinion but I thought it was obvious as this act was just enacted so nobody can have any statistics on this act yet ( and never will but that’s another story).
RebYidd, exactly.
Syag, well obviously my opinion is not facts – there is no one one will know that actual number of actual cases of abuse because there is no proof! If you think that people now are not being accused wrongly then you are wrong. Kol shekein after so many years have passed there will be even more innocent people being dragged into this. So maybe 95% of the people won’t be innocent, but even if 50% of innocent people who will be effected by this law and their lives left in financial and emotional ruin, that is enough.
I know for a fact, that normal looking people can actually be very sick and implicate innocent people. There were people accused who claimed they were innocent and given lie detectors test which proved that they were saying the truth. But lie detector tests can not always be used in court.
The bottom line is that proof will not be able to be provided in most cases and this will be taken advantage of by sick individuals of which there are many out there.
heimisheessence, Thanks, I’m glad you found my answer useful. Just to clear up in case it wasn’t so obvious, what I’ve written in my first paragraph is what I’ve heard from Rabbi Tatz, the second paragraph is my own opinion that I’ve come to after much observation, I do not remember Rabbi Tatz mentioning that in the droshes I heard of him talking on this topic but I could be wrong and he could have said it- I just don’t remember him saying it.
Rabbi Akiva Tatz has some very interesting droshes on Torah Anytime on the topic of shidduchim that I found very insightful. I listen to him on this topic (and many others) so that I can know how to guide my children in shidduchim. In my 45 years of age where I’ve seen, experienced, and questioned, I’m so impressed of Rabbi Tatz’s clarity that he provides on many confusing topics.
Up until the last year or two I also had this mentality that everyone should do what they want if regarding simchos, if they can afford it. But then I realized how immoral behavior have seeped into the the secular society just by being exposed to this behavior on a constant basis, and it has been accepted as normal by a vast percentage of Americans. Because that’s how people are, what people are exposed to constantly affects their thought and behavior. This is with everything even with weddings.
Takanos are not a new thing that evolved in the last few years. There were many takanos throughout the centuries, chasunah takanos, burial takanos ( every generation with their meshugassen…) and other simcha takanas. I believe it was the Vilna Gaon, or another big Rav in that time, who who made chasunah takanos.
The US government is becoming crazier and crazier. This act will bring justice to maybe 5 % of vitims (who had many years prior to come forward) and keep the corrupt “justice system” that employs millions of judges and employees with jobs, not to mention enriching lawyers, while 95% of the people getting hit by this will be innocent people. It’s utterly depicable.
Klugeryid, thanks.
devny, I’m so jealous! I wish my husband would be more like yours.
Chasaanim need to be taught how behave in this ultra-considerate and authoritive manner ( not a stira bichlal) that is rightfully their right. It would really help with stressful sholom bayis situations that so many people are experiencing these days.
denvy, as funny as your comment was, I think that there are always openings in special education because besides for kids who really need it, even kids who wouldn’t need special Ed in an optimal educational system, today every kid is forced into a mold that requires them to need the services of special Ed just to keep up (and chugging along…) until they are fee of the prison called school.. There’s barely any time for free play and sports and creative kids are overloaded with memorization and boredom instead of having subjects taught that they can excel in like music and drama (real subjects in the secular world. Whats the need to know French history for example?! Who cares that what’s her name (I forgot) told the peasents to eat cake…it’s irrelevant. Teach these kids education that matters to them .
Our educational system creates kids that need special Ed so the field may be saturated, but not oversaturated.
And social work, well with everyone having to be treated for all kinds of disorders, ocd, odd, add, ADHD, xyz…practically everyone needs some help from the goyishe psychology that helped produce such a wonderful society of drug addicts, depressed people, gender “change” krankeit, kid teenage pregnancy…we need these hashkofos in our communities so that we can help everyone with their issues that was cooked up by these same people.
Rabbi Akiva Tatz said that the first thing one must look for in a potential spouse is if they are attracted to the person. But one doesn’t have to have this special feeling to know for sure that that’s the right one and it’s normal to be hesitant even after engagement because that’s human nature.
It’s a bracha to have an instictive feeling that this is the right one but it doesn’t happen to most people. And having that initial magical feeling doesn’t guarantee a successful marriage.
anonymous Jew, certainly people would like to mind their own business and ideally should mind their own business. But life is not black and white. What do you do when you have teenage girls who don’t want to look and feel poor by using a wedding dress repeatedly? I know a parent has to be able to say no regardless but it still creates tension. And then there are women who put pressure on their husbands by buying these dresses at every simcha, especially when the dresses cost a few thousand dollars to rent, all because nobody wears a gown twice.
There are people who do their own thing and don’t care what people think, myself included, I couldn’t care less what people do and think. But I’m sorry to say most people don’t want to do differently that what others do, it makes them feel uncomfortable. And that very often causes strain because most people don’t even have the money to cover these expensive and extraneous expenses.
RebYidd has a point …even lower priced gowns are expensive especially when there are a lot of girls in the family…and to use it for one night doesn’t make sense in my opinion. But when used even twice it makes much more sense to pay a few hundred dollars for a gown. The problem is that many girls and many women are embarassed wear the same dress twice.
Syag, yesterday I told klugeryid I will not be replying to his questions again that we jumped on Joseph for nothing because I realized I was bashing Joseph for days more than my original condemning of this behavior. I originally jumped in when klugeryid kept on bashing you for criticizing Joseph as I felt it was me who really did that. Then I continously explained to him why. But with my continuous “explanations” all I did was bash Jospeh more which made me feel even worse for calling him out- I don’t feel good about bashing anybody and I feel bad about over one remark especially I made to Joseph. I can’t decide if I called out a bully or I’m the bully…but by me continuously stating why I did it, all I’m doing is repeating my bashing…
interjection, thanks for putting it down so well.
Non Political, I totally agree with you especially with what you said “Whether or not Agadata dictates Halacha they are part of our Heilig Torah and we have an obligation to understand them in line with the intent of the Ba’alei Mesorah. Something being an Agadeta is not a license to disregard it or to interpet it as one sees fit.”
That is why it’s so important to bring Rabbinical sources to support our views. But sometimes we have interesting opinions like yours about Devorah Hanoviah that you have no Rabbinical sources, that is only your viewpoint which but it has logical merit. You can say our views should be based on the intent of the baalei mesorah…that is the point that I’m trying to make. Trying to bring only sources that seem to paint women in a negative or inferior light is not what our Rabbis are trying to say as they also point to the chashivas of women as well. What they are saying is people, as men and women and as individuals we have our strengths and weakness.
Bruriah, honestly I don’t know what to think anymore. I don’t know Loshen Hakodesh that well to translate each word appropriately and it seems that besides for “pretty girls” the translation is accurate. But everyone is angry with your interpretation… Could it be that the translations could have had a more revered tone towards Chazal? I’m not accusing, I’m just asking because besides for “pretty girls” no one has come up with something else. Btw, I very highly doubt Joseph is the moderator. Why? I don’t know for sure but that is my opinion.
I am seeing many interpretations of nd”k in a literal way and as basis of halacha . I found support for my earlier opinion that nd”k means that women get more emotionally invested than men and therefore we would not be good for paskening halacha, with Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt”l, (who incidently I quoted often in different instances) who says the similar in different words, that nd”k means that women are more emotional and therefore easier to be persuaded ( for the good and the bad…)
Non Political, ok maybe I did not see what others are seeing…I don’t know. I also don’t remember her having a feminist rant. My mind is stuffed at this point and I can’t go back to reread the posts again but I’m don’t remember a feminist rant by Bruriah.
As for the teitch, it is true that one cannot learn pshat from an English translation – the translation is just for us to understand the context but maybe the reverence was missing in the post..I was just so excited to see the verse within context as opposed to being thrown around.
I do see our half baked peshatim may be more than half baked. I think your opinion on this issue regarding Devorah Hanoviah is compelling.
And I have also come upon two sources that said Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt”l said that nd”k means that women are more subject to persuasion due to being more emotional as I have suspected and posted that I believe that’s what nd”k means. I think women are more emotional because they are nurturers and get more emotionally involved with people and therefore they may not be neutral in poskening halacha.
Daas Yochid, sorry, I made a mistake. Indeed nd”k does dictate some halachos regarding yichud, shechting and perhaps other halachas I don’t know of.
Non Political, But why would we argue what ndk means for all women halachically or even only as a Chazal’s description of us if we are talking about an agadata that never has a practical application? As far as I know, agadatas never dictate halacha or define a reality.
Syag, I sincerely believe it was not with intent to denigrate our Chachomim, c”v but with amateur translation of each of every word with the intent on context it could happen by mistake, not with bad intent. But I may even be wrong and the words could be very accurately be translated, I’m not sure myself. I highly doubt that when learning every word is translated accurately with much thought though and for posting maybe 2-3 words, not even sentences could’ve been changed. But maybe not, it depends if it was extremely accurately or loosely translated…
That is not why you should make it seem as if the Bruriah’s post is so bad that it’s not worth reading…the words of the Mishna is more accurate with her post than other homemade peshutim that people are cooking up.
Klugeryid, as I have repeatedly said, it’s not the Chazal or the Ramban he quoted but the intent behind it. When a person is obsessed with finding verses and quoting it out of context so that it loses it’s original meaning, or neglecting meforshim that explain the meaning, or simply quoting verses without knowing the meaning but just trying to continuously to prove a point that other people are inferior THAT is the problem. If a person tries to understand a Chazal or a verse or a meforesh that seems to put down women or men or whatever and he posts that so that people can share their thoughts on the matter then that’s fine. But to do that over and over again against specific individuals is a mean obsession.
I have said mine and that’s that. I hope you understand and if not it’s also nisht geferlich but I won’t try to explain again.
Syag, please enlighten me what Bruriah said that you object to. She posted entire agadates of Mishna within context and bought legitimate sources of whatever she posted so besides for a 2-3 sentences that could’ve used more revered language towards our holy Sages (but I’m sure there was no bad intent), I fail to see what bothers you about her post.
klugeryid, I’m trying not to get into the personal attack mentality but I could see why I become like that with certain people…You cannot quote out of context Torah verses to prove your own points to denigrate others. It’s against the Torah, it’s a transgression of numerous halachos of adam lachveiro and it’s sheker. If you cannot understand this simple concept then your posting name is your own opinion and not a fact.
Well, one reason people are lost in this thread is because we were supposed to be arguing what Chazal meant with nd”k that was supposed to “prove” that women are inferior, but no one, including the men here who I expected more from, realized that we are talking about a verse that is an agadata and that was quoted out of context and not a something leading to halacha. But thanks to Bruriah for pointing us in the right direction…and this whole argument collapsed like a burst bubble.
Except for my original teina of people that have nothing better to do than find verses and quote them out of context trying to prove the inferiority of women, not once and not twice and not for weeks but at least for months, and maybe years. Why does it other me? 1. I’m an honest person and I hate when people spread lies or try to show how their krume views are supposedly dass Torah. That is sheker and I abhor that 2. Women deserve respect and not constant put-downs. I have been on a professional forum where people constantly spouted anti-Semitic views and I always stuck up for us Jews even though I could’ve said “who cares what these idiots think about us?” 3. It is my belief, and I have seen it in real life, that people’s opinions and beliefs influence how they act. And the opinions and beliefs that people hold of other people influence their behavior towards them.
And so, I protest the continous quoting out of context verses that supposedly show that Judaism holds women to be inferior.
klugeryid, you are not sure what his point was but i an others as well are not stupid. His comments don’t bother you because they are not directed at you and don’t try to prove a point about you. Would it be about you you wouldn’t be so passive about Joseph’s commentS.
Whatsaktome, you are right about the way it is written and I’m sure Bruriah didn’t mean it in a disrespectful way either.
Mod-29 did you just jump to a conclusion? 😉
I was thinking he meant a different inane opening post.* Sorry, I meant to write aggadeta, not aggadah…
Klugeryid, b’kitzer you sided with Joseph even when you had no clue as to the source and context of this particular Chazal but you agreed with his opinion just so that “these liberal women can be put in place…”
It’s becoming increasingly clear to me that the men supporting Joseph don’t always know the source and certainly not the context of his assertions. It’s just easier to say that women protesting this constant put-down are liberals. How convenient.
yeshivaguy, what?! I’m genuinely puzzled which subject we are changing?
CA, ok, but what do you want to prove, that because the nevius were women they were not tzeddeikas on very high spritiual levels?
Bruriah, what was disrespectful is bringing sources from the Mishna, Rashi, and R’ Elyyashiv that don’t make women appear inferior but present aggadeta that makes men appear in a worse light than women. That is unforgivable. 😉
Wow, Bruriah, amazing thanks for clearing that up!
And thanks for proving my point that there’s so much in the Torah and Torah sources proving the weakness of men and were anyone to keep harping on this issue just to try to “prove” that men are inferior it would freak anyone out- why is it ok to do so to women on a continuous basis noch dertzi when we don’t learn Gemorah and other Rabbinical sources so we don’t even have the proper answers?
Gadolhadorah, I believe, as akuperma has mentioned as well, that a car will not be able to be simply programmed and set before Shabbos as it will have many factors to consider and react outside of what is able to be pre-programmed.
klugeryid, I didn’t want to go into it as I did ask mechila from Joseph for going at him personally, but I want to point out that if you want to put on your blinders- that’s your decision. We will not be attacked continously about our supposed “inferiority” . If there would be a woman on this thread continously harping for years, hiding behind Torah sources of course, on the inferiority of men, there would also be a time where people would say enough. Opening a thread with the very words “I’m not sure why this makes people uncomfortable…” when Chazal’s words makes no frum person uncomfortable so why would he say that except to deliver his next punch of the Rambam on our “inferiority”. Enough is enough. You wouldn’t want me combing through Torah sources for months and years finding sources on the weakness of men. There is a minimum of respect and decency required – topics can be discussed with intellectual honest and not with an agenda behind it.
I’m not upset at myself for attacking his sick position only it bothers me that I projected two sentences about my opinion of his personal life. Otherwise I have no charata on what I said.
akuperma, thanks for the explanation regarding a self-driving car. I assumed that there’s too many reactive factors involved that the car would have to consider and react accordingly to the circumstances, like traffic speeds for example, so I didn’t ask that in my question to you. I asked why you consider an elevator to be different than a light set with a timer as an elevator is programmed before Shabbos at a predertimined speed and stops?