philosopher

“Reb” Eliezer, the Chassidishe communities don’t have to fix problems that don’t exist, even if it does in your mind…Your comment about luxuries is based on ignorance of our Chassidishe communities. There are definitely problems in certain Chassidishe communities regarding women and men having strong desire for luxuries and live on a higher standard than they can afford. In recent years some Rebbes have addressed the issue of lowering the standards for weddings and many have listened, but the everyday lifestyle standards were never addressed. Many Chassidishe people like nice cars, designer clothing and accessories and other things they can’t afford. I’m not saying it doesn’t create sholom bayis problems but because the divorce rate is generally low in the Chassidishe communities doesn’t mean these problems don’t exist within some Chassidishe communities.

Joseph, 90% or more of your posts are about womens’ obligations (or percieved obligations) to their husbands.

That is an obsession right there…Maybe you should think in the opposite direction and put forth some thought provoking questions of what husbands’ obligations are to their wives. It is healthy to be thinking not only of womans’ obligations to their husbands and but your brain should at least sometimes be thinking about husbands’ obligations to their wives if this is the generally the topic of your thought process.

Any rov will say that if the husband purchases for example, large properties for personal use, if the his family will live there, then the wife must be consulted. And of course, vice versa if the women makes such purchases. But if it is for business purposes where they have separate businesses, then this question is ridiculous because every normal husband wants his wife to be successful and automatically endorses substantial business transactions if she has a successful track record, and if the husband hampers a wife in any way, he’s obviously not fit for marriage. ( And good luck in court to the husband who tries to abolish large transactions made by his wife…)

Gadolhadorah, you are the one that read that theme when no one was implying that. Everyone who suported the OP simply said that a person needs to feel comfortable in the company of their guests, in a spiritual sense or otherwise, and it doesn’t matter if the guests are divorced or not.

Personally, I don’t get this inviting divorced women thing. In our Chassidishe community the women who are divorced eat at their own family’s Shabbos seudahs. Sometimes for Yom Tov divorced women do get invited out, but these women are already close friends to their hosts and their spouses are comfortable having them at their table. We used to have a divorced man over for some seudahs but he was my husband’s close friend and he almost never spoke to me or to my teenage daughters except saying “good Shabbos” in our general direction, saying “thank you” to me and inviting us all to his wedding. If the all guests behave like this, I’d say kol hakvod to hosting guests of the opposite gender…

My mother was divorced at a time when almost no one was in our community was and we ate by ourselves or at our grandparents’. It never occurred to us, and especially to my mother, to eat at other people seudahs and we would never have gone had we been invited out.

It is my mind-boggling that people accept this rumor without seeing any proof. It is not only mind-boggling, it rishus. And it’s against halacha. And what does it have to do with Satmer?! I’m anti anti-Zionism and I don’t accept such stories without proof on the basis of yapping tongues. Nor do I accept any other rumors floating around. Until there’s no proof that it was an “inside job” I take it as an act of anti-Semitism, regardless whether the Ramapo Police Department rejects that idea or not. I believe these rumors are floating around because the “mighty” RPD does not want to admit that it was an act of anti-Semitism and so every second person will jump to conclusions who the perpertrators were. We’ll see in a few days time, I hope. But for now, these rumors can ruin people’s lives…it’s unfair and immature to assume things.

Joseph, I want to ask mechila from you. I hope the 3 .oichel lochs include me as well. Although many of your posts bothered me, I don’t care anymore. I shouldn’t have gotten personal, I hope you forgive my harsh words to you.

And if I have hurt anyone else, please forgive me as well.

I say moichel loch, moichel loch, moichel loch as well.

Ah git gebentched your to all.

ubiquitin, did you marry off any kids? And if you did, did you do what you are advising others here to do?

rational, I agree. But at this point I’m not wearing a Shabbos dress to my kids’ weddings, I’m just trying to keep expenses “relatively” low… Don’t forget, a musician and singer costs money too- you can have mp3 players and do without them as well. Only close family like siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and first counsins should be invited to the meal, why invite neighbors, freinds, co-workers etc. ? There are expenses that cost way more than $800 for a dress. A bare-minimum, no extras wedding night costs about $10,000 excluding gowns, hairstyling, makeup, -I think the entire idea of spending this much for one night is a himmel geshrei.

The rosh yeshiva of Breslov yeshiva in Williamsburg is marrying off his own kids for $7,000, all wedding expenses included, including silver jewelry (not gold), cheap furniture, etc, mamesh everything is included for $7,000. Many of his talmidim have also done the $7000 wedding. The wedding night is celebrated in the yeshiva building, the meal is cooked by the yeshiva’s cook and served by the talmidim. They have an mp3 playing- no band. The women don’t rent dresses only wear their Shabbos clothing as the men do …

I personally wouldn’t give fake jewelry to a kallah and I do believe in buying strong furniture for young couples ( which costs $16,000-18,000). I just don’t think it’s right to spend over $10,000 for one night. That’s money flushed down the toilet in my opinion. I believe a wedding should cost nor more than $5,000 for both sides together with everything included and no extras like dress rentals.

Yossel Pupik, there were great tzaddikim who married early and our great Sages worked while learning. Starting shidduchim at 24 is ridiculous…And you didn’t answer me regarding Yeshivisha Israelis starting shidduchim at 21- are they weaker learners than all the groisse American talmidie chochomim who start dating at 24?

Joseph, Chassidishe boys marrying Yeshivishe girls is not a trend, they are exceptions, which will continue to happen but I can guarantee you it will not become a trend, certainly not in the next 100 years unless Moshiach comes before and things may be different. These kind of marriages are not new, “neutral” Chassidim CAN BE (but are not necessarily) similar to Yeshivisha/Litvishe but with shtreimlach and have “intermarried” for decades. Also, if people have what some consider “issues” that are hard to surmount within their communities they can “marry out” if they care more about shidduchim than others’ shittas. But most Chassidim are not neutral and would never make such a shidduch and vice versa- the average Yeshivishishe, no matter the age, will not be seeking to marry a Chassidishe person.

Also for some for whom this has worked are those who do not follow their parents derech and become more “modern” in levush and custom and they are more open to mixing with different types. But also this type of mixing is few and far in between, it is more common for these people to find their other “modern” half with backgrounds like their own.

Most Yeshivishe girls today don’t get engaged by 19 as they are in seminary or pursuing a degree and girls these days, many Chassidishe included, are generally more picky so it usually takes a longer time to find the right one. But still, 24 year old boys getting engaged to 20 year old girls is for sure contributing to the shidduch crisis.

In some Chassidishe circles girls are not in a rush to get married and they get engaged by 20 or 21 and oftentimes the boy is younger by a year or so. In my opinion if this trend continues, there will be a glut of “older bachurim” of age 21 and older years of age on the market. Its a Chassidishe shidduch crisis looming in some circles h”y if this trend continues. This upcoming trend excludes Sqvere, Monsey Viznitz, Satmer where the boys and girls generally go at a younger age of 17, 18 and 19 and they are generally not as picky and have “old-fashioned” ideals of kids marrying as soon as possible which has both pros and cons. Of course everything is bashert, but there are trends of thought patterns in each generation and I personally think that although going too quickly is not ideal ( although many are very successful with this shittah) girls going later age of 21+ in the Chassidishe oilim and Yeshivisha boys starting shidduchim at age 24 is playing with fire.

Although to be honest my daughter-in-law is a year older than my son, when I did the shidduch I had no clue that this is a new Chassidishe trend, but it she is the right girl for my son b”H. Shidduchim are bashert and the bottom line is that we don’t have much say even though we think we do, but it is also the truth that if this trend continues it is a shidduch crisis waiting to happen because by the time girls are ready to get married at age 21, there are boys years 18+ on the market so the pool of boys become bigger and the boys that are a year or two older than the girls have a smaller chance of finding a shidduch.

Again, everything is bashert and everyone should do what is right for them, but trends where everyone does the same thing is still dangerous.

Quayboardwarrior, that is not more than 10%, it’s just a different ten percent. Many people in those times dealt and traded wiith produce and herds, not necessarily coins, so that’s how they gave their ten percent of maaser.

And it’s ridiculous to mention challah, how much does that cost per batch of dough? Not even a few pennies per many dollars that comes in (if one sells baked goods). For the size of a half an egg of dough you take off you get 5 full sized challos and many bilkes, the loss of a few pennies is irrelevant according to money that comes in per batch, it’s WAY LESS than a percent.

Bringing up bikkurim is all irrelevant, a few fruits out of entire orchards does not prove your point of giving away more than ten percent. It just shows how little Hashem asked from us.

The bottom line is that a person gave away 10% of their income in whatever form it was, and a few fruits and an animal or bird, dough, etc. did not mean giving away more than 10% of one’s income.

Those living in Eretz Yisroel have other forms of maaser nowadays too besides giving away ten percent of one’s income to tzedaka and we all take challah too. If that affects in any way anyone’s net income then they are in very bad shape indeed. My point is that it has no affect, other than a few pennies or dollars, to our net income. It doesn’t make a dent in our net income but taxes nowadays could skin people alive.

The only time people were obligated to give away more than ten percent of their income was during shmitta. But only God can expect to make such demands of people because He promised to give back many times over what farmers lost.

heiliger yidele, what are you talking about? (Almost ) ALL Chassidishe women rent gowns ( in various lengths…) and for their kids too. Some Chassidishe people spend a bomb of money on gowns. Many of my friends, we’re all Chassidish, spent $3,000 on their gowns. I know there are Chassidishe women that can spend more ( and many spend less too). It doesn’t matter if it’s Chassidish or Yeshivish, we all rent or buy gowns.

Interesting, in the Chassidishe world boys are considered ready by 19, in some Chassidishe cirlces they even start shidduchim by 18. Most Chassidishe married men also start working at an earlier age than Yeshivishe men. Men starting shidduchim by 18-19 and working to support their families is more in line with what Chazal had in mind.

I really don’t get why Yeshivishe boys start shidduchim by 24. You don’t necessarily mature as you grow older, middos simply become more entrenched if one never worked on their middos at an earlier age. A boy or girls who is selfish by age 18 will most often be just as selfish, and sometimes even more, at age 24.

Reb Eliezer, besides I don’t get exactly whose “advice of the elders” you want me to follow… Maybe the one who supported Hillary the crook when she was running for president? Or other ones who support immorality pushing politicians?

In any case, I’m sure there will be a few Rabbonim supporting Trump, but most Rabbonim won’t give their support for any presidential candidate, certainly not the Rabbonim, I mean the elders, I listen to.

That may not be such good news for you who would love to see a kol korah banning voting for Trump. Sorry to dissapoint you but I can guarantee you that that will not be happpening. My elders, im not sure about yours, are not advising us regarding whom we should vote for in the presidential elections.

zahavasdad, I also can’t trace my ancestors further than my great-granparents:-) …it was second cousins and great uncles who are into yichus stuff who had the knowledge and abilities to trace our ancestors. I’m sure there are people who could trace the ancestors of your great-grandparents, it requires skill but I’m sure the knowledge is out there somewhere .

Anyway, my point is not how far back we can go but from where we shtam. If your great-granparents were frum Jews then they came from families whose ancestors were frum Jews or geirim… who also ended up marrying into frum families. Years ago you could rely on the fact that if your grandmother was Jewish she definitely came from Jewish ancestry. .. What ancestry are we creating today for our future generations? Safek Jewish ancestry, that’s what.

How about we focus all this energy and money on confused and struggling frum kids who don’t fit into the mold, on non-assimilated but not frum families and communities, on OTDs, etc. There are many ways where we need to strengthen our communities and help our own kids, I don’t see why kiruv needs to be done on safek Jews. Of course, for those who are searching and come to us for answers the door should always be open, but there’s no reason to run after people who intermarried for generations and it’s oftentimes impossible to know for certain where they shtam from. This secular generation is just the worst because the secular lifestyle today is simply crazy massive immorallity and besides for the Jewish ancestry question, we can’t take other stuff about people for granted today as well…

jdf0007, I don’t understand most of your comment, but regarding my ancestry, I was never interested in my yichus until my daughter had a project in high school and we got her family trees and stories from my husband’s and mine extended family members (cousins) who were interested in these things…it was VERY EASY to PROVE our ancestors going back a few hundred years were JEWISH. We even shtamed from famous Rabbonim and a Chassidish Rebbe from Europe (actually we both knew about our famous ancestors before but we now we saw the family tress and how exactly we shtamed from them).

Not that having non-Jewish ancestors, if it is not an halachik issue, is something to be ashamed about. Our Avos and Imoas had non-Jewish ancestry (and as a result, us as well…) as did Dovid Hamelech. My point is to prove that we could have proof of our Jewish ancestry. No one has to know their family yichus till Har Sinai but if you know where you shtam from that is what matters. My daughter and I were too lazy too bother with a very long report, honestly it doesn’t matter that much too us, but girls in her class had huge reports on their ancestry. All her classmates knew where they came from. This is the result of intermarriage between Jews.

Baalei teshuva should be able to trace their mother’s side of the family to full-fledged religious Jews a generation or two back. How far back can one go to prove their mother was a Jew? Can Spanish Catholics, who are still practicing Marrano traditions passed down for centuries, claim to be Jewish if they marry mostly with other families living in their village? There are also other halachik considerations to consider such as if a women who was married to two Jewish men who was the person who officiated the divorce from the first husband? And other considerations are important to consider due to the immorality in today’s secular society. Putting one’s head in the sand to do kiruv is not a mitzvah. Doing kiruv and messing with the fabric of tbe Jewish people should not be taken as lightly as it is.

huju, actually I personally wasn’t thinking about Jewish people in general (but not exluding either) making false accusations and I believe other posters didn’t only talk about Jews. Frum Jews are a very tiny minority within the US population and unscrupulously frum Jews are an even tinier minority.

While I’m against doing kiruv in the US because people can consider themselves Jewish but come from a few generations back of assimilated Jewish background and it can be impossible to know for sure if they are halachik Jews, there are exceptions where kiruv is needed and is happening successfully and that is in Jewish communities like the Bucharian community in the US. Jewish communities who originate from the Caucasian regions, even those who are not religious, have not assimilated but there’s danger of that happening to their children who are attending public school. Kol hakovod to those bringing these Jews back and saving their generations from being lost to our people.

Grey matter and interjection, it is a false conclusion that you have come to and are spreading about what I’ve said. I’ve said “…but I just want to point out the hypocrisy of some people trying to do kiruv in spiritual snake pits…” I specifically said “some poeple” but maybe for people who don’t want to understand what I’ve really said, I should’ve stressed with capitalizing the entire word “some” so that my words cannot be misconstrued. I never said all Lubavitchers and I’ve never said all who do kiruv place themselves in bad situations. That is a lie.

And I’ve never said ALL kiruv is bad. That is an outright lie. I definitely say that no one can know for sure if those whose ancestors have assimilated for a few generations are Jewish. Do people realize that Jews have assimilated for over two millennia, through being sold into slavery, through forced conversions, through the “Enlightenement”, etc…and never has there been a movement to “bring them back” because after two or three or more generations, there is mixture with the general population and it’s not possible to know for sure who is Jewish.

And do you really think that the intensely immoral secular world of today only affects goyim but not secular Jews or even assimilated Jews? Good for you if you don’t know what’s out there, but it doesn’t change reality. Secular Jews (including of course the hundreds of thousands who are not halachically Jews but consider themselves Jews) are mostly liberals who support and have to a large extent adopted the liberal cause and way of life.

I don’t believe they are all halachikaly Jewish. Today many people who are partly descendents of Jews, but not necessarily Jewish, think they are Jewish or are considered Jewish by secular society.

mdd1, why do people go through trials and suffering in this life too? Maybe Hashem should’ve made a pain-free existence for all living creatures? We can grow from suffering and become better people, that’s why. Having a pain-free existence means would mean that we would stay stagnent and never grow spiritually. Same in the spiritual dimension, the neshoma goes through Gehenim to become a stronger and better spiritual being to be able to enter Gan Eden.

… Actually that’s my guess about Gehenim. It is probably only part of the real reason ( reality can have many aspects or truths to it, not only one) or not the real reason at all. Only Hashem has all the answers to the mysteries of creations.

Grey matter, I respect your opinion but I’m not backing away from mine since I don’t agree that my opinion is based on whimsical reasoning. And for the record, as I previously said, I am not discouraging kiruv in 2019, I am against trying to do kiruv IN THE US in 2019.

Syag, um ok…my goodness…I never said that you mentioned Joseph… I said that I still feel bad for zetzting Joseph and I DONT WANT TO GO THERE AGAIN- in other words, I don’t want to get into an argument and say things I’ll regret… I suggest that you simply process what is written and not what you think was implied.

laskern, if that is what the bracha means, please explain why women have no obligation to marry. If women’s existence is to serve their husbands it would be a woman’s obligation to marry, not her choice. Also please explain why unmarried women, widowed, divorced and spinsters say this bracha as well.

Syag, I just don’t agree with you regarding this law so you dissect everything I say to the point of absurdity. And then you say I don’t follow what you are saying. Seems to me that you are not following what I’m saying…

Anyway…will try to keep this argument civil, I still feel bad for zetsing Joseph so much this past Tisha b’Av, I’m not trying to go there again… Have a good Shabbos ( if this is posted before Shabbos).