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Novelty, good point. That is true, bunim can mean any gender. Google translate translates בנים from Ivrit (which I’m sure is used the same way in L”H) to “child, girl, daughter, …etc.in addition to “boys”.
Avira, of course there’s always improvements that are needed in a “system” in this case moisdois, communities, etc.however, overall, certainly in the communities that I know about, there are hundreds of thousands of wonderful, ehrlicha people who come out from this “system”.
That people were turned “off” is not an excuse. Do you know how many murderers and people who turn to crime use the excuse that they were bullied? It’s not an excuse to go and murder others. The fact of life is that no person is perfect and no system is perfect and no one cannot turn “off” because of it.
I am totally against the over-stuffing of knowledge in frum schools without REALLY TEACHING what our purpose and goals in life should be according to the Torah. Kids should be taught how we need a kesher with Hashem, not have a hollow, materialistic based Jewish life.
At the age of 12 and 13 Jews are responsible for their actions. It is from those ages where people start becoming who they are as adults.
I’m not going to judge anyone for their actions, I have to judge my own. However, people’s lifestyles and actions cause people to form opinions of them. Imagine a frum person who is CONSTANTLY, everyday, rude to others, particularly non-Jews or not religious Jews ( as some are not so bothered when such behavior is exhibited towards other frum Jews but when it’s towards non-Jewish or non-religious people it’s unforgivable). Imagine if this person is loud, rude, throws wrappers on the ground after eating in the street, etc.What kind of opinion would you have of such a person? I’m sure you would hold highly of such a person, no? Well, I wouldn’t and I bet all the people here defending OTDs and screaming that you have to love them would also not hold too highly of a person who is always rude and uncouth. They may write that you have to be Dan l’kaf zchus it’s not so but in real life, would they see a person throwing garbage on the ground or act in a demeaning way toward others would definitely be angry about such behavior. But yet when it comes to people rebelling against Hashem’s Torah and rejecting it, all of a sudden so many are understanding and accepting and loving and excuse such behavior when Yidden in previous doiros sanctified their lives for Hashem and His Torah!
Avirah, Atzvus is an avaeirah btw because people can help themselves get out of it ( I’m dodging the bullets here) Now of course I can’t evaluate people’s spiritual medreigas, ( not am I interested in doing so) but generally, if people would appreciate for the gift of life and all the gifts Hashem gave them there would be no depression. It is in this day and age where everyone constantly bemoans there childhood, there spouse, etc. And yes, I do understand commonsaychel’s pov because there are people that literally ruin their own lives through their own actions while giving a gazillion excuses of why they are lazy. Those of us who pushed past the things that held us back understand that with excuses you get nowhere. Of course, a person needs siyatah dishmaya to succeed no matter what effort they put into something, but oftentimes I see incredibly lazy people blaming the predictable results of their own inaction.
However, when talking about looking down on people I wasn’t talking about frum, depressed people or lazy people, I was talking about OTDs and those who life is one big party with a small dose of Yiddishkeit on the side. Regardless of depression, childhood, etc., etc. there’s no valid reason one can have to reject God’s eternal words that He commanded us to keep. Whatever matzav a Jew is in, he still is obligated to and he still has the capabilities to follow (at least basic) halachas.
Ash, I’m happy to hear that you’re doing good now but my point is that there’s no reason to go through all this suffering when schools can make learning more interesting and engaging with visual tools and creative classes and more recess. Today we have tons of after-school programs that should be integrated within the regular school curriculums. Of course, that won’t solve all problems but it could solve many problems.
As for sitting through siddurim, I’m not a man and never went to yeshiva, but I have heard many boys being successful in yeshivas where instead of the magid shuir teaching, the boys are actively engaged and involved in the shuir.
And the same is with jobs, there are many suitable jobs that ADHD labeled people can be successfully work in.
So I’m coming from a different angle. Instead of seeing it as a disorder, I see it as a different way of thinking, and yes it can be very challenging oftentimes, but if we work with it instead of against it, if we understand HOW we can work with it, ADHD labeled people would be more productive with less challenges in everyday life.
It is my opinion that modern day life is much harder for people labeled ADHD. Technology oftentimes gets ADHD people stuck in addictive behavior, sitting all day in classes where years ago no one sat for hours in classrooms learning about subjects they were not interested in, etc. Today, the way people are considered productive in our frum society, can oftentimes be very challenging for ADHD labeled people.
Now, you are saying that I’m out of date regarding what the term ADHD means and then you go ahead and say that the name is misleading… So how can you so I’m out of date if the term ADHD is out of date? And having a subtype of innatentive ADHD does not make the term a correct one.
Syag, false. Excuses, excuses, excuses. Everyone went through the same system. Some people suffer more than others in life but those are not necessarily the ones who throw away Yiddishkeit. Today’s stupid excuse is trauma when most don’t have trauma it’s fake news.
Now am I saying the system is perfect? Absolutely not. I myself was discriminated against due to my family situation, which also wasn’t a bowl of cherries, mildly put.
How in the world does anyone think they have an excuse to throw away the Torah and mitzvos because life isn’t exactly the way they want it to be?! We are here to grow from our challenges, no one can use their God-given challenges to throw away Torah and mitzvos.
The woke secular society has influenced frum Jews as well. As someone who went through many, many challenges in life, I look down at people who throw away the Torah and oftentimes their entire lives, simply because they have challenges which EVERYONE does. The vast, vast majority of OTDs were absolutely not abused, it’s fake news.
Has everyone forgotten about bechira?! That term has been thrown into the trash bin. Now it’s about “trauma”…whether someone has trauma, real or imagined, there’s no excuse to drop Shabbos and eat chazer.
Can people love OTDs and people engaged in non-stop frivolous behavior? Absolutely, that is your ideoligy. However, as everything in life, this has repercussions with the communities being the most accepting of sinful people having the most of them.
Historically Rabbonim and frum Jews did not accept excuses from individuals who threw away Yiddishkeit, whether they were maskilim or converted to Christianity ( with the exception of forced conversions) and they were dealt harshly with. People say today is different and we must accept them the way they are then that’s their opinion. Hashem commanded us, without exception and without excuses, to fulfill His commandments, and we will be punished ( which we see this happening more and more frequently H”y) if we disobey and therefore if those who know better engage in abominable behavior and are mechalelei Shabbos, and eat treifus are, at the minium, looked down upon by people who do not take trampling of His mitzvos and His Torah lightly.
Being dan l’kaf zchus only applies to frum people, not have turned away from Yiddishkeit.
Yeserbius, you can’t be a conservative and support affirmative action.
Avirah, if I can jump in, life is not black and white. Please stop about this judgement business. Stop being woke. If someone who is frum lives in their parents basement and plays video games all day then there’s something mentally off with them. No normal frum person sits in their parents basement all day playing video games. If they are otherwise functioning and play video games all day then there’s nothing wrong with looking down on them.
This has nothing to do with an OTD doctor (who is a rare breed in any case as most OTDs do not become professionals) who is judged in a completely different way.
This wokeness that has permeated the frum world from the outside world is clouding people’s judgment on what dan l’kaf zchus means. Dan l’kaf zchus applies to frum people only.
Avirah, if I can jump in, life is not black and white. Please stop about this judgement business. Stop being woke. If someone who is frum lives in their parents basement and plays video games all day then there’s something mentally off with them. No normal frum person sits in their parents basement all day playing video games. If they are otherwise functioning and play video games all day then there’s nothing wrong with looking down on them.
This has nothing to do with an OTD doctor (who is a rare breed in any case as most OTDs do not become professionals) who is judged in a completely different way.
This wokeness that has permeated the frum world from the outside world is clouding people’s judgment on what dan l’kaf zchus means. Dan l’kaf zchus applies to frum people only.
Nonimpedit, really, Jews are not allowed to have negative opinions about polititians and on affirmative actions?
There are so many woke participats in the CR.
commonsaychel, you probably would’ve been recieved with greater warmth from many here and in the frum communities had you chosen to go down the BUM route. Imagine that people give me mussar for saying that I don’t look down at people choosing to be oived Hashem in a different way than there parents are but I at the same time berate me for have for looking down at those throwing away their Yiddishkeit. It’s unbelievable.
Historically, those who have sinned openly were not accepted within klal Yisroel, unlike today where we have to accept these people and their choices. Now, it is certainly not wrong to believe in these people to do teshuva, but that doesn’t mean that
The problem is that he had no booster shot. I’m sure that would’ve helped…
farbycoffe, yes, the classroom is very hard for ADHD labeled kids, particularly if the subject matter does not interest them. But you’ll get through, everyone makes it through in the end. It is important to find productive things that you enjoy doing,especially when you are looking for a job. If you enjoy what you do you won’t have a hard time focusing. Many ADHD labeled individuals enjoy technical jobs like computer programing.
Bennythekvetch, of course, if Yiddishkeit to you is about ” practices and beliefs”, not about the Truth, not about the eternal words of Hashem, not about what Jews over the centuries gave up their lives for, not about the fact that Hashem has COMMANDED us to keep His mitzvos, then yes, I can see why you wouldn’t look down at Jews who know Hashem’s laws and throw them away. It is not a Torah obligation in any way to love people who threw away the Torah and deliberately engage in sin.
Your comment actually does not make sense. If it is about “beliefs” then accordingly it is my belief that I can ” look down on people who know the halachas yet still violate the Torah”. This is my belief, how exactly can you decide for me what my beliefs, religious or personal, should be? Especially if you accept that they are following their beliefs then what gives you the right to bash mine? If they can have their beliefs accepted what makes you entitled to have my beliefs denigrated?
Farby, you are mixing up the yoitzeras. I never said that I hate these Jews, I said I look down on them. In this mixed up world everyone is equal, but the Torah has very harsh words for these people. It is absolutely not violating the halacha to look down on Yidden who intentionally violate halacha.
No one in this world has not sinned, however this is the bilbul hamoichos of the dor: the ehrlicha person who tries to do Hashem’s will is considered equal to those who eat treifus, violate the Shabbos, etc. That’s why we have scores of frum people going otd, I mean why not? They are loved and accepted in many communities and by many people so why not?
I’m not saying to hate or reject them, but I am saying that there’s nothing wrong with looking down on those who reject the Torah and do not follow it’s laws.
I don’t trust the FDA anymorr. They only care the big bucks or money-making positions they’ll get in these pharmaceutical companies eventually. They do not care whether a medicine is effective or not or dangerous or not.
farbycoffe, of course ADHD labeled kids are not all more talented or less talented than non ADHD labeled children . They just think differently and that can make it hard for them to learn in today’s frum classroom setting. On the other hand, they can be extremely intelligent and creative because of their different thinking patterns in ways that non-ADHD labeled children can’t be.
AviraDeArah, I 100% look down on any Yid who was frum and now violates Shabbos or does similar severe sins. It may be repugnant to you, but I’m not trying to gefel you so I don’t care what you think.
AAQ, that is a good observation
AAQ, I agree that schoolwork should be interesting. I think school should be stimulating and not constant memorization or taking notes.
Syag, I can’t help you on your presumption that I haven’t researched the topic. I certainly researched a lot about this topic, I watched videos and read articles. However, I’m not falling for modern mentality that makes everyone a victim in their own way. Whoever is labeled “ADHD” has gifts that could be used in a positive or negative way and thats the way I see it.
You can label my opinions “rants” if that makes you feel better.
What is less? That’s a huge range. If people are eved Hashem, even if they don’t practice the same type of frumkeit as their parents, I don’t look down on them. But OTD or immature, barely holding onto Yiddishkeit, life is one long party types, i certainly look down on these people.
Syag, first of all, I totally read everything you wrote. It doesn’t mean that I agree with you.
I didn’t mean what I said about labels in a sarcastic way. You said that if it will help other people understand you better then you don’t mind using them. That to me means that you have a positive opinion regarding labels since for you that helps to identify people. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Now the fact is that people labeled ADHD CAN concentrate amazingly well when it interests them. So how exactly can they be labeled ADHD?
onto them, I meant to say
Ujm, I’m not sure about Asperger’s, but certainly autism is often mischarachterized with absolutely normal people being stamped with the “autism” label for no reason.
There are people who have REAL mental and emotional issues. Years ago the distinctions between mentally ill people and normal people, who all have struggles, where very clear. Now with so many therapists, psychologists, pshycotherapists and “mental health” services, everyone needs a label or diagnose stamped into them.
ujm, he did not bring any source that says that shaving was a tekanah from the Vaad HaArbeh Arotzos nor did he bring any sources specifically regarding shaving only about concerns of chatzitzah.
AAQ, I like the comparison of ADHD labeled characteristics to a bug or feature in software😀 . It’s so true, but this could be about any characteristic of human behavior. And that is my point.
I disagree with you that memorization was utilized 99% of the time. Creativity is not only about art but also about creating utensils and cookware, creating furniture and textile, etc since the beginning of time. Creativity is also scientific with inventions, breakthroughs and discoveries that have made a huge impacts on the world.
Great people have come not from sitting in class and memorizing for hours, which is what education means today, but from thinking and analyzing and experimenting.
Syag, ok fine, if it’s easier to label people then go ahead and label them. However, that does not make ADHD a true thing. People whom you would label ADHD because they can’t sit too long in class or in an office setting or concentrate on projects or on many subjects, can sit in one place for hours on projects that interests them, even staying up entire nights if it is needed to finish a project. “Adhd” people can concentrate on technical and intricate subjects if they have an in it! So how is ATTENTION DEFICIT HYPERACTIVITY DISORDER an appropriate term to use for these people?
Every person has characteristics which if you would force them into a certain situation can exhibit negative tendencies if it goes agianst their nature. Put non-adhd people in a world where adhd labeled people thrive and they may have major difficulties!
ADHA label people CAN concentrate and don’t have a disorder! Generally, the people with this label can be very lazy when doing essential things important for an orderly and healthy life and not do them at all or at a slower pace because they are not interested in doing it. But that is a negative side of their characteristics but every single characteristic of a people has negative and positive sides to it and that is precisely how we grow, by overcoming the negative sides our personalities have and utilizing the positive power that our characteristics have.
I would lael adhd people as intelligently attention hyperfocused.
Syag, if you like labels I can find five labels to put on you. This theorist, psychologist, physiotherapist, saturated society is being manipulated to think that people have major issues that only they can help.
Now look at the goyishe world and see what they’ve done to people. We still have the Torah framework, but it’s edging more and more toward the precipice of destruction in our communities, although some are way worse than others in this regard.
Every human being on earth struggles in different ways in how they respond to the world around them or/and to their own inner world. We are here to grow by becoming stronger and better people, by connecting to Hashem. Labels thrown at people by all these “experts” are useless.
barlshwartz1, thank you for your wonderful mussar shmuez… This is a discussion where we tried getting to the root of this minhug with everyone presenting what they know and you come along with this superior attitude…I’m not impressed at all. Perhaps you are right, but likely not. You do not bring any sources to your claim and so they can be as true as anyone else’s.
I have heard from Satmer women who shave and they tell me it’s based on kabbalah that a married women’s hair is klippas and that’s why it needs to be shaved and also because it’s a big avaeirah for “bei hur” (hair that sticks out from the covering) to be seen. That’s what they are they are taught. Whether that is the original reason or not, I don’t know
Now, not only did many of the countries you claimed the women shaved their hair, not shave their hair, but they also didn’t wear wigs or headcoverings either in many of these countries, even women whose husbands were talmidei chachumim. I highly doubt they would go from shaving to not wearing any headcoverings.
Not only that, but Jewish who came from these countries to Israel in the in the late 19th and early 20th century do not shave either. Many Israeli Chassidishe women don’t shave at all.
There’s no such thing as “ADHD”. The characteristics of people labeled “ADHD” are simply characteristics of a creative and often very intelligent mind which doesn’t thrive in rigid environments that many of the frum schools have today. Kids are stuffed into classrooms for hours with barely any time to socialize, to stretch their muscles by playing sports and games, they barely have recess. And the way things are taught by relying totally on children’s memorization instead of visual tools and exploration of the topics is a recipe for disaster for a large percentage of our children.
Yserbius, shorter jackets are more tzniusdig than long jackets?
Lostspark, I always assumed that to be the original reason the custom was adopted.reason.
But I could be wrong though and the original reason may be the ones I heard which that shaving is done because the hair is klippas according to sources in the Zohar and because hair could stick out of the hair covering.
I’m so inspired by women learning gemorah. When females learn gemorah, most of the time it’s mamesh, mamesh learning only l’Shem Shomayim, it’s mamesh learning only lishmu, and it’s got absolutely nothing to do with modern ideology of women doing the same things as men.
I’m going to start learning gemorah because I want to shteig in my levels of feminist aspirations, oops sorry, I meant that I want to shteig in my ruchnius, and learning gemorah is the ideal and proper way for women to appropriately shteig in all levels of ruchnius that a Jewish woman should aspire to in tznius, yira Shomayim, chesed, etc.
I think it started in Hungary. Hungarian women all shaved their heads, whether they were Chassidish or not.
AAQ, to think we are wiser than the gedoilim of 200 years ago is absolutely a folly. We are less wise, that’s for sure. Years ago almost no Jews converted except for a few individuals unless it was forced conversions, even then, masses of Jews died Al Kiddush Hashem. Today we unfortunately have individual Jews, mostly non-educated, who convert to Christianity. There Jewish women marrying Muslims and converting to Islam. And unfortunately we have boys and girls, too many too count, that go OTD. And we have adults who go OTD as well.
We are a shvache dor, we are certainly not better than our ancestors.
Not related to the thread, but I always see my grammar and spelling mistakes after I post my comments… Sorry, there’s no option edit the mistakes. I hope my comments are understandable.
Yes, a big thanks to all the moderators!
The moderators must have a lot of confidence though. I am always second guessing myself if I ruffled anyone’s feathers whether it was a justified response.
I recently anaylized two posters comments on one thread and came to the conclusion that they are trolls. However I can only say that with 80% certainty and have been bashing myself for saying anything because if they really meant what they said then I hope I didnt hurt innocent people. I’m asking me mechila if these two posters on the chinuch thread weren’t trolls.
HaravPhil, how could I have possible stolen your name when I’ve had this using this name for 10+ years? 🙂 I cannot even believe I created an account so long ago…but I just checked and that’s actually the case.
AAQ, I’ve read a few articles that say that these vaccines does not price b&t cells. I can look up sources later.
I’m certainly not saying advocating for people to willfully get covid. I’m saying billions of people got covid despite wearing masks, despite lockdowns and despite social distancing. Unless you and your family plan to live in protected bubbles your entire lives, eventually you will most likely at some point become infected with covid, unless you will be one of few exceptions who won’t get it, but the majority of will get sick with covid as they do with a virus that travels quickly and easily as covid does. And of course, thousands of people got covid even after taking the covid shot and that number will rise the further away we get from the initial doses. Which leads us to a 27th+ booster shot which will still not prevent people from getting covid.
AAQ, I’m not sure about traditional vaccines, but cell based vaccines (which all covid vaccines currently are) do not produce b and t memory cells while natural immunity to covid does.
Your family being sick for months is exactly why lockdowns and social distancing is not a solution to preventing the spread of viruses. Immune systems grow weaker with masks, social distancing, and lockdowns. People should build up their immune systems naturally, not weaken their immune system by staying away from society or being injected with experimental vaccines. I do understand why older people would want to take the covid vaccine (personally I would not choose to do so would I be over 65 years of age), but I’m totally against mandatory vaccination.
Gadolhadorah, halacha is supreme to secular law. But, as you said, just because someone can do something according to halacha doesn’t mean they should take advantage of that.
Imagine if I as a mother would “take advantage” of the laws of kibud eim and force one of my children to cook, clean the entire house and wash the laundry every day because my daughter would be obligated to do so according to halacha. That is abuse plain and simple.
Now I forgot to add in my previous comment to ujm, that although individuals have “rights” according to halacha, we also have halachic “obligations”, so for example, we cannot cause pain for others. So when people disregard an halachik obligation to take advantage of an halachik right, they will go to gehinom for trampling on halacha, especially if it was bein adom lachveroy.
I know people who have had natural immunity and got covid again but with milder symptoms. This has nothing to do with the vax. As the varients mutate more and more, they are less and less potent.
Ujm, will you also sell your underage daughter to whomever you want because you could do so according to halacha?
I really pity the women in your family. Unless you are a troll… Can you tell me of what purpose does it do to keep a woman chained who doesn’t want to be married to the likes of you?
I’m telling you that many people have a straight path to gehinom paved with excuses of “but it was allowed according to halacha”! Whether such an excuse is used for untzniusdige dress when some women always find excuses like “it doesnt say anywhere in halacha that you can’t wear a long wig till the waist”, to abusers who abuse with an excuse that “halacha allows it”…there’s a path straight to gehinom, guaranteed!
Was the 2020 election stolen. No, it wasn’t stolen according to FakeFactCheckers.com.
Always ask, well, vaxxed people are dying as well, unfortunately, either from “breakthrough cases” or from side effects. And we are not even talking about long-term effects that were not studied or are in the process of being studied ( mostly by the pharmaceutical companies…which guarantees no honest reporting of results)
According to smartbackgrounchecks.com, the number 718-854-xxxx”just myself” listed for the supposed “quisquam kiosk store” is a number listed for an individual named Abina Cruz 88 years old…doesn’t sound like quisquam computer kiosk store’s number to me…
For the address of one supposed quisquam store on 5101 16th Ave there’s a cellular phone store named Big Man Cellular. Looking through the store’s window on my large computer screen, it appears to be a business not remotely related to a computer kiosk… Mamesh a few doors down the at supposed second quisquam location of 5100 16th is a residential building…
And last but not least, located at the third “quisquam” location at 1282 52nd st is…NOTHING! There’s no such address! Bobov Cheder is at the corner of 13ave so it’s the last building on 12th st and the address is 1270 52nd street…
This kind of trolling where you present yourself as someone you are not and cause people to give you of their time to answer you is not only trolling, it is geneivos daas.
Kudos to mod-29 for spotting these trolls (assuming they are two people) right away.
It really upsets me when people are so immature.
But thanks trolls for the challenge! I enjoyed sleuthing a bit 😃
Always ask, according to today’s definition of off the charts communist, immoral behaimo liberals, Adams APPEARS to be somewhat of a centrist…but certainly he cannot save NYC…
Always ask, these things are gibberish, there’s nothing of substance here. Plus, 99% of his policies are totally liberal, including most of what you wrote. You looked for the needle in the haystack and found 1-2 non-liberal ones.
Providing tax credits for businesses relocating to “certain areas”? I am certain which areas they are…is another liberal “jewel” serving nothing and no one.
How will “empowering immigrants with voting rights” save NYC?
Invest in “green infastructure”?! Didn’t we go through with that in the Obama era where he gave billions for solar companies which was money poured down the drain?
Add housing “for everyone” in wealthy neighborhoods?! Right, that will surely make the last few rich tax payers stay in NYC. Make sure the bums, the drug addicts, the homeless, the drifters and criminals are transferred to wealthy together with the “low to no income” individuals… This is exactly what we need to turn NYC around…
A month ago the doctors in Israel said 99% of hospitalized are non-vaxxers. Now they are saying 65% hospitalized are unvaxxed…let’s see the numbers in a year.
Ujm, your comment that it isn’t obligatory to give a get is absolutely disgusting. If a woman wants a get she has to get a get unless she is making unreasonable demands or withholding visitation rights from the husband. I am not saying that every single divorce was done out of necessity, but I believe the vast majority was necessary.
You know what, a lot of things are not obligatory according to halacha, that does not mean we don’t do it. Withholding a get for no valid reason gets a man on the path straight to gehinom.