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What does “valued in productive within our communities” mean?
Why should “most women feel less than (what?) in our communities”?
Square root, exactly that is the issue. IF there are non-messichisten in Chabad, we never here of them. Even worse, there are a lot of vocal “rabbis” in Chabad spouting kefira saying that humans don’t have to fear accounting for our sins- that there’s no gehinom, that Hashem created us to “fullfill His needs”, that the LR runs the world, that you can pray directly to the LR, etc. etc.
It’s really unfortunate that frum people can hold the Torah in such little regard as to think our great Sages contradicted any posuk in the Torah.
Even if one was taught that Yaacov’s guf is alive one cannot say that Rashi is contradicting a posuk in the Torah (not that im agreeing that Rashi is saying that Yaacov’s guf is physically alive).
Unbelievable, unbelievable. I can never understand how people can lie. Some people can lie even when the reality is black on white, the written proof is readily available. Someone who can say, at this point where I’ve reiterated my opinion NUMEROUS times, that I said that Rashi cant be saying that Yaacov Avinu is alive, is extremely dishonest.
Arso disgustingly wrote, “You know what, philosopher, don’t respond to me anymore. I’m sick of your changing your views when you are stuck in a corner, and I reiterate, it’s not your fault that you are a woman, but you just don’t understand the derech halimud that men are taught.”
I’m not stuck in a corner at all. Arso is stuck in the corner and projecting it on me. My numerous posts on this thread and on the other thread are PROOF that i said the ENTIRE TIME, from my first post, that Rashi saying that Yaacov is alive means in a spiritual manner, he is not saying that his guf is alive. I have also said many times as well, that perhaps Rashi means that Yaacov’s nefesh is still attached on some level to his guf, but again, that doesn’t mean that Rashi is saying that Yaacov’s guf is physically alive. But never ever, have i said that “Rashi can’t be saying that Yaacov is alive”.
Saying that “it’s not your fault that you are a woman, but you just don’t understand the derech halimud that men are taught” does not change the fact that you are lying. And I don’t know what derech halimud he was taught but one cannot interpret a meforesh based on 2-3 words “that prove one’s point” while ignoring what the mefoiresh says in its entirety.
Arso wrote, “Btw, just for the record. I may have made mistakes – although in this case I did not as you definitely changed your view – but I haven’t lied.”
You definitely did lie.Arso, i told myself that i will not respond to you anymore but i simply cannot not respond to your lies. Once again you lie. I said over and over and over again that Rashi saying Yaacov is alive does not mean that his guf is alive. I NEVER EVER said that Rashi “can’t be saying that Yaacov Avinu was alive”.
You are a shameless liar and it’s disgusting.
In every single post I spoke about this I said that Rashi is not saying that Yaacov’s guf is alive physically rather he is saying he is alive in a spiritual sense. I said that in EVERY SINGLE of my posts. Now you shamelessly lie and say that i said that Rashi said that Yaacov is not alive?!
I have responded about the Rif and few posts earlier. Obviously I don’t agree with your conclusion that the Rif on EY means that Yaacov Avinu was buried alive and i wrote why.
I have NOT changed anything I said. I repeated the same thing from the first post I posted on this topic. Then you tell me I don’t argue fairly?!
Sorry for the trauma you will now have to live with for the next four years living under an imaginary dictator.
Arso wrote : “NP (wrote): I think her primary issue is that one cannot use that Ramban to justify the position that Rashi holds that Yaacov is alive in the full physical sense.”
I don’t know why you are putting words in her mouth that she clearly is NOT saying. She refuses to accept that according to the Ramban the passuk saying the Shevatim saw that Yaakov had died does not contradict Rashi’s statement that Yaakov did not die, as she keeps quoting that passuk as “proof” that Rashi CANNOT mean that Yaakov did not die.
How can you defend her citing that passuk as proof when the Ramban says it is not a proof?”
I am saying exactly what Non-Political wrote I am saying. In fact, that exactly sums up what I’m saying over and over again. And I’m saying again, Arso is arguing simply for the sake of arguing!
I am indeed saying that the Ramban is NOT saying that the passuk saying the Shevatim saw that Yaakov had died contradicts Rashi’s statement that Yaackov had not died. He is not saying it contradicts the pesuk(im), Arso is saying that. Rashi inot saying that Yaacov’s guf did not die, he is only saying that Yaacov did not die. He is not explaining, like the Gemorah and other meforshim, including the Ramban ,what Yaacov lo mes means. The Gemorah and meforshim explain “Yaacov lo mes” in a spiritual sense, even the Ramban who says the brothers werent aware that hes alive explains “Yaacov lo mes” in a spiritual sense. I do NOT have to “accept” others INTERPRETATION that what Ramban says to mean that Rashi is specifically talking about his physical guf. I dont have to “accept” their INTERPRETATION that Rashi means his guf is alive because neither the Ramban is saying it on the Rashi, nor Rashi himself, is saying his guf is alive. None of the meforshim say his guf is alive. The Ramban is simply saying that the brothers didn’t realize that Yaacov’s nefesh was still attached to his guf after the guf’s physical death.
Non Political, those pesukim are proof that Yaacov Avinu died and the the Ramban and Rashi are not disputing the pesukim.The shevatim are much greater and smarter and holier than us and knew much more than we can comprehend. Certainly they did not make a mistake when they saw that their father died. They did not bury him alive. He died a physical death.
The Ramban’s understanding according to Rashi is that the brothers perhaps didn’t know that his nefesh was still attached on some level to his guf. The fact is that Rashi is not saying his guf itself is alive. As i said many times, alive forever can mean many things, including that Yaacov’s nefesh is still attached to his guf even if his guf is not physically alive. Many meforshim and the gemorah, say different thing on Yaacov lo mes, none, including Rashi, say that Yaacov’s guf itself is still physically alive.
yeshivaguy, no, I’m talking about real violence, not action. I enjoy reading action novels. The violence is very descriptive in these novels.
Always ask, the moral of the story is that Yiddishkeit doesn’t change for anyone and gehenim is a fact for those who sin and don’t do teshuva, regardless if Chabad denies this basic tenet of Yiddishkeit.
Neville, my, my, what minefields my posts are… how terrible…
Unfortunately not everyone sees “all the terrible things” I supposedly said.
Yeshivaguy, the violence, and perhaps even the ” romance”, in Jewish novels today is far, far, far worse than in Sherlock Holmes books. My daughter borrowed a book from her classmate who comes from a very frum family. Just looking at the title made me cringe. And although I have no patience for these plots, that that make no sense, I had to proofread the book. I couldn’t finish reading it. The plot was basically about a Mossad agent going on a mission and keeps on getting caught and escaping his enemies. And it’s a series where the books all have the same plot basically ( i started reading the sequence as well and it’s the same thing over and over again) throughout the entire protagonist’s journey (s), the violence is non-stop, vivid descriptions of torture, violence, murder, it’s absolutely horrific. I certainly did not let my daughter read those books.
This series, and similar violent books, are being sold in heimishe store and are on bookshelfs in heimishe libraries. Many of these books written by frum authors in the last two decades also have very bad hashkafas and model bad middos. Disregard of kibbud av v’eim, kids having doubts about yiddishket, bullying, etc. In the end, often the characters would redeem themselves and straighten out in the end, but what about kids minds being affected by the character’s doubts and conflicts and actions that are against the Torah?
Sherlock Holmes, imo, is much better than this frum garbage. But don’t take my word on it, I read those books years ago when i was a teenager and don’t remember all the details. Perhaps as a parent I’d see those books differently regarding the romance you say is in the books, but as far as violence, it is very clean accordingly to many books written by frum authors and sold in sefarim stores.
Qwerty, people get intimidated when someone sounds like he knows what he’s saying despite the person who appears knowledgeable is clearly contradicting the Torah, our chachamim and mesorah and despite their ideology being incredibly dumb (… the rebbe running the world and being alive after he died, etc…) . But when lies are repeated as facts over and over again and they “use sources” to make it seem as if meforshim support their kefira, after a while it doesn’t sound like nonsense anymore.
And that is the danger of Chabadianity, their seemingly innocent movement that is accepted by Chareidim despite their ideology being total a”z.
Yes, I definitely believe that if a guf is buried alive 3,000+ years it would be terrible suffering to the individual, %100.
No one contradicts the Word of Hashem, certainly not our great Sages. If someone thinks the meforshim are contradicting pesukim in the Torah they are not fully understandingthe meforshim . It says in the Torah that Yaacov himself said he is about to die. אָבִ֞י הִשְׁבִּיעַ֣נִי לֵאמֹ֗ר הִנֵּ֣ה אָנֹכִי֮ מֵת֒ בְּקִבְרִ֗י אֲשֶׁ֨ר כָּרִ֤יתִי לִי֙ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ כְּנַ֔עַן שָׁ֖מָּה תִּקְבְּרֵ֑נִי וְעַתָּ֗ה אֶֽעֱלֶה־נָּ֛א וְאֶקְבְּרָ֥ה אֶת־אָבִ֖י וְאָשֽׁוּבָה׃ and his sons saw that their father died. וַיִּרְא֤וּ אֲחֵֽי־יוֹסֵף֙ כִּי־מֵ֣ת אֲבִיהֶ֔ם וַיֹּ֣אמְר֔וּ ל֥וּ יִשְׂטְמֵ֖נוּ יוֹסֵ֑ף וְהָשֵׁ֤ב יָשִׁיב֙ לָ֔נוּ אֵ֚ת כׇּל־הָ֣רָעָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר גָּמַ֖לְנוּ אֹתֽוֹ׃
The Ramban himself is not saying that Yaacov is alive forever, he himself says alive spiritually. But on the words of Rashi he is saying that “to them (the shevatim) he was dead or perhaps they did not know all of this”. How can the shevatim think that their father who is alive is really dead? How could the great shevatim who knew much more than us, who understood secrets of the creation, not know that their father died? And furthermore, back to my original question, how can Rashi contradict pesukim in the Torah? The shevatim knew very well that their father who actually died, did die. They did not bury their father if he was breathing, period. If we mere humans know when a person is dead, certainly the shevatim who are such great human beings whom we can’t comprehend their greatness, certainly they knew if their father died. Yaacov Avinu did die but on a certain level his nefesh is attached to his body and therefore Rashi is saying that Yaacov lo mes and he is not contradicting the Torah. So Yaacov’s body died, but the shevatim may have not know or realized that Yaacovs nefesh is still attached on some level to his body. Yaacov’s guf died but since his nefesh is still attached on some level, he is alive forever.The Rif’s commentary can be understood that 1. at the time of his expiration (which is when he gathered his feet) the state of his body could’ve been different than at the time of burial (it took some time from when he expired until they came to the Maares Hamachpeilah) and so his actual death couldve been right before burial. I actually remember someone bringing a meforesh on the other thread of Yaacov’s death actually happening when he was bought to the mearus hamachpeilah but i cant remember which mefoiresh that was 2. the Rif says that “the forces of his movement will be stopped”. Internally, the body itself is in constant movement even if the limbs are not moving, if movement in the body stops, life stops. In addition, the Rif saying he “will mourn like a man who faints and is thrown like a stone that has no return” to me the words “like a stone who has no return” indicates someone who dies, i do not see how it could be interpreted as a body being alive forever.
Non Political, indeed I said a few times on the other thread that one explanation of Yaacov Avinu’s being alive forever can mean that his nefesh is bound to his guf on some level. That does not mean that his guf it’s actually alive i.e. breathing, and doing other bodily functions.
Non Political, I agree with you that Hashem can prevent tzadikim from making mistakes, but He doesn’t do that because He made us human and it is human to err. I dont think any of the great tzaddikim did not make any mistakes in their entire lifetime. If Moshe Rabbeinu and Avraham Avinu made mistakes, why wouldn’t the LR? He is not greater than them.
I forgot to add to my post of the excerpt from the writings of the Piaseczno Rebbe Hy”d that it is from his sefer Bnei Machshava Tova
Non-political, you wrote ” If one believed that (a) due to a persons inherent perfection he will not make a mistake then you are right. However, If based on a misguided understanding of emunas chachamim, one believed that (b) Hashem is committed to guiding leaders such that they won’t make a mistake this would not be a”z.”
That is a fair point.
Non Political, thanks for defending me.
After the comments that make no sense from Arso and the snarky comments that have no substance from Neville, im realizing their arguments are simply for the sake of arguing and nothing more.
I do think we see from the Torah that Hashem is incorporeal. To begin with, Hashem’s existence was before He created matter, which obviously the physical body is. Therefore, when Arso comments that Hashem could’ve have a guf before the creation of the universe that is such a ridiculous comment because how could God have a guf of matter before matter was even created?!
Hashem is in the upper and lower worlds as it says in the Torah, a creature with a guf cannot be in the upper and lower worlds simultaneously. When Arso asks why that can’t be im thinking he’s a troll.
There are many pesukim in the Torah where we see that Hashem is incorporeal. The ways of Hashem, as described in the Torah, teach us that Hashem is incorporeal. Of course, there are some pesukim that talk about God as if He has physical bodily traits, but as I said numerous times that the Torah must be understood in its entirely to understand what the Torah is teaching us. Singular verses cannot be understood out of context. (And often we need meforshim to further explain what the Torah is telling us.)
Rabbi Klonimus Kalmish Shapira – Piasetzna
וּמִי יוֹדֵעַ אִם לֹא הָיְתָה זֹאת גַּם יְסוֹד וְסִבַּת חֵטְא הָעֶרֶב רַב, שֶׁאָמְרוּ עָשָׂה לָנוּ אֱלֹהִים שֶׁיֵּלְכוּ לְפָנֵינוּ, וְשֶׁנִּרְאֵהוּ, רַק הֵם הִרְחִיקוּ לָלֶכֶת וּלְבַקֵּשׁ לֹא צִיּוּר מַחֲשָׁבָה בִּלְבַד רַק גַּם דְּמוּת בְּפוֹעֵל, וְעוֹד הִתְטַפְּשׁוּ לִרְצוֹת דְּמוּת אֱלֹהֵי מִצְרַיִם רַחֲמָנָא לִיצְּלָן.” Perhaps this was underlying motive behind the sin of the mixed multitude, who said, “Make us a god who will go before us” (Exodus 32:1). They wanted a god that they could see. They went too far, however, and sought not only a mental image, but a physical one. And, even more egregious, they foolishly desired an image of the god of Egypt.
וְכֵיוָן שֶׁיְּסוֹד חֶבְרָתֵנוּ הוּא שֶׁלֹּא לִגְעֹר וְלִגְזוֹר סְתָם עַל הָאִישׁ עשה כָּךְ וְכָךְ כִּי אוֹ שֶׁלֹּא יִשְׁמַע לָנוּ אוֹ שֶׁיִּרְאֶה אֶת עַצְמוֹ לֵאמֹר שֶׁיֵּשׁ לוֹ מַחֲשָׁבָה טוֹבָה וְהִתְעוֹרְרוּת וְאֵין לוֹ. The basis of our group is that we do not rebuke and command people—for either they will not listen, or they will look at themselves and say that they already possess positive mindfulness and inspiration, even if that is not the case.
כִּי בֶּאֱמֶת גַּם כֻּלָּם רוֹצִים לִהְיוֹת טְהוֹרֵי לֵב וּבְנֵי עֲלִיָּה רַק שֶׁאִי אֶפְשָׁר לָהֶם לְהִתְעַלּוֹת מִן רִפְשָׁם כַּנַ”ל. This is because everyone wants to be pure of heart and elevated. However, most people cannot rise beyond the flotsam in which they are afloat.
וְכָל יְסוֹד חֶבְרָתֵנוּ הוּא לְהַרְכִּין אֶת הַכָּתֵף לִמְקוֹם נְמִיכֻיּוֹת הַחֲבֵרִים עַד כַּפּוֹת רַגְלֵי נַפְשָׁם וְגוּפָם, וּמִשָּׁם לְהַעֲלוֹתָם בְּאֶמְצָעִים מַתְאִימִים לָהֶם. The entire purpose of our group is to raise people. We will lower our shoulders to whatever low level another member may be on, down to the soles of the feet of his spirit and body, and from there we will raise him, using means appropriate to his condition.
לָכֵן נרְאֶה נָא גַּם לָהֶם תַּקָּנָה וְעֵצָה אֵיךְ לְהַרְגִּילָם כְּפִי מַצָּבָם. לָכֵן בְּמַצָּב כָּזֶה בְּרֵאשִׁית גִּדּוּל וְהִתְרַחֲבוּת מַחֲשַׁבְתּוֹ יִסְמֹךְ עַצְמוֹ עַל הָרָאָבָ”ד זַ”ל שֶׁמֵּשִׁיב עַל הָרַמְבַּ”ם זַ”ל פֶּרֶק ג’ מֵהִלְכוֹת תְּשׁוּבָה הֲלָכָה ז וְזֶה לְשׁוֹנוֹ: “אמר אברהם וְלָמָּה קָרָא לְזֶה מִין? כַּמָּה גְּדוֹלִים וְטוֹבִים וכו’ הָלְכוּ בְּזוֹ הַמַּחֲשָׁבָה וכו’.” Group members must be given exercises and counsel appropriate to their level, which will help them habituate themselves to mindfulness. And so, in this spirit, my counsel is that a person in such a situation—at the beginning of the growth and expanding of his mindfulness—should depend upon the view of the Ravad, who responded to the Rambam: “Why does he call a person [who attributes physicality to God] a sectarian? A number of great and good people . . . have entertained this idea . . . “ (Hilchot Teshuvah 3:7).
וְעַל פִּי פּשטו קָשֶׁה לְהָבִין אֶת דִּבְרֵי הָרַאֲבַ”ד זַ”ל הֲלֹא מִקְרָא מָלֵא הוּא, “כִּי לֹא רְאִיתֶם כָּל תְּמוּנָה” וְכַדּוֹמֶה. וְעַיֵּן בְּכֶסֶף מִשְׁנֶה שָׁם קֻשְׁיָתוֹ. It is difficult to understand the words of the Ravad. Does the verse not clearly state, “You saw no image” (besides other such statements)? (Cf. the Kesef Mishnah’s question ibid.)
וּלְפִי הַנָּ”ל לֹא שֶׁאָמַר הָרָאָבָ”ד זַ”ל שֶׁיִּטְעֶה הָאִישׁ לֵאמֹר שֶׁיֵּשׁ ח”ו לְמַעְלָה שׁוּם תְּמוּנָה, חַס מִלְּהַזְכִּיר, אֲבָל כַּנַ”ל בֶּאֱמֶת יֵדַע הָאִישׁ שֶׁהַשֵּׁם יִתְבָּרַךְ אֵינוֹ בַּעַל שׁוּם תְּמוּנָה ח”ו רַק הוּא הַקָּרוּץ מֵחֹמֶר אִישׁ מְגֻשָּׁם בַּעַל תְּמוּנָה מְצַיֵּר לוֹ זֹאת, כְּדֵי שֶׁתּוּכַל מַחְשַׁבְתּוֹ לְהֵאָחֵז וּלְהִתְגַּדֵּל וּלְהִתְרַחֵב. But in line with what was stated above, we can understand this as follows. The Ravad is not saying that we should delude ourselves that there is some image in the upper realm, God forbid, let it not even be uttered. Rather, we must know in truth that God has no image, heaven forbid. But we beings scraped of physicality, corporeal people who possess form, visualize such a thing so that our mindfulness will be able to grasp, expand and broaden.
וְכַאֲשֶׁר יַעֲזֹר לוֹ ד’ וְתִתְחַזֵּק מַחְשַׁבְתּוֹ וְתוּכַל לַחֲשֹׁב בד’ מַחֲשָׁבָה חֲזָקָה וּנְקִיָּה, וְדִמְיוֹן נִיצוֹץ נְבוּאָה יִתְגַּלֶּה לוֹ, אָז הַתְּמוּנָה הַצִּיּוּר גּוּפָנִי הַזֶּה מִמֵּילָא יִתְבַּטְּלוּ, וְיוּכַל לְצַיֵּר לוֹ בְּעֵת תְּפִלָּתוֹ שֶׁעוֹמֵד לִפְנֵי ד’ ית’ וְלִפְנֵי כִּסֵּא כְּבוֹדוֹ עִנְיָן כְּדֵי לְשַׂבֵּר אֶת הָאֹזֶן וּכְדֵי לְשַׂבֵּר אֶת הַמַּחֲשָׁבָה מָה שֶׁיְּכוֹלָה לַחְשֹׁב וּלְדַמּוֹת. Then, when God helps us and our mind grows stronger so that we can think of Him with a strong and clean mindfulness, and when an image of a spark of prophecy is revealed within us, this physical image will of itself cease to exist. When we pray, we will be able to picture that we are standing before God and His throne of glory—realizing that whatever we imagine is merely the way that our senses—our ears and mind—are capable of interpreting things .
וְגַם אַתָּה חָבֵר בְּחַבְרַיָּא בִּשְׁעַת הַדְּחָק צַיֵּר לְךָ שֶׁאַתָּה עוֹמֵד לִפְנֵי כִּסֵּא כְּבוֹדוֹ וְאַתָּה מִתְפַּלֵּל וּמְבַקֵּשׁ מִמֶּנּוּ ית’ פָּשׁוּט כְּבֵן שֶׁעוֹמֵד וּמִתְחַנֵּן מֵאָבִיו רַחֵם נָא עָלַי אָבִי, כְּבָר אִי אֶפְשָׁר לִסְבֹּל נְדוּדֵי הַגּוּף וַעֲזִיבַת הָרוּחַ, וּמִן הָעֵת אֲשֶׁר הִשְׁלַכְתַּנִי מִמְּךָ וְהִסְתַּרְתָּ פָּנֶיךָ מֵאִתָּנוּ, מָגוֹר מִסָּבִיב. And so, member of this group, if you find yourself in such an extremity, visualize that you are standing before God’s Throne of Glory and that you are praying and begging Him simply, like a son crying and begging before his father, “Have mercy on me, my Father, I can no longer bear the wanderings of my body and the abandonment of my spirit. From the time that you cast me from You and hid Your face from me, I am surrounded by terror.”
וּמִי הוּא הָאִישׁ אַף בְּלֵב אֶבֶן שֶׁלֹּא יִמַּס בְּשָׁעָה שֶׁמְּצַיֵּר בְּמַחֲשַׁבְתּוֹ אֶת הַדְּמוּת הַזֹּאת, אֵיךְ הוּא עוֹמֵד לִפְנֵי כִּסֵּא כְּבוֹדוֹ אֵשׁ אֹכְלָה וּמִתְחַנֵּן עַל עַצְמוֹ וְעַל בְּנֵי בֵּיתוֹ וְעַל כָּל יִשְׂרָאֵל. Which person, even if has a heart of stone, will not melt when he pictures that he is standing before God’s Throne of Glory, a consuming fire, pleading for himself, his family, and all Israel?Non-political, I cannot say this as an absolute fact, but I believe that the majority of Lubavitchers do believe in the a”z ideology because there are Chabad rabbis that are respected within the Chabad community saying these things and nobody is protesting their words. Furthermore, I’ve seen videos of Lubavitchers praying to the rebbes chair.
Secondly, every human being makes mistakes. Imperfection is one of the traits that defines a human being. Only Hashem is perfect, only Hashem does not ever make mistakes.
Arso, regarding what is written in the Torah about Hashem, i have provided sources in my earlier posts. I’m not going to even deign to answer your questions. It’s like answering an elementary question like why a person cant be in Australia and Antarctica at the same time… Before asking questions that are not questions perhaps you should think what you are asking. Basically, your questions can be summed up as “why matter must behave like matter”. You don’t even have to know the science of matter to understand that your questions regarding the limitations of a physical body are not valid questions at all.
I didn’t say anyone here is saying or believes that Hashem has a guf. I’m saying you are now arguing about people believing that Hashem has a guf and thats why its so stupid that you are you arguing over this because I assume that people don’t believe Hashem has a guf. The argument is whether one can see it from the Totah that Hashem doesn’t have a guf. I said it clearly shows in the Torah that Hashem has no guf.
Neville, this comment of yours,
“But, you would have come up with this on your own anyway, right? Because this is all “pashut pshat” according to you, right?”
is so incredibly immature. Grow up.Arso, do you enjoy arguing over nothing?
Hashem cannot have had a guf if He existed before matter was created, period.
He cannot have a guf if He has no form, period.
He cannot have a guf and exist forever, period.
He cannot have a guf and be in the upper worlds and lower worlds simultaneously, period.
The Ravaad is not saying that we cannot conclude from the Torah that Hashem has no guf and not that there were great people who thought Hashem has a guf. What the Ravaad is actually saying, according to the Piaseczner Rebbe, Rabbi Shapira zt”l, was that while God is unquestionably incorporeal, if someone has a need to visualize some sort of image – for example, the Divine Throne or the host of heavenly angels – in order to be able to direct his prayer properly, then this is acceptable, so long as it remains within the realm of thought and is not realized in the form of a graven image or picture.
Neville, whoever wants can read what i wrote and decide for themselves what I’m saying. You did not look into any mefoiresh and have no clue about anything so stop miscontruing what I wrote and arguing about what I mean.
The only thing that you know is that you were taught that “Yaacov lo meis” means that Rashi said that Yaacov Avinu is physically alive. That’s all you know.
I wrote that Rashi is saying he’s alive in a spiritual sense , he does not mention a guf so in no way do we HAVE to INTERPRET that Rashi is saying that Yaacov is physically alive and the pasuk said he died and no one can contradict a posuk in the Torah. Furthermore, all other meforshim I’ve gone through say that he is alive in a spiritual sense.
Thats it. Thats all im saying. If someone has any issues with what i wrote they can argue with ME about it. You do not have a right to argue about my beliefs when you are misconstruing what I said and arguing over nothing.
Stop arguing about my position. If you have an issue about what someone else believes in then you can argue with that person.
Non-political, belief in their rebbe as moshiach and his second coming is in of itself not avodah zora. But just like the Early Christians first believed in Yoshke as their moshiach, then he died so they ascribed special powers to him that he really didn’t die and he’s going to come back, from that the Christians slowly turned him into a deity.
Chabad is going down the same road but in a much quicker fashion than the Christians. First they decided their rebbe is moshiach, but then when he died they came to the conclusion that he’s really alive and he’s coming back soon as the moshiach. They believe that because they are so obsessed with him and “his powers” like an avodah zora. So now their belief in their rebbe morphed into the belief that their he runs the world, that he’s everywhere, that you can pray directly to him and that he’ll help you and that he never made mistakes. They are turning him into a deity. Also, their new religion doesn’t have gehinom as part of it because at the same time they are giving their rebbe tremendous power like an a”z, they are minimizing God’s greatness that we don’t have to fear him and that He created us for His “needs”. Now Hashem has “needs” according to them.
And that’s why I call it an a”z sign, because it all started with belief that their dead rebbe is the moshiach and that he’s alive.
If meshichus isn’t the mainstream Lubavitche ideology how can there hang a huge sign in 770 proclaiming ” long live our master, our teacher, our rabbi, king messiah, forever”? The sign loudly proclaiming their a”z beliefs that their dead rebbe is alive and soon going to have a second coming is there for a reason which is that most, if not all, Lubavitche davening in that shul, and in Lubavitche shuls globally, believe this ideology. This is now the official Lubavitche “shittah”. If all Lubavitche worldwide believe in this ideology I dont know, certainly the majority believe in what is now the mainstream Lubavitche shitta.
I just saw the ad. It is inappropriate for a frum site. But if it’s a jewish-owned business somehow it’s kashered.
Arso and Neville are now arguing with me about the belief that God supposedly has a body because the Ravaad is saying that some mistakenly thought that God has a body.
The Ravaad is not saying that Hashem has a body but that others mistakenly arrived at that conclusion. Because of that Ravaad, Arso and Neville say you can arrive at the same conclusion as the others did. If that’s the conclusion they arrived as well they can take solace that the Ravaad doesn’t consider them min although the Rambam certainly does…
Qwerty, there’s a saying “if someone doesn’t believe any stories of Chassidishe Rebbes they are a kiofer but if they believe every story to be true they are a fool”.
Shmei and co. are going further than just using Torah sources to try “prove the validity of Chabadianity”. They twist meforshim to try to get them to seem that they support their interpretations so that they will “lend support to the credibility of Chabiadinity”.
Yankel berel, so true regarding false prophets in klal Yisroel. The Lubavitche have “rabbis” like Manis Friedman denying gehinom and saying that we need to do good deeds because “God has needs and that why He created humans so that they should serve Him” not because if we sin we go to gehinim or will get punished in this world c”v. They deny that God needs to be feared and that we need to fear acting in a sinful manner.
I forgot to include the names of the people i addressed my last comment to which was meant for Neville and Arso.
I will not continue a dialogue with people who constantly lie and twist what I say. They are either not the brightest fellows around and cant follow the conversation or their ego makes them twist and lie about what I write. In any case, I’m not going to waste my time anymore with these two liars. Ciao.
Neville, you are such a liar. Now i see why querty uses the language that he does because you and others here do not a problem writing lies constantly. Or maybe you are just too dumb to follow and comprehend the conversations.
I said to Arso that “To say that God had a guf before the universe was created is so incredibly dumb” because Arso said that maybe Hashem had a guf before the creation of the universe. Neville the liar said i said it about the Ravaad who said no such thing ever.
Yes, it’s a very, very dumb thing to say that maybe Hashem had physical a guf before the creation of matter.
Skripa, you write :
“1) Ask around the right way and you’ll find that there is a very large contingent of frum women who just don’t believe any longer. They go through the motions, but they were disenfranchised so they no longer care.”
They are disenfranchised because they are immersed in the social media secular culture, not because they can’t do what men do. These disenfranchised women should first do what they are mechayiav to do before wanting supposedly to “grow spiritually by doing what the men do”. These disenfranchised women are not following their chiyuv to dress modestly, they wear zonah length wigs, tight clothing that shows their womenly bumps on all sides, oftentimes don’t wear stockings, wear short skirts, etc, they look like sluts, they can’t do one mitzva they are mechiyev in and yet they cry crocodile tears that they can’t do what the men are doing…im sure they want to daven in shul three times a day…not!“2) Women, in practice, learn better than men when given a chance. Compare your average 17-22 year old women’s knowledge of Halacha to your average man of the same age. It’s shameful that the girl will be able to run circles around the boy. And it’s not just because focus isn’t put on Halacha in boy’s Yeshivas. both genders learn Chumash and what the females learn is miles ahead of the boys. I love hocking in learning with my more modern female cousins because they have a tremendous clarity and desire to know, which I see less by men, who are mostly learning the maarei mekomos their magid shiur put up. Once they get married they get shunted off into the mommy role so they don’t have as much opportunity, but if they would, they would be the top kollelim.
I think we should be teaching gemara to girls. No reason not to. In the 100 years of organized women’s learning, they have shown that they are a benefit, not a liability. It is currently just a system trying to protect mediocre men that is blocking it now.”
Women are not smarter than men and vice versa. There are men who learn well and women who learn well. There are men who don’t understand Gemorah well and there are women who don’t understand gemorah well. One gender is not smarter than the other and vice versa.
You love hocking with your more modern female cousins. If they can hock in gemorah why are they modern (modern means they are more into secular culture). Absolutely women should not learn Gemorah in school or sem. You can learn on your own if you enjoy it so much. Hocking gemorah does not make a woman a yiras shomayim which is what we should strive for, not “equality”.
Hashem who created us with gender roles and you, with your modern thinking, are trying to confuse the roles which we are mechiyev to live with. The secular world has done that with tragic results. That’s why you have males and females in the secular world actually mutilating their bodies for life because they are so confused, they do not understand that they have different roles in life that they were created for. You think that you’re so smart that you can learn gemorah but you are being incredibly stupid in grand scheme of life. Our purpose in this world is to do what what we were created to do.
“Blessed are you, Lord our G-d, King of the universe, for having made me according to His will.”
Arso as you say “Sorry, but you should really keep out of Torah sheb’al peh discussions between men”. I’m not arguing or discussing this anymore with you, think what you want. Believe that Yaacov is alive in his kever forever, believe that’s what Rashi is saying. Who cares.
Believe what you want. I believe that Yaacov is not physically alive in his kever, that Rashi is not contradicting a posuk in the Torah and i have not seen a mefoiresh saying that Rashi is saying that Yaacov’s guf is alive forever.
I did supply the posuk regarding Hashem not having a form. I’m not looking it up again, you can go back in the thread if you wish to see it.
I’m not going to argue with you regarding what you see in the Torah. The Christians also “see” corporeality of their gods in the Torah.To say that God had a guf before the universe was created is so incredibly dumb because a physical guf is very limiting, the brain is limiting, the eyes are limiting, a being that can be contained in a guf cannot be היה הווה ויהיה, a being in a guf is not infinite, Hashem is infinite.
The third of the Rambam’s 13 principles of faith says that Hashem has no guf. The Rambam writes that when a person doubts [any] foundation among these foundations [i.e. his thirteen], he has left the community, denied the principle [i.e. God], and is called a min and a epikores and a cutter of shoots, and it is an obligation to hate him, and of him it is said “shall I not hate those who hate You, God”
You are just arguing for the sake of arguing with me. Why are you doing that? After all, you say I should “you should really keep out of Torah sheb’al peh discussions between men” so you shouldnt be arguing with me.
Yankel berel, obviously if Hashem created everything he can make miracles as well. I never said Hashem can’t make a miracle and Yaacov Avinu can’t be physically alive in his kever forever.
1. I said that the Torah says that the brothers of Yosef saw that there father died. I said that Rashi is not contradicting a posuk in the Torah that says that Yaacov died. Rashi said Yaacov is alive forever which means that he is spiritually alive forever, he did not say Yaacov’s guf is alive forever.
2. I said that being physically alive in a kever for 3,000 years is the worst punishment you can give someone. Yonah was PUNISHED by being trapped in the fish for 3 days. Can you imagine being physically alive in you kever forever? Do you want that for yourself? If you don’t want that for yourself then why would you think Yaacov Avinu wants that kind of horrible punishment?
Neville, do you know what Yiddishkeiteven is? Because if what I said regarding tzaddikim giving brochos is supposedly “checkmate/avodah zora” then you know less than an am haaretz.
Chassidish-theorist, your comments are ridiculous. Shaking a lulav and esrog does not encompass 5% of time-bound mitzvos men are required to do. Between having a shuir or two (for working men) and going to daven every single day three times a day that alone is impossible for mothers to do (unless you have a built in babysitter).
No, women are not required to get married or have children. That doesn’t mean that Hashem didn’t establish the world with the idea that women do so. He gave for the majority of women the capabilities to have children for a reason. And he did not give women time-bound mitzvos for that same reason.
No is preventing you from going to daven in shul on Yom kippur. No, men do not have to change, nor should they change, what they are mechiyev to do to accommodate you and that includes “not making a shorter minyan” so that you and other angry women can go daven in shul when it fits their schedule.
If you want a “more spiritual life”, no one forcing you to have to you to have kids which will hamper you from having a “more spiritual life”. Or if you already have a family, no one forced you to have kids so that “unfortunately ” you now have to watch them and can’t run out to shul… how tragic…
Hashem is the One who decided who is mechiav to do what but women like you who are angry that they “can’t be more spiritual” by doing what the men are, well you know what, that is not a “spiritual path” that is the path of destruction because Hashem does not want you to do what men are doing. There are plenty of opportunities to grow spiritually for women without being angry that they are “deprived” of opportunities to do what men do.
Neville, you are unwilling to say you are disagreeing with Rashi because never said that Yaacov’s guf is alive forever.
You are also disagreeing with a pasuk in the Torah.I dont reject any meforshim.
It’s really weird that you don’t want to reject what you claim is the supposed “mainstream Orthodox approach” to the Rashi (which contradicts a posuk in the Torah) while at the same time being OK to with rejecting meforshim you don’t agree with.
You wrote, “When did I ever pretend that I did? I’ve basically just been giving you social advice. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten involved in the lomdush side of this whole shmooze.”
So on the basis of your social advice I have to accept what you claim is the supposed “mainstream Orthodox approach” to the Rashi (that contradicts a posuk in the Torah) and reject meforshim that say that Yaacov lo mes means that he, or his guf, is spiritually alive. Yes, that makes so much sense.Non Political is still waiting for an answer on his multiple choice comment regarding the supposed “mainstream Orthodox approach” to the Rashi. I am also awaiting a response, I am curious in what capacity you believe that Yaccov is physically alive.
Shtark girl, questions are always important to ask even if the answers are clear-cut.
You can’t have a mother putting on teffilin while the baby is crying, you can’t cook dinner and leave little kids at home while running out to shul to daven. Even though you are still a girl I’m sure you understand why it wouldn’t work for women to have mitzvas that are time-bound. I’m sure when you’ll be older you’ll understand it even better. Hashem created this world and in His infinite wisdom gave the different mitzvos to men and women in the capacity that they can fulfill. The answer why women werent commanded to do timebound mitzvos is clear.
Part of asking questions is gaining an understanding where the questions stem from. Questions that make a person feel bitter that they can’t have something that’s not for them stems from the yetzer hora. We all have a yetzer hora, as long as we live we should be growing into better people so there’s nothing wrong in exploring why we feel the way we do. But the fact is that if we get stuck with the mindset of why we can’t have things the way we think it should be then we can never be happy. Accepting and appreciating the way Hashem has created us and what He has given us is the #1 key to happiness.
Arso, Don’t fardey me a kup. I am
Arso, now I see how you could agree with Shmei.
1. So first of all, on the other thread you and lostspark started quoting the Ohr Hachayim from וישק לו and onward which is not commenting on that posuk being the source of the Gemorah. The Ohr Hachayim commented on the posuk being the source of the Gemorah in the previous comment ויכל יעקב which you didn’t quote . Now, the Ohr Hachaim is NOT commenting on the Gemorah. He is commenting that this posuk in the parshah is the source of the Gemorah. This commentary as well as the next, is as I have said earlier, is talking of the time he expired where the posuk does not say mes. Here is where the Ohr Hachayim says that this is the source of the Gemorah.
Yaacov mes appears later in the parshah not at the time he expired. The Ohr Hachaim is commenting on the time he expired which at that time death has not taken possession of him. Nowhere does the Ohr Hachaim write that Yaacov’s guf is alive forever. We are talking about the time he expired. In fact, in his commentary after וישק לו the Ohr Hachayim is saying since Yaacov’s guf didn’t become putrid he embalmed his father so that the Egyptians shouldn’t say that he didn’t die.
ויכל יעקב לצוות וגו’. הא למדת שלא על יעקב נאמר (קהלת ח’) ואין שלטון ביום המות שהיה הדבר ברצונו וברשותו עד שכלה לצוות לבניו כרצונו ואז ויאסוף רגליו וגו’ והוא מאמר רז”ל (תענית ה:) יעקב אבינו לא מת, שאילו שלט בו המות לא היתה לו שליטה עד עת יחפוץ לאסוף רגליו, וצא ולמד מה שאמרו ז”ל בפי’ פסוק (קהלת פ”ח) ואין שלטון שאין מי שיתלה אונקלומא וכו’:
ויכל יעקב לצוות, Jacob finished commanding his sons, etc. This verse teaches that Jacob was an exception to the rule proclaimed by Solomon in Kohelet 8,8 that on the day someone dies he is no longer master over his spirit. Jacob was in full control of all his senses when he made all these arrangements. Only after having concluded all he wanted to say, ויאסוף דגליו, he gathered his feet into the bed, etc. Here is the source of the statement in Taanit 5 that “our father Jacob did not die.” If death had taken possession of him, he would not have retained control long enough to be able to put his feet back into his bed. Midrash on Kohelet 8,8 explains that on the day of death a man cannot say to the angel of death: “wait for me until I have concluded my business and then I will come.”2. The Ramban bought what Rashi is saying but is not commenting on what Rashi is saying whatsoever. He wrote his comment which absolutely does not say anything about Yaacov’s guf being alive forever. You are simply cooking up a whole cholent on the Ramban’s words. His commentary on HIS conclusion is very clear.
You wrote: “Gee! Keep away from these discussions because you are just proudly showing off your ignorance”. I’ll say what i think and you can think what you want.
Even regular Jews can give a bracha. A bracha from a tzaddik generally has more power because the tzaddik is on a higher spiritual level. A bracha is a BLESSING. A blessing does not mean that the person giving the blessing runs the world.
The power of avodah zora is that basic concepts that should be clear to humans become a haze of confusion in their desperate attempts at validating the legitimacy of their idol worship.
Neville,
You wrote: “As I mentioned earlier, you seem the most insistent out of all of us in wanting to say that you fully agree with Rashi.”
Nope, I dont care if you believe that Yaacov’s guf is alive. It doesn’t make you an apikorus if you believe that Rashi to mean that Yaacov’s guf is alive, if thats what you were taught. However, I often cannot not respond an argument, unfortunately. But really I shouldn’t anymore. I said what I have to say and that’s it. It only really bothers me that the Lubavitchers use that INTERPRETATION of the Rashi as “proof” that their rebbe can “also be alive after being buried”.
You wrote: “So, I won’t say this person is rejecting Rashi since that bothers you, but at the very least he is rejecting the other meforshim who do interpret Rashi our way (some even arguing on Rashi). It’s a pretty big chiddish to make unless he has sources to back it up.”
That is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. But if you feel that way, well, it applies even more so to you. You are rejecting the meforshim that say that Yaacov is alive spiritually. Since i highly doubt you bothered reading the meforshim that were discussed on the 2 threads, not including the Rashi which we dont agree on the interpretation, the fact is that whatever other mefoiresh they bought up and I looked at the source, NONE of them said that it means that Yaacov’s guf is alive. Maybe there are meforshim that say that Yaacov is alive physically, i didnt see them. But you are rejecting not only those meforshim that say that Yaacov is alive spiritually, you are also rejecting a posuk in the Torah which says that Yaacov died which is worse than “rejecting” meforshim!
Non political, you addressed your questions to Neville but I would like to respond to your post.
I do not believe that there is a “mainstream Orthodox position” of that Rashi despite Neville’s insistence. I have listened to a few Yeshivish/Litvish ( I dont know what they call themselves as I am Chassidish) rabbis talking about Yaacov lo meis and NONE said that it means that Yaacov’s body is alive. I have read a few articles written by Yeshivish/Litvish Rabbis and in NONE of the articles did it say that Rashi means that Yaacov’s guf is alive. My husband is Chassidish and he also was not taught that that Rashi means that Yaacov’s guf is alive.
What I’m saying here does not reflect on Chassidim in general, but as a Chassidishe myself, I know that in some Chassidishe circles they think it’s my way or the highway.
Haimy, very well said.
I would like to add that I think these types of questions are the works of the yetzer hora. It is a way for the yetzer hora to prevent a person from serving Hashem properly.
Always, yes, many, perhaps even most, of the Ashkenazi rabbonim recognized that the reality of Zionism is not bad for frum Jews. Yes, secular Zionism has led many Jews astray, but no one who lives in reality can say that Zionism is the work of the Satan and such time of silly talk.
Arso,
1. The Ohr Hachayim’s commentary is not on the Gemorah, it is on the Torah. It has no shaychus to the Gemorah. (And you had laughed at me on the other thread for not learning in yeshiva…lol)
2. I bought the entire text of the Ramban on the other thread. It says absolutely NOTHING about Yaacov lo mes meaning that Yaacov’s guf is alive. In fact, the Ramban gives another explanation for Yaacov lo mes entirely.
Always, sorry I don’t agree. If there’s nothing wrong with a moisdos that the husband wants to send his son to, it’s just ideological differences for something else the wife doesn’t like about her husband’s choice, then the husband has the right to have the last word. When people marry they know (or should know) the hashkafah and leanings of the person they are marrying. Usually the type of moisdos a person sends their children to goes accordingly with their hashkofos or where they belong. If you choose to marry someone you can’t fight the choices that automatically go along with it.
Yankel berel, that joke is only about those who “only” believe the LR is alive and will return for his second coming as the messiah. But those who’ve moved on to the next stage in the deification of him were not worried about the visit because since he’s got even greater special powers now because “he’s running the world” he will make sure that he imself won’t ever die, and therefore these people were not worried about Trump’s visit to the ohel.