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It is never helpful or compassionate to minimize someone’s pain just because someone else has gone thru worse. your pain is valid even if there’s someone who’s been thru worse. the holocaust analogy, to me, is bizarre.
that being said, i personally feel that even when i’m dealing with something extremely difficult, it helps me put things in perspective to see others who are dealing with something much worse. for example, i had a very difficult family situation recently, probably one of the hardest things i’ve dealt with in my adult life, and when it was at it’s most intense, i felt like i was breaking. but when i look at several of my friends who have teens at risk and are really struggling, i will take my peckel over theirs, any day. personally, i think it does help me to see that things could always be worse. but i would NEVER tell someone to get over themselves because someone else has it worse.
i do also feel that many ppl are burdened with their past, and can’t move forward without properly dealing with it.
i live in an OOT community. by choice. there are many many ppl who move to an OOT community for many reasons, finances being one of them. both the cost of living and the standard of living is drastically different than in NY/NJ area, where i’m from.
oot is not moving to a desert. yes, most of us dont have family here, but the community becomes our family, and my friends become my sisters. AND, if anyone were to have financial difficulties here, it would NEVER come to the case where a community member is begging on the street. do we miss family events? all the time. we go in whenever we can. in an OOT community, you can buy a 3-4 bedroom house for about 140-180k, depending on the size. some might consider that a starter house with 3-5 kids, and when they need it and/or can afford it, they move to a bigger house or renovate. as for kosher food products, some are more than NY/NJ, some less, some the same. ppl are moving out of town in droves because of the high cost of living in NY/NJ. i miss my family and friends, but i would never move back. i cannot fathom how i could afford it.
thebearisback, i’m glad you chose to edit your words, though you could have edited further. do you know that i visibly flinched at your pre-edited version??
here we go again with the hyperbole. no one is suggesting to throw a pauper out of town. NO ONE.
zahavasdad, sarcasm in good humor, i’m all for; your sarcasm, besides being unfunny, is so out of place. your example is also completely off base. perhaps you missed the halacha that we are m’chuyav to support someone in the manner in which THEY ARE USED TO, not in which they choose to. this is halacha, not a con.
that being said, suggesting that OOT is much cheaper to live, is a consideration that many would see as being very valid. obviously the original thread was talking about someone who does not want to be collecting tzedaka. therefore, in that case, i do think it is perfectly reasonable to suggest considering moving OOT.
schmendrik, you may be technically halachically and hashkafically right, but do you even hear what you’re saying? i wonder if you think you were giving someone chizuk, because you were way harsh, which has no place here.
OP, i’m so sorry for your painful financial situation, and even more sorry for the way ppl have treated you.
ZahavasDad, really???
Health, I’m glad the karate worked out for your son; that was a good idea, and definitely one of the avenues. there are many suggestions, techniques etc that might work for some, but not all victims of bullying. i dont disagree with anything you said. bullys come in all different sizes too, as do victims.
you are welcome to have all of my snow. with pleasure.
it’s never a “sure” thing, but if you go into it with the right hashkafos, dating for the purpose of marriage, and she fits specific important criteria, and you consult with ppl who know you and can advise you wisely, then you take a leap and pray. important criteria would include common goals and values for today and for the future, attraction and respect, enjoy each other’s company, and appreciate her traits that would lead you to believe that she will be a good mother. if you’re unsure, investigate further. take your time, if you need to.
silent one, take comfort in the fact that this phenomenon happens in the best of families, across the spectrum, and it’s something that we’re still trying to figure out and prevent. one of the hardest things for parents to deal with is wondering if they could have preventing it.
crisis, i would guess that you are speaking from personal experience. even if you did, your words are very hurtful. while kids going off the derech all have a story, it’s also combined with certain personality traits. for some ppl, these issues affect them in such a way, that they can’t continue to be frum. for others, they can be resilient and deal with it, or they are lucky enough to get help and have the right ppl to help them through it. so, crisis, while my knee jerk reaction is to be horrified that you can be so hurtful, what’s your story? the fact that you are here, speaks volumes, at least to me, as a frum mental health professional, because i believe in the power of change, which is synonymous with teshuva, for me. perhaps you need to speak with someone, a frum therapis perhaps to deal with it. no one is a lost cause.
crisis, can you explain where your animosity is coming from?
kids going off the derech happens for alot of reasons, but generally, there was some kind of specific negative experience/incident, abuse, tragedy, family dysfunction, sometimes combined with jewish education taught with the concept of the God of fire and brimstone instead of the God who loves us, etc.
and in the case of bullies in kids, it’s important to attack it from both angles, absolutely to deal with the bully and his/her issues, but also to counsel the victim, both to deal with it, but also to empower them. i would role play with them how they’d like to see themselves responding to said bully, teaching them to communicate firmly, assertively and respectfully. healthy communication skills is something that all kids should learn.
Rabbi Al, i’m so sorry. there are no words.
as a general rule, BH, those stories dont happen anymore in the average yeshiva, both in town and out of town, but unfortunately, there are definitely still stories in current chassidish yeshivos. i do not mean to slight the chassidish system in general; i have friends and family in a wide range including chassidish, yeshivish, heimish, modern orthodox.
as to dealing with difficult ppl/bullies, we all encounter some manner of ppl like this, and it is important to be honest with ourselves about how we’d like to react. it really depends for different ppl. for some ppl, the best thing is to stay as far away from them as possible and to have as little contact as possible. for some, this is not always possible as in the case of family. for some ppl, they are able to interact and not be terribly bothered by it. some ppl are passive aggressive and pretend to smile but are extremely angry inside. that is not helpful. if deciding to confront someone, it is important to think long and hard about what the outcome might be and what we hope to accomplish, because oftentimes ppl regret it. but if there’s any hope of making changes, as in the case of family, then sometimes it’s worth communicating.
on the other hand, because i counsel all sorts of ppl, i’ve encountered the bully perspective as well. though of them really are mean spirited ppl, and some may have serious diagnosis like personality disorders, some are just socially inept, and many many ppl just dont see how they are perceived by others. some might be horrified to hear how they are perceived by others. in some cases, it’s a matter of “kamayim hapanim lapanim”, where there’s some perceived slight, and they think they are reacting in kind. i do believe that in some cases, relationships can be repaired by open communication. i also know cases, personally and professionally, where someone turned up the charm, so to speak, and were able to change the relationship, and it really did turn things around.
and as oomis noted, it is our responsibility to be concerned with our own actions. when we have a difficult person in our life, or a one time difficult encounter, it is a test from Hashem about how we react. the difficult individual is just the messenger. at the end of the day, we want to stay as far away from macklokes as possible.
yosef, that is clearly not what you said. your initial post was intentionally provocative, unnecessary and hyperbolic.
crisis, the pain a parent feels when their child goes off the derech is one of the worst any person can imagine. of all the nisyonos a person can go thru, this one is just about the worst. for you to be so callous and cruel, and apply superficiality is just beyond reprehensible.
i have no doubt that the moderators will block you, but interestingly enough, the only reason i can think why you even visit this website is because you might have left the frum community with some bitterness, but on some level, you might miss it. and rightly so.
i object to calling our kids “just like the goyim”. yes, some frum kids act like vilde chayos. and i would agree with previous posters, that this is an isolated incident, and it would not be fair to call it a generalization. BUT i do agree that a lack of middos has become commonplace in many frum areas, some more than others. unfortunately, chilul hashem is a foreign concept to many. it bothers me tremendously.
“People hate converts and BT’s” oy!! what a horrible statement! can you seriously believe that?
i can hear that ppl might feel that it is often smarter to have similar backgrounds because there’s a concern that the differences could contribute to shalom bayis issues, but generally, if the individuals themselves are flexible, their options are not limited. of course, it depends on the individual. some ppl are open to it, and others are not.
as an FFB, i want to apologize profusely to any BT/ger who has felt any discrimination in real life, or on this thread.
There are many versions as to who Yushka was, and we have no definitive answer. the versions range from him being a complete fabrication, and there are several stories of a Yeshu in the gemora that may or may not be the Yeshu that the Christians called Jesus. In a historical book called Constantine’s Sword, written by a Christian, it describes the possibility of fabrication, as well as the motivations as to why that happened. According to the Christians though, it was not Jesus at all who “started” the religion, but rather, his disciples carried on his words and added liberally to them.
yosef, come on, it just happens to be that many ppl have off, and schools who have alot of secular or non jewish english teachers have a half day. it’s no different than any other legal holiday. assimilation, i think not.
Who’s on First?
rtabs, i hope you mean dress up appropriately outside? while it is definitely a good idea for a couple to get dressed and go out together, she should never compromise her tznius by dressing up inappropriately outside of the house, because that means that the motivations on both their parts are not for the marriage itself. she can dress however she or he likes within the confines of their home, and she should definitely take more care in her general appearance for him at home.
Just like with parenting children, when they do something right- praise them to the hills. they hear what makes you happy and want to please you. positive reinforcement really does work. so give your wife opportunities to dress up and tell her how much you enjoy that. dont tell her what you dont like, – criticizing is hurtful and ineffective, but letting her know what you like in a positive way is much more likely to get you what you want. every time she does something that you like, let her know very loudly. of course, that’s assuming that she ever does dress the way you want. if not, then you might want to suggest going on a shopping trip together. be very careful with her feelings- if a woman hears that her husband does not find her attractive- whoa, you dont want to go there. if there’s something particular that you would like, find the right moment, perhaps an intimate moment, when she is feeling good about herself, and start the conversation by telling her how much you appreciate her- and give specifics, and tell her something like that you dont want to be old fogeys, and remember when we were young etc. ask her if there’s anything you can do to make her happy. she might just tell you to take the garbage out. hopefully, the conversation will come around to reciprocating. you can think about it a second and say, you know what i would love, if you would try x for me. and if it’s something that might not be tznius, tell her to buy it just for you, at home.
and to the womenfolk, myself included, i say, yes of course, we should be dressing up for our husbands at home. what does that say, if we dress up to go out of the house, but not for our husband? dressing up does not mean heels and hose, but at least something- look in the mirror around the time that your dh comes home, and do something extra, put on some lipstick for him. in this scary world out there, with lots of opportunities for acting on our taayvos, the women have the power to protect our marriage.
We ALL use whatever money we have for tanugei olam haba, but each according to their means (hopefully). I personally believe that we are all too megusham, and that is not the life that Hashem wants us to lead. when there is so much wrong going on in the world, so so many actual aveiros and lack of middos, that this issue which comes down to sensitivity, prioritizing etc is petty and smacks of jealousy.
@ cantgetit, if i wasnt mildly amused, i would be offended, at how you went to such lengths to apply my words and twist them to suit you.
i would love to be a fly on the wall when someone takes upon themselves the “duty as Jews to spiritually help and correct” you.
@ DaasYochid, well said.
@ BaalHabooze, really?? first of all, i wouldnt even recognize a fancy watch if i saw one, and dont have a concept of how much they could cost.
EVERYONE has their tayvos, no one is exempt. and when each of us look at our laundry list of things that we need to fix, why do you feel the need to look at your neighbor and worry about the simple tayva of a wealthy person. maybe that is his test, and i’m not even convinced that he failed if he chooses to buy it. seriously, why do we have to point fingers at other people? are we done fixing ourselves, that we have to go tell someone else what he has to fix? when i think of everything that is wrong with the world, sure, there are ppl who are too materialistic, but that is far from the worst tayva. sure there are ppl who break the bank to feel the need to live up to the Kohns and that is a problem, but it’s not the rich man’s problem.
in fact, when you think of all the Torah sources related to this, you have the halacha of giving tzedaka to the rich man to let him live according to his previous lifestyle, you have R’ Yehuda Hanassi who was known to be fabulously wealthy, and you have the idea of hiddur mitzva. for example, i know someone who got an expensive watch from his wife when he finished the daf yomi because he gets up in the wee hours of the morning and the watch was symbolic.
i just see so much pain and suffering in the world because of so many other things. someone is who bothered by how someone else spends their money, is just making their own life miserable. stop looking at yenem, and start doing your own cheshbon hanefesh.
the 40,000$ watch is just the adult’s version of a fancy toy. i’ve seen this attitude with raising children and it boggles my mind that parents seem to almost encourage their child who is jealous and wants what the rich kid has. it’s our duty as parents to teach our kids that being rich is also a nisayon, but our nisayon is to be sameach b’chelko and to have the basic emunah that Hashem gives us exactly what we need. but first, we need to teach the adults.
WIY, how do you know that the motivations behind someone wearing that watch? i highly doubt they would spend that kind of money to “poke out yenem’s eyes”. and how do you know if that person didnt already send at least 40,000$ to help those affected by sandy? i am barely even middle class, but i have friends who are fabulously wealthy and literally support the city. and i think that it would be disingenuous to say that there isnt just a teeny tiny bit of jealousy if you have a problem with it. and again, when you think of all the aveiros and tayvos that ppl have, is this one really so bad? and remember that if this was put in your face, then it’s a test for you, how are YOU going to respond. we all have our own nisyonos. i dont know about you, but mine are much more serious than wearing a 40,000$ watch.
why does this bother you so much? wow, i can’t believe the nastiness towards the wealthy. jealous much? Everyone has their tayvos; if someone can afford it, wearing an expensive watch is relatively harmless. if someone is super wealthy and can afford an expensive watch, who are you to tell him not to? the wealthy people that i know literally support the city. if they choose to wear fancy clothes and make lavish simchas etc, that’s part of our nisayon as non wealthy people, not theirs. i can’t understand this attitude that it’s the wealthy people’s fault that someone else feels the need to break the bank by imitating them. everyone live according to their means, and shalom al yisroel.