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Meno there could be a prophecy.
Syag Lchochma it’s really good to hear.
LU since I’ve been misunderstood on several posts and by several people it’s only fair to admit I probably could phrase myself more clearly. I do find it a bit tiresome to make the disclaimer “I’m not an apykoires” every time I write a post. But I can see how some of the things I said could be misunderstood. Anyhow Thanks for being nice and for apologizing.
LU and Joseph when did I ever say we should take our values from western sociaty? I said that certain values of western sociaty make sense. I an not sure which part of my post you disagree with. Please clearify.
Joseph what I heard in the yeshiva was that everything, or almost everything has value. Some “western concoctions” are very reasonable. It’s just that they don’t stand above everything else.
For example it IS reasonable that women should get equal pay as men. It IS reasonable that a woman can turn to the law if she is sexually harrased. It IS reasonable that people should get equal oppurtunities regardless of their skin colour.
The reason western ideas have taken such an hold on our minds is because they actually make sense to us, not because we were brainwashed.
We should not put the values of equalitiy and human rights above everything else, but we also shiuldn’t ignore them just because they are the only things western sociaty cares about.
I appreciate everything you say, and I appreciate your good intentions. At the same time you make it impposible for me to answer you. Anything I might say is lashon ara by your standards, and I have no reason to make you read things you don’t want to read. I suppose you let people talk more freely in real life, otherwise I don’t see how you’re getting at the truth.
I’d also like to note that it’s not very reasonable to make a discussion where you say that something is lashon ara and then make the sweeping opposite statement. ALL people in kolel except a tiniest minority are great masmidim. ALL frum people are VERY careful about gezel. Newspapers are VERY careful about lashon ara. The last three statement are to my opinion and knowladge partial or complete lies (I know you think they aren’t) I think it’s only fair that if you make it impposible for the other side to make their case, that you refrain from making one-sided arguments.
The only thing that I agree with you completely about is that the internet is a very dangerous place to criticise frum people in. I do think though, that if a certain newspaper spread lies you should let people know about that so they aren’t influenced. If it’s ok to say that the music of a certain singer (say Lipa) is asur, it should ok to say that a newspaper is asur. Newspapers have much greater influence than any singer could ever hope to have.
What I actually tried to convey in my previous messages was that you should be equally careful about Hotzaas Shem Ra about other groups and communities. Some frum people aren’t.
Yes I meant sparkly and Joseph because they have quite polarized worldviews.
LU you are right that it’s bad to spread lies about frum communities (this is what you posted your Mechoe on) but it’s equally bad to spread lies and dehumanize secular and non-charedi communities. You mentioned that you live in E”Y, so you probably know that certain frum newspapers, purportedly supervised by Gdoley Yisrael, are doing just that (spreading lies) and They have been at it for decades. Please be moche on that too. My rav was and I respect him greatly for that.
You should meet in the real world. That’d be on awsome argument to listen to.
The S”A actually uses the word ??????? which in the way it is used in the talmud simply means: “has obligations to”
(that’s at least how they use the term in the yeshivot today. I’m not 100% certain it doesn’t have any additional connotations in the gmarah)
Above all remember that hashem is the one who gives everything and ask him for what you need.
LU I guess in 5 minutes someone would have told you it wasn’t tsnius for a woman to drive a car at all.
Little Frogie might it have something to do with the fact that a frog is feminine in Hebrew? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????
Little Froggie while it’s true that it’s more normal for the husband to be dominant, that doesn’t make it an obligation by the torah. It’s also normal for the husband to be the one who provieds for the family, while the wife is raising the kids. Yet in many frum communities, espacially in E”Y, the wife works until 16:00 pm and is the one who’s bringing the money.
Regarding the megila, obviously the husband has always been the one who is the ruler LEGALLY. There’s no argument about that.
Joseph:
If you open your eyes and look around you you’ll see many frum families where the wife has a lot to say on everything that happens in the house. They are not all sinners or feminists. In fact, when I read stories about gdoley israel it’s clear that some of them had wives who had a lot to say on many things. They are also not sinners, baaley toeiva or feminists.
Here’s how I see it: the Rambam only talks about the wife. He doesn’t say anywhere that the husband is obligated to be the dominant one. Please let me know if any of your sources say anything about the husband being obligated to be dominant.
So if the husband has made a decision but his wife won’t listen to him, I can see how that’d be a problem according to the Rambam. Or, if the husband made a decision, but he listens to his wife because he thinks men and women should have an equal saying on everything – I can again see how that’s a problem.
But if the husband is just not cut out to be a “king” or a “commander”, and his wife is the one managing the house simply because she is more dominant in her nature, I cannot see how that’s a problem at all. In general if for any reason the husband wants his wife to be the one who have a word about some subject, there’s nothing wrong with that.
Joseph, I didn’t say that I agree with the Wolf. but you just ignored what he said and assumed he was driven by feminism. That’s not a reasonable way to debate.
Joseph did you even read what the Wolf said? He made it very clear on several of his posts that he disagrees with you because his own experiences show otherwise. Why do you insist on making this about feminism and the western world?
You keep bringing the western world in, which makes me suspect it plays a very big part in the way you form your opinions.
Feivel that it exactly! Where I read it it assumed the rock is denser than water, and so it displaces more water inside the boat (the amount of water equal to it in weight) than it does outside (the amount of water equal to it in volume)
If the rock is as dense as water, or less dense, it would displace the exact same amount of water inside and outside – the amount which is equal to it in weight.
Meno why is this incorrect?
Meno, but if the boat is lighter it doesn’t sink as deep as before, and so it displaces less water. Isn’t it so?
Joseph it’s clear to me that the rambam didn’t c”v mean to say that a wife should treat her husband like a master in her. -actions-. Do you think he was trying to fix men up with lifelong slaves? That makes me shudder!
What he meant was that this is the way that a wife should treat her husband in her heart! That she should respect and admire him to such extent that he’ll be a like a king in her eyes.
If a wife feel that way towards her husband in her heart, I’d imagine serving him drinks might be one way she’d express that feeling.
But if a wife is -required- to serve her husband drinks, and is not doing so as a result of her admiration of him, the only thing she’ll be thinking is “I’d like to spill this on his head”. And that’s the only thing you might achieve from asking woman to serve drinks and open doors.
there was this nice problem I read the other day. You are in a boat on a lake. There’s a rock on the boat. If you throw the rock into the water, does the water level goes up or down?
It’s very easy for anyone who’s learnt physics.
The thing is, in real life I would rarely if ever find myself having a conversation with a woman that isn’t my immediate relative.
But since here I do have conversations and discussions with the opposite gender (and let’s assume it’s legitemate for a moment) I can’t act all cold. I carry my conversations the way I do in real life: with a smile. If I think I’ve offended someone, I apologize. If someone wrote a really thoughtful post – I try to acknowladge that. I can either talk with someone in a natural way , or I can not talk to them at all. I suppose it’s easier for people who are very matter of fact in all their conversations. I’m not like that.
That was funny. Thanks.
The way I see it the main problem for women to see prizus is that seeing someone who is oyver aveira has bad influence on your ruchnius (this is the main problem I could think of). This is not a problem in the swimming pool where there is no aveyra to begin with. That’s pretty obvious.
With that said, saying that it’s the same chumra for men and women, or that it’s worse for women, seems completely crazy (the idea not the people) because for men histaklus leads to hirhur (?????) and maase (????) So I’m sorry but it makes no sense.
LU I think you would agree with me yourself if you knew what a big deal they made of shmirat aeinaim in the yeshivos, as opposed to how little they talk about it in seminaries.
Maybe this is a linguistic misunderstanding. The “Shulchan Aruch” has become a short for “everything hashem wants from you”. However I was only talking about the book “Shulchan Aruch” (and other diney mamonot sources)
I don’t think you should resolve problems in shlom bait by looking up who’s right in diney mamonot. LU hasexplained the reasons for that better than I could. I doubt anyone disagrees with that?
And Golfer, doesn’t your response seems to you a little bit too alarmed?
You’ve probably heard arguments to both sides so many times before… it’s really hard to say anything original.
I just don’t think anyone knows what most boysgirls want. In particular the idea that women should not look too smart seems strange to me since there are many intelligent girls out there.
Does shlugged up means beaten in an argument?
I guess nobody likes that but if he turns you down for this I doubt it’s such a big loss.
Joseph I’m not married, but I think most married couples prefer to settle their disagreements without involving the Shulchan Aruch. If I may add that seems to be the healthy thing to do. I appreciate your bkius though.
Very funny (: I wasn’t talking about the energy spent on arguing here, but about the energy spent on deciding whether to go before a lady and acting upon your decision. I suppose I came across as condescending. Sorry for that.
Let me go back to limud now.
Almost every action has some implications. I think we should save our energy for decisions that have greater impact than givingnot giving precedence to the other gender (I’m talking about the general idea of ladies first and not walking behind women which is halacha matter)
I doubt this subject would even come up, if it didn’t involve the whole “us vs goyim” battle which seems to excite people for some reason.
There are much bigger issues to consider in life than who goes through the door first. Honestly you can play chess to decide who does. Or whoever is taller goes first. No one cares.
What I’m saying is we should distinguish tafel from ikar.
I know my parents the best and so in midos I could say they are my role models.
In my outlook on life I’m most influenced by my rabanim in the yeshiva.
I have certain gdoylim to whom I connect more than others.
In most of what I do though my yetzer arah plays a much bigger part than my role models (:
1. Moderating is the best solution, not a perfect one. If you want to see how much worse is the alternative just look anywhere on the internet.
2. It takes really close-minded and redical moderator(s) to delete a post just because it’s too zionist.
3. Even if it was a real problem, There are much bigger evils than a website that isn’t pluralistic enough.
yekke2: “Yes, we all agree that there are those who don’t belong in Kollel. There are people in every sector of humanity who don’t belong, who are simply working on the benefits a specific vocation would have for them, and skirt the responsibilities it comes with. But these are a minority. And to say that this is the entire Kollel community is nothing short of ????? ?? ??”.
How many people do you suppose there are in mathematics faculties who don’t belong there? Very few. And you know why? Because you don’t go to study math unless you want to. And if you find out it’s not for you, you can leave. And if you don’t like it that much, you can dedicate just part of your time to it and do something else in your remaining time.
That’s not the situation with learning in kolel in the litvak community. You don’t chooses to go to kolel. You have to go, regardless of your abilities and inclinations. You might hate it, but you still can’t leave. You must spend two thirds of your waking yours there.
How many people who are out of place do you suppose such an institution yields? Considering the above, I’d be very surprised if batlonus wasn’t a very significant part of kolels. But you don’t have to guess. You can just go and see for yourself. You will find many people who outright do nothing. You’?l find even more who learn torah in the least enthusiastic way possibly. You can call them “yeveshim” (dry) or whatever you like. Clearly the last thing they have is motivation.
“This is a disgusting portrayal of bitter people determined to talk down a beautiful lifestyle which makes them feel inferior”.
What makes them feel inferior is not just the lifestyle, but partly a sociaty that’s determined to look down at them, for reasos that are everything except yiras shomaim.
No worries 🙂
I’ll try again: I don’t feel walking behind a woman is non-tznius. I wouldn’t avoid it of it wasn’t an halacha. There are other things I don’t do because they feel non-tznius, for example going to the beach. Walking behind a woman is not one of them.
Joseph I think what Meno means is that “walking” is something you do more more than half a second.
Like I said it doesn’t feel non tznius to me. Rs”z in his discussed tshuva give a good svore to why it is, or used to be, non tznius.
No it doesn’t feel to me as non tznius. But I could say the same about other hilchot tznius. What the point of this? And wouldn’t “walking behind isha” be a more appropriate title to this post?
As for the definition of being “in kolel”: when I read the resume of a girl, and it says her older brother is in kolel, I don’t take it to mean he is a great masmid. It’s about the way people talk. Nothing more.
LU now that I’m reading the question again I see it says: “tend not to be” so it allows for a minority who are in kolel and are not so ruchnius (is it used as an adjective?) So I take back what I said. I thought it referred to all people.
Yet we have different opinions about the dagrees of batole in kolels. That’s ok. I’ve no way to show I’m right, and I don’t think you have, so there is no point arguing.
It’s good to know you agree with my second point.
LU that couldn’t have been what the OP meant, because then there is no question. If you measure ruchnius by torah learning, then by definition everyone who learns more is of greater ruchnius.
With that said I liked how you put it. Torah is ruchnius.
My answers to the OP question: there are many people who are in kolel and are complete batlonim and have no yiras shomaim. Just mitvas anoshim melumodo.
I do agree that there are more gdoylim (in both torah and maasim tovim) to be found inside the kolel than outside. That’s not surprising, because someone who is ben alie will try harder to stay in torah learning.
Also, today in some communities it’s shameful to works for a living. So many people who do works either come from a more modern communities, or left their community for a more modern lifestyle.
Joseph what do you think about that?
Meno I had a friend once who made jokes all the time. I forget what happened to him.
Meno I’m not sure whether you’re joking. I said something similar and it was in the context LU explaind. Also it really doesn’t matter what name you give something.
Socially we’re similar. In pnimius they have their stronger points and I have mine. With that said I’m in awe of their avodas hashem sometimes.
20-30. Male. Single. I’m charedi but only socially. I believe in hashem and his torah and not in institutions.
In your family, do they have the same expectations from a 13 year old and a 18 year old?
If you were at a store, and two 13 year olds came in, would you say: “I was at the store and two men came in”?
If not than the definitions do not correspond.
In the real world they don’t tell you what to do every minute of the day. You are responsible for your own yiras shomaim and limud.
Also at home a bachur has more responsibility if he helps in house chores. He needs to be parent with his sibling’s. In the yeshiva sometimes you can get everything.
There are exceptions to both paragraph. Some yeshivot give guys total freedom. Some bachurim have much more responsibility at the yeshiva.
LU I heard a version of the story which supports yours. In that version the bachur asked: “where’s my bashert” and the steipeler answered (in pain) “but you’ve met her and turned her down for some foolish reason”.
According to this version, there is no reason to assume the steipeler held much of the bashert concept. He could have simply been talking to the guy in his own language. What the steipeler actually tried to say is that the guy had made (and possibly would make) bad decisions. And that if he chooses not to marry nothing can help him.
I like this interpetation because it emphasizes the steipeler wisdom much more than the common one.
Why is it that we always talk about yeshivot as a collective? Couldn’t we cancel bein azmanim in some yeshivot, while keeping it in others?
This could come in handy in shiduchim too. “Yes, Sarah had a great time too. But she’s looking for someone who doesn’t take bein azmanim”.
On a serious note, bein azmanim is immensely important. For those who learn intensively, it’s a necessery repose. In general it allows bachurim to connect with their family and the real world (to some extent) It also give them some freedom from their friends’ influence. Living 24 hours with other people your age can crush your individuality.
That’s it. I think I’ve put in enough contoversy for this to go on.