Person1

I wanted to let CR know that I got engaged! So mazel-tovs are due…

(I debated long if and when to post this, because I worry that I might spend too much time posting, which I can’t afford… so if you see me post more than once a day here, it’s probably a bad thing)

No I wasn’t offended at all. I realized it was humorous. I just found it extra funny because these is the kind of statements some 18 year old boys actually make.

Thanks for complimenting my English. I appreciate that.

LU Actually having English speaking parents is not enough to be able to write as well as I do. There are people in Israel who speak English fluently but aren’t able to write one proper sentence. Their grammar is aweful and their vocabulary is limited to everyday talk. So Regardless of my parents nationality, I studied very hard.

“if a boy in the Israeli Chareidi world learns english, it means he is OTD”

Lol if an Israeli boy speaks English they probably went to Yeshiva Tichonit (like the Yishuv) receieved academic education or watched movies. Each of the above would give them better knowladge of English than the average Chareidi guy. I suppose there are people who consider these kind of guys OTD lol.

LU I’m alive and well thanks for asking. I’ve been very busy and couldn’t found time to post. Hope everyone is well and wish all of you all the Brachot.

I assume this is before the first date?

I’ve had many shiduchim where the girl was asked first, or both of us were asked at the same time. I can’t think of even one case where the shadchan waited for me to say yes before asking the girl. I’m Israeli but I can’t say if it’s like this with everyone here.

I got the impression from a friend that with the Datyim Leumyim you ask the guy first and only once he gave his answer you ask the girl. Many meet on their own, but if they are set up by a friendshadchan it’s done this way.

Personally I see no reason to get offended by being turned down before the first date. Usually no one gives a picture, and the reason for being turned down could be related to the family (E.G. the father isn’t well liked in the community) or there was another suggestion which superficially looked more appealing

If you’re talking about after the date, the shadchan will usually call the guy first for his answer (so the girl isn’t turned down after giving a positive answer)

Joseph: “The secular/chiloni Israelis, especially the elite, hold Sephardim in contempt. Just like they hold the Torah in contempt r’l. Baruch Hashem the frum Sephardim and frum Ashkenazim in Eretz Yisroel get along splendidly together with each other, just as the frum American Sephardim and Ashkenazim in New York, Lakewood, Deal, New Jersey, etc. get along spectacularly with each other. Both in Eretz Yisroel and in America you will find Sephardim in most Ashkenazi yeshivos, especially the top Ashkenazi yeshivos.

Unfortunately the secular/chilonim in Israel, in a feeble attempt to justify and cover up their discriminatory anti-Sephardic policies in the State of Israel, its universities as well as private industry, falsely accuse the frum of Eretz Yisroel of also having some sort of bias against Sephardim. It is laughably false. But they, especially the anti-religious media in Israel, never cease making their false allegations.”

Shameless lies and ridiculus delusiuons. I could refute every word of this cheap propaganda in two seconds with facts nobody in E”Y would deny. I leave it to the readers to check out the facts (not opinions) and I promise it won’t be hard.

Until today Joseph I had a lot of criticism for you, but I didn’t hold you for a lier. From now on I won’t believe a word that comes out of your mouth.

The frightening part is that you believe you’re obligated by the torah to distort reality so it fits what you think the world is supposed to look like (I.E. everything chareidi is perfect) Just goes to show you the amount of stupidity that can be done “Leshem Shomaim”.

There is evil in the world, I’m so shocked!

LU:”If: A. Schok = having fun in a non-platonic manner

and B. A date by definition is non-platonic.

Then,C: it can’t be assur to have “schok” on a date.”

Thank you! Exactly what I thought. And I happen to think points A and B to be true, which makes C true as well.

Perhaps people don’t go to “interesting” date destinations because it’s fun. In fact I doubt it’s fun at all*. Maybe they do that because they haven’t managed to open up in the more conventional settings.

In any case I have to say we’ve gone a long way from “is dating tznius” to “you shouldn’t go to Dave and Busters on your date”. Maybe if the OP had put it this way readers would have taken him more seriously. Than again, maybe being taken seriously was not the objective in the first place.

As to the main discussion: maybe Schok and Kalus Rosh is understood to refer to a type of forbidden relationship or interaction, rather than forbidden acts (like eating chomez on pesach) If you crack jokes with a female worker in your office, that’s a very different kind of interaction than making the same jokes with someone whom you consider marying in three monthes. I suspect that if someone can’t see that they have never been on a chareidi date.

* Personally I don’t really find dating to be fun, unless you get married at the end. It’s a very short lives fun in any case.

Joseph: “

American yeshivish bochorim, by and large, do not have their own cars. They usually borrow their father’s car or rent a car for the date. So the fact that the Eretz Yisroel yeshivish bochorim don’t drive their dates is a deliberate decision. They could’ve also borrowed a parents or relatives car or rented one. But they b’davka do not”

Please when you’re speculating about a country and a sociaty you don’t live in have the decency to add words like “seems like” and “probably”.

Because how can you go to a bunch of seminary girls and say to them “Everything you do you should do in order to serve hashem”? That’s totally unrealistic! They have countless reasons to do everything they do, none of which has anything to do with the torah. Should they just “turn it off” and replace it with hashem? they can’t do that, (nor does the teacher)

I just don’t see how that’s a practical guideline by any means. They’re just pretty words.

Let me give you an example: Am I posting here to serve hashem? No I’m here because I enjoy it. So you might say: “yes but by spending a certain amount of time doing things that you enjoy you get the energy to spend time later doing mitzvot”. But that’s just another way of saying serving hashem is not so important to me. Because if it was, I wouldn’t need so much time reenergizing.

Joseph: “amusement park, bowling, ice skating, restaurant, sightseeing, etc.? I dunno. The yeshivish oilem doesn’t seem to do that in Eretz Yisroel”

There’s no disputing dating in E”Y is more conservative, but you should remember that The yeshivish oilem in E”Y rarely go to ice-skating or bowling at all, not only on dates. For many even restaurants are out of the question (depending on how yeshivish we’re talking about)

Parks are a very common destination for a date in E”Y too.

If a guy can get a car it’s perfectly normal to drive the girl tofrom the date, (and I’m not talking about “modern” guys) but it’s never a requirement like with you. In any case the guy would order a cab for the girl and accompany her home (unless distance would not allows)

LU (summarizing others) “That is how the Rambam defines an Eved Hashem – as someone whose entire purpose in life is to serve Hashem and EVERYTHING he does is for that purpose. This is a chiyuv and not a chumra.”.

That’s a lot to expect from yourself though. I think the OP was talking about more realistic and practical definition. One that you could measure yourself against.

I would go with the Mesilas Yeshorim definition of zeirus.

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To find what needs changing, and try to change it. I think that’s the minimum requirement.

Shopping613 I agree very much with the idea that it’s important to want to improve.

However I don’t see the point in saying that one person is a real jew (wants to get to a higher level) and the other is not.

First of all, this hardly help you at all with your own torah and mitvot. That we are expacted to respect every person is for sure. What’s the point then of saying that one person is real and the other is fake?

And secondly you can’t really know who wants to get better and who doesn’t. People could be making progress in ways you’re not aware of. Also some people might have been Bney Alyia when they were young and lost it with the years. They may get back on their feet at a later point. You can’t really label them as anything.

Thanks for explaining.

I can assure you of one thing, which is that this is not something they only tell baaley tshuva. I’ve had quite a chareidi upbringing and I’ve heard the notion you mentioned many times.

In my opinion, if they don’t tell this to boys in the yeshivot it’s because this is simply not something central to judaism. The question “who is better” is not relevant to observing torah. There are much more practical guidlines about the way men and women should interact. The subject is usually brought up to explain some things in the halacha that are sometimes perceived as being against women.

I want to add one other thing later I hope I have the time.

LU: “I think Person1 has a point. All these posts from several posters about how abuse is not abuse if it’s not physical and how people should stay in bad marriages, etc, can be kind of dangerous.”

If that was all I would have let it pass (though that’s dangerous too) but he went as far as saying that our past glory was gained by tolerating (or encouraging) abuse:

“Furthermore, In every glorious community,kehilla,country ,empire

that people look back nostalgically, there were were many who were stepped on and were abusive to some.

Froth all you wish ,but it was through those means that greater glory was gained for all”

and than he said women might be ok with (or fond of?) being abused

“Ponder please this also

Which books-

for women ,

are some of the hottest bestsellers in recent years?

Those which females are being abused?!

And women seem to be unable to get enough!”

I’m rereading (and pondering) the last quote again and again maybe at some point it’d seem less crazy.

Religous level differences might be a reason too. People who lie to others andor themselves about their religous level before getting married, or people who simply change at some point in life.

I don’t know how common it is but I know it exists.

LU: “Lightbrite – good point! very true.

At the same time, we do need both. Some people will use these kinds of arguments to attack those who are makpid on halacha (or maybe even are machmir sometimes – oh, the horror!).

The fact that our kesher with Hashem is important does not mean that halacha is not important and should not be used as an excuse to criticize people who feel that their Avodas Hashem involves being makpid in halacha (and maybe even engaging in chumras on occasion).

I know that you don’t do that, but there are those that do.”

You’re 100% right and even if you weren’t I respect your opinion but, (and please hear me out)

Doesn’t it fell a bit off topic to you?

What I mean is, is it necessery to make this kind of disclaimers every time one discusses any topic that could possibly be used against the torahfrum people?

I feel like being overly careful about how others could wrongly useinterpet the ideas you express might suppress any original idea and thought you have. You can’t think that way, and you can’t talk that way.

You need to first think independently and freely. If later you release your ideas to the public, you should revise them and make sure they can’t be easily misinterpeted. But you can’t have the little censor on your shoulder whisper in your ear the whole time.

I felt like you were too quick to divert the discussion into what it

–shouldn’t– be about, instead of actually dealing with what it is about. That’s why I brought this up. But even if you don’t feel it’s relevant here. I still had to get it out.

lightbrite “I’ve had rabbis tell me that people focus too much on religion and not enough on Hashem.”

I’ve heard this statement a few times. I’m not sure about its meaning. Does it mean that some people are machmir just as a way to promote their social status? It’s obviously bad but I wouldn’t call that “religion”.

Maybe it means that some people observe only part what hashem told them to do? Like, hashem wants us to keep halacha but he also wants us to be nice to each other. So by only doing one of these things, we show that we don’t care about hashem’s will in its entirety, but focus instead on some part of his mitzvot?

There could also be a new, modern interpetation. That people care more about where they belong in sociaty (whether they are chareidi, MO, yeshivish, and what percent of each) then what the torah wants them to do?

LU no that’s not what he said. You’re taking him out of context.

“so all those Hillary fans, do you not believe Hashem runs the world”

He clearly implies that if you’re supporting Clinton you’re likely a kofer.

I’m still curious as to how going to seminary in E”Y has become part of the US frum chinuch system. I’m not trying to play down the advantages. I’d understand it if some of the girls did it, but from what I hear (I’m not American) almost everyone does it.

The connection to E”Y is one answer that satisfies me.

“The Zchus should be that people are more careful and learn to properly treat their tfillin”.

On first thought, people don’t needs reminder to be careful of their tfillin. They are careful as it is. It’s just that because you have to carry them around it’s hard never to misplace them.

But on second thought, there’s some logic here. People don’t usually lose stuff that costs 100000$ to retrieve (or rather they never do). So if that happens, there’s clearly a gap between how the halacha “feels” about sth and how we feel about it.

LU: “btw, some peoplach enjoy talking about serious topics…it’s not such a terrrible thing.”

Every two weeks someone opensbumps a thread about how the CR has been taken over by aliens. Open one of your own if you want. But don’t let it bother you.

“And on that note, maybe we should return to the original topic of discussion. As inappropriate as I found it, I am finding this topic more inappropriate (my own posts included).”

Lol I was quite shocked at all you tzadikim here going on about this weird topic. I thought maybe being comfortable with christianity was an american thing.

lightbrite yes that’s what I meant.

Being that I am male and born to a chareidi family I can’t really advise you on your own struggles. I can just suggest that you instill in yourself the belief that people can change (which means Bchirah) even if the path to change is not visible. Also don’t focus only on a Single issue in the Torah. Find other places where you can step up your yiras shomaim.