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Patur Aval AssurParticipant
So I think I found a source that it was in fact Amalekite females that Yoav spared. The Yalkut Hamechiri on Psalms 18:61 brings a midrash about Yoav singlehandedly killing thousands of Amalekites. After describing the bloodshed it says:
??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32636&st=&pgnum=132
But there are several problems with this:
1) The Yalkut Hamechiri is not an original work. It is a collection on midrashim. So what is the original source of this midrash? The Yalkut Hamechiri introduces it as …???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???
The problem, as eloquently expressed by Solomon Buber in the footnote, is: ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????
2) In this midrash Dovid asks Yoav if he fulfilled the Torah’s command of ???? ?? ??? ???? and Yoav responds that he did – he only spared the king, the children, and the women. And Dovid does not object to this.
3) The Gemara in Bava Basra, and for that matter the pesukim in Melachim, are pretty clear that the war under discussion was with Edom.
Perhaps it is theoretically possible that there were two different wars and both times Yoav spared the females and Dovid only objected the second time. However, (besides for the fact that this seems extremely unlikely,) if the Gemara was in fact talking about Edom and the midrash was talking about Amalek then the Sefer Hachinuch should have cited the midrash, not the Gemara.
So I think it’s still a ?”?.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantIt also says:
“Twoflower was a tourist, the first of the species to evolve on the Disc”
Which is explicit that Twoflower is in fact from Discwold.
My answer to the contradiction is that the quote which said “from elsewhere” is not actually in the book; it’s in the summary on the back cover. Perhaps the summary is not canonical.
-Patur Aval Assur
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI thought of that and it would (albeit dochekly) answer for some of the statements. But there is one statement which says:
“Discworld’s first visitor from elsewhere” [emphasis added]
which is pretty explicitly saying that Twoflower is not from Discworld.
-PAA
Patur Aval AssurParticipantSo therefore?
Therefore, it weakens your case that it is categorically assur.
Why should we Pasken like him???
I never said we should. I said that it’s a machlokes and therefore not as pashut as you made it out yo be.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe Tzlach in his hakdama writes:
?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???
Patur Aval AssurParticipantSo why is Twoflower described as the first tourist to come to Discworld? He should be described as the first tourist to come to Ankh-Morpork.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantJust today someone said to me “you’re so strange.”
Patur Aval AssurParticipant??”? ?”? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????
Patur Aval AssurParticipantWhere do you see such an assumption?
Patur Aval AssurParticipantA definitive statement was issued that it is categorically assur for a woman to not get married. I pointed out that this issur is not mentioned by the Tur nor by the Mechaber, and the Rambam and Rema who do mention it, don’t use the lashon of “assur”. Furthermore the Rambam seems to contradict himself. Of the several proposed resolutions, some of them assume that women are categorically obligated to get married. However, the Ba’er Heitev’s explanation is that it’s an eitza tova, and according to others there are ways of mitigating the issue of chashad (e.g. living at home). Why should I not point this out? If you think we pasken that there is a categorical obligation for a woman to get married then by all means document it.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe Chofetz Chaim also writes about smoking.
See Zachor L’Miriam about halfway into Perek 23
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14237&st=&pgnum=46
And Likutei Amarim about halfway into Perek 13
(Sorry, it’s not on hebrewboks.)
Patur Aval AssurParticipantRegarding R’ Moshe on smoking:
Igros Moshe Yoreh Deiah 2:49
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&pgnum=67
Igros Moshe Choshen Mishpat 2:76
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=921&pgnum=315
In the second one he also talks about eating unhealthy foods.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThere’s a difference. Succah has nothing to do with Birchas Hamazon. Why would it be a bizayon for someone who is patur from Succah to be motzi you in Birchas Hamazon? What I’m saying is that it’s a bizayon for someone whom the Torah does not include in a mitzvah to be motzi someone in that very mitzvah. Even in a specific situation where the man’s chiyuv is only d’rabanan. Because we look at the overall mitzvah.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe comment that Sam2 was originally responding to was:
As far as R’ Aharon Lichtenstein, he is a very nice man, but his arguments are based on feelings, not logic… Rav *******, R. ******, Rav ****, and R. Lichtenstein may all be fine Talmidi Chachamim, but they are no where near being Gedolim. Anyone who believes so certainly has never had a relationship with a Gadol.
Someone was saying that R’ Lichtenstein is not a gadol. Sam2 was trying to show that he is a gadol – he has the greatest iyun in Rishonm. So whether this claim can be supported will determine (according to some) whether R’ Lichtenstein is a gadol.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
The bizayon is that a man is commanded by God to say Birchas Hamazaon (even though in this specific case he is only obligated as a d’rabanan) while a woman is not.
Gamanit:
There are several possible reasons given why the cyiyuv would not be d’oraisa, among them that there are parts of Birchas Hamazon which talk about things which don’t apply to women, such as inheritance of Israel, bris, and Torah.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantApparently I was zocheh to my third subtitle.
February 27, 2015 8:02 am at 8:02 am in reply to: NeutiquamErro's favorite thread with an obscure title #1147609Patur Aval AssurParticipantGringott’s is super secure (second only to Hogwarts according to Hagrid)… And the most secure vaults are opened simply by a goblin’s touch… And goblins can be easily manipulated by the Imperius Curse as Harry brilliantly discovered…
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI agree to that. But it’s because Rashi is learning the braisa in accordance with the view that a woman’s chiyuv is only d’rabanan.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantAgain proving that only people with a P and and A in their name know math
What about
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/parents-and-shidduchim#post-551682 ?
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe bizayon would be like the first half of Rashi – the guy’s an utter failure for not knowing/learning how to bentch.
Your pshat about “mitvos aseh shehazman grama in general” might conceptually be able (to combine with your original suggestion as to the purpose of the braisa) to alleviate (some of) the dochekness pointed out in my original question, but I definitely don’t think that that’s what either Rashi or Tosafos is saying. And also, it would then have nothing to do with Birchas Hamazon. It would simply be that it’s always less than desirable for a woman to be motzi a man by any mitzvah, even when they have the same chiyuv. And why should it be true that having fewer chiyuvim has any relevance?
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI must be really rusty – I messed up the blockquote in this thread also. The end of my previous post should be:
“Where is your home?” he inquired…
“Have you heard of the city of Bes Palargic?… Bes Palargic is the major seaport of the Agatean Empire… You sail turnwise from the Brown Islands for about a week and there it is.”
Yet Twoflower is described as “the first tourist ever to set foot on the Discworld” implying that he is from a different world.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantLet’s backtrack a bit. Let’s assume that a woman’s chiyuv is d’oraisa. Why then is it “??? ????”? She is just as chayev as he is. Ella mai, the “??? ????” is like the first half of Rashi – there is a tayna on the guy for not learning how to bentch. But what about Tosafos who explains and wants to apply Rashi’s second half to the braisa of Birchas Hamazon? So I would say that Tosafos understood that Rashi was explaining the braisa in accordance with the view that a woman’s chiyuv is only d’rabanan. Thus, I would ask my question that if the braisa’s goal was to tell us that a man should know how to bentch, it should have done so without misleadingly paralleling a woman to a katan.
Alternatively, you could explain Rashi’s second half differently from how Tosafos does and say that it’s simply inherently “demeaning” for a woman/katan to be motzi a man, and then combine this with your suggestion that the braisa’s goal is to tell us this.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI had gone too long without an interminable debate with DaasYochid.
And it gives me a jolt of hana’ah that you copied my line:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shout-out-to-sam2#post-549603
Patur Aval AssurParticipantRashi writes:
????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??????
Thus Rashi’s understanding of the braisa is that a woman’s chiyuv of Birchas Hamazon is d’rabanan. We’re supposed to be attempting to read the braisa according to the opinion that a woman’s chiyuv is d’oraisa (or a safek). Rashi’s understanding of “??? ????” by Birchas Hamazon is assuming that women are only d’rabanan.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantRashi doesn’t say it by Birchas Hamazon.
February 27, 2015 5:08 am at 5:08 am in reply to: Why are there approximately as many boys as girls? #1063801Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
I think Lior’s point is that granted over thousands of years it shourd be pretty equal, just like over thousands of coin flips it would probably be relatively equal, but it shouldn’t necessarily be equal in any given period of time, say every year.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantExactly. So who says that it’s a bizayon to have a woman be motzi a man?
February 27, 2015 5:01 am at 5:01 am in reply to: Why are there approximately as many boys as girls? #1063798Patur Aval AssurParticipantChulin 77b:
??? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????
Granted it’s talking about animal there.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantYou might love being distracted but I fear that the topic of the shiur will spark an entirely different debate.
The reason why I think that my source has some validity is that there are not to many people who have intimate knowledge of the levels of Talmudic prowess of the great Rabbis on different sides of the ideological spectrum. People who were talmidim in Ponevezh and in YU’s Gruss Kollel are in a somewhat unique position.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI don’t either; I was bringing a potential source that having many kids is a financial concern.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantWho appointed me Rabbi?
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI know. But his explanation of why it’s a bizayon is that a woman is not chayev. So by Birchas Hamazon, it would only be a bizayon if women are not obligated. Which would the prove that women’s Birchas Hamazon is only d’rabanan.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantLior:
And I am anonymously reporting that R’ Rakeffet said it. So tha’ts another grain. And in Sam2’s response to the challenge (which I didn’t quote) he named three people from whom he heard the claim. So that is Sam2 anonymously reporting something. Add another grain. I was not attempting to definitively prove the claim to be true. I was lending it support by adding a source that is completely separate from Sam2’s sources, saying a very similar claim. I actually would have specified the shiur in which R’ Rakeffet said it, but I have a feeling that people will be distracted by the rest of the shiur.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantApparently, I forgot how to properly blockquote.
The original post should be:
In a certain thread a while back, Sam2 alleged that t is well-accepted by many in the Chareidi world that no one has a greater Iyun in all of Rishonim than R’ Aharon Lichtenstein.
He was subsequently challenged:
I have never ever in the last 30 years heard anyone make the claim that you have made. Can you quote someone who has written or said so? (I just spent about a half hour on line trying to find some words of praise about him from the Chareidi world and found nothing. Not trying to discredit him, G-d Forbid, just trying to see if you know something that I don’t.)
I have found a source for something similar to what Sam2 was alleging:
In a shiur, R’ Aaron Rakeffet said:
I know (from? of?) students of mine who studied in Ponevezh; they told me there’s no one in Ponevezh that comes to R’ Aharon’s bekius (in? of?) Shas and Rishonim.
(The shiur was given 14 years ago.)
Patur Aval AssurParticipantShu”t Ziknei Yehuda siman 3:
???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????
Patur Aval AssurParticipantIf by “What do you want from ‘????” you mean what am I using Tosafos for then I will specify that I am drawing an implication from the words
“????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????” and the words
“???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???”
Patur Aval AssurParticipant??? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ????
I thought I had seen such a pshat but I didn’t remember where.
I can see how using this pshat would make it less dochek. But I still think it’s dochek.
Also, see Tosafos there.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantHealth:
I didn’t say that I don’t know which point(s) you were addressing. I said that what you said didn’t address them.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantMy understanding of the reason why it’s ??? ???? is that the guy is a clown for not knowing how to say Birchas Hamazon. If that is the reason, and the braisa’s goal was to tell us this then the braisa should have just said “??? ???? on someone who isn’t able to bentch himself. Do you have a different understanding of ??? ?????
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThat might be true, but even if it is, you still need to use one of my docheks (or come up with another answer) to explain the parallel between isha and katan.
Welcome back
From where?
February 26, 2015 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm in reply to: PAA's not-always-in-context Coffee Room Report Card Comments #1156723Patur Aval AssurParticipantRegarding one of the quotes from Popa, I had written that the original quote seems to be no longer extant. However, I have since located it:
“…you just like being contrarian.”
(popa_bar_abba)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/techeiles/page/14#post-525063
Also in that same post was:
“PAA, so I used to think you probably knew what you were talking about here regarding the metzius, and sources, etc.”
(popa_bar_abba)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/techeiles/page/14#post-525063
I also found several other quotes that I had not yet posted in this thread:
“Do you read Hebrew or are you just copying and pasting?”
(Ben Levi)
“So do you ever intend on actually reading what I posted?”
(Ben Levi)
“You seem to be having a difficult time understanding that I have no position.”
(Ben Levi)
February 26, 2015 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm in reply to: Totally Random Thread Title Just to Confuse PAA #1061362Patur Aval AssurParticipantExcerpt from a tribute written about R’ Yosef Eliyahu Henkin by a talmid, printed by R’ Henkin’s grandson in B’nei Banim:
????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????”? ?????? ????”? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???”? ?????. ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???
It is interesting because this is in a sense the opposite of the sentiment expressed by R’ Soloveitchik mentioned above.
February 26, 2015 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm in reply to: Anti-Isreal Goyim Yemach Shemom and Anti-Isreal Jews #1061704Patur Aval AssurParticipantIn Tachanun it says “????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????”
????? clearly is referring to to sinners, not sins.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantSo I recently read the first two Discworld books. My reaction is, to quote Aristotle (Metaphysics Book VIII Part Six), “In the case of all things which have several parts and in which the totality is not, as it were, a mere heap, but the whole is something beside the parts, there is a cause; for even in bodies contact is the cause of unity in some cases, and in others viscosity or some other such quality.”
The individual parts of the books were really good, but when put together they didn’t create the magnificent edifice I was expecting. There didn’t seem to be any unified whole. That is not to say that I didn’t like the books; I’ll probably end up reading more of them.
One thing that I’m confused about is that throughout both books it seems as if the Discworld is an entire world and that Twoflower is simply from a different part of the world:
“Where is your home?” he inquired…
“Have you heard of the city of Bes Palargic?… Bes Palargic is the major seaport of the Agatean Empire… You sail turnwise from the Brown Islands for about a week and there it is.”
Yet Twoflower is described as “the first tourist ever to set foot on the Discworld” implying that he is from a different world.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantExcerpt from a tribute written about R’ Yosef Eliyahu Henkin by a talmid, printed by R’ Henkin’s grandson in B’nei Banim:
????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????
???? ????? ?? ????”? ???? ??????? ????”? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ????????
Patur Aval AssurParticipantLeket Yosher Yoreh Deiah p. 37:
??????? ????? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ?”? ???? ????? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????
(referring to the daughter in law of the Terumas Hadeshen)
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49439&st=&pgnum=87
Two letters from Rabbi Joseph Ber Soloveitchik to Rabbi Leonard Rosenfeld:
“Dear Rabbi Rosenfeld,
I acknowledge receipt of your letter. In my answer to your previous inquiry concerning the permissibility of instruction of girls in Talmud I stressed that unless I am assured in advance by the school administration that my recommendations will be followed I would not take the trouble to investigate the matter. Since such an official assurance has been withheld (your letter did not contain any such commitment) I must decline to consider the controversial problem. The reason for my reluctance to engage in this controversial issue is the unique stand taken by many of our Jews on matters of Law and tradition. We have reached a stage at which party lines and political ideologies influence our halakhic thinking to the extent that people cannot rise above partisan issue to the level of Halakhah-objectivity. Some are in a perennial quest for “liberalization” of the Law and its subordination to the majority opinion of a political legislative body, while others would like to see the Halakhah fossilized and completely shut out of life. I am not inclined to give any of these factions an opportunity for nonsensical debates.”
“Dear Rabbi Rosenfeld:
Please accept my apologies for not answering your letters sooner. The delay was due to my overcrowded schedule. As to your question with regard to a curriculum in a coeducational school, I expressed my opinion to you long ago that it would be a very regrettable oversight on our part if we were to arrange separate Hebrew courses for girls. Not only is the teaching of Torah she-be-al peh to girls permissible but it is nowadays an absolute imperative. This policy of discrimination between the sexes as to subject matter and method of instruction which is still advocated by certain groups within our Orthodox community has contributed greatly to the deterioration and downfall of traditional Judaism. Boys and girls alike should be introduced to the inner halls of Torah she-be-al peh.
I hope to prepare in the near future a halakhic brief on the same problem which will exhaust the various aspects of the same. In the meantime I heartily endorse a uniform program for the entire student body.”
Patur Aval AssurParticipantAlso, I forgot to mention that in the future, I think you should mention when the teshuva you’re quoting is by a Modern Orthodox rav, as I’m sure some of us would not give such an opinion as much weight.
While his constituency is largely “Modern Orthodox” I’m not sure he would identify himself as such.
Patur (and anyone else interested), how would you explain this line of the Radak (from your first quote)?
???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???
My question is, how is ????? ??? connected to their wives being beautiful? (It also needs to make sense for ???????? ???? ?????,
unless you want to explain that differently.)… Do you have any more possible explanations, or perhaps a better understanding of one of mine?
Here are two possibilities:
1) ??? is referring to the wives. I know it’s dochek. But see Gittin 58a which says:
??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ??????
Rashi explains:
?????? ????????. ????? ???? ????????? ??? ???????? ?????
The Maharal is even more explicit:
?????? ??’. ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????
I deliberately wrote “Answer 2: They wanted their children to be beautiful and to look like them” with “them” being somewhat ambiguous, to leave open this possibility.
2) ????? ??? doesn’t mean that they will look like them; it means that they will be beautiful just like their fathers were beautiful.
Health:
I don’t see anything in what you wrote that addresses any of my points.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe Tzlach explains that Tosafos is not talking about Yehoshua, and he gives a whole pshat:
???’ ?”? ????? ??? ????? ???’ ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???’ ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???’ ??? ???? ???? ???’ ???”? ???? ????? ????’ ?? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????’ ???? ??? ?????? ???’ ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???”? ????? ????’ ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????’ ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???”? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???”? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???’ ??? ???? ?? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??????”? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???’ ?????? ???’ ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???”?
But I don’t think his pshat fits so well with Tosafos saying that R’ Yochanan had daughters.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantWho here would tell their his to disrobe in public if you discovered that her dress contained a forbidden mixture of wool and linen?
See Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deiah 303:1
????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????
Patur Aval AssurParticipantRegarding bicycles, see Shu”t Eimek Halacha 1:26
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