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Golfer:
R’ Meir was the smartest as per Eruvin 13a:
?”? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????
If we assume that R’ Meir was R’ Elazar Ben Arach, his unique brilliance is further described in Avos 2:8:
??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????
Though apashutayid’s list included Rav Yehuda. He would seem to be referring to ?? ????? not ??? ?????; however, he wrote Rav Meir for ??? ???? thus leaving open the possibility that he was not being so exacting in his lashon, in which case he might have actually meant ??? ?????.
if that is the case then perhaps one could argue that R’ Yehuda himself would not agree that R’ Meir was the most brilliant – he might refer to R’ Meir’s brilliance as argumentativeness as per Kiddushin 52b:
??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?’ ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ????
R’ Chaim Berlin has a teshuva about davening in a Chassidish shul
(???? ???? ??”? ???:? in the edition which I’m quoting from):
??????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???”? ?”? ?? ??’ ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?’ ??????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?”? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????
Don’t get me started on the subject.
Obviously this means that you really do want me to get you started. So tell us – why do you refuse to play keyboard?
In any case, I have tried that with the piano (just playing a song faster), and I actually do find it less moving….does that even make sense??
It’s an experiment, so I can’t really determine whether it makes sense or not.
What kind of accent do you have?
Popa, I think you’re mixing up your homonyms.
In a similar vein to sam4321’s sources, the Chofetz Chaim in Likutei Amarim Perek 5 writes:
???
?????
??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????
[emphasis added]
It fits the tune perfectly. You just have to space it properly. The only part which might not be perfect is the last line and even that can be easily rectified by changing “I’m” to “I am”.
AR (aka DY)
Now I understand why you got thrown out of Brisk? You were probably learning Bava Kamma 11a:
??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ?”? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????
And the oilam was klerring whether it’s a din in the cheftza or the gavra and you said it’s a din in the gavra because ???? rhymes with ????.
I always try so hard to do my very best
but I can’t learn how to play so fast
so why does everyone make fun of me when I walk past
I’m feeling so embarrassed
Rhymes better.
Maybe miles are shorter in magic.
Maybe hours are shorter.
Maybe all the acceleration is in the last second.
My question wasn’t on the acceleration; it was on the practicality of playing quidditch at such high speeds. If they aren’t utilizing the broom’s awesome speed then it kind of defeats the purpose of having such a fast racing broom. Unless there is another sport which is mamesh a flying race.
Maybe they can only sustain the acceleration for a short time like a fraction of a second?
Definitely not mashma that way. However, if you are correct it would explain why over the course of the match they are not actually flying that speedily.
?”? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???’ ???? ?????? ?? ????
??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???’ ???? ???? ?? ?????
??”? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ???
Though I’m not sure that 1/3 of $1000 can actually get you any land, so this might not be applicable.
(This was a serious fashion.)
cozimjewish:
I have an experiment for you to do. Take a slow song which you consider deep, meaningful, and heartfelt, and play it on your keyboard with double the tempo.
(I’m assuming that despite http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-makes-jewish-music-jewish/page/2#post-550736
you still play keyboard based on http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/random-facts-1/page/2#post-538349 )
Let me know if converting the slow song into a fast song divested it of its depth, meaning, and heartfeltness.
For that matter, anyone else can do the experiment also and submit the results.
Is cholent ???? ?? ???? ??????
Why thank you.
I would explain, but I’m afraid it might degenerate into a theological debate.
Nothing against MBD – just I can’t see how any fast songs (no matter whose they are) have depth…..
You gotta listen to some Carlebach.
Well obviously, the Radvaz’s view is only a raya to what he held. It doesn’t necessarily mean that any other rishonim/acharonim agreed with him.
We are told that a firebolt can accelerate from 0-150 MPH in 10 seconds. 150 MPH is 220 Feet Per Second. All the Quidditch matches would be impossible at that speed. I don’t think it ever says how long the pitch is,but we know that the goalposts are 50 feet high. Which means that someone with a firebolt should be able to get from the game-height to the ground in less than a quarter of a second. I don’t think that ever happened. Even taking into account that the dive might be on an angle.
I also enjoyed DY’s refutation of the Radvaz being proof specifically by wine – however it does seem clear its ideal to drink wine.
I don’t think he refuted it. The Radvaz was only a raya that the ikkar is with wine, not that you’re not yotzei with other alcohol. And I think it’s still a raya to that.
cozimjewish:
The same way I was head of production and head of chessed not too much.
To maximize you’re chances at BJJ, you should demonstrate broad knowledge on the subject of hidden haskalic tendencies of accepted rabbinic authorities.
It’s actually a geshmak dissertation (though I haven’t finished it yet so this comment is subject to change).
Turns out I had already insulted Popa’s math skills several months earlier:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/good-jokes/page/33#post-536673
You think you can predict my reaction twice?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/good-jokes/page/33#post-536677
And who might that be?
Though unless something changed in the two+ years since http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/in-witch-he-snorted#post-435038 you won’t get it.
No, when she says “good” she means “power” and when she says “evil” she means “those too weak to seek it”.
?? ??? ????
(An excerpt of) Her explanation is:
Slight tangent:
I saw someone suggest that ?????? doesn’t mean to become drunk; it means to become perfumed.
mw13:
I’m not saying that the Rishonim don’t mean what they said. What they said is in effect “We pasken in accordance with Rava’s statement”. But as we see from the other rishonim, Rava’s statement doesn’t necessarily mean what you think it means at first glance.
So what do you propose regarding the Shulchan Aruch? Do you think he forgot what he wrote in the Beit Yosef? Do you think he changed his mind? (It’s interesting that the Pri Megadim in Klalim B’hora’as Issur V’heter discusses how to pasken when someone contradicts himself from one sefer to another, yet when it comes to R’ Yosef Karo all he says is that the Shulchan Aruch was written after the Bedek Habayit.)
Also, do you grant my point that the Shulchan Aruch was not written to be the first and last word on a topic? If you don’t, then I’ll quote again:
If you do grant it, then it is obvious that when reading the Shulchan Aruch, you have to take into account what he said in the Beit Yosef.
In sum, I don’t see a reason to manufacture a stira when there is a simple explanation.
It’s more than merely “some form of drinking”; category two typically would be reaching the point of some form of drunkenness.
Some of them, definitely. But my point was just to go against k’pshuto. If I want to discuss the exact level of drinking/drunkenness, I might need a few more than three categories.
I understood you were being sarcastic. But even your use of sarcasm gives an indication of inclination.
I’m sure there are people with an agenda to eradicate drunkenness. I’m also sure there are people with an agenda to promote drunkenness.
It is somewhat analogous to a Brisker or BMG talmud citing Rabbi Kook or Rabbi JB Soloveitchik for halachic support. RMK was about as far on the right side of the spectrum as any posek (i.e. see his positions regarding mesira.) In any event, that was just a cutesy comment.
1) R’ Soloveitchik would consider himself be a Brisker. But I know what you meant.
2) I figured that the chiddush was that someone like me would quote someone like R’ Menashe Klein. But I wasn’t sure why you think I’m too far to the left to quote him.
BTW, unless you are Sephardic why do you use non-Ashkenazic Hebew pronunciations (such as your referring to the “Beit” Yosef)?
I think you will find that the vast majority of my posts are written with Ashkenazic pronunciations. The Beit Yosef is an exception. Whether or not I am Sephardic, R’ Yosef Karo was definitely Sephardic and therefore he most certainly named his sefer “Beit Yosef” and not “Beis Yosef”. Similarly, if I have a friend who pronounces her name RA-chel, I would call her RA-chel even if I would normally pronounce it Ra-CHEL.
Why are you grouping categories two and three together when it would be more logical to group categories one and two together?
The way I choose to group them is dependent on what point I’m trying to make. Here, the point I was trying to make was that there is an extreme dearth of sources that understand Rava k’pshuto and hold of it l’halacha. If I was trying to point out that there are many sourses which hold of some form of drinking then I would in fact group category two with category one.
Why would they unclearly quote Rava’s lashon verbatim without further elucidation if they didn’t mean it in the simple sense?
Why did Rava quote Rava’s lashon verbatim without further elucidation if he didn’t mean it in the simple sense? Also, poskim have a proclivity for using the exact language of the Gemara (or earlier rishonim). Open to any siman in Shulchan Aruch and you’ll find verbatim quotes of the Gemara/Rambam/Tur etc.
Oh good. Now I can tell everyone that they shouldn’t get drunk because…
Ah! This is the problem – that people arguing against Purim drunkenness are often coming with an agenda as their starting point. They want to assur drunkenness on Purim and then go looking for shittos for fit that goal. And many even get upset at you merely for pointing out all the many valid shittos insisting on the halachic requirement to get drunk and all the real examples of contemporary and historic vintage of great and regular yiddden appropriately fulfilling this halacha by getting drunk on Purim.
I was being sarcastic. I highly doubt DaasYochid would accept such a claim.
BTW, it was worth starting this thread if for nothing else than to have you cite Rav Menashe Klein zt’l.
I can’t think of anything in the teshuva that is so noteworthy as to justify starting this thread. So I assume you mean the fact that I cited specifically R’ Menashe Klein. Which leads me to wonder what is so special about that.
The Ralbag in today’s parsha writes:
???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????
Also, I will address some questions on me that I never got around to addressing:
The gemorrah in yevamos could have said that a single man is like a woman. Instead it says he is not a man.
The same reason why the Torah says ????? ???? instead of ???.
BelieveYou Me:
The answer to your question is that Shevet Levi is a separate category. Though they are Jewish, they are not called ?????. Now you might ask that in the same way, women, even though they are not called ?????, can be like Shevet Levi. To that I would respond that the Rambam (Hilchos Shemita V’yovel 13:13) writes:
??? ??? ??? ???? ???
?? ??? ????
??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?’ ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?’ ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????
As you can see from the words I bolded, the Rambam is explicitly excluding women from being like Shevet Levi.
To defend the ???”?: the ????? ?????? is not in any way clearly against ????? (e.g. see ???),
so the ??”? should have been more clear.
If anything I would say it’s a kashya on the Beit Yosef for not saying which of the positions to follow. But one thing is clear from the Beit Yosef – he is coming to limit the drukenness.
Oh good. Now I can tell everyone that they shouldn’t get drunk because Rabban Gamliel held like Rabbeinu Ephraim.
Not a raya, because we don’t know how he understood the implied exclusion of ??? ?? ????.
The Radvaz is entertaining the possibility that despite a neder against wine, the guy can still drink it for Purim. If whiskey is just as good as wine, why would the fact that the wine is being used for a mitzva override the neder?
I agree that the Radvaz is not a raya that wine is meakeiv. But then again, nothing is meakeiv you hold ????? ??? ???????.
But mistama Rabban Gamliel knew the reason why we drink wine. So if the reason was that there was a nes to make the bedika not work then Rabban Gamliel should have known that without a nes it would work.
I think it would be a raya that the Radvaz held that lechatchila the mitzva is with wine.
I’m not ????? to the ???? from ???”?. You can be ???? ????? with ??? also. ??? ???, if the ??? doesn’t include ??? ?? ????, than if ????? you used ??? for ????? (or ?????) it’s considered ??? ?? ????.
But you can only use ??? if you have no ???. If they were equivalent than the neder would also forbid him from drinking kiddush wine.
From a shikur last night. Nice pshat, though.
But I’m not sure it fits with Kesubos 10b where Rabban Gamliel wasn’t sure that it works.
PAA, shkoyach.
Your welcome.
How davka do we need to imitate the nes? How old was the wine? Was it white or red? Dry or sweet? Which grape variety?
Exactly. So it would be arbitrary to extend it to whiskey but not LSD. Now it might also be arbitrary to extend it from Puglia Malvasia to Cream Red Concorde. Although I have an easier time categorizing all wine in the same category than all mind-alterers in the same category.
Interesting p’shatim. (I still don’t see a raya from the lashon of the rishonim.)
True, none of them explicitly say that you’re not yotzei with other forms of alcohol, but if you agree with http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/for-pulsing-flower-to-rant-about-iyun/page/2#post-523393 then you have to ask yourself why Rashi (and others) added the word ????. And the raya from the Radvaz seems pretty shtark, though that obviously doesn’t speak for the rishonim.
I heard a third p’shat, that Achasveirosh used ????? ???? and it failed, b’derech nes, with Esther.
Do you remember where you heard that?
Anyhow, I know of big people who used whiskey or gave it out for the mitzvah, but I guess there is a hiddur in using wine.
Well there are other rishonim who don’t mention wine.
mw13:
The way I see it there are three categories:
1) understand Rava ?????? and accept it ?????
2) understand Rava not ?????? and accept it ?????
3) don’t accept Rava ?????
(There is really another category which holds ????? ??? ????, but that can technically be consistent with all three categories.)
Within category two there can be huge range regarding how much you have to drink. My original point in this thread was that the vast majority of rishonim/acharonim fall into categories two and three.
I also think that when it comes to anyone who just quoted Rava’s lashon, we can’t know what there exact position is. The most we can know is that they brought down Rava’s statement ????? so they are not in category three. But we don’t know how they understood Rava’s statement. As far as I know there is not even one rishon who accepts Rava ????? and explicitly states that it’s ??????.
Regarding the position of R’ Yosef Karo:
I don’t think youare remembering correctly. In the Beit Yosef he quotes three positions – Tosafos (which I would put in category two), Rabbeinu Ephraim, and the Orchos Chaim (that there is no greater aveira than drunkenness). The only one of these which the Shulchan Aruch excludes is the second one. In other words, all we see from the Shulchan Aruch is that he accepts Rava’s statement as halacha, but there is no reason to assume that he doesn’t understand it like Tosafos or the Orchos Chaim.
The Aruch Hashulchan’s whole kashya is that if R’ Karo holds like the Orchos Chaim, ??? ??? ????? ??”? ????? ??”? ?????? ???? ????? ?????
I answered this question above by pointing out that R’ Karo took it for granted that you wouldn’t pasken just from reading the Shulchan Aruch without going through the sugya or at least reading the Beit Yosef.
DaasYochid:
Rashi defines ??????? as ?????? ????.
Several acharonim explain that the reason for this mitzva is that the Purim story came about through Achashverosh drinking wine. Thus it would make sense that the mitzva is davka wine. If you want to extend it to all alcohol, since it has the same effect of ?? ??? ???, one could then argue hat the mitzva can be fulfilled via drugs that get you to such a state. Similarly, the Seder Hayom we discussed earlier suggests that the reason for the mitzva is ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ????. So if someone injects themselves with beta-blockers, slowing down his heart and simulating death, would he be yotzei?
That aside, R’ Menasheh Klein discusses this exact issue. In Mishneh Halachos 5:83 he writes:
????? ????? ????? ??”? ????? ?? ?’ ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??”? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ?? ???? ????? ??’ ????? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???’ ???”? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???’ ??? ????? ??? ??? ???”? ???”? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ???’ ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???’ ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??????
??? ????? ?? ????”? ?”? ?????? ??”? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????”? ?”? ??’ ??”? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?”? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??’ ??”? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???’ ??’ ???? ????? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ??”? ??”? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??”? ????? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? ??”? ??? ????? ??? ????”? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????
????? ???? ??? ???”? ??”? ??????? ???? ?????? ??”? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??’ ?”? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?”? ???”? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?”? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??”? ?”? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??”? ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ???”? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ?”? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????
????? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ????”? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????”? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????