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May 27, 2014 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045779Patur Aval AssurParticipant
Pele Yoetz (Section entitled Girsa)
????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????,??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? (????? ???? ???? ?????) ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Worse case scenario, they’re wrong, and when the beis din shel maalah asks us, we did all we can.”
Who says that following them (in a situation where you have reason to believe that their advice is not the best course of action) is the best we can do?
May 27, 2014 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045776Patur Aval AssurParticipantIs it just me or do quotes from seforim take an awfully long time to be moderated?
It’s just you. 😉
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Patur-I am glad you have aspirations. How are they coming along all this time later?”
Well I got sidetracked by someone who wanted to talk about iyun vs. bekius.
May 27, 2014 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045775Patur Aval AssurParticipantMaharsha Bava Metzia 85a
???”? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ??????
Obviously there is a place for pilpul as the Maharsha himself writes (Shabbos 31a)
????? ?????. ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????
May 27, 2014 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045774Patur Aval AssurParticipantAlso from the Chayei Adam (Hakdama Acharona)
???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????
By the way, readers should look up my sources because I cannot type out the whole context. It takes long enough just to type out the actual quote.
May 27, 2014 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045773Patur Aval AssurParticipantChayei Adam (Hakdama Acharona)
???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ???????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??????
May 27, 2014 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045772Patur Aval AssurParticipantR’ Yisrael Salanter (see Ohr Yisrael Iggeres 27) talks about the importance of both broad bekius and knowing how to be ????? ????? but again he doesn’t say that you should engage in such dialectics without a broad knowledge base. In fact although he does not directly discuss which one takes precedence, he does list bekius first which in turn is based on the fact that the Gemara in kiddushin lists ???? ?? ??? ???? (bekius) before ???? ?????? (pilpul/charifus).
May 27, 2014 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045771Patur Aval AssurParticipant??? ?????? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ???? (?? ????? ?? ????) ???”? ?????
(Hakdama to the Maadnei Yom Tov/Pilpula Charifta
May 27, 2014 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045770Patur Aval AssurParticipantMore sources:
??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? – ?????? ?????, ???? ?????
(Shabbos 63a)
?????? ?????. ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????
???? ?????. ?????. ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????
???????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???
(Rashi there)
May 27, 2014 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045769Patur Aval AssurParticipant“The gemara in sotah(daf 6a or so) says you are supposed to have an eighth of an eighth of gaava. The rambam also paskens this way. This is clearly less.”
The Rambam also says that gaavah is the one midah where you have to go ?? ??? ??????
May 27, 2014 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045768Patur Aval AssurParticipant“I don’t chap why patur and pulsing feel the need to disparage an entire system of learning and all the big talmidei chachomim who are a part of it. Why do you have to be whiny? Patur- you are clearly a talmid chochom, so go teach shiurim and chaburos instead of posting here and criticizing other peoples’ talmud torah. Or at least, post divrei torah here, not random seforim backing up your complaints against Klal Yisroel.”
As far as I know I did not disparage anyone or any method. However, a different poster disparaged a method of learning and those who learn it, using such words as “stupid” “krum” and “against the mesorah”. I am merely bringing sources to justify this method and its adherents. If someone who learns a different method feels disparaged simply by seeing the sources then I can’t help that.
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Progress for progress’s sake must be discouraged, for our tried and tested traditions often require no tinkering”
– Professor Dolores Jane Umbridge AKA the guy who always yells “Mesorah”
May 27, 2014 4:15 am at 4:15 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045763Patur Aval AssurParticipantAlso see the Medrash Mishlei (quoted by the Biur Halacha in siman 155) as to how G-d will take you to task for every part of Torah that you did not learn. However perhaps one can be rescued by Berachos 5b
??? ???? ??
???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???
????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???
?????
Patur Aval AssurParticipantPopa:
Do you believe that it is forbidden to act stricter than the Torah?
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“And it would be a good idea for people to ask those with greater Torah knowledge to share how the Torah wants us to behave in various life situations”
Indeed. But does that mean that what they say is definitively how the Torah wants us to behave?
May 27, 2014 3:41 am at 3:41 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045755Patur Aval AssurParticipantR’ Aharon Yehuda Leib Shteinman:
“Over the past number of years, a trend has developed in yeshivos to learn just a few dafim of gemara over an entire year. This is due to the great amount of time spent on unnecessary probing, and it leads to a lack of Torah knowledge. The senior roshei yeshiva have already expressed their disappointment with this system, yet, unfortunately, the situation has not improved Today, even the mesivtos only cover a very limited number of dafim each year. Young talmidim should try their utmost to use the years of their youth, the prime years to grow in Torah learning, to acquire vast amounts of knowledge. They should learn much Gemara, Rashi, and Tosafos, together with no more than a limited number of Rishonim and the key Acharonim [all the while making sure they understand the material well]. May Hashem guide us in the proper path to make the Torah great and glorify it.”
May 27, 2014 3:28 am at 3:28 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045754Patur Aval AssurParticipant“I remember a pamphlet coming out a while back from R Binyamin Fuerst with haskomos from basically all of the gedolim of the time advocating a change in the system to include more bekius”
I think his name is actually R’ Shimon Fuerst. It’s called Tenu Kavod Latorah and he says that every bachur has to learn at least 100 blatt per half year.
May 27, 2014 3:06 am at 3:06 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045753Patur Aval AssurParticipant“I give you permission to be a baal gaava”
?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???
which would make you an inciter to avoda zara (sort of)
May 27, 2014 2:54 am at 2:54 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045752Patur Aval AssurParticipantPulsing Flower:
So far everything I quoted was from previous knowledge (although I had to refind them to quote them exactly). Some I typed out while some I copied from hebrewbooks. (The statements of R’ Chevroni and R’ Shach are brought down in Hadran Alach but I had seen them a year or two ago.)
May 27, 2014 2:48 am at 2:48 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045750Patur Aval AssurParticipant??? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????, ??? ???
????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ?????
????? ??? ??????? ????? ????, ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????
????? ??? ????? ???? ?????.
(R’ Elazar Menachem Man Shach)
May 27, 2014 2:47 am at 2:47 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045749Patur Aval AssurParticipant??? ???? ?????
??? ??????? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ??????, ?????? ???
????? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ????’ ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??
????? ????’ ??? ????? ???”? ????”? ????????? ??? ??????
????? ?? ?”?. ??”? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??
????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????
(R’ Elazar Menachem Man Shach)
May 27, 2014 2:41 am at 2:41 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045748Patur Aval AssurParticipant???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????, ?????
?????? ?? ????.
???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???????
???? ??? ?? ?????
(R’ Moshe Chevroni, Rosh Yeshiva of Chevron, lamenting today’s style of learning)
Patur Aval AssurParticipantSo people have Torah knowledge. O.k. So it would be a good idea for people to ask those with Torah knowledge to share what the Torah says with those who do not have (as much) Torah knowledge.
May 27, 2014 2:16 am at 2:16 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045746Patur Aval AssurParticipantAnd as R’ Shmuel Maltzan adds in the he’aros there:
??”? ???? ??”? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ???”? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ????
May 27, 2014 2:04 am at 2:04 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045745Patur Aval AssurParticipant????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? (??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ???) ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???????
(Gra as quoted in Even Shelaima 8:2)
May 27, 2014 1:52 am at 1:52 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045744Patur Aval AssurParticipantFor instance Rabbeinu Yonah (Avos 4:5) writes ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? but he doesn’t say that you should spend your time on this before you have any breadth of knowledge.
May 27, 2014 1:41 am at 1:41 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045743Patur Aval AssurParticipant???? ???. ???? ?? ????
????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??
????: ????? ????. ????? ???????
????? ????? ?????? ??????
????? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ???
???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???
???? ???? ???? ???? ???
?????? ??????? ????? ?????
??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????
(????? ?? ?:) ???? ?? ?????
??? ???????? ??? ???? ???
(Rashi Avodah Zarah 19a)
Patur Aval AssurParticipantHow are you defining Daas Torah?
May 26, 2014 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045732Patur Aval AssurParticipantThank you PulsingFlower for the compliment.
May 26, 2014 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045729Patur Aval AssurParticipantRegarding Tosafos Harosh:
????? ????’ ???”? ????? ????’ ??
??? ???”? ??? ?? ?????? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????’ ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???”?
(From R’ Dovid Sinzheim, Sheva Chakiros
1745-1812)
May 26, 2014 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045725Patur Aval AssurParticipantAnd to clarify again, I am not telling you how you should learn, I am simply showing that the “krum stupid posters who go against mesorah” actually do have basis for the way they learn.
May 26, 2014 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045724Patur Aval AssurParticipant“I am not arguing iyun vs bekiyus, they are both very important, I don’t feel I am on a madreiga to decide which one is “better”.”
I don’t feel that I am on a madreiga to decide which is beter either. But I can point you to sources who discuss it. Let’s put it this way: Can you provide any source in the Gemara, Rishonim, or Acharonim which says that one should make his main focus iyun when he does not yet have bekius? If you can do both simultaneously (i.e. serious iyun while still covering a lot of ground) then that is great. But I don’t think that is the metzius we are discussing.
May 26, 2014 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045721Patur Aval AssurParticipant“And as pulsing flower said, the tosefos harash is not just a “better writer” than tisefos. That’s ridiculous. Top think rishonim are just wasting their time is basically apikorses.”
I never said that I agree with PulsingFlower on everything. I also don’t think that PulsingFlower thinks that Rishonim were wasting their time.
May 26, 2014 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045720Patur Aval AssurParticipantthe Plumber:
“There is no possible discussion for daas torah, it is right, if you don’t believe that, I don’t know what to tell you.”
I’m not arguing whether it is right or not (at least not yet). But can you define it for me?
Regarding the Orchos Tzadikim, which part of ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???
??????? ??????? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???
?????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ???’ ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??????
??? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????
?? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??????
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???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???
was unclear?
May 26, 2014 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045715Patur Aval AssurParticipant“There is something called daas torah, which you don’t have. The way we are doing things does have it.”
If you want to talk about Daas Torah, we should probably start a new thread.
May 26, 2014 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045714Patur Aval AssurParticipant“I’m not arguing the point if bekiyus vs iyun. I’m arguing that diyukim in rishonim and achronim are within our mesorah. Saying otherwise is basically admitting you are an am haaretz, which I have no doubt you obviously are.”
By definition you are arguing the point of iyun vs. bekius because every moment spent doing one is a moment not spent doing the other. Now I have no problem with making diyukim in Rishonim and acharonim. But if you spend the majority of your learning time doing that you will never get anywhere and you won’t know anything. I have personally seen people hocking for a long time on these things when the it’s an explicit gemara one page away.
See the quotes that I have posted. The Gemara is very clear. You are supposed to first gain a breadth of knowledge before deep iyun. The Orchos Tzadikim and Maharal are even more clear. See what I posted about R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky and how they used to learn in Europe. I have no problem if people want to revamp the system. But when there are people who are learning the way the Gemara,Rishonim, and Acharonim describe, and you call them krum and stupid and against the mesorah…
May 26, 2014 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045710Patur Aval AssurParticipantR’ Yaakov also said “It was impossible to catch any of the 300 rabbanim in Lithuania on any Gemara passage in Shas: one was more lamdan and one less, but not knowing a gemara…!”
R’ Shurin told R’ Yaakov that his Rebbi said that only the prodigies in Slabodka could maintain such a pace, and that if one had to make a choice between broad knowledge and lomduth, the latter took primacy. R’ Yaakov responded “? ???? ???? ? ???? ???? how can one say a ???? without knowing gemara?!”
R’ Mordechai Shain quoted from R’ Yaakov “We learned and we reviewed. We sought to know what the gemara was saying, not to find problems”
(Also from R’ Nathan Kamenetzky)
May 26, 2014 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045709Patur Aval AssurParticipantIn Slabodka:
“Half of each day would be devoted to iyyun (in-depth research) which covered approximately 75 gemara dappim (folios) during each term, and the other half was utilized for gaining general knowledge in the Talmud and Codes.”
R’ Yitchak Shurin discussed with his grandfather (R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky) the change in how Yeshivos learn today in which they do far fewer blatt. R’ Yaakov responded “In my day, we believed that Aba’yeh and Rava were right. If we did not comprehend for the moment the reason behind what they said, we left it for the next time we would learn Shas. Nowadays we are all scientists, and our minds must test the flawlessness of each argument in the gemara as soon as it is presented. Is it a wonder that we stay on one page for so long?”
(Quotes written by by R’ Nathan Kamenetzky)
May 26, 2014 4:35 am at 4:35 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045705Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe Gemara clearly states that Sinai is better than Oker Harim. It’s a machlokes between the Pri Megadim and R’ Shlomo Kluger in O.C. 136 whether that is still true, due to the proliferation of sefarim.
May 26, 2014 4:32 am at 4:32 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045703Patur Aval AssurParticipant?? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????
(Eruvin 48a)
?? ???
??????? ???? ???. ????? ???? ??
?? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???
?????
(Rashi there)
May 26, 2014 4:29 am at 4:29 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045702Patur Aval AssurParticipantRead the Pele Yoetz asupah, girsa, and limud.
Read the Chofetz Chaim Likutei Amarim perek 4-5.
May 26, 2014 4:14 am at 4:14 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045701Patur Aval AssurParticipantIn case my quote of the Orchos Tzadikim never gets through here is the link to heebrewbooks
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38360&st=&pgnum=161
read until the end of the shaar.
May 26, 2014 4:05 am at 4:05 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045698Patur Aval AssurParticipantthe Plumber:
Read the Orchos Tzadikim Shaar Hatorah (I posted excerpts but they didn’t get approved yet).
Read the Maharal Tiferes Yisrael perek 56.
Read the Hakdama to the Chayei Adam.
Read R’ Shach’s writings.
And more…
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThere are definitely amudim that I chazer in under five minutes.
May 26, 2014 3:09 am at 3:09 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045693Patur Aval AssurParticipantcontinued:
??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????????
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May 26, 2014 3:08 am at 3:08 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045692Patur Aval AssurParticipantcontinued:
?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???
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May 26, 2014 2:59 am at 2:59 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045690Patur Aval AssurParticipantExcerpts from the Orchos Tzadikim’s rant:
????
???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????
??? ???????? ?????? ???????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???
???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????. ????
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May 26, 2014 2:52 am at 2:52 am in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045688Patur Aval AssurParticipantThere is a place for Iyun, but not at the expense of bekius.
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Patur Aval AssurParticipantI started a new thread to discuss iyun.
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