“As for bal tosif which was brought up in the other thread, i am willing to argue that point”

There are two seperate potential bal tosifs: 1)If it’s not real Techeiles 2)If you have extra techeiles strings. Which one do you want to talk about?

(By the way this thread has been very lonely without you. As you can see I’ve been talking to myself for a while.)

But that’s not relevant because Tosafos’s next step is addressing daughters whereas the Bach brings in Yehoshua in the step that’s talking about sons.

HolyMoe:

This is the first I’m hearing about it and it does sound odd that for thirty years no one noticed this.

son:

Ready when you are.

He says it’s for kids and for chazara so that you will have all of halacha at your fingertips. That does not necessarily mean that it is meant to be a primary source.

Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv:

“Contemporary yeshivos typically delve into the first part of the masechta they are studying and do not complete it. Rav Elyashiv was diametrically opposed to this. He learned and reviewed every masechta methodically from cover to cover in that way acquiring his incredible proficiency in the entire Torah. He wouldn’t learn in a cursory manner without delving into each sugya; he learned every page of Gemara in depth. When studying the Gemara and the Rishonim, Rav Elyashiv would investigate every facet of the concepts and determine the practical halachic position of each Rishon’s explanation as it compared to and contrasted with those of the other Rishonim. In fact, when he studied any Rishon or Acharon, he would not continue to another sugya until he had analyzed their respective approaches, from the underlying principles all the way to the practical halacha.”

(Artscroll Biography)

“What you’re talking about is a personal svara, and until they speak to a rav to make sure their svara isn’t flawed, they cannot and don’t pasken.”

Where did I mention a personal sevara?

“How can you pasken from the Aruch Hashulchan’s quote not to pasken from The shulchan aruch?”

I’m not PASKENING from the Aruch Hashulchan. I’m just pointing out that having commentaries on the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t solve the problem.

I’ll give an example where if you just read the Sh”a and Mishna Berura without background knowledge,you may end up with the wrong halacha: The Sh”a says (O.C. 9:5) that some say that the tzitzis have to be the same color as the begged. The Rema argues that Ashkenazim should only make white strings regardless of the color of the begged. The Mishna Berura brings down the suggestion of the acharonim that in order to avoid this machlokes one should only wear a white begged with white strings.

Now let’s say that one is deciding whether to wear Techeiles or not. Someone who only learned the Sh”a and Mishna Berura will say (and I’ve heard many people say this) that on the chance that it’s not real techeiles, they will be wearing a white begged with blue strings, in violation of the Sh”a, the Rema, AND the Mishna Berura.

However, if the person had started with the gemara, he would know that the gemara says that even kala ilan (fake techeiles) is no worse than white strings and therefore there would be no problem. AAAIII, the Sh”a says it is a problem! Well if this person would know even more gemara, he would know that the reason why the colors would have to be the same is because the strings have to be min knaf* which doesn’t apply to techeiles strings. While you won’t find this in the Sh”a/ Mishna Berura, you can find it in the Artzos Hachaim, the Chazon Ish, and other more obscure places that this person who learns Sh”a with Mishna Berura won’t see.

*According to Tosafos the reason for the colors being the same is zeh keli veanveihu which would also clearly not apply to the techeiles strings which won’t be the same color as the begged even if it’s real techeiles. (There are those [the Smag as explained by the Chazon Ish, and presumably the Levush) who hold that when you don’t have techeiles, the strings that would have been techeiles take on the status of regular non-techeiles strings, but there’s no problem because they also hold that there is no inyan in the first place of having the colors be the same)

“Patur: Reading what you posted, it would seem to me that the issue of paskening from the sh”a is not a question of whether the sh”a is right, rather it’s a matter of applying the correct laws of the sh”a without the proper background knowledge.”

The second issue definitely. As for whether the Sh”a is right, I think a better way to say it would be whether the Sh”a’s METHODOLOGY is right.

Also, I already posted earlier R’ Yaakov’s explanation for the change in learning.

“And yet their lesser peers, who worship their every word, oddly enough did not change the way their yeshivos learn! And wait – in their OWN Yeshivos it’s not so much different. Hmn…”

While it is not my job to justify why people don’t follow the Roshei Hayshiva, I would venture to postulate that there is simple reason: The style of Iyun is enjoyable – klerring chakiros and zugging chiddushim. It is stimulating and does not particularly require being ???? ????. Whereas gaining and retaining broad knowledge of shas is tedious, hard, repetitive, and requires extreme diligence. It is therefore much easier and geshmak to learn Iyun.

“no lets keep this going it’s loads of fun@!”

It would be more fun if there would be someone arguing back at me.

Of particular interest are the claims

“just about every yeshiva’s mesorah”

“every big rosh yeshiva in the nation”

when we see what five of the leading Roshei Yeshivos of their generations actully had to say on the matter.

Chofetz Chaim (Likutei Amarim perek 5)

??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????

There is a story in the biography of R’ Baruch Ber in which as a young child he asked a question in shiur which the Gemara later in that masechta addresses. The Rebbe berated him for asking a question that was a befairush gemara. R’ Baruch Ber went home and cried and took upon himself to not go back to shiur until he had learned all of Shas, which he then did.

Back to the sources:

??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????

??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????

(Sanhedrin 42a)

?????? ?? ???? – ???????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??

(Rashi there)

Well the Orchos Tzadikim (last paragraph of shaar hagaava) seems to say that you only have to go ?? ??? ?????? until you uproot the midah and then you can fall back the ??? ????????.

Back to Bekius vs Iyun, should the Defense rest its case or need more evidence be brought?