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splenda:
That is precisely why I inserted the words “generally speaking” in parentheses. A stam girsa is not suspected of being wrong. Whereas the number of integral aspects of Judaism that were lost over the course of the oral transmission is too numerous to enumerate.
I think the kal vachomer is that looking at clothes is ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? and women who are ?????? ???? ?????? is even more ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? therefore it is surely assur.
“Those who merit being FFB have more time in their lives to do mitzvos. BTs can never catch up.”
“yeah im sorry wanderingchana but that is not the case! there is the chazal that a tzaddik can never stand in a place a baal teshuva can stand.”
It’s actually a raging machlokes amongst the commentators as to what that statement means. The Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva 7:4) seems to understand it literally – ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???
The Orchos Tzadikim (end of Shaar Hateshuva) says almost word for word what the Rambam says.
However, Rabbeinu Yonah (Avos 3:16) explains it oppositely – ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?????
Similarly the Maharsha (Berachos 34b) says ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ???????? ??? ?”? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??”? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??”? ??? ????”? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???”? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???”?
The Kli Yakar (Bamidbar 19:21) has an entirely different understanding -??? ?????? ??? ????? ??”? (????? ?? ?) ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??????, ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? (???? ? ??) ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????
“Nobody said that a written source has no validity, we’re just arguing that an unwritten one can, too. What do we do when there’s a conflict between written sources?”
The difference between a conflict amongst written sources and a conflict between written sources and oral sources is that (generally speaking) if you see a written source from rishonim for example, you can be confident that you have in front of you the opinion of the rishonim. But when your source is oral, there is a very good chance that over the hundreds of years, something was lost/added/mixed up as indeed has happened to many things.
“You have not given me a source that one must make sure that one’s clothing does not cause hirhurim & histaklus in some men. It is not the woman’s fault if some (or even many or most) men are twisted (starts with a P).”
Not sure if this is what you want – Orchos Tzadikim Shaar Hagaveh:
??? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???, ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ??
More on Daas Torah – R’ Mordechai Gifter:
“This is what we call daas Torah, meaning that the judgement of the person who studies is united with the mystery of Torah. It is this daas Torah that the great figures of all generations are privileged to have. By means of this daas Torah, the great men of Torah actually see what others, at best know but do not see. The great Torah leaders are granted a ‘visual sense’ from the world of the Torah’s mystery, the world of eternity,at a time when smaller people understand and feel everything only according to our small world, the revealed world.
Woe to those who pose questions in the name of Torah – sincerely or insincerely – to the Torah greats, to the point where they ask, ‘Who appointed them gedolim that we must obey them?’ Such people would reduce Torah authority to the miniscule dimension of an appointment or position. Not only do the Torah giants understand wisdom, they see deeply in wisdom, as Shlomo HaMelech said, ‘Velibi ra’ah harbeh chochmah – My heart saw much wisdom'”
“PAA, when Poskim realize that there is absolutely no justification for it and they dub it a Minhag Shtus”
Which presumably they do based on sources. Which was basically my original contention – that sources can be used to evaluate a mesorah.
So how do you know when it’s right and when it’s wrong?
So if someone claims something as a mesorah is there any way to disqualify him/it?
What would you say if there is a matter where the debate is whether or not there is such a mesorah? If the side arguing that there is no mesorah brings sources that are against the position being argued by the side that is claiming mesorah, can that be mevarer whether there actually was such a mesorah?
“is it worth your tefilla?”
You seem to be assuming that using tefilla for sports is a waste of your tefilla usage.
See the Maharsha in Kiddushin 29b who clearly assumes that if you are granted something via tefilla it doesn’t use anything up:
?”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ????? ????? ??”? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??”? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ???”?
“Yiddishkeit isn’t only about debate, it’s about the truth.
Someone on this site once claimed that R’ Moshe was not really mattir shaving, v’ho raya, it’s not writen in a teshuvah. I might never be able to convince him, but he’s still wrong.”
I completely agree. I’m just pointing out that it doesn’t help anyone besides yourself.
“Yiddishkeit isn’t only about debate, it’s about the truth, whether or not I can link to it on Hebrewbooks.org.”
That might work for someone who is already convinced that his position is correct. But if you are trying to demonstrate the wrongness of someone’s position, simply saying that he is wrong/against the mesorah is not going to get you too far (especially if the opposition is quoting sources).
“I heard in a Shiur, never saw inside, that Reb Ashtori Haparchi says that there are things which we do that are Neged Hatlmud. Living in Mitzraim is one of them. Maybe PAA will get us the pertinent quote.”
Thanks for the vote of confidence. However, the only statement of his about living in Mitzraim that I know of is in Kaftor Vaferach Perek 5:
[?????? ????? ???? ??? ??]
????? ??? ????? ????????? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ???? (??????? ??, ?) ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? (????? ??, ?) ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???’ ???? ??????? ??? ?????
???? ?”? (?, ?) ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???’ ??? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? (?”? ?, ?) ?????? ???
??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?”? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??”? ???”? ?????”? ?”? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? (?”? ??, ?) ??????? ?”? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? (????? ??, ??) ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? (???? ??, ?) ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?”? (??, ?) ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???
And the Rashba Bava Basra 144b:
??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????
Sam2:
Maseches Soferim 14:18:
??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????
See also Teshuvas HaRosh 55:10 who says:
??? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? [?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????] ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??’ ?? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??”? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ??’ ?????? ?????? [????] ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??????? [?? ???] ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???’ ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???’ ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?”? ???????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???????? ???”? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??”?
“Compare how similar the baalei tosafos are with each other, as opposed to with the Chachmei Sefared, for instance, and vice versa. Also, you’ll never find a talmid always agreeing with his rebbe, and those differences will be magnified in each subsequent generation, especially when there were multiple rebbeim. Still, the relative similarity still speaks of an oral tradition.”
I think the similarities are not so much in their pshat in a given instance (where there is often disagreement with Rebbeim) inasmuch as a similar methodology (where they are similar to their Rebbeim as contrasted with the Chachmei Sefard).
Pesachim 112a:
??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???…??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????
The Ba’al Hamaor writes (Hamaor Hagadol Sanhedrin 12a Dafei Harif):
??? ???? ?? ???? ???”? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ????’ ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???’ ???”? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?”? ?????? ??????’ ??? ???’ ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?”? ????’ ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????’ ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ??”? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????’ ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?”? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ????????? ???? ??????
Regarding Sam’s claim that “any Chiddush in the realms of Halachah… has to have a Makor in Shas” and the subsequent dissenters, see the Benayahu (Berachos 8a):
??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????
(granted the context there is Talmudic sages)
“I can guarantee you that R’ Avigdor Miller could back up his approach with a mehalach in the relevant sugyos on Shas, as could those who disagree with him. But to dismiss it because there’s no explicit mekor in Shas would be ridiculous.”
Let’s not forget that the impetus for this thread was a comment which utterly dismissed the position of “those who disagree with him”. And I quote from the thread entitled For Pulsing Flower to Vicariously Rant about Iyun Through PAA:
Patur Aval Assur said “If you want to talk about Daas Torah, we should probably start a new thread.”
the plumber responded “There is no possible discussion for daas torah, it is right, if you don’t believe that, I don’t know what to tell you.”
See also Minchas Chinuch (495-496:3):
???? ????? ????”? ?????? ??”? ?”? ????? ????????? ???’ ?? ????? ???? ???’ ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???’ ??’ ??? ??’ ???? ???? ??”? ????? ????????? ?????? ???? ???”? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ????? ??”? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ??”? ?’ ????? ???? ????? ???’ ????? ??”? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ???’ ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???’ ?????? ??? ??”? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????”? ?’ ??? ????? ????? ?”? ????? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???’ ????? ?”? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ???’ ????? ?? ?? ????? ?”? ????? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???’ ?? ????? ?? ?”? ????? ????”? ???”? ??????’ ??’ ?? ????? ?????”? ?????? ???? ????? ????
And R’ Yerucham Fishel Perlow’s comments there:
????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??”? ?”? ?”? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???’ ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?”? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??”? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????”? ?? ???? ???
Haleivi:
The distinction is not made up. The pasuk says ?? ????? ???? which seemingly refers to the lischas hagazis. The Rambam holds that it applies only to the Beis Din Hagadol. See the ??????? ??? on sefer hamitzvos ‘??? ????? ??? ?. And see the Mishnas Yaavetz Choshen Mishpat siman 6 where he explains that the machlokes between the Rambam and the Sefer Hachinuch (about whether the obligation to listen applies even to a non-beis din hagadol) is Taluy on the Machlokes between the Rambam and the Ramban regarding whether kiddush hachodesh requires a beis din hagadol. He explains based on the Sifri which comes to include the Bais Din Hagadol in Yavneh, that the Rambam holds that it’s coming to give Yavneh the status of the Beis Din Hagadol whereas the Ramban holds that the status of Beis din Hagadol is determined by ????? ???? and therefore the Sifri is coming to tell us that even though Yavneh does not have the status of the Beis Din Hagadol, you still have to listen to them because the obligation is to listen to the Chachamim in every generation (like the Sefer Hachinuch says).
benignuman: While it is a machlokes (as I have just shown), the Sefer Hachinuch does in fact invoke Yiftach b’doro k’shmuel b’doro.
?????? ?????? ????”? ???? ??????? ??? ??? (It’s Kedai to read the whole piece but here are some excerpts):
?????? ??? ??? ??”? ?????? ????? ?’ ?? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? (??? ??? ???) [??? ????] ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? [????? ???? ???] ??? ?? ??? [???? ?”?: ???
??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?????
??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ??? ????? ?’ ?????? ?’ ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??????
And particularly what he writes about Mashiach:
?????? ??? ??? ??”? ?????? ????? ???????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???
Seemingly in favor of Daas Torah (although one can perhaps argue that this is also only talking in a halachic context) Pele Yoetz (Section entitled Shoel K’inyan):
??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???
“Sam and PAA, you have just destroyed the concept of Torah shebaal peh”
No. Once Torah Shebaal Peh is written down it is dangerous to quote an oral mesorah that may be against what is written down.
Also I think you misunderstand Sam’s point. I think what he is saying is that it is dangerous to claim an oral mesorah because then anyone can just get up and say anything they want and claim that it’s a mesorah – aaaiii there’s no evidence of such a mesorah… Well now it doesn’t matter because there isn’t supposed to be evidence of the mesorah.
Little Froggie:
I am not sure what the quote(s) from R’ Avigdor Miller accomplishes. I never denied that in recent times there are those who support the notion of Daas Torah. When you said “I would like to quote from one of the greatest that went through YU!” I thought that you were trying to show that even YU folk agree to daas torah which would be more of a chiddush (though still not a terribly huge chiddush) but I hardly think R’ Avigdor Miller represents YU hashkafa.
“Another case in point, a friend of mine years ago asked one of the Gedolim of Bnei Brak if anyone today has Ruach Hakodesh. (I apologize, but I forgot which Gadol he asked.) That Gadol thought for a minute and then answer, “I do not know for sure, but if anyone today has Ruach HaKodesh it is most definitely Reb Chaim!””
R’ Shlomo Aviner recently wrote:
“With all do respect, as much as I find R’ Aharon Lichtenstein to be a warm and caring person (and yes, I know him) I have never ever in the last 30 years heard anyone make the claim that you have made. Can you quote someone who has written or said so? (I just spent about a half hour on line trying to find some words of praise about him from the Chareidi world and found nothing. Not trying to discredit him, G-d Forbid, just trying to see if you know something that I don’t.)”
If you want words of praise about R’ Aharon Lichtenstein, here is a direct quote from R’ Aaron Rakeffet (in a shiur entitled The Viewpoint of Rav Aharon Lichtenstein):
“Next two years he sits in the Chaim Berlin Bais Medrash and he goes through all of shas. I do not believe R’ Aharon has gone through shas al haseder since then but already at the age of 16 he knew all of shas by heart. He could find you any gemara anywhere… (skip a bit of talking)
the Rav remembered gemaras by heart but Moshe, he couldn’t remember the exact daf, and he said ‘nu nu Aharon (insert Yiddish) where is the gemara in in…’ R’ Aharon would shoot back ‘Bava Kamma tzadi bet amud aleph’. In four years of watching this interplay, R’ Aharon was only wrong once. It was a gemara in Arvei Pesachim, I remember the sugya, and R’ Aharon said kuf aleph amud bet, and the quote the Rav was quoting was kuf bet amud aleph. It was the continuation. He was off by about two lines.”
The point that I am trying to bring out is that whatever the Chachamim are Maskim to becomes the Emes even though it might not be the emes of the metzius. Now this works fine for a halachic matter. But on a matter of belief you can’t believe something if you are acknowledging that it is only true because the Chachamim said so because what you are supposed to be believing is not that the Chachamim said that XYZ is true, but rather that XYZ is intrinsically true. The Dor Revi’i does seem to support this distinction as he clearly says that the Chachamim are only right because the rule is that the Chachamim are right but not because they are intrinsically right. (It would be instructive to see the whole piece inside – I only quoted one part that was directly to the point at hand.)
“So we can ignore the Takkanos from the Amaroim. Yippeeeeee!!!!!”
No. In the part that I didn’t quote he explains why the Talmud is binding.
This would seem to support my overall argument:
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