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Patur Aval AssurParticipant
Is this what you are referring to:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21194&pgnum=504
(I think it’s a brain not a heart, though it’s not relevant to your question.)
To answer your question, I have seen people claim that R’ Gedalia Nadel and R’ Mordechai Gifter said that the Chazon Ish read medical journals. Google chazon ish read medical journals and you will find these claims. Seeing as neither R’ Gifter nor R’ Nadel is still alive, I don’t know how you can verify the claims, so you’ll have to decide for yourself whether to accept them or not.
March 31, 2015 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090319Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
The difference is that I am not asking you to accept that pursuit of benefit has any inherent value. You are asking me to accept that doing the proper thing has inherent value. I’m fine if we say that nothing has any value. In the absence of all value everyone can do whatever they want. Many people will desire benefit and perhaps many people will desire to do good. But then we must acknowledge that there is no real difference between the two people – each one of them is simply following their desire.
And the offer wasn’t kind (emoticon).
March 31, 2015 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090317Patur Aval AssurParticipantAvram:
Yes, though you seem bent on reframing my broader definition of benefit to personal benefit.
I am reframing it because if it is not personal then there is no reason to do it.
Ok, so why would you go against your purpose?
Any number of reasons. E.g. you like money so you want to steal. Or you are jealous of someone so you want to kill him. Etc. Etc. Note that my point is not so much that there should be nothing stopping you from killing or stealing inasmuch as it is that you shouldn’t think that you’re a good person for giving up the stealing and killing, since you are only giving it up because you are getting something even better.
How does that follow?
If there is no reason why you should fulfill our purpose then it follows that there is no problem if you don’t fulfill it.
March 31, 2015 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090316Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
First of all, I did not express a position. I merely asked a question on the existing position(s). Second of all, the fact that it is a test doesn’t make it devoid of meaning – the test is whether you will obey the Divine will and the meaning is in obeying the Divine will. Or the test is a means of earning reward and the reward is the meaning. Third of all, why do you assume that something has to have meaning? There is no intrinsic Godly quality that demands omnibenevolence. Theoretically, an all-powerful God could just torture you all day and your life would have no meaning. Luckily for us, Hashem is nice and allows us to benefit. Fourth of all, you are equating “meaning in fulfilling a commandment” with “reason for the commandment”. If you want to give an example of a particular mitzvah which Chazal or the Sefer Hachinuch explain how it has meaning, we can discuss it.
I think I did address the chiluk between WOULD and SHOULD by expressing the lack of hechrech for there to be a chiluk.
As for your last paragraph, of course there has to be a point where you can no longer ask why. That point can be “pleasure”, “benefit”, “happiness”, or something of that sort. Any decision can come down to a cost-benefit analysis. You decide based on what is the most beneficial to you. I’m not saying that you have to pursue benefit, but you don’t need a separate reason to explain the pursuit of benefit.
March 31, 2015 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090313Patur Aval AssurParticipantOkay. The debate is starting to get confusing again. Probably because everyone arguing against me is saying different things. So first let me summarize what I think each person is saying.
DaasYochid
There is an inherent morality which in general cannot be separated from God’s commandments, for if it could be then the commandments would be random and meaningless which is unacceptable. However, God can, for the purpose of testing someone, command him to violate inherent morality.
yekke2
A person is born with an innate sense that classifies things as right or wrong. This proves that there is such a thing as right and wrong, and obligates us to follow it.
Avram in MD
There is always a benefit in doing the right thing, though we don’t necessarily know what it is. Furthermore, you have to have a reason why you would go against your created purpose. Additionally, there is no inherent morality; there is only God’s will which defines morality.
Patur Aval Assur
Even if there is an absolute “right” (which I am granting only for the sake of this argument) what obligates someone to follow it? If it is because of some benefit that a person will receive, then the reason to do it is not that it’s right, but that it’s beneficial. If the “right” can be completely divorced from any benefit then there remains no reason to do it.
I don’t see that DaasYochid answered this. Moreover I don’t understand his position ????? ???? – if the akeida can be a test, why can’t every mitzva be a test?
I don’t see that yekke2 answered my question either. He says that the fact that we have this innate sense is itself an obligation to do “right”. But the question is why that has to be.
I don’t see that Avram answered the question either. First he asserts that there is always a benefit (even if unknown) which seems to agree with me, but then he says that you need a reason to go against your purpose. However, I never suggested that you SHOULD go against your purpose; only that there is nothing forcing you to follow it, and therefore if for whatever reason you want to do something that is against your purpose, there should be no problem. Also, it would appear that DaasYochid would find Avram’s position on the relationship between Hashem and inherent morality to be unacceptable.
If I misrepresented anyone’s position feel free to correct me. Also, I am not trying to be facetious or annoying; I am just pointing out that I don’t think anyone actually addressed the question. If anyone does not want to continue the debate, feel free to drop out.
March 31, 2015 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090310Patur Aval AssurParticipantyayin:
Are you saying that there is no inherent morality, or that there is but religion overrides it?
March 31, 2015 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090309Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
So how come in http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/theological-conundrum-read-at-your-own-risk/page/3#post-562863 you tried to prove that there is inherent morality because if God gave us commandments they must conform to some inherent morality?
March 31, 2015 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090306Patur Aval AssurParticipantBut what’s wrong with doing something wrong?
Also, “[e]verybody has an innate sense of moral sense” is a bit of an oversimplification. Avram’s terrorist thinks that it is right to kill people. Now you might say that the terrorist’s indoctrinated beliefs are subverting his innate moral sense. But you could say the same thing about akeidas Yitzchak. So then you will have to say that God can command whatever he wants, even if it is against inherent morality. And then DaasYochid might tell you that you just said kefira.
March 31, 2015 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090304Patur Aval AssurParticipantI don’t see how you are answering the question. Do you think that it makes sense to do something for absolutely no benefit whatsoever? If yes, then why? Saying that this is how we were created is irrelevant because you haven’t explained why we should be beholden to how we were created. If no, then you are agreeing with me.
March 31, 2015 2:59 am at 2:59 am in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090302Patur Aval AssurParticipantActually, I retract my last post. I probably did it because it felt good to do the right thing.
March 31, 2015 1:41 am at 1:41 am in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090301Patur Aval AssurParticipantJust for the record:
Today I was in a situation where according to me I would have gotten no benefit for doing the “right” thing, and in I would have lost out, and I did the “right” thing just because it was “right”. So perhaps I’m a hypocrite.
March 31, 2015 1:38 am at 1:38 am in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090300Patur Aval AssurParticipantBy the way, the nafka mina of my pain point is that (if you grant it then) there is no reason to pedestalize altruism, nobility, morality, etc. because those people who we view as “better” are not actually better; they are just in pursuing a better benefit.
March 31, 2015 1:35 am at 1:35 am in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090299Patur Aval AssurParticipantSo, what’s the question?
That even within your system where the ultimate benefit is the good feeling of fulfilling your purpose, a good person is no better off than a terrorist.
March 31, 2015 1:15 am at 1:15 am in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090298Patur Aval AssurParticipantbecause he believed that if Hashem asked it, there was benefit to it.
So you are saying that Avraham did it for a benefit. Which means you are agreeing with me. The Rambam says:
????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?’ ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????
The simple meaning is that Avraham (and the ideal for everyone to strive for) did it for no benefit whatsoever. My question is that there is no reason to do something if not for some benefit. Now if you want to interpret the Rambam differently, and say that he’s not talking about ethereal benefits, that’s fine. But then you are acknowledging that you wouldn’t do something if there was no benefit whatsoever.
March 29, 2015 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm in reply to: PAA's not-always-in-context Coffee Room Report Card Comments #1156731Patur Aval AssurParticipantWell now there should be nothing holding you back…
March 29, 2015 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm in reply to: NeutiquamErro's favorite thread with an obscure title #1147665Patur Aval AssurParticipantThere are those, however, who cannot follow the Hebrew, and those who cannot cope with the complexity of some of the sources, who are intimidated off a little.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/your-coffee-room-report-card-comments#post-530103
March 29, 2015 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm in reply to: PAA's not-always-in-context Coffee Room Report Card Comments #1156729Patur Aval AssurParticipant“You take it personally when people say that you have to listen “Daas Torah” which doesn’t make sense to you, and use the Excessive-Block-Text-Brute-Force-Method to stop anybody arguing!!”
(yekke2)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/wizards-and-witches-jews/page/9#post-563215
March 29, 2015 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm in reply to: NeutiquamErro's favorite thread with an obscure title #1147661Patur Aval AssurParticipantI don’t think I ever indicated that I take it personally. (In fact in that thread I brought seven pro daas torah sources.) Does it come off that way?
And “Excessive-Block-Text-Brute-Force” is meant to promote debate, not stifle it.
March 29, 2015 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm in reply to: PAA's not-always-in-context Coffee Room Report Card Comments #1156728Patur Aval AssurParticipant“PAA: At least acknowledge that the Dor Revi’i was attacked for these Shittos and that he is on the fringe of accepted thought, if not outright rejected.”
(Sam2)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/daas-torah-2/page/5#post-526552
Patur Aval AssurParticipantCorrection:
It was Vaeira, not Vayeira.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantSpecifically where it says:
?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????
Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
It’s interesting you bring that up. I saw a piece in there on Parshas Vayeira and that was actually what my quote of the Noda B’yehuda was meant to primarily address.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantNo one. Randomex was using Yudkowsky to demonstrate that I don’t have to defend myself.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantWhy would I take offense? Anyway, I’m not saying that R’ Elya Ber can’t argue. I’m just saying that according to (your representation of) him, R’ Dovid Tzvi Hoffman is guilty of kefira. As is the Chasam Sofer (Nidda 18a):
??? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ?”? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ????”? ????’ ????? ???”? ??????
And R’ Yosef Karo (Kesef Mishneh Berachos 8:5):
???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??
etc. etc.
March 29, 2015 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090296Patur Aval AssurParticipantyekke2:
Why is “why should a person do what is correct?” not as valid a question as “why would a person do what is correct?”?
I already said that my question is even if there is an innate sense of morals. Why should you follow it other than for the benefit you accrue by following it?
On an emotional level I probably would find it repugnant but something being repugnant to me is not a mechayev.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantSince the theological conundrum thread is active again I have to reaffirm that “I really do believe in Hashem”.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI think the Maharshal (siman 72) said it best:
?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????
March 29, 2015 3:42 am at 3:42 am in reply to: NeutiquamErro's favorite thread with an obscure title #1147652Patur Aval AssurParticipantRegarding the allegiance of wands:
First of all, upon rereading the excerpts that I quoted from Ollivander, it seems to me that Ollivander wasn’t 100% certain about the idea of wands changing allegiances. Notice how he says things like “then it may be yours”, “I think so”, “I think so”, “Whether it needs to pass by murder,
I do not know”.
Additionally, there could really be two separate issues here. The starting point is that a wand that is not yours doesn’t work well for you. So theoretically, “winning a wand” could just allow it to work well for you without the added chiddush of allegiances changing. Ollivander’s statement of “Yes, if you won it, it is more likely to do your
bidding, and do it well, than another wand” would reflect this. Though Ollivander does seem to hold of the added chiddush.
But getting to yekke2’s question, I think I was sort of alluding to this earlier, namely, that if disarming someone causes a change of allegiance, then there would really be complete anarchy. Wands would be changing allegiances on a daily basis and no one would be able to keep track of it. Also, in the third book Harry disarmed Snape. So Harry should have had the allegiance of Snape’s wand. Now sirvoddmort might answer both of these points by saying that when the person took his wand back, he regained its allegiance.
Stam a kashya – how did Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald if Grindelwald had an unbeatable wand? Unless “unbeatable” is lav davka.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantRambam Hilchos Avoda Zara 2:3:
?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ????
Patur Aval AssurParticipantIt was Randomex trying to convince me that I don’t have to defend myself from three years ago.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantWhere did I indicate anything to the contrary?
March 29, 2015 1:43 am at 1:43 am in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090294Patur Aval AssurParticipantyekke2:
First paragraph – What is the difference between “would” and “should”? Are you saying that someone wouldn’t do something without getting benefit, but he should do it without a benefit? But why should someone do something for no benefit? Unless you want to understand ???? ???? ??? differently (which you are perfectly entitled to do), the Rambam seems to be saying that someone should do something for no benefit, simply because it is the ???.
Second paragraph – Why should that make you accountable? What obligates you to follow it?
Third paragraph – I would say that he broke the law and has to face the law’s consequences. (At least in theory that’s what I would say. But perhaps it is possible that it would be better for the law if people assumed that there was an underlying moral ?????.)
March 27, 2015 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090291Patur Aval AssurParticipantYou haven’t explained why you should do something because it’s inherently good.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe Sifri and the Yalkut Shimoni have the girsa as ????. But regardless of whether the derasha is referring to ???? or ?????? ????? or both, my point was that according to the Rambam and the Sefer Hachinuch it is not limited to those categories; it applies to all pursuit of gashmius.
March 27, 2015 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090289Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
Not at all. I am not asking why it’s his ratzon. All I’m asking is why you should follow it. Actually I wasn’t even asking that. I was asking why you should do something just because it’s inherently right. But you could apply the same question to Hashem’s ratzon.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI preempted that with my parenthetical.
March 27, 2015 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090287Patur Aval AssurParticipantAvram:
In your first paragraph, what is the benefit if not the pleasure?
In your second paragraph, you don’t explain what the benefit of following the command was.
My point from the terrorist is that as long as you think you are fulfilling your purpose, you have the same “good feeling” regardless of whether you fulfilled your actual purpose. (This is based on your assumption that the terrorist feels good.)
March 27, 2015 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090286Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
You’ll have to explain what you mean by that.
March 27, 2015 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090285Patur Aval AssurParticipantGavra:
The reason why I didn’t directly accuse DaasYochid of kefira on the previous page is that one might make the argument that morality is the same as ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? in the Rashba. We never got to that point of the debate because then DaasYochid asked me to define morality, and if neither you nor he is advancing such a claim then we don’t need to have the debate at the present time. As for your next point, I would ask you what the value of following the RBSO’s map is. I.e. what’s the value of fulfilling your purpose?
March 27, 2015 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm in reply to: PAA's not-always-in-context Coffee Room Report Card Comments #1156727Patur Aval AssurParticipant“I believe that is kefirah.”
(DaasYochid)
Patur Aval AssurParticipantYou are welcome, and thank you for the compliment, sirvoddmort.
March 27, 2015 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090281Patur Aval AssurParticipantyekke2:
Why are you equating mental blockage with right and wrong?
March 27, 2015 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090280Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
So if you can’t define right/wrong, nor explain what makes something right/wrong, then claiming that something is right/wrong is meaningless. I assume you are claiming that something is right/wrong based on the fact that Hashem either commanded it or forbade it. But I don’t see why you have to equate God’s will with right/wrong. Unless, like my second pshat in Gavra’s statement, you are saying that there is an external force that is forcing God’s commands.
March 27, 2015 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090279Patur Aval AssurParticipantGavra:
When you say “absolute right and wrong (the RBSO)” I’m not sure what you mean. If you mean that because the RBSO commanded it it becomes right, then there is no real meaning to right and wrong; it is simply God’s will. If you mean that there is an external force determining right and wrong and God can only command something which fits into the category of “right” as determined by the external force, then you haven’t at all explained why it is right (and you would be venturing in the direction which I brought the Rashba for).
March 27, 2015 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090278Patur Aval AssurParticipantAvram:
As far as I can tell, everything in all of your posts always comes down to a human being seeking the best pleasure. I have no problem with that. My problem is that you cannot simultaneously say that you are doing it because it is inherently right, because the only reason you are doing what is inherently right is that it gives you an even loftier pleasure.
Also, I don’t see how you addressed my point from the terrorist – at the end of the day (according to how you said the example) the terrorist and the good-deed-doer both fulfilled what they thought was there purpose and they both achieved that loftiest of feelings which one gets upon realizing that he fulfilled his purpose.
March 27, 2015 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090270Patur Aval AssurParticipantSo are you saying that you don’t understand why killing is wrong?
March 27, 2015 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm in reply to: NeutiquamErro's favorite thread with an obscure title #1147646Patur Aval AssurParticipantyekke2:
It’s a nice pshat, but there is nothing in Ollivander’s words that indicate it and there is a lot in Ollivander’s words that indicate against it. If that is really how it works then I don’t have such a big problem. The big problem is that Harry formed the plan based on what Ollivander told him and Ollivander told him nothing of the sort of what you are saying.
Stam a kashya on your pshat would be that Gindelwald didn’t defeat Gregorovitch; he just stole the wand.
March 27, 2015 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090268Patur Aval AssurParticipantTo clarify:
I guess what I am now saying is that something cannot be “right” if its rightness can’t be explained, but once you explain its rightness it is no longer INHERENTLY right.
March 27, 2015 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090267Patur Aval AssurParticipantDisclaimer:
Everyone should realize that the rate of posting is such that most comments are not seen by someone until after he posts his next comment.
yekke2:
Sorry, I don’t get you. I think your last statement is in essence your position. But I don’t see that you have provided an explanation as to why the very understanding that something is WRONG is a reason not to do it, and is an obligation to that effect. And if there is no reason not to do it then in what sense is it actually WRONG?
March 27, 2015 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm in reply to: Theological Conundrum (read at your own risk) #1090266Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaasYochid:
Morality is the sense of right and wrong. But if there is no reason to do the right thing then what is the definition of right?
(This post might indicate that I have to retract my asterisk from above.)
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