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Patur Aval AssurParticipant
DaasYochid:
I’m not sure if you took my post as being to “disprove” you, but if you did, it wasn’t. I just figured that since you had quoted the S’dei Chemed, I would bring in a couple of other opinions.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantAn often quoted source in favor of metzitza b’peh is the Binyan Tzion siman 23. However, there doesn’t seem to be anything in there that would be against metzitza with a tube provided that it does as good of a job at drawing out the blood as metzitza b’peh would do.
R’ Moshe writes that it’s pashut that metzitza is not meakev the mitzvah.
Igros Moshe Y.D. 1:223:
??? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?’ ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?????
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“thanks again paa”
What was the first time?
Patur Aval AssurParticipantBut my point is that it doesn’t make sense to say that someone can’t be considered to have KNOWN statement P if despite his belief in, and the truth of, statement P, the conclusion was reached based on a premise which was false, yet say that one can be considered to have KNOWN statement P when there is a possibility of statement P itself not being true. Which seems to be what Gettier is saying by granting the conditions of knowledge in cases without the additional step of deductive reasoning.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantdaitan kaalos
Member Since
September 16, 2014 (36 minutes)
Coincidence?
Any which way, you can check out these threads:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/r-chaim-kanievski-women-wearing-tefillin
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-are-some-people-so-smart
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Find out where DaMoshe is davening, and then let us know how it was.”
DaMoshe has clearly indicated that he will be singing. Popa has clearly indicated that he doesn’t want any singing. Not a good shidduch. Unless you want DaMoshe to have esrogim thrown at him.
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“was that any help?”
Regardless of any specifics being said here, it is helpful just to be able to articulate my thoughts on the matter and have someone articulate thoughts back.
That being said, I think I disagree with your example from elephants and the application to our case. (This is all only about my second point above, forgetting my first point for the time being.) My point was that the fact that a belief is justified shouldn’t mean anything vis-a-vis knowledge unless the justification is 100% which can’t be because if it was 100% then it would be impossible to have a different outcome. So in our case, while Chaim is justified in believing that Yoely will win, it cannot be said that he KNOWS that Yoely will win. If he doesn’t KNOW that Yoely will win then a fortiori he doesn’t KNOW that the winner will have ten coins. Again, it could be this was actually Gettier’s point in which case we might be agreeing.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantgavra:
Just for the record, I was only quoting R’ Shternbuch to present a possible reason not to make a zimun. I was not saying that the halacha follows R’ Shternbuch. In fact, many poskim disagree with him, for example R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach as quoted in Halichos Baisa. In support of Popa, the Aruch Hashulchan (199:2) writes: ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? although he doesn’t give a justification.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThat would probably depend on what kind of error it was.
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Gettier has no issue with Chaim’s arrival to the conclusion that the winner will have ten coins in his pocket”
I have an issue with that. Chaim is not arriving at that conclusion; the conclusion which he is arriving at is that Yoely will be the winner and by definition he will have ten coins. It’s all based on the premise that Yoely will win whichwasn’t true, in which case one of the conditions of knowledge was lacking. We can really take this a step further: Chaim believes that Yoely will win and he is justified in this belief. So if Yoely wins, did Chaim KNOW that Yoely would win? According to the three conditions, Chaim knew. But I could apply Gettier’s argument here and say that Chaim didn’t know, because his knowledge was based on a premise which might have been false. In other words Chaim got lucky, the same way he got lucky in the case where he actually one. Being justified in a belief doesn’t make it true – if the requisite justification needs to be 100% then it would in fact be impossible for Yoely to lose if Chaim had been justified in believing that Yoely would win. So even when Yoely does win, you can’t really call it knowledge; it was a strong prediction. Now Gettier may have been alluding to this when he wrote: “First, in that sense of ‘justified’ in which S’s being justified in believing P is a necessary condition of S’s knowing that P, it is possible for a person to be justified in believing a proposition that is in fact false.”
Patur Aval AssurParticipantgavra:
The Shulchan Aruch in O.C. 199:7 paskens that it’s a reshus. R’ Moshe Shternbuch discusses this issue in Teshuvos V’hanhagos 6:49. He asks that since we pasken that it’s a reshus (so there is nothing to lose by making a zimun) why aren’t women machmir like the shitta of the Rosh who holds that they are actually chayev to make a zimun. He suggests that zimun has a din of a beracha (using the shem umalchus from the beracha of Hazan) and it might be that the halacha that says that they are permitted to make a zimun is only if there is a tzorech, but in lieu of a tzorech it would be a beracha sheaino tzericha. He explains that the tzorech would be if there was a woman who needed someone to be motzi her and lechatchila shomea k’oneh is only permissible when you make a zimun. In Teshuvos V’hanhagos 4:51 he explains this slightly differently and adds another two reasons for women not to make a zimun, namely that it might be yuhara and that it might be lo sisgodedu if in the general populace, women don’t make a zimun. His concluding remarks there are:
??”? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ??? ???”? ?? ????? ????? ?????
?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ????”?
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“PAA: I’m actually not sure that it is a joke. Just to clarify (if my point needed clarification)”
You already clarified your point quite well:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/learning-boy-1#post-524992
Patur Aval AssurParticipantYeshivishsocrates1:
Thank you for the response. My issue with what you are saying is that the statement (p) of “I believe that the one who will get the job will have ten coins” is essentially just a synonymous way of saying “I believe that Yoely will get the job”. If you would ask Chaim the following question: “If someone other than Yoely will end up getting the job, do you believe that he will have ten coins?” Chaim would certainly say “no”. Chaim is justified to believe that Yoely will get the job and that therefore the one who gets the job will have ten coins but he is not justified in believing that WHOEVER will get the job will have ten coins. However, since Chaim never entertained the possibility of someone other than Yoely getting the job, the belief was expressed in broader terms.
But I can hear that there is a difference between saying “the one who will get the job will have ten coins” and “whoever will get the job will have ten coins” so you might be right. It also could be that I am essentially saying the same thing as Gettier (namely the reason why it wouldn’t be considered knowledge) just that I am saying that the pre-Gettier philosophers would agree.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantLior:
I didn’t answer my question, and what I said in regards to my answer to your question was merely to give you a possible way out.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantLior:
Writersoul wrote “Just to, in all seriousness, address DY” so why would you expect your question to be addressed therein? But anyway it was sort of addressed: “But those who want something more can find it very easily here, and that’s something that I wouldn’t give up for the world. Living in Eretz Yisrael is one thing (and a really big thing- going to the kotel Friday afternoon, on a whim, is not the sort of thing I’d be able to do while attending college in New York)”
Now maybe you were preempting what I just said when you wrote “You can attend domestic seminary and get the virtually the same primary benefits you’ve cited” with the word “virtually” coming to exclude the benefit which I just quoted, or perhaps the word “primary” coming to exclude the benefit which I just quoted.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantjust some jew:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/daas-torah-2
Maybe somewhere in the 345 posts there is a back and forth as to the source.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantgavra:
Why would you grant someone the status of unquestionable Torah wisdom until proven wrong? I was working under the assumption that a Talmid Chacham can tell you what he thinks the Torah position on a matter would be and considering that he has quite a bit of Torah knowledge, it is very likely that he is right. So unless I had a specific reason to think that he is wrong in a given situation (e.g. I think that he doesn’t know the metzius) it makes sense to follow him. But to unilaterally declare his opinion to be THE TORAH”S POSITION? I think not. Therefore if he is wrong once it doesn’t make any difference (provided that his mistake was not something that calls into question his basic ability to make an informed decision).
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI was just wonedering if I missed a basic step or something, because his question doesn’t make sense to me.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantoyyoyyoy:
See Igros Moshe O.C. 4:66
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=920&st=&pgnum=118 it goes on to the next page. The most pertinent part is the end which I will quote here for you:
???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??”? ???”? ?”? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?”? ?”? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????”? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???????? ????”? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?”? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???”? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????????
Patur Aval AssurParticipantGavra:
Why should being wrong be grounds for losing the status of being a wise man’s opinion. I make mistakes. I don’t therefore say that I can never trust my opinion again. Same with Moshe Rabbeinu. Same with experts in any field. If you detect a consistent pattern of this person making mistakes then that’s a horse of a different color.
September 15, 2014 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045980Patur Aval AssurParticipantR’ Ovadia Yosef, Shu”t Yabia Omer Hakdama Ose 6:
?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? (??? ????? ???????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????”? ?? ???????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????) ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?????????? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???????
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“PAA: Popa’s already told me that I’m notin a real seminary.”
Obviously. No one in a real seminary would say “kollel- great as a concept, or something for an individual to decide to do, but pretty bad as a full lifestyle and supposedly necessary part of life”.
That was a joke. Sort of.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantBeing mistaken doesn’t make it not Da’as Torah. It just means that he was mistaken as to what the Da’as Torah was. Even if he wasn’t demonstrated to have been mistaken, it was still just his opinion (albeit perhaps a weighty opinion) as to what the Da’as Torah was. So being mistaken is irrelevant. It is just as much Da’as Torah after we know of the mistake as it was before we knew of the mistake, that is to say it was his opinion of what the Daas Torah was which has been shown to have been mistaken.
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“PAA
I stand corrected, thanks!”
I wasn’t particularly coming to correct you inasmuch as I just needed an excuse to segue into this topic.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI’m sorry to hear that. I happen to find it very amusing.
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“I don’t find this discussion funny.”
Why ever not?
Patur Aval AssurParticipantLior:
Now I’m confused as to what your point was.
(As a side note I was leaving open the possibility that you may have meant any of the following definitions:
1)a local town boy or youth, as contrasted with a university or public school student
2)an ill-bred man, especially one who behaves in a dishonorable or irresponsible way toward women
3)a servant at a university or public school
4)an omnibus conductor)
Patur Aval AssurParticipantIs there nothing in between gentleman and cad? Also you will have to tell me which definition of cad you are using.
September 14, 2014 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045979Patur Aval AssurParticipantAliyos Eliyahu Ose 77:
?????? ????? ????? ?”? ????”? ???????? ?”? ???? ????”? ????????? ????? ???”? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ?”? ??????? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ?????? ?????? ?’ ????? ?”? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?”? ??”? ???”? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??’ ??”? ??? ???”? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ?? ????? ??????? ????”? ??”? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ???????? ?”? ??? ???????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?”? ???????? ?”? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???????? ?”? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ??”? ???”? ?”? ?? ???? ???????? ?”? ?????? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????
Patur Aval AssurParticipantYou can laugh at our “Squabbles, Bickering & Disagreements”. And while I can’t speak for Randomex, I most certainly am not a gentleman.
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Guys, seminary is amazing. Stop kvetching about it.”
I guess the one that Popa went to wasn’t(isn’t?) quite as good.
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“PAA
Really?? I would’ve thought they’d ask “What does Avul mean?””
That’s when I introduce myself to Jews. And the name is Aval not Avul.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantYou miss my point. I don’t expect you to read all the threads from before you became a user AND I also don’t expect you to read all the current threads. The fact that there are more threads from before you became a user than there are current threads is immaterial because both subsets are large enough that I don’t expect you to know them in their entirety (or even in their majority). My only point is that you should have originally said that the reason that you didn’t know of the post that I linked is that you shouldn’t be expected to know every post. When you became a user should have had nothing to do with it.
September 14, 2014 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm in reply to: Expanding on the Shidduch Crisis Math (Catastrophe) #1036585Patur Aval AssurParticipantThat could be true if there was an equal amount of bad women and bad men. But the concept of ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? wouldn’t allow for that. What you just said would make the Gemara’s question (according to Rashi’s explanation) not a question.
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Someone recently told me that this Gemara lists a number if stars, which was about two digits more or less from the number that NASA gives!”
The number of stars given by the Gemara in Berachos (32b) is 1,064,340,000,000,000,000
The number of stars given by Modern Science varies based on diffeent approximations, but is anywhere from 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 which while obviously based on approximations and extrapolations from the number of stars which can be seen, is 1,000-10,000 times more than the gemara’s number.
Interestingly, the Ralbag in his commentary to Lech Lecha writes that Avraham saw in a nevuah that his descendants would be as numerous as the uncountable stars but that was because at that time the number of stars was not known. I.e. the Ralbag thought that where were rather few stars (as he explains in Milchamos H’) but Avraham’s nevuah reflected the (mistaken) belief that there were in fact numerous stars. He holds that nevuah doesn’t have to reflect reality; it reflects the navi’s view of reality (although I think in Milchamos H’ he explains differently).
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Patur Aval Assur: I’m sure you’ve quoted on the CR from “the great writings making up the corpus of Shas and Poskim” more than
once.”
What makes you so sure? I specifically only quote the non-great writings.
On a serious note, I didn’t say that you should be expected to know of every post in every thread just because you sometimes quote posts. Just like I shouldn’t be expected to know all of Shas and Poskim (well maybe I should, but that’s a different story). I was specifically targeting your excuse for not knowing of that post which was that it was posted before your time. That is not a valid excuse, considering that you do know of some posts from before your time. Much like it would not be a valid excuse for me to say that I don’t know XYZ in Shas and Poskim because it was written before my time. Had you said that the corpus of coffee room posts is too vast for you to be expected to be a baki in it’s entirety then I would have accepted that as a valid excuse. Much the same way as my excuse for not knowing all of Shas and Poskim is the sheer enormity of it.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantWhenever I introduce myself to non-Jews their reactions are invariably “What kind of name is Exempt but Forbidden?”
Patur Aval AssurParticipantSo I was rereading the “small piece about Techeiles” which I mentioned above and I decided to be melamed zechus (on the second objection). The sefer said ??? ?????? ??’ ??? ????? ?? ???????? ?’ ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????. My limud zechus is that it’s a mistake and he meant to write ????? ???.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI think it just means that that is the star of Sisera’s mazal. Which then could mean that the ?????????? are the inhabitants of the star. Also see the Maharsha who implies that there might not be any source for Rashi’s statement. Also it seems that the Yaavetz did not understand Rashi as referring to the people under Sisera’s mazal.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantI forgot to mention one of my other reasons:
5)When they get old and infirm they will have something to do.
Patur Aval AssurParticipant50 posts per page.
September 14, 2014 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm in reply to: For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA #1045978Patur Aval AssurParticipant(???? ??????? (????:
?????? ???????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??”? ????? ?????? ??”? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???”? ???? ??”?
September 14, 2014 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm in reply to: Expanding on the Shidduch Crisis Math (Catastrophe) #1036582Patur Aval AssurParticipantBut it wouldn’t be true that it is a siman that she became his wife because of his bad maasim. Because if anything it’s more likely that it was his zivug rishon because by a zivug rishon his wife can be bad both if he has good maasim or if he has bad maasim since it’s predestined.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantThis has been argue for many generations already. The main proof (from a Torah source) advanced in favor of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is the pasuk in Shoftim (5:23) ?????? ?????? ????? ???????? ?’ ????? ?????? ?????????? ???? ??? ????? ????????? ?’ ????????? ?’ ??????????????
The Gemara in Moed Katan in discussing ???? says ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???????. So there is an opinion that it is a star. And the pasuk refers to ?????????? i.e. its inhabitants.
I believe (I’m saying believe in case I am misremembering) that R’ Soloveitchik said that it is plausible that there is other life because H’ wants to do chessed so why would the chessed be limited to the infinitesimally miniscule Earth. It’s likely that there is a lot of life out there – the more life = the more chessed that H’ can do. You can look this up in “The Rav Thinking Aloud” which I don’t currently have. (If I had it I would quote the relevant portion.)
Patur Aval AssurParticipantBy the way, I wasn’t responding to Syag, I was responding to the original question.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantRandomex:
The thread that you referenced there predated your membership.
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“There’s more of a sevara to believe in graphology than techeilesology.”
I beg to differ.
“especially if I knew the person not to be a charlatan or meshuggener.”
So you know Syag to not be a charlatan or meshuggener but you have your doubts about me. But I suspect that the (one of many) reason(s) why you would suspect me of being a charlatan or a meshuggener is precisely because of techeiles(ology).
Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Syag, what can you tell from PAA’s handwriting?”
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/your-coffee-room-report-card-comments
Patur Aval AssurParticipantIt doesn’t prove graphology. What it does is demonstrate that there is not much scientific research/data that supports it. To use the inverse of your favorite line on you, “something can be wrong even if I can’t prove it”. The point is that if something doesn’t have sufficient evidence supporting it then we should be skeptical (all the more so if it has evidence against it). I can claim that I can tell about you from looking at techeiles. There is no evidence supporting my claim but you haven’t disproven it. And even if you would demonstrate that all my predictions are wrong, I could just say that it just proves that I am a charlatan but not that you can’t tell about a person from looking at techeiles.
Patur Aval AssurParticipantPerhaps. But he continues and says ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????
So there might be other factors at play. If in Hilchos Berachos she is ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ????? then maybe he can’t be ???? ???????? ????. So there might be several factors at play.
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