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Feivel,
Don Kessinger, Glenn Beckert, Billy Williams, Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, Jim Hickman, Paul Popovich, Joe Pepitone, Fergie Jenkins, Ken Holtzman, etc.
The Hamon Am were Zionist. All the frum shuls collected for JNF and were involved in Zionist activities. I read this in a biography of one whom the Chareidim consider a big gadol. He became the Rav, and tried to stop what was a long established practice. He ran into tremendous opposition from all the baalei batim who could not believe what was now going on all of the sudden that they could not have their annual appeal.
Anybody who blames the Zionists for what the Nazis did is at best a shakran and at worst an apikorus. To say, as was quoted above that had we listened to Rav XYZ’s plan the Holocaust wouldn’t have happened is totally ignoring the fact the the RBSH runs the world. To make up nonsense that the Mufti and Hitler were great friends of the Jews if not for the Zionists, is ludicrous. The blame belongs on Hitler and the Mufti, not on the victims. Plenty of Zionists lost family in the Holocaust, as well.
To say that had we resorted to the old scheme of “quiet diplomacy” (read, protection money) everything would have been fine, is also baloney and kefira. What about Tach vTat, the Crusades, the Inquisition??? Do the Zionists also take the blame for those, as well? It is an inability to admit that the Holocaust was min hashamayim and possibly because of deep personal kashyas of some of these Rabbonim which they don’t have answers for that they play the blame game. If you want to talk about hishtadlus to prevent anti-semitism, the rational way is to do what the Zionists did, and establish a safe haven run by Jews in our own homeland so we will not be subject to pogroms, economic discrimination, expulsions, compulsion to convert to other religions, etc. The logic is so simple that one would have to have had his mind totally twisted by Chareidi propaganda to think that a better solution is to depend on other nations to protect us and treat us fairly when their track record in doing so througout all of history has been so dismal. What world are these distorters of history living in? Do they have any idea how bitter the golus has been even long before the holocaust? Are they aware how the Russians used to draft nice Yiddishe kids for 25 years until they were finished with yiddishkeit and completely broken, having been away from their families for all that time? Read about the Cantonist children for details. I have never heard such sheker in my life that throughout our golus life was great thanks to “quiet diplomacy”. One would have to be a total shoteh not to feel the pain of this long and bitter golus for two thousand years.
Any person on the street knows its better to own your own home rather than rent, since the landlord can evict you any time and not renew the lease. He can control how you use the property, raise the rent every year, conduct maintenance and invade your privacy when you most need some rest and tranquility (say the week before your son’s bar mitzvah), etc. etc. etc. When you own your own place, as long as you can afford the mortgage, you are the baal habayis and nobody can make your life miserable. It is so simple any child can understand it. Chareidi brainwashing goes a long way in getting people to lose their ability to think. The Zionists took the most sensible and comprehensive path in trying to solve the problem of anti-semitism. Was everything they did perfect, no, they were human. So let’s continue to improve on the beautiful edifice they have built and from which all Jews benefit Chareidim included, although they don’t have the midas haemes to admit it. Compare their lives now in EY with their lives in their beloved Europe they so much long for (and want to continue that language and dress). Only a fool would think it was better then.
Mookie Wilson.
Joseph, I have eaten thousands of meals both at the homes of others when I was single and married, and at my home after I was married, with both singles and couples, and I have never seen any inappropriate incident at the table. Certainly, the idea of someone starting up with somebody else’s spouse, is the most far-fetched thing I could imagine. Maybe you should join my circle of friends, and see how well-behaved they are with no need for any of these newfangled separation practices.
Are Jewish families abnormal?
In most normal families, the men and women there talk to everybody. Whatever the topic is, everybody participates together.
Jphone, many chareidi yeshivas have that policy from 8th grade up.
All those who claim things have gotten worse lately, have obviously not read Tanach. Some of the stories there would make a sailor blush. The yetzer hara has been around for a long, long time. That didn’t stop previous generations from being menschlach.
This is unbelievable. You mean Chareidim now have a new “issur” on inviting guests? Where did I miss this one in Hilchos Yichud? Does that also mean a couple cannnot invite a yeshiva boy or seminary girl for Shabbos either? Is this the same “issur” as mixed seating at a wedding? Was Reb Moshe a bad Jew because he had mixed seating at all his kids weddings?
Joseph, so you now have come around to the fact that many in the Chareidi world rely on Reb Yosef Dov Soloveitchik for a heter to go to college, while simultaneously denigrating him. Support for college in the Chareidi world is extremely thin, at best.
Jothar, regarding your earlier post that everybody is modeh to number 3 that college is mutar for parnasa, this is adamantly not the Chareidi viewpoint. You can Google Rav Svei and Touro and see he was against it for parnasa. I showed that Reb Moshe felt the same way, and Reb Aharon for sure felt that way. Reb Shmuel Berenbaum did not allow college at the Mir, and ended second seder at 8 pm to make sure nobody could go at night. The Chareidi yeshivos in EY do not even allow high school. Do you think that if a Chareidi parent would ask his yeshiva ketana to give him some secular classes in HS so he can make a parnasa later on, they would comply? The mainstream Chareidi world was against college for any and all reasons, and they felt that using it for parnasa was a lack of bitachon. The main proponent of college for parnasa was Rabbi Soloveitchik who wrote that we need a generation of frum, learned doctors and lawyers and professionals.
Because the yeshivishe world has now come to the realization that college may be absolutely necessary for many, they have reinvented the machlokes. They now claim that they always held that way, and the opposition was to those people who go to college lishma and not for parnasa. They therefore reinvent Rabbi Soloveitchik’s shita, as well (otherwise, what are they arguing about, as everybody would agree), and claim he said one should go to college even not for parnasa, just lishma. I am not sure he ever said such a thing.
In the bracha of al hamichya, there is a dispute as to whether to conclude al hamichya or al hamichya v’al hakalkalah. There are some who conclude the bracha al hamichya v’al hakalkalah zogt men nisht. (They add in the words “we don’t say” to cancel out the al hakalkalah if not correct.) A friend of mine was explaining that when Moshe Rabbeinu came down from the mountain he taught the klal that the correct nusach is “al hamichya v’al hakalkalah zogt men nisht.” He said, Look, I know its confusing being that it’s two languages and all, but trust me, this is the nusach I heard from the RBSH.
NY Times Article:
At the Bar; Oy! One misused Yiddish word in court, and just listen to all the kvetching going on.
By David Margolick
Published: Friday, June 26, 1992
Santiago v. Sherwin-Williams et al. had already droned on for four years when counsel for the defense filed its umpteenth otherwise unmemorable motion in the case last August. “It is unfortunate,” it declared, “that this court must wade through the dreck of plaintiff’s statement of undisputed facts.”
Jonathan Shapiro of Stern, Shapiro, Rosenfeld & Weissberg in Boston, one of the plaintiff’s four lawyers, was startled by the choice of words. Dreck, he knew from his grandparents, was Yiddish for doo-doo, though a tad more tart. Even by the standards of the nareshkaytn normally filed by opposing lawyers, he thought such chutzpah intolerable. So last September he and a co-counsel, Neil Leifer of Boston, resolved to talk takhles with Judge Joseph L. Tauro, the tsadik hearing the case.
“For almost four years now, plaintiff and her attorneys have been subjected to constant kvetching by defendants’ counsel, who have made a big tsimis about the quantity and quality of plaintiff’s responses to discovery requests,” it stated. “This has been the source of much tsores among plaintiff’s counsel and a big megillah for the court.”
It was hardly balebatish , the lawyers complained, to call a fellow lawyer’s work “dreck,” particularly “in view of the khazeray which they have filed.” Finally, “since not all of plaintiff’s lawyers are yeshiva bokhers ,” it was presumptuous as well. “Plaintiff prays that the court put an end to this mishugas and strike “dreck,” he concluded.
Ever since the motion was filed, yentes at law firms have been photocopying and faxing the Shapiro-Leifer broadside throughout the country. In a way, the memo has challenged all of the bobe mayses about the death of Yiddish.
The offending memo was written by Karen DeSantis, an associate at the Washington office of Kirkland & Ellis of Chicago. But it was signed by makhers from three other firms — Goodwin, Proctor & Hoar and Bingham, Dana & Gould in Boston and Popham, Haik, Schnobrich & Kaufman in Minneapolis. And, Mr. Shapiro asserts, the word “dreck” was retained at the specific insistence of lawyers at Bingham, Dana.
Lawyers at Bingham Dana at first tried to make Mr. Shapiro’s request sound like bobkes . “We find it difficult to believe you would seriously have us all shlep to court to argue such a meshugganah motion,” Meghan Magruder, a partner, wrote Mr. Shapiro. Had he called only to kibitz , she continued, he would have learned that the scriveners of the offensive motion “are all goyim ” who innocently misused the word.
Were Mr. Shapiro enough of a mentsh to withdraw the motion, she went on, the defense would happily stipulate that dreck be changed to “morass.” “As the taxpayers must ultimately pay to resolve such a motion, it would be a mitzvah ,” she concluded. “Moreover, your shtik may be lost on the court.”
But when he ruled on the motion last December, Judge Tauro showed the defense lawyers no rakhmones . “Any further use of inappropriate language in any proceeding before this court will result in the imposition of sanctions,” he wrote in stern and unadulterated English.
In the meantime the authors of the memo continue to get nakhes . Stanley G. Feldman, vice chief justice of the Supreme Judicial Court of Arizona, awarded the Shapiro-Liefer collaboration his prestigious “motion of the year award.” And in an article entitled “Plain Yiddish for Lawyers and Judges,” in Trial magazine, Ralph Slovenko of Wayne State University Law School in Detroit quotes the memo at length.
“With the almost complete extermination of European Jews during World War II, many scholars prophesied the end of the Yiddish language,” he noted. Instead, he continued, with its “peculiar mix of toughness and compassion,” Yiddish is “finding new and unprecedented application in American law.”
Joseph, Yiddish only has worth for sentimental reasons. It brings back nice warm memories of the old country (which was far from pleasant, by the way). It also has a very colorful way of expressing certain concepts and descriptions of Jewish life. It does not have holiness. Look, I miss morse code in ham radio which is no longer required for a license. But as much as I love it, I would not call morse code holy.
Those who teach Yiddish today at the expense of having their children become fluent in the native language, cause a difficult cycle of poverty which brings much pain on many families.
Are you allowed to carry a can of white spray paint and spray those who wear colored shirts?
BTW, there is a Mishna which says that if a baal tefila says I will only daven for the amud wearing white, we suspect him of being an apikorus, and he may not daven even if he wears colors. There never was any such mesora to wear white. I was always taught on Shabbos to wear white. Isn’t it a disgrace to Shabbos if we wear white during the week, as well?
Just saw this joke in this week’s Jewish Week. A Jewish man converted to Christianity. The next day he got up and put on his tallis and tefillin. His wife said, Host du nechten geshmad (you just converted yesterday). He smacked his forehead and said, Oy, what a goyishe kup.
Jothar, thanks for the info on Newton. I have written in the past here that he was a truly great man. It is hard to believe what he accomplished in every area of physics and math. He probably was the one who ended the dark ages, and began the scientific revolution (although he acknowledges that everything he accomplished was due to the efforts of those who preceded him). He was a fine baal midos, from what I can determine.
The thing we need to be aware of is that Torah represents menschlachkeit, and that is its whole purpose. Science does not guarantee menschlachkeit. The Nazis were advanced in science and technology. Some scientists are also atheists. This is why science in and of itself is not a worthy goal. Only when one realizes through Torah that there is a Borei and he values chesed and helping others, then one’s study of science can be elevated to a sublime purpose. I find no more worthy purpose than working in a lab trying to ease the suffering of those who are afflicted with certain terrible diseases. Each person needs to find a derech which makes him feel that he is doing the most with his life.
If Torah is studied with the purpose of elevating the world and making shalom among all people, then that is a sublime purpose. However, when it is studied for the purpose of becoming arrogant and putting others down, it is probably better that it had never been studied, as the Mishnah says in Chagiga.
Mod72, Sorry. Didn’t realize there was a whole complex history here.
Jothar, I am not clear on what bracha you believe Rabbi Lamm thinks we should make upon entering a chem lab. If you have a verbatim source, I would like to see it.
I am wondering what the harm is in expanding the definition of Torah to include science, as well. Before everyone calls me an apikorus, please recall, didn’t we recently have a long thread where there were many who claimed that science is in Torah and that Chazal knew modern science? If one can learn science from Torah, why is it different than learning the chochma of the RBSH’s briya from a lab? Also, in Sanhedrin, we find that Rav spent 18 months on a farm to learn the difference between Mum Over and Mum Kavua. Isn’t that type of science considered limud hatorah?
Note that today we have a far more advanced framework of science than they did even 300 years ago. If the Rambam and Reb Saadiah Gaon and other Rishonim studied science and philosophy not for parnasa and it wasn’t bitul torah, then why is it a problem for us, especially if one wants to know Hashem’s briyah, and especially if he wants to cure an illness, thereby?
Mod72, I think you were a bit too hard on HIE, above.
Do we need poll #3 of the day? If you would like to discuss this further, I can be reached at [email protected] – thank you.
EDITED for additional comment: was the following a tad bit too hard also: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/eruv-in-brooklyn/page/3?view=all#post-105279
Just to amplify my point from yesterday. While Reb Michoel Dov Weissmandl was a big tzadik with a pure heart, nevertheless, when you think about how his scheme sounded to others, it is exactly protection money.
The Mafia gets a hold of certain people and demands money, or else they will harm their family or whatever. If they pay up, they will not be hurt. This is one of their major rackets. Besides, what happened to the Mishna in Gittin which says not to ransom captives for huge sums. You have to understand that many Jews said that Jewish money can be used for a permanent solution to build a state which will benefit Jews of all types in the future, and prevent this from happening again, rather than throwing all this money down the drain to the Nazis who may end up using it to kill even more Jews.
Few people would agree that paying protection money is the way to deal with the mob. Most would recommend that the victim go to the authorities and put them out of business and behind bars.
Joseph, I see I have finally gotten across to you.
Jothar, doesn’t the Rambam say in beginning of Mishneh Torah that by pondering the greatness of the briya one will come to Ahavas Hashem? I don’t think Rabbi Lamm is saying any different.
Kilobear, you know Gush Katif was not done for the sadistic purpose of torturing Jews. It was done because Sharon thought the pressure both from within and without was too great to withstand. From within, that many Israelis said how can we have 30,000 soldiers at risk protecting 8,000 settlers. From without, because international pressure even from the USA was getting too hard. Sharon may have felt if I give this up, then they will see how much I have done and we can hold on to the West Bank and Yerushalyim.
Recall that Rabban Yochanan ben Zakai saw that the pressure of the Romans was too great and he gave up YERUSHALYIM! He only asked for Yavneh vchachameha, a hatzala purta, knowing if he asked for more he would get nothing. Was he a bad man, too? You see we are in golus still. If you have questions, ask the RBSH, not Sharon, a mere mortal.
And here you are again with that famous self-contradiction: Zionism is no good because it is not Zionistic enough. The anti-zionists wanted to forego the entire state. You are upset now because we only have 95%?
Finally, if you wanted to keep Gaza, why not work on befriending and being mekarev the secular, and telling them that the RBSH will protect us, even despite the pressure, ki yachol nuchal lah. Had the Chareidim been giving 75 years of friendship and chizuk instead of 75 years of criticism and enmity, maybe the secular would have had bitachon in that crucial time, and maybe they would have no longer been secular in the first place.
Kilobear and others, anybody who blames the Zionists for the holocaust needs to have his head examined. The primary motivation for Zionism was anti-semitism and pogroms which occurred throughout the ages wherever Jews lived. You need to study history 101. The biggest Navi of the last century and a half may have been Herzl himself who predicted severe problems if the Jews don’t get their own State of Refuge and stop being dependent on non-Jewish hosts everywhere for their livelihood and personal safety who on a whim will expel, kill or plunder the Jews at any time. The Zionists went and told Hitler who was a big Jew lover that why not go ahead and kill some Jews. Hitler responded, but they are my friends and I respect them. The Zionists then said, they are out to get you and they stabbed Germany in the back in WW1. Hitler said I don’t believe it. The Zionists then falsified some documents and brought proof that the Jews are the major cause of all problems in Germany and the world. Hitler then sighed and said, this is very hard for me, but if the Zionists tell me that I must kill Jews, I will see if I can possibly make a holocaust. I am a kind man, and I would never hurt anybody, especially handicapped children. After long consideration, Hitler said, maybe I will just advise them to leave Germany. The Zionists said, no, you must kill them. Hitler said, how many, 10, 20? The Zionists said, no, we are talking every last one. Millions of Jews must be killed. With a heavy heart and conscience, Hitler said I will look into this.
Seriously, this is the most idiotic accusation anybody could make up. I have discussed elsewhere on YW that the fact that the Zionists did not want to spend millions of dollars on dubious bribes that in all likelihood would only have bankrupted the Jews even more and then be used to buy more military equipment for the Nazis to kill even more Jews, was a totally reasonable decision. I pointed out that the Nazis lied about every possible thing. They lied about aktions saying they were roll calls, they lied about the gas chambers saying they were showers. You are now going to trust them with millions of dollars???
The Zionists may have correctly figured that bribes are a band-aid approach to anti-semitism. The root of the problem is to have our own government which will never again expel or kill Jews. Very reasonable to me.
EDITED
MW13, First, I am not claiming the modern world is better than the Chareidi world. In fact I said earlier that the modern have problems with improper entertainment. I would also add that the coed shita of some modern schools is problematic, (except where absolute necessity such as extreme financial or parental pressure in an out of town community, for example, does not leave the school with any other choice.)
The chareidi boys for the most part are often more serious and more dedicated to learning than boys in modern schools (big secret, I send my own kids to a chareidi school), but there are very good modern boys as well.
The problem is that no modern person will change his ways as long as the chareidim continue to denigrate the State of Israel and secular studies. The modern looks at them as hateful and primitive because of that and wants no part of that type of yiddishkeit.
Finally, if I saw a modern person in a McDonalds eating a cheeseburger I don’t take it as a reflection of his philosophy. It is simply a yetzer hara. He may feel bad about it, or maybe he lost his job and is angry at G-d, or whatever. It is a human failing. He probably knows it is wrong. However, when chareidim act obnoxious b’shita and trash Yerushalayim, as if they are obligated to do this and they are doing a great mitzva, I feel like throwing up. There is a big difference when you do something terrible and think you are a great tzaddik in the process, than when you know your yetzer hara is getting the better of you. A shita of acting obnoxious or talking obnoxious is totally intolerable and a complete chilul hashem. As I have mentioned before, there are many people in the world who believe that religion is the cause of all wars and violence since the beginning of history. In our daily actions, are we proving or disproving that thesis?
Kilobear, you can make fun all you want, but are you denying that in EY the Chareidi world does not even allow high school? Everybody knows that the biggest Chareidi gedolim were eish lehava against college, going all the way back to Europe. You can reinvent history if you like.
Joseph, MO doesn’t say it is a mitzva to get a secular degree for the sake of the degree. It is a mitzva to make a parnasa. Whatever a person feels comfortable with, and whatever his talents are, he should use them to the fullest. If he feels he needs a BA to become an accountant, then fine. If he wants to become a scientist or academic, then he will usually need a Ph.D. If he wants to be a dentist, he will need to go to dental school. It depends on what he feels he will be the best at, and what his circumstances will allow. The gemara says that just as everybody looks different, they all think differently. So everybody chooses a profession and level of education that suits them the best. It really is very simple.
The only difference between the American Chareidi outlook is that nobody thinks it is assur to go to college and makes you feel guilty about your choice of a path. You know yourself the best and you decide. You don’t go around beating yourself over the head and saying I am a terrible person because I had to go to college and I only did it bdieved and I am so sorry for having to do it, and my Rebbeim will all hate me now.
In MO you do what is the best for your talents and try to make a Kiddush Hashem while you are at it, and nobody criticizes you for it or makes flaming speeches against college as they do in the Chareidi world. Parnasa is not Bitul Torah in any way, so there is nothing to feel guilty about.
Joseph, you manage to dodge my points constantly. I proved above that Reb Moshe, Reb Aharon, Rav Svei and Rav Schach do not condone college in any form: Secular, YU or Touro. They do not allow it for parnasa, either. That is what Reb Moshe called Atzas Reshaim, that people think that they will only get parnasa if they go to college, when they can get good parnasa without it. These are the people who are considered to have Daas Torah by Chareidim.
They do not condone Chareidi doctors, lawyers, dentists, engineers or accountants. Therefore all these supposedly Chareidi people are relying on Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik. So the Chareidi world is again playing games. They denigrate MO and YU and Rabbi Soloveitchik, while they themselves are actually Modern Orthodox and relying only on Rabbi Soloveitchik’s view and not on their own Daas Torah. You haven’t given any response. You yourself cited these gedolim above. So how do you explain all these people who call themselves chareidim and still go to college?
EDITED
MW13, Unfortunately, no. The mainstream chareidi world believes the blood libel against Hadassah (I confirmed with ehrlich chareidim I trust), and in general is rife with anti-zionist views and propaganda. The only difference between the radicals and the mainstream chareidim is the use of physical violence. They both agree on the fundamental philosophy of anti-zionism and both engage in verbal violence and hatred against the State within their institutions.
The entire Chareidi attitude needs to be changed to ahavas yisroel and hakaras hatov towards our secular brethren for all that they do for us. When that fundamental shift occurs, then you won’t see “crazies” going berserk. The Chareidi world needs to realize that they have ignited these “crazies” with their constant bad-mouthing of Medinas Yisroel and all its symbols.
We can do what they do in the navy. Tell them to shape up or ship out.
NYMom and Haifa girl, you should look up some of the other threads here on tznius.
BTW, socks are optional according to Reb Moshe and the Mishna Brura, so the color of the socks does not matter.
EDITED
Joseph, the GRA was entitled to his opinion on philosophy just as was the Rambam entitled to his.
Aryeh3, I doubt that there are millions of Jews today who are Shomer Shabbos. Only about 15% of Jews are frum today.
In Europe, there was constant poverty, decrees, regulations about what professions a Jew was allowed to practice, and of course pogroms and anti-semitism that made life almost unbearable. Do not oversimplify and make it seem that these Jews went off the derech simply because it was more fun to do so. They had nisyonos that hopefully we will never know.
Aryeh3, think about it. When you claim that 6,000,000 Jews have been lost to assimilation, why did that happen? Why did the Reform movement come about in the first place? Maybe because we made yiddishkeit so unpalatable to the masses by insisting on things that are not even halacha, that they all became turned off.
There were fights over speaking any language other than yiddish, studying secular subjects, choirs in shul, dressing in up to date clothing, as opposed to long black coats, etc. All these things have nothing to do with halacha (see Reb Moshe that American garments are not chukos akum). Because no flexibility was shown to many Jews, they said who needs this, and took off for greener pastures. The gemara says l’olam yehei smol docheh vyimin mekarev.
Feivel, from Wikipedia:
At age 17, Rabbi Miller went to New York and attended and graduated from Yeshiva College and RIETS, attaining a B.A. and rabbinical ordination, respectively.
He was elected the student body president at the time, and was also the baal korei.
Rabbi Moshe Bick, known as the Mezubizher Rav, who arrived in the United States in 1927, was one of Rabbi Miller’s early study partners.
One more name to add to the list:
Artscroll is a Modern Orthodox institution, since I believe Rabbi Nosson Scherman went to college. In addition, Jerome Schottenstein is a YU alum, so it is financed by the Modern Orthodox, as well.
Joseph, just for starters, based on your other thread on secular studies, note that Reb Moshe discouraged college EVEN FOR PARNASA. Yes, in his essay Atzas Reshoim his fundamental thesis is that it is possible to find a fine parnasa which doesn’t require college. He discourages medicine, as well.
Based on this, the following individuals were all modern orthodox:
The Rambam, The Ramban, Reb Saadia Gaon (all studied philosophy and/or medicine),
Rav Hutner, the Lubavitcher Rebbe and Rebbetzin David (Rav Hutner’s daughter, the head of Bais Yaakov Yerushalayim). All went to secular colleges.
Rabbi J.D. Bleich.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller is extreme modern orthodox. Not only did he go to college, he quotes the New Testament, the Koran and scientific papers on evolution, all of which contain apikursis.
There is not a single chareidi accountant, lawyer, doctor or engineer in the entire world since they all went to college or higher educational institutions. (I believe these professions all require a degree.) Note that if you see a doctor or lawyer or accountant who claims to be chareidi and wears a hat, that is only a disguise. By definition, he is modern orthodox, since Reb Moshe would not approve of his going to college. All of the above are members of the modern orthodox school of thought of Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik. Reb Moshe makes no chiluk about Touro or YU or secular colleges. He says you will not become a gadol if you go to college, period.
But Joseph, in truth, when reading Reb Moshe, one has to carefully separate the mussar from the halacha. In mussar, Reb Moshe will schrei eish lehava against college. But if you look in the 8th chelek of Igros Moshe, there is a series of teshuvos about college and med school where Reb Moshe says that in truth, according to halacha, even if one is very wealthy, one is allowed to spend all of his time working (except for a short seder at night and in morning) to get even wealthier, and that there is no issur of bitul Torah for parnasa in whatever field he enjoys. I believe he also says that college should be decided on a case by case basis.
So Joseph and Kilobear, if you really believe that the entire frum world can function with only a 7th grade education, you are free to educate your children that way. Most of us know that in these difficult times, the key to being able to survive and pay tuitions and mortgages lies in getting the best possible education.
One final thought. Aside from parnasa, there is probably an inyan of not being an ignoramus about the world around us. My kids went to the mint on Chol Hamoed, and when they came back, they wanted to know why we can’t solve our problems by printing as much money as the country needs. We got involved in a whole discussion (not my field, so I couldn’t give completely precise answers) about inflation, the gold standard of the past, the Weimar republic where a cart full of money was needed to buy a loaf of bread, trade deficits, exchange rates, trading of dollars for Euros or Shekel, etc.
Now suppose a Rabbi would be interviewing for a job in a shul. Somebody asked him a question in Choshen Mishpat, it became apparent he never heard of the mint, did not know what inflation was, did not hear of the stock market, etc. Would he garner the respect of the shul? Even though he doesn’t need secular knowledge for his profession, do you think a shul would respect him or listen to him if he was totally ignorant about the world around him? There is much to be said for secular studies.
Joseph, the Rama in Hilchos Shabbos 308 says one use a telescope and even adjust it. The MB says that one is allowed to learn other chochmos on Shabbos and the minhag is to be meikil. Since one does not do things for parnasa on Shabbos, it must mean one can use the telescope and study secular books for their own sake, to satisfy one’s intellectual curiosity.
In addition, when the Rama says one can study B’Akrai, that is a term which is undefinable. There is no shiur. So it is a matter of judgment. As long as it does not surpass his Torah studies, would probably be OK. Second, if it is for parnasa, then even if it does surpass the time for his Torah studies it is OK.
Kilobear, unfortunately, the pinnacle of generations of Chareidi thought seems to have reached its culmination this summer with the burning of garbage cans and traffic lights in Meah Shearim, and rallies against the most advanced medical facility in Israel. Very nice philosophy, indeed. Quite impressive.
If you don’t see the complete emptiness of this derech of sinas chinam against fellow Jews who worked so hard to establish and maintain a beautiful society in Israel which is flowering in every sense of the word, then you are deliberately turning a blind eye to reality.
If you think that the emesdig Torah derech is to have kids not learn any secular studies past 7th grade, and then to have the Rabbonim who support this system which is wrecking shalom bayis and self-esteem due to the crippling poverty it has left in its wake, attempt to solve the problem not by changing the system, but by writing letters so that the victims can go collecting overseas, then we are on different planets. They ignore the very Shulchan Oruch and Mishnah Berurah which they claim to uphold which states that one can arrange to hire a teacher to teach a trade EVEN ON SHABBOS since the alternative is thievery, if there is no parnasa. How can they sleep at night if this ban on secular studies causes even one family to go hungry?
Furthermore, Rav Hutner said that my students are illiterate in 3 languages: English, Hebrew and Yiddish. Because Chareidi yeshivas make a joke out of secular studies, the students come across to the outside world as primitive and incompetent, which is not conducive to kiddush hashem or kiruv. I doubt Yosef Hatzaddik who ran Mitzrayim sounded like a bumbling, ignorant, fool. Chazal say one needs to know 70 languages to be on the Sanhedrin. The Vilna Gaon said without the 7 chochmos, one can’t properly understand Torah (one of those is music). The Abarbanel was the finance minister in 3 different regimes. I am sure he came across as supremely sophisticated. R. Zundel Salant refused to be supported by Torah, and instead ran a small store, and when he came to Israel, opened a vinegar factory.
Finally, Rav Zevin thunders that Yeshiva boys should go to the army, since Haacheichem yeilchu lamilchama vatem teshvu po? But even if they don’t serve, this system of teaching hatred of their own country and secular brethren is leading to a huge mass of people with no skills other than garbage can burning who constantly foment strife and dissent in klal yisroel. Even within their own groups they are constantly fighting and splitting since they have no real portion in yishuv haolam, and the boredom and emptiness leads to chaos (shiamum in mishnaic terms).
You yourself went to an Ivy League school. Don’t straddle the fence and play both sides of the game at once. Having picked up the tools to write decent sentences and paragraphs, and having been exposed to a broad knowledge base (I don’t know what your major was) you now become a spokesman for the other side and claim that one can function well without a secular education. Sorry, that is dishonest. You are partially a product of the secular education you received. You would not be able to articulate your anti-secular views without this education, so that is a self-contradiction and rather unethical.
As I have written, the main problem with the modern is their possible indulging in improper entertainment. However, they will not listen to any chareidi who tells them otherwise, since they will respond: But you also want me to hate the state of Israel and to give my child a 7th grade education maximum, so you are from some other planet.
Sooner or later the Chareidi world will wake up to the fact that there are very few job ads geared towards 7th graders. They will also hopefully see what their horrendous garbage can burning behavior looks like to the outside world, and cut out the anti-zionism nonsense once and for all. At that point, maybe we will have one standard for Orthodoxy and clear rulings on what is proper and improper entertainment that can be accepted and respected by all Jews. The modern and chareidi camps will merge in achdus using the best of the strengths of each.
I am not passing judgment, I just think you’re stupid.
Yes, you are special, that’s why the men in white coats are coming for you.
Carlebach’s Wake Up Song:
(Hope I have the words right)
Gevalt sh’breeder vos shloft ir
Ein Tsvei Drei Fir
2x
S’iz shoin tzeit tzu zogn Tillim
Ein Tsvei Drei Fir
2x
Nisht kein tillim nor geshlofen
tzu vos toigst du oif der velt
mit vos vesdu kumen oif yener velt?
Gevalt sh’breeder vos shloft ir
Ein Tsvei Drei Fir
2x
S’iz shoin tzeit tzu gain davenen
Ein Tsvei Drei Fir
2x
Nisht kein davenen nisht kein tillim
nisht kein tillim nor geshlofen
tzu vos toigst du oif der velt
mit vos vesdu kumen oif yener velt?
Gevalt sh’breeder vos shloft ir
Ein Tsvei Drei Fir
2x
S’iz shoin tzeit tzu gayn lernen
Ein Tsvei Drei Fir
2x
Nisht kein lernen nisht kein davenen
nisht kein tillim nor geshlofen
tzu vos toigst du oif der velt
mit vos vesdu kumen oif yener velt?
Gevalt sh’breeder vos shloft ir
Ein Tsvei Drei Fir
2x
S’iz shoin tzeit tzu zayn yidden
Ein Tsvei Drei Fir
2x
Nisht kein lernen nisht kein davenen
nisht kein tillim nor geshlofen
tzu vos toigst du oif der velt
mit vos vesdu kumen oif yener velt?
The Sukkele song is the most beautiful song there is. Thanks for posting. It can also be found in the old bencher called the Yavneh Shiron.
Joseph, your proposal that during the 6 days of creation the mazalos moved faster (allowing for more things to occur), but time continued at the same rate (six regular 24-hour periods) has a problem. The pasuk says about the heavenly bodies vhayu l’osos ulmoadim ul’yamim v’shanim. The days and years are linked to the mazalos. If they spin faster, then time moves faster (more years elapse). So you are in essence agreeing that the 6 days were longer than regular days.
Bemused, our “simple logic” has the din of a d’oraysa. Lamah li kra, sevara hu. We with our puny minds carry as much weight as a befeirush pasuk. In addition, the “simple logic” I used is none other than a kal vachomer, which is used numerous times in shas. You see, the RBSH created the Torah, Science, and our minds. If there is a contradiction between any 2 of these, it is a valid question which deserves an answer. By your attempting to put down our minds as if they are worthless, you are insulting the borei who created them and generously gave of his wisdom to mankind.
Kilobear, your general attitude to scientists is disturbing. Furthermore I have noticed a general pattern that you use the same cynicism towards Zionists on other threads, and on a thread about non-Jewish books you expressed the same view with regard to America the Beautiful, which I thought was a beautifully inspiring song of hakaras hatov. Why the constant negativity towards everything? In each case you accused these people of being totally self-serving, and accomplishing nothing of any value. The only people you have praise for are the Neturei Karta and their anthem. It is a shame that you deny yourself the ability to see the good in others.
As far as scientists go, you have no idea how hard it is to identify the role of even a single component of a single enzyme. In vision alone, there must be over 25 monthly journals reporting on what people have found regarding the intricate workings of the eye, often focusing on a single molecule, with many blind people anxiously awaiting any hope of a cure. Do you really believe that all science is about comparing people to animals? You must be mislead by the media which always blows up some new controversial report to get attention while ignoring the real work which scientists slave over.
Joseph, regarding besulim, why does having the status of a besulah require a physical miracle? Why can’t it just be that we give her the status of a besulah, irrespective of what the actual physical metzius is. I have heard similar by a leap year. If a girl’s birthday is in adar and that year is a leap year, the physical changes take place a month later. However, there, too, why not just say that halachically we recognize any activity before that age to be insignificant as far as her later status as a besulah? Please explain the need to invoke any physical issues here. Are they measurable or detectable in any way? In any child, would any expert (religious or secular) be able to tell the difference between a 2.99 yr old and a 3.01 yr old?
Second, as far as other cases of where the Torah stated physical facts which you have claimed are always scientifically accurate, doesn’t the Rambam concede that treifos do live past 12 months, but we still must keep them as treifos, since that is the assumption upon which the halacha is based, and once set, the halacha cannot be changed here?
Another example is that I believe that the gemara says that a premature fetus can survive if born during the 7th month, but not during the 8th month. (This is of course quite puzzling, anyway, since simple logic would dictate that the longer the fetus is carried, the better it will develop.) My question is, is it accepted nowadays that 8th month preemies cannot survive? Is this true? (I don’t remember if this principle is used by animals, humans, or both, but am pretty sure it is in the gemara.)
Squeak, I did not see your recent post about no printer error, when I posted mine about a possible suggested printer error.
Squeak, I still question why in say a very clear Tosfos like in Sukkah 8a where he shows that the 1.4 value is actually less than the true sqrt(2), he doesn’t bring up the Pythag Thm. I am not aware of any mention in classical sefarim of it,, although diagonals are brought up a number of places in shas. I still don’t buy that the Rishonim were aware of it, although, as before, I take back that they made an actual error, since it may be a bad girsa.
Joseph, let me amplify my earlier post to you of “singing to the choir”. Suppose you were running a kiruv seminar and advertised that the Talmudic Rabbis knew modern science. You get a large crowd, and really have their interest piqued. The people are anxious for some proof. They expect some discussion of inventions and some slides showing advanced physics and math. They are all excited. Instead, you say, “Folks you know what the proof is, Rabbi B says that Rabbi A knew science. Rabbi C says we must believe everything Rabbi B said. Rabbi D once referred to Rabbi C as the wonder of the generation who knew everything. Rabbi E says that anybody who doubts Rabbi C is a complete heretic. This concludes my presentation.”
Joseph, have you made a convincing case to these non-religious people? They are not interested in what Rabbis say about other Rabbis. They want you to show them the pudding. You need to come up with specific examples of advanced science, not long lists of quotes.
Interestingly, the Chazon Ish in Emuna uBitachon tries to do that, and shows some sources, like the fact that in Tanach, they removed the spleen of runners to make them go faster. The Egyptians also used to sterilize horses by removing the womb (or maybe cows, don’t remember) to make it harder to breed them so they could keep prices high. Also, a few other examples. He tries to say that earlier generations in general did not try to invent, just to study chochma. However, I am not at all sure I buy this argument.
Finally, let me openly state my negiah here. My point in being skeptical about this principle that the gedolim knew science from Torah, is because it is a convenient excuse for denying a generation any secular knowledge, and telling them they can know everything they need even if they don’t complete more than 7th or 8th grade, as long as they learn. The kids are told that ignorance is a virtue, and are crippled when they enter the job market. Then the rabbonim are only too happy to write them a letter to carry around saying they need support from the klal. I simply don’t believe it. However, if one can find me a single knowledgeable gadol today in science or math who did not study it from secular sources, but only from Torah, I will eat my hat. (I don’t wear a hat, but I will go out and buy one especially to eat. I will serve an entire seudah of hat to many guests.)
First, SJsinNYC, a big Mazel Tov on the baby. May you have much nachas.
Second, Squeak, After having a chance to look at the gemara in more detail on Shabbos, I will take back my post, but for a different reason. It is clear the language of the Rashbam and Tosfos is completely megumgam, so I don’t know if we even have the correct text of either. (Note, in general, to change a girsa is very difficult to say, and borders on heresy, but for the honor of the rishonim, I think it can be done here. The Rashbam at first mentions that the 5×5 has a diagonal of 8, which even according to the gemaras well-known approxiimation that sqrt(2) =1.4, is wrong, and should read 7. Then he says that a 6×6 has diagonal 8.4, which seems totally irrelevant to the flow. He then brings in the 5×5 again. Possibly, a printer confused the shnei chumshin of the 8.4 with shnei chamishin (5×5). Maybe the Rashbam was trying to use 6×6 as a rough estimate of 4×6 (not 5×5), and say that it equals about 8, as well. (This would be a pshat in the Rashbam’s chada shiura, 4×6~6×6, they share a common dimension.)Then Tosfos fits very well. He first draws a picture of a 4×4 within a 4×6. He shows that the 4×4 has diag 5.6, and adding the two additional amos to get 4×6, means that at maximum, the diagonal of the 4×6 is 7.6, so how could the Rashbam say 8? Plus, if you use the direct diagonal in his picture, rather than the 2-step diagonal, kol shechain that it is less than even 7.6. Then in the second half of Tosfos one would have to change the girsa as well and say that 6×6=36 which is more square amos than 4×6=24 so for that reason, as well, the 6×6 is greater than the 4×6. So we can possibly defend both, but need to change girsos quite a bit.
However, merely because I initially said Chazal didn’t know how to calculate the diagonal is not an insult to Chazal, it just means they weren’t familiar with Pythagoras’s theorem. It is not an insult to say about current physicists that they don’t know cold fusion. It hasn’t been done yet. Note also, that in my original post I didn’t say Chazal didn’t know how to measure with a string, I said one can verify the Pythag thm with a string. In our case, differentiating the diag of a 4×6 from a 5×5 with string would be very hard, as they are so close, only a few percent apart.
Finally, in my second post above it should say that the 1×12 has diag *almost* twice the 5×5, not *more than*.
Squeak, I read your whole post, but you know that deliberately approximating the molad and the value of pi or the square root of 2 to simplify calculations, which I completely accept, does not seem to be comparable to what the Rishonim were discussing in Bava Basra. Tosfos seems to say that the diagonal of a 4×6 rectangle is less than that of a 5×5. If he wanted to approximate, why not agree with the Rashbam who, one could for arguments sake, say that he chose a 5×5 as an approximation to a 4×6, since it is a nice round number.
But Tosfos argues and says that the Rashbam is wrong, and that the diagonal of a 4×6 is actually less than a 5×5, since a 5×5 has 25 [square] amos, while a 4×6 has 24 [square] amos. But, in reality, the 4×6 has a longer diagonal. So while you could in theory defend the Rashbam with your approach (gemara sometimes says lo dak), however, when Tosfos comes to differ and complain that the Rashbam’s value is not exact enough, and instead gives a different value which it turns out is even more inexact and in the wrong direction, then there is a problem. In addition, we both know that using the area of a rectangle is not a good way of gauging the diagonal, since for example a 1×12 rectangle would have a diagonal more than twice that of a 5×5, even though its area is less than half.