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Rosh Hashana
Let us see if we can work out a compromise here. We must agree that there is nothing wrong with any garment that covers the required halachic areas. There may be other reasons why a person would or should wear better clothes. For instance, I never wear blue jeans or shorts , since I don’t think it is bkovodig. However, there is certainly no halachic reason why blue jeans should not be worn.
Instead of calling these issues tznius, which they are not, maybe they should go under another name. I have no clue what cap sleeves are or what slingback shoes are. Nevertheless, if a person feels demeaning when wearing them, then by all means don’t. If you want a higher level of professionalism, then wear better clothes. However, do not look down at people who follow halacha. Do not look down at people who do not follow halacha either. I have very good friends who do wear jeans and shorts. To each his own.
If a woman wants to wear short sleeves over long sleeves, then why not? If she feels it is too casual, or makes her feel silly, and she has a responsible position, or even just for her personal tastes, then don’t. However, let us not drag tznius into this, as it is strictly a matter of taste.
I used to learn with some beginners who were not yet frum, and one had much trouble with the concept of kiddushei ktana. I tried to explain, it is not recommended, but yet suppose a father was very sick, and had little money to leave, but at that time could afford to make a wedding. The family knew a wonderful boy from a wonderful family, and the only way they could be sure she would ever get married would be if they married now. It is better to use this avenue, then for her to be an orphan with no money and very few shidduch prospects later on. It sometimes depends on the situation. If she gets married now, she may be set for life.
Mrs. Beautiful, the business about flashy is exactly the point. Many people would say that shortening the skirt to get rid of the slit (as someone suggested) is 100 times more flashy and far worse from a tznius point of view. We really need to leave our opinions out and follow what the halacha says, which is that the knee and above must be covered at all times. Anything else is a pure invention of the person making the statement, reflecting his or her own personal fashion tastes. We simply cannot have halacha based on subjective opinions.
My daughter once brought home a camp list saying that the zipper or the pockets were forbidden or had to be only in the front or only in the back, and I don’t even remember which way now, since it was so arbitrary. I actually aggravated my daughter telling her some of her skirts were improper, and should now ask mechila, since after researching the matter, there was nothing wrong. It was just a figment of the camp director’s imagination.
Same thing with my son’s clothing guide for yeshiva saying that bobby pins were forbidden. I firmly believe that if we would put in half as much energy into following real halachos as into imaginary ones, moshiach would have come already.
I think the reason why people are maikil on Shabbos clocks, is that we know there is a machlokes Bais Shammai and Bais Hillel regarding Shevisas keilim. Beis Hillel says you are allowed to turn on your sprinkler before Shabbos and water your lawn all Shabbos, and many other cases in the Mishna in the first perek of Shabbos. Rav Moshe said now that we have Shabbos clocks, technically one could run his entire factory or business on Shabbos with automated machines, and not be in violation, but would certainly be non-Shabbosdig. He says that although there is no issur, he is sure that chazal would have been gozer. This is a tremendous chidush, as we normally say that we have no power to make new gezeiros since the close of the gemarah. It is a very extreme svara. He says we can use it for lights, since the Rov Olam does, and it is not for business, but mainly to help people sleep (I believe, since haven’t seen teshuvah recently). Possibly people feel that air-conditioners are not unshabbosdig, and they can’t afford to have them running when they are not needed. Maybe, anyway, the thermostat is no different than a Shabbos clock, as it also turns on and off the motor when needed. So since it is not a commercial item, but just for comfort, people are maikil. However, to actually run a business of some kind on Shabbos by remote control, probably most people would follow Rav Moshe and not do it.
That sounds like total wolfkeit.
On YW we bash each other all year round, and it’s free. I think that is a better deal.
Oh My Gauss!
To make all print bigger, go to the View menu on the top if Internet Explorer, select Text Size, and then choose however you like it.
Oy vey, women drivers, oy vey. (Not halachically, just practically.) When I am behind a women driver, I know my trip will take 3 times as long. Don’t even get me started on this subject. Oy vey.
Joseph, not a good dimyon. Adding material can never decrease the level of tznius. There is no way that a 40 inch long skirt (for arguments sake) can be more tzniusdig than a 46″ long skirt with a 6″ long slit. Simply no way.
Q: What starts with a J, has an FEM in the name, and always gets into trouble?
WhyDoIEvenBother, I did not make this up. Please check out Halichos Bas Yisroel where the topic of tznius is discussed according to the poskim. The MIshna Berura states that one must only cover from the knee and above. When did following the MB become unacceptable? The discussion is based on the words zroa and shok. I totally agree that one who follows the more stringent definition that the shok includes the calf could not permit a slit. But then one must require ankle length skirts. However, to say that we follow the MB’s opinion that the shok is the thigh, and then come along and say that true, the skirt must only reach to below the knee (with a margin), however, if it contains a slit below that point it is treif is totally irrational. It is a simple kal vachomer that if the entire skirt could be missing below the margin and be kosher, then if just a slit is missing, and the rest is there, it is certainly kosher. Again, if your posek holds skirts must be ankle length, then come out and say it. But this is not what I have seen in camp clothing lists, where this silly contradiction in logic exists that they must only cover the knee, but slits are forbidden. The only logic there is that they are concerned about some styles where the slit goes far above the knee, and hence forbid all slits.
EyesOpen, the reason why I am so against creating new chumras, is that the primary problem facing the klal is the terrible fighting and sinah amongst groups. Conceivably a girl wearing a kosher slit could now find herself the target of acid throwers, or bus-beaters if this misconception is allowed to circulate. One who follows the mishna berura should not have to fear these loonies who are all too common these days. (Even one who does not follow the halacha correctly should not have to fear these loonies either.)
Even aside from that, why must we make divisions in the klal, where if a girl wears something kosher that is not what is worn in XYZ community, she should be the object of derision, not our type, more modern, etc.
As far as Bas Melech, one who follows the halacha is a Bas Melech. We do not have the authority to make up arbitrary rules not based in halacha and declare that one who does not keep them is inferior. I have seen on camp lists that the very long floor dragging skirts are also treif. Somebody decided that is not the yeshivishe thing to do, and invented a new halacha or minhag by which to look down on the other. In fact it has as much significance in the eyes of the RBSH as the color of a man’s suit or shirt, which is zero.
Reb Jent, all of the sudden you are a big maikil? Can a leopard change his spots?
NotPashut, what you write is almost kefirah. I can’t believe any Rov would say that we have a right to change Hilchos Shabbos to serve as a method of crowd control. It borders on total sheker. Where is the midas haemes? If you feel people shouldn’t congregate or dress up, then tell them not to. But to twist an unrelated halacha to serve your end seems totally intellectually dishonest.
Why not say that making hakafas in shul in Simchas Torah is a Christian minhag in order to get the women who bring there kids to stay home. If you feel they should stay home (which I don’t and don’t think anybody does, but just as an example), then be honest and tell them to stay home. Don’t tell them a sheker that it is a Christian minhag to achieve your purpose, when in fact it is a holy Jewish minhag.
This is a perversion of the entire Torah and midas haemes.
Today, you can get a gallon of regular milk for 3.59 Cholov yisroel costs about 5.59 for 2 half-gals. Many people cannot afford the extra 2 dollars. The gemara has a number of cases where the amoraim threatened that if the merchants didn’t lower prices, they would pasken the most lenient shita so people could buy elsewhere. (Hadasim for lulav, certain dishes for pesach.) That very well could apply here. Why does having a Jew on premises add 50% to the price? Please explain.
Slits being a problem has no basis in halacha. The requirement is that the knees and above be covered at all times. Most people feel that you need an extra few inches so that the knees are covered when sitting, as well. So any slit that ends 3 inches below the knees is totally fine, as the entire skirt could end there. Anyting you do below the 3 inch line is OK. You can have a slit, you can have elaborate cutouts, you can eliminate everything, you can cover down to your toes, you can embroider a picture of your dog, whatever you do is fine, as long as everything is covered above the 3 inch point.
We have enough halachas, why invent new ones?
“No one goes to that restaurant anymore. It’s too crowded.”
-Yogi Berra
“Once a feminist, always a feminist, and always looking for more trouble.”
-Pashuteh Yid
Joseph, please look up Ig”M OC 4, siman 87 where Reb Moshe does not want to come out and say an Eruv in Brooklyn is assur, just that he personally believes it is. However, in Siman 88, he seems to be more definitive after being shown an exact map of Brooklyn.
Notpashut, I have not been following this whole discussion, but seem to vaguely recall that Reb Moshe writes that even though he has his opinion on the flatbush eruv (machmir), he has no problem with a Rov who disagrees and paskens to be maikil.
“The whole world is waiting for Jews to be Jews.”
-Reb Shlomo Carlebach
I just went to a very heimisheh yeshivisheh black hat chasuna last night in Brooklyn,with aller choshuveh Rabbonim, and every single woman there had a sheitel. So how is it possible that anyone could suspect that klal yisroel as a whole is doing wrong? Clearly this is how the am is noheg, and zehu, end of story. Bmakom shehalacha refuyah byadcha pok chazi mai ama dvar.
One thought about current sheitels. Many seem to express displeasure with the most recent sheitels because they are very long. But think about it. Why were they shorter 15 years ago? The reason was not because they were more tzniusdig then, it was exactly the opposite. It was because the styles were shorter then, and short was considered *more* attractive than long. The same was true of single girls’ hair, and maybe even in the non-Jewish world, as well. The sheitels were no worse looking than now, for people who lived through that era. There were no sudden advances in sheitel technology the past 15 years. Styles simply became longer, and in a few years will probably become shorter, just like men’s ties which go from thick to thin all the time. To say that long sheitels are less tzniusdig than short sheitels simply seems arbitrary, and not in conformance with how women choose. If Reb Moshe had no problem with the most stylish sheitels of his day, it seems a stretch that he would have a problem with the most stylish sheitels of today. Nowhere does he caution that everything he writes only holds true if they are not too long or nice. He explicitly states that even in his day many couldn’t tell the difference between a sheitel and actual uncovered hair, and he says that this doesn’t matter.
Any town which doesn’t have 5 kosher pizza shops is strictly minor league, and shouldn’t even be mentioned here on YW.
Rabbosai, some people can’t afford shoes. If that is the case, maybe some of us could help out in some way here.
Jfem, I have cheppered (teased) you many times, but I hope you realize that it was only a joke. I plan to continue to do so in the future.
Look up Igros Moshe YD 2, Siman 88 who states that even those who asur sheitels, only do so because of maris ayin, but there is no issur.
Also see Igros Moshe EH 2 Siman 12, that the majority of poskim permit it including the Rama, the Magen AVrohom, the Pri Megadim, and seemingly the GRA, and that their reasoning seems correct. He goes on to say that a husband has no right to forbid his wife from wearing a sheitel. He also says that if you are choshesh for this type of maris ayin, then you would not be allowed to shave, as people might suspect you use a blade. He says that even if you do not shave, you still may not force your chumra on your wife and she can still wear a sheitel.
ALso look up the Gemara Taanis 23b quoted by Reb Moshe in the first tshuva that the wife of the great tzaddik Abba Chilkiya the grandson of Choni Hameagel would go out into the streets all dressed up with jewelry, etc. to greet him at the city limits when he came back from work. THe gemara praised this because by having his wife dress up so nicely (in public), he would not think of other women. Also note that when he came to his house, first his wife went in, then he went in, then all the rabbanim who came to ask him to daven for rain.
So the bottom line is that according to Reb Moshe, there is absolutely no problem, and probably most of us in the USA follow Reb Moshe as our posek.
Reb Moshe said sheitels are ok, because even thought they are designed to look like human hair, women can always tell the difference.
I have difficulty understanding how very pretty sheitels can be asur, wince we have a klal used in the gemara of im kein nasata devarecha lshiurin, meaning where are you going to draw the line. Who can certify that this sheitel is not over attractive, but this one is. It is impossible to have a halacha where there is no way to objectively define what is ok and what is not. In all areas we have rigid measurements, like 4 tefachim for a lulav, 40 seah for a mikvah, but a wishy washy or subjective measure can never work.
Even the synthetic sheitels of 25 years ago were better than many women’s own hair, yet nobody had a problem. This issue is not at all clear cut.
Will, wow, I never realized that an Arab govt was more benevolent than our own Jewish govt in EY. Does this also refer to the benevolent govt of Hamas? What about the benevolent govt of Saudi Arabia which doesn’t even let Christians worship, let alone Jews? What about the benevolent Taliban govt which let the benevolent Osama bin Laden benevolently blow up the World Trade Center. The Arab world is a very benevolent place.
I insist on being called the Right Honorable Pashuteh Yid.
ZFB, I hear what you are saying, and it is nice, but suppose a non-Jew needed the money because he was going to research a new approach to cancer, and the girl needed it for a magazine, am I violating ahavas chinam if I vote for the research?
Jfem, I personally don’t think that just because feminists are posting on YW it is any reason to flee America. However, there may be others who disagree.
I voted, but it really didn’t seem proper to me, although I am familiar with the magazine for a few years already. Why should we be helping one contestant over another, just because we have a better network of friends via the jewish sites? On the other hand, why any company would award a prize based on an internet popularity contest is beyond me.
Jfem, it roughly translates to, “Now that feminists have invaded YW, the world is coming to an end.” (It loses something in the translation.)
Gila, there are a number of different types. Some could be a wake-up call, but others are called yisurin shel ahava. Sometimes a person must go through a hardship so that if he still keeps the mitzvos despite the difficulty, he gets a much greater reward, because of the principle of l’fum tzaara agra (in accordance with the pain is the reward).
There are many tzaddikim who suffered terribly, and these were yissurin shel ahava. Since we never know what the source of a person’s suffering is (only the person himself can know if he did anything that needs fixing), we therefore are never allowed to say or think that because he did x he got y. Only a navi can know the truth about another person. Our job is only to have rachmanus and do whatever we can to help the afflicted individual, never to judge.
YW Editor, I recommend you add a Fight button, so we can fight with each other much faster and more efficiently than we do now.
Illini, would you also vote for an Arab MK in Israel, if he promised he would be good friends to the Jews? Would you want him knowing all Israel’s nuke and military secrets?
Lgbg, I would either search for the NJ site to verify registration, or else call up your election office, or else just go down and see if they have you on the list. As far as on-line voting, I think for now the country does not think it is secure enough and sufficiently tamper proof, so they have not instituted it.
JFem, I never knew that they allowed feminists to vote. When did this happen?
To all: There are now strict rules that all men must wear black and white, and all women must wear a sheitel or snood at the polling places. You will also be tested on 10 daf gemara. Anybody not dressed properly will be immediately sent home. No exceptions. This is the law.
Lgbg, you can’t vote, it is just a guide to whose running and the issues. You need to look up your info at one of the official NJ Board of election sites (you are in Lkwd, right?). For NY there is a nice site which you can use to see if your voter registration is current, and where to vote and your various districts. If you are not currently registered, I don’t think there is anything you can do to vote today.
Found the following guide online which does not seem to be totally complete, but claims to be non-partisan. SmartVoter.Org
YW Editor, I’ll take over. (My rate is only $10,000/hr.)
Seriously, can anybody give a link to a nice voter’s guide for NYC that includes all the smaller races, who the candidates are, and what they hold?
What is so sad is that is that some polls are saying that 60-80% of Jews will vote for Obama. These freier yidden have no conception of Zionism, that Israel belongs to us, and therefore if a president plans to force Israel to give up Jerusalem and the West Bank, that is correct social justice. What is even sadder is that the Chareidim basically agree with that idea, (although they will not generally vote for Obama). This is just another example of the total confusion and self-contradiction of Chareidi hashkafa. Ideologically, as far as Zionism, they hold like the freier.
Eric, I disagree with you.
Illini, the fact that he goes to church does not contradict that he may be a believing Muslim. Do you not admit the possibility, albeit remote, that he may be infiltrating our system by pretending to be Christian?
In addition, another thought. THe church he attended was, as I mentioned before, a place where the minister spewed forth viciously anti-AMerican slogans. Now, if Obama were a descendant of slaves, and his family had been mistreated, and not allowed to vote, and confined to slums, etc., while we may not agree that such an anti-American attitude is correct, we could at least be understanding of why he feels that way. But in fact, his family came over from a poor country seeking a better life, and his father was given a free eductation at Harvard, I believe, and Obama had all kinds of doors opened to him, a poor immigrant. Is such a negative attitude acceptable, such a lack of hakaras hatov, and a slap in the face to the country that gave you everything?
The Queen of Persia, are you serious about insurance? Reb Moshe says life insurance is OK. Do you not have insurance on your house or car?
Illini, many of his immediate relatives have Muslim names, I believe even one of his daughters. Since he is interested in American politics, he may have decided to play down his Muslim connections, but we really do not know what he truly believes. In addition, there must be some reason why the Muslim world is so ecstatic about his candidacy. How any Jew can take a chance on him is beyond me. I agree he speaks well, and seems to be sincere, but we really don’t know much about him. Would you enter into a business agreement with somebody with ties to all kinds of shady characters? If a person with his background called you on the phone and asked for your social security number because he has a good deal for you, would you trust him? The president of the USA will have access to all kinds of top-secret info, like the codes for the nukes, where they are stored, the structure of our military installations, secret communication systems and channels, where our submarines are located at any time, just for starters. How can the country turn over this info to a total unknown with almost no experience, whose loyalty to our nation is suspect, having attended a church where the minister chanted G-d D— America?
I think something is seriously wrong with the seichel of many American voters. Have they thought about how serious this is? The economy doesn’t come close in importance to national security. Poor people can survive, but being blown to bits by an enemy is far worse. Did we forget the twin towers already?
If this is not the riskiest decision anybody ever made, I don’t know what is.
Only kidding, can’t you tell?
There is a teshuvah in Igros Moshe that says that just as with mitzvos like shofar and lulav, women can optionally put on a tallis. However, it depends on her intentions. If to really acquire extra kedusha or zchus, then it is ok. But if it is just to show that she is the same as a man, then not ok.
At any rate, I have always wondered why women would feel inferior when they have the mitzva of raising the next generation of yidden. Why is that less important or meritorious than wearing black boxes or a woolen cloth?
JewishFem, since women have no yetzer hara (especially feminists), tznius is not necessary for men.