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Best Ima, Your Bentley should be gebentched.
Mod-80, some of those things in your list are worthy, and others are not. It is difficult to know what exactly is the right thing for a Jew at any given moment.
For example, I doubt any Chareidi yeshivos in Israel have any organized sports, or even a gym to play in. Yet, it is pretty well-accepted that getting exercise is necessary for good health. All modern orthodox schools encourage sports in one way or another.
I am willing to bet that most Chareidim in the USA follow sports to some extent, and all have heard of Babe Ruth, etc. To a Chareidi in EY, the Chareidim in the USA are modern orthodox.
So there is really no definition of modern. It is how much we take from the outside world in conducting our lives. We many not dress in black and white, but we often have tzitzis out, and all of us, except in rare circumstances, wear yarmulkas. SO we don’t hide our Judaism, but we try to dress in whatever way is considered dignified in the current times. That is how we interpret lo shinu es malbusham, dignified, and with tznius, not necessarily black and white.
We speak a pure English, not mixed in with all kinds of Yeshivishe and Yiddish words. But we speak with refinement. That is Lo shinu es leshonam, the manner of speech, not the language itself. With kindness, patience and staying away from nivul peh, etc. We do not believe one needs to speak Yiddish to be frum.
As far as movies or novels, one would hope that one reads kosher books, or sees kosher and educational films, not containing inappropriate scenes. Yet, we don’t say all movies and books and TV are asur. It is a case by case basis. I let my kids watch a little sports, and I like to watch election debates and returns. Once in while there may be an educational show worth watching. I personally believe that most TV is a waste of time, yet I don’t subscribe to the view that TV is a toevah and forbidden. it all depends on the use. Same with a phone. One can call bad places or good places. And of course the internet is a far bigger problem than phones and TV. Yet we use internet, and try to maintain self-control not to go to bad sites. I believe most Chareidim in the USA also use internet. So this further proves that USA Chareidim are really modern orthodox. They also go to concerts, etc.
Many Chareidim in the USA also go to college in some form or another. The entire Agudah membership is baalei batim many of whom are professionals, i.e., doctors, lawyers, accountants. All of these require degrees. So USA chareidim like to denounce the MO, when they themselves are far more like the MO than like the Israeli Chareidim.
So it is all a matter of where one draws his own personal line. There really is no line. As far as denim, many Chareidim in the USA also wear denim, especially on Sundays, or if they are in professions requiring manual labor. I see them wearing a hat and jacket over the denim and T-shirts all the time.
BTW, do you really believe that American Chareidim are less likely to have visited an inappropriate web site than MO are? A person’s yiras shamayim is a private and personal struggle and has nothing to do with labels.
I would not get any music player that has video capabilities. You may be ruining him for life.
Brisker, why are you asking kashas? There is a diffent thread for that.
Remember, there is a strict YWN policy that all recipes must be tasted and signed off by a male over the age of 13 before being posted.
I have always wondered whether this inyan of the nails causing a miscarriage is a simple sakanah, i.e., the woman may be sharply pierced and jump or become startled or suddenly frightened; or whether it is a kabbalistic reason that has nothing to do with a natural danger.
As far as the first possibility, I believe the gemara has a story about a woman who miscarried when she heard a dog bark.
Does anybody know what “Modern Chareidi Zionist” means?
This thread should be linked to the potching thread a few months earlier. (Just kidding.)
Why not go more than a misheberach, and every time you see an IDF soldier give him a hug and tell him how much he means to you, and what a great zchus he has to protect the klal. Maybe slowly you’ll see a diminishing of the animosity between the secular and chareidi. Why not make a dinner in honor of the IDF and dance with the soldiers?
Reb Aryeh Levin once told a street sweeper he was jealous of his olam haba, because he has the mitzvah of keeping the streets of Yerushalayim clean at 5:30 am every morning. He begged him to let him use his broom.
It is still unfathomable to me how anybody can think we are worse off with the Medinah than we were without it. If someone can explain, please do so.
Regarding the title, if you send the babies to Harvard, I am sure they will be taught to fall asleep. Any decent school can probably provide this training for a minimal fee.
Bezalel, what’s good for the goose is good for the gender.
HillelLeib, Yasher Koach for a beautiful letter. May you continue to do this wonderful work for the klal.
There is no such thing as the State’s viewpoint. Israel is a democracy, and the “State” is nothing more than the will of the majority of the people who live there. In fact, the average Jew in Europe was thrilled about the idea of having our own place, and getting away from the tyranny of the anti-semitic rulers.
There is a mayseh with the Brisker Rav who did not want to say some tefila or misheberach for the Zionist movement in his shul in Brisk. (I don’t remember what it was.) That was a big chiddush, because every one of the other 20 or so shuls in the city said it. Zionism was a popular movement that spread throughout the klal on its own wings. Who would deny that being a homeowner is better than being a renter who can be thrown out and forced to do whatever the landlord wants, at any time. Sure, a homeowner must foot the responsibility for repairs and pay the mortgage, but everybody knows the American dream is to have one’s own house which he can run as he sees fit.
This is such a pashuteh sevara, coupled with the religious attachment to Israel that all Jews have, even the unaffiliated, who say Lshanah Habaah Beyerushalayim twice a year since they also observe YK and the Seder for the most part. The movement took hold like wildfire, and there were hundreds of Rabbonim who backed it.
When the Jews came out of the concentration camps, they were singing Hatikvah. There is a tape of this on Wikipedia. They were not singing the Neturei Karta song.
It is actually stunning that there still are people who believe that we are worse off, or did something wrong in this mass kibutz galyos. It is almost impossible to fathom. In fact, any law or hashkafah that you don’t like about the medinah can easily be changed. Just be mekarev enough people and have them vote to change the law. You can make a law that men need to go to the mikvah everyday and wear a streimel at all times. The possibilities are limitless. (Shlomo Carlebach actually wanted to make a law that everybody was required to dance 3 times a day.)
EDITED
HaLeivi, I hear what you are saying.
WIY, so if somebody is ugly and asks to make a shidduch, you tell him he is ugly? If he has a low IQ, you tell him he is stupid? Just stating the facts??? Why not say, I don’t think it will work out.
One point of advice. When looking to lose weight, watch what skinny people eat. I have noticed at work that quite a few skinnny oriental types eat huge bowls of meat and rice with other veggies for lunch. They are far from going hungry, yet stay skinny. This leads me to believe that rice is less fattening than say pasta.
One additional comment regarding those who say the state was a failure because it cost some Jewish lives. Why not ask the people who sacrificed their lives for the Medinah like Dov Gruner who said beferush that he would do it all over again, even knowing he would get caught and hanged.
I can’t imagine a single fallen IDF soldier or his family saying that they regret the state and it was not worth it, and it would have been better if we had no state. Nor would any of the terror victims say that they would have preferred to live under the Arabs in EY, or the Germans or Poles in Europe, rather than having our own state.
So those who sit on the sidelines and claim it was not worth Jewish lives, are not the ones to make that judgment. Those who actually fought to create and defend the Medinah are the ones who willingly put themselves at risk for the cause, and I am williing to bet that every single one of these giborim felt it was worth it for the good of the klal.
Hmmm, Yaakov Avinu and Moshe Rabbeinu met their wives on their own, as did Dovid meet Batsheva. Secondly, as pointed out, dating that could potentially lead to marriage is not what Reb Moshe was pointing out. He was writing about an elementary school or HS kid. Even in coed high schools, many have met their spouses, and gotten married later, so there is always a possibility of eventual marriage.
Does anybody seriously believe here that meeting one’s wife on his own is an issur? (The gemara which says mekadesh blo shidduchin refers to meeting somebody and eloping on the spot.) If one meets and then plans a wedding with full parental and family involvement, that is not a problem. I have heard of cases of Yeshiva boys and girls who gave one another a ride to a simcha and ended up getting engaged. It is so ludicrous to think one cannot meet somebody by chance anywhere. That is how Hashem runs the world. Many BT families have no connections in the shidduch world, and their kids have to meet somebody at a social event or similar. A number of years back there was a frum singles social group (forgot name) where there were Rebbbetzins floating around to introduce if people were interested in somebody there.
WIY, I dilute about 25%-33% Tropicana OJ in water. It is great tasting, not too sweet or fattening, and much cheaper. Try it.
Keep your windshield clean, inside and outside. Will solve most problems.
I have a different kashya. There is a Rashi which says Eliezer really wanted to marry off his own daughter to Avraham. Avraham told him I am boruch and you are arur, v’ein arur misdabek bvaruch. I am troubled by this strong and possibly hurtful language. Especially about a choshuveh person like Eliezer about whom it says Yafeh sichoson shel avdei avos yoser mitoroson shel banim.
MDD, thanks. I was going to point out the same thing. Hertzl himself predicted there would be major problems in galus, unless we get our own state. Not long after his passing, began the holocaust. The whole raison d’etre of the Zionists was anti-semitism. Had everything been fine and dandy in galus, would these non-religious people have given a thought about EY?
Hakatan, did the Yishmaelim not earn the title of Pereh Adam long before the Zionists?
Finally, please read my quote from the Tzitz Eliezer who lauds the Zionists. I cited this in the apikorus thread a few weeks back.
I would further add that these wonderful righteous Muslims never would think of blowing up a building in NY and killing 3,000. They would never blow each other up on a daily basis all over their area of the world with suicide bombs going off so often that its 30 people dead one day, 80 the next, 120 on a bad day. They don’t hijack planes, and fight civil wars with each other such as Iraq vs. Iran which killed a million Muslims. They don’t celebrate their holy days by Sunnis killing Shiites at their mosques. They don’t kill Russian schoolchildren in school. They are just too fine and morally upstanding to do these things. Not a bloodthirsty instinct in them.
Helpful, you are not making a drop of sense. Are you saying that the Muslims are bigger tzaddikim then the Christians? You seem to be saying that nothing Jews did caused the Christians to slaughter us. Thye are simply reshaim. However, the holy Muslims would never have slaughtered us if not for the Zionists.
1) Where on earth did you get this chiluk that one of the umos haolam/religion is innately better than the other as far as midos/morality goes? Can you show a sefer which states this?
2) Have you ever opened up a history book and read about what a fine person Mohammed was who personally deceived and slaughtered Jews, and wrote a Koran which is filled with statements inciting to kill Jews? Were there Zionists in the 7th century? What planet are you living on?
3) Your statement that the entire Zionist experiment failed is based on what exactly? They are a virtual superpower militarily, scientifically, economically, and in purity of arms and ethics in the way they respect human life, even of the enemy. They have regained access to the mekomos hakedoshim, and yeshivos and shuls have flourished like never before. If that is a failure, I would be hard pressed to define success.
It is obvious you have been brainwashed with anti-zionism and simply repeat rubbish you have been told without thinking about it even for a moment. I myself heard the same nonsense, until one day I thought about it and realized how it is such a stupendous success that it is a nes goluy. Go with your own two eyes, rather than the poisonous vitriol you have been fed.
Darchei Noam, say what? The Arabs have killed more than the Christians??? The Christians in the 40’s killed 6 million, whereas in the last 150 years, the Arabs have killed less than 25,000.
BTW, if we are to blame for the Arabs killing, are we also to blame for the Christians killing? Who do we blame for the Crusades and Inquisition and Tach vTat? The convenient Zionist scapegoats were not around yet. Not even YU existed then.
Myfriend, there are already tefilos for that. One of the Yehi ratzons on Mon Thurs is lkayem banu chachmei yisroel.
On Shabbos the first yekum purkan is for those learning. ALso, the kaddish drebanan is similar.
Just wanted to further explain earlier comment. The Chareidi world has decided that the best and only suitable time for Yiddishkeit is in the 1700’s. That was the ideal time to be a Jew. So they take the approach that we should try to convince bochurim that we really are living in the 1700’s. We dress the same way as then, we avoid studying the science and math of today, we ignore the State of Israel as if it doesn’t exist. We give shiurim in Yiddish which was spoken then. They simply have not been able to come to grips that times have changed.
But many bochurim realize that we are no longer living in 1700’s and they have been given no guidance on how to deal with the issues of today. They are very confused.
The modern also do not have clear ideas on how to avoid the improper parts of today’s culture, and are all too willing to accept everything, rather than to discriminate. Neither the all or nothing approaches are correct. But nobody has really been able to define a livable and halachically correct path. In EY for example, all sports are avoided for the most part. So they have no secular studies in HS, no sports, no realistic prospects of a job, no army, no concerts. This is very hard for bochurim to deal with, when they see these things all around them.
At least in the USA, chareidim have some outlets, but in EY, the problem is much worse. However, in the USA, there are really no uniform rules for Chareidim. People pretty much do as they choose.
There really is a need for gedolim to make realistic rules and give guidance on how one is to live his life in the 21st century. Nobody really knows what is permissible for entertainment, and whether anybody should ever have any entertainment at all, or it is all bitul Torah. It seems like one should try to avoid it if one is able to, but if he is depressed or lonely, than it is a mitzvah to get cheered up. How does sports fit in with Yiddishkeit? Is it Hellenistic and anti-Torah, or is it necessary maintenance of a healthy body. If it is proper and necessary, then why do we not see gedolim playing ball?
There is really much confusion on many issues of how to live a Torah life in modern times, and we are not getting any clear guidance.
Tzippi, now, generations later, they are tinokos shenishbu, but at the time they left, they were OTD. However, they had nisyonos that were millions of times harder than what we have today. Poverty, Pogroms, etc. I don’t know how any of the Jews of those times (almost throughout the bitter galus) had the strength to hold on to Yiddishkeit.
One thing I should point out is that now 85% of Jews worldwide are OTD. They became that way in the 17-18-1900’s. This was before the internet and TV. I believe even back then there were problems confronting modernity, and there were even fights over Torah and Mada in Europe in the late 1800’s. Making everything asur, and not accomodating, may have caused part of this.
But a big contribution was the terrible anti-semitism, poverty and discrimination in jobs that Jews faced. Most professions were off limits. I remember reading a heartfelt letter from a child in the 17 or 1800’s telling his parents that he loves them, but simply can’t make a living if he doesn’t convert. He begged them not to cut off contact. This was in a sourcebook from Rebbetzin Bleich’s course on Reform and Counter-Reform at Touro that somebody showed me.
In the 20th century the Young Israel movement has done much to keep kids in the fold, by having the Rabbi speak in English, not Yiddish, and making the davening relevant to American kids of the time. Not every “minhag” is worth preserving if it alienates kids. Today, the “minhag” of wearing black hats and white shirts may be doing the same thing that Yiddish speeches were doing 75 years ago. It is not an esssential part of Yiddishkeit, and may make certain kids feel self-conscious and out of place. We should focus on the heart, and not on superficialities.
QuestionforYou, the message I took from your post was Samhain bevinyan shalem. Is that right?
I have seen people buy a bag or two of candy, put on chair on porch, and put sign saying everybody is free to take one, but please don’t knock.
Wolf, can I try to be as diplomatic as possible? You’re finished.
Seriously, I met my wife at somebody’s Shabbos table, as well.
Lomed Mikol Adam, I must disagree that MO has anything to do with it. Please look at the picture of the soldier on the tank with the lulav and esrog in the Yom Kippur war and tell me he is not totally ruchniyusdig, despite that he is not Chareidi. SJS does have a point that there are problems with the Chinuch in the Chareidi world today. In Israel, they do not even learn any secular studies past 7th or 8th grade.
We have a problem on our hands. How do we create students who are prepared for the outside world, are well-educated, come across respectfully, and yet stay away from bad influences. The Chareidi world’s answer is avoid the secular world completely. Not even math or English. Dress completely differently, so you will stand out and look different than anybody else. The internet is completely off-limits. Even concerts are forbidden, etc.
The MO approach is to be involved with everything, but they have trouble drawing the line between necessary involvement, and mere entertainment. They may go to inappropriate movies, etc. where there is no real need. They use the internet because it has many necessary things on it and much wisdom. All the scientific journals are on-line. Nobody ever photocopies them at libraries any more. However, there are pitfalls with this free exposure.
The American Chareidi world is really a hybrid, since most use internet, and read newspapers and go to concerts. Unfortunately, most of their schools make a joke out of secular studies, or give the boys no time to do HW and absorb. They discourage college, even the frum ones like YU and Touro. They often mock Zionism and the Medinah which in reality is close to all Jews’ hearts, whether or not they want to admit it. No tefila for the Medina or IDF soldiers.
Neither side has an answer to the problem of how to take what is good and necessary from the secular world, and stay away from the bad stuff. This has many kids totally confused. When they hear a Rebbe mocking the State of Israel, they know deep down he is wrong, and that although the founders were secular, they did a superb job for the entire klal.
I believe the answer is to create Chareidi schools with top-notch secular and scientific programs with real research opportunities, not just passing the Regents. Keep the kids so involved in learning and yishuv haolam that they have no time for straying or improper sites. Teach the kids to design radar systems that will protect against scud missiles. Help them cure cancer. Stress chesed. Don’t keep knocking the secular world; show them how to excel in it without falling. Make them top-notch learners who never waste a minute. Show them how each moment can be used prodcutively. Help them keep a log of their minutes. Don’t preach at them; motivate them to set huge goals and accomplish.
I also agree that all peoples were created for a purpose. But I believe the Jewish community is the most close-knit and has the most warmth. We take it for granted. Note that when a Jew goes missing R”L, you will have 2,000 volunteers on short notice scouring the area. When there is one of these internet contests for most votes, the Jewish community will rally around the cause, and be way up there in numbers, even though we are actually so few. This is because we are one big family, and everybody feels that way. The rest of the world would love to learn from us about chesed and warmth, and they don’t realize what they are missing. Our job is to make a kiddush hashem with menschlachkeit. Unfortunately, kids who leave the fold think that the rest of the world has the advantages we have, and also is having great fun. But their lifestyles are not compatible with this warmth. Chesed means I must give up my pleasure for the greater good. One packs Tomchei Shabbos packages instead of indulging himself in his tayvos. One can’t have it both ways. If one becomes self-absorbed, then he is out of the parsha of chesed, and the world becomes colder and more selfish. A Jewish kid wants the warmth and closeness of his friends, even though they may be hanging out in the pool hall, and thinks he can have it both ways in that lifestyle. In reality, he can’t. He won’t be able to concentrate enough even to earn a living for his family. This creates tension, and out goes the simchas hachaim and the fun carefree life he thought he would have.
The Torah was not meant to be a burden, but a guide on how to have the most enjoyable life, which is to achieve goals and raise a nice and warm family. This requires putting aside one’s pleasure, as in staying up with a sick child. The Torah is trying to teach us maturity which means we can’t act on every whim.
I doubt Reb Yaakov ever said that. Don’t believe everything you hear. If anybody has a written or other clear case about something particular that was problematic in the JP whcih Reb Yaakov objected to, I am willing to listen. Some supposed off-the-cuff remark which has no stated reason behind it, is not worth much, and probably never happened. What is the matter, they report on the basketball scores of Jewish high school leagues? They advertise tznius clothing and sheitels for frum women? At least put up a reason.
The Jewish Press was the first frum English paper, I believe, and deserves the credit for getting many interested in Yiddishkeit. They had big gedolim writing halacha columns (like Rav Avraham Steinberg, I believe), and had tales of gedolim which inspire. They had humor sections and were adamantly pro-Israel. They wrote beautiful hespedim on Gedolim a nd gave them the utmost kovod. Arnold Fine’s stories were very cute and entertaining. They had info for shidduchim long before others picked up on the topic. There is nothing wrong in there, and it is pure motzi shem ra when all the frummmies put it down, especially because there is no valid reason for it. There is nothing anti-Torah in there, and the opposite, there are many inspiring parts. I remember My Soul Thirsts by ZA Hilsenrad ZTL which inspired me to spend more years in yeshiva rather than going to college until later.
The Modia, Yated and so on, are anti-Zionist, and often make anti-Zionist statements without giving any reason to explain what is wrong with it. I remember one interview where the interviewee concludes, that now all agree Zionism is no good. What??? Please explain in what way. It is not good we have a Jewish state?
I don’t want to get into an argument about Zionism here, but the point is that it was a foolish statement from an intellectual point of view, since it had no backing and was from out of the blue. At least present your thinking and reasons for your statement.
The second thing, as was mentioned earlier is the fact that no pictures of women are allowed. Why are properly dressed women a problem to see, and can’t they be role models for our daughters. There is no such mesorah. I have looked at many plates of old Haggadas from all periods and locations of klal yisroel’s history and invariably they all have beautiful pictures of Jewish families, men, women, boys and girls all at the seder together. There are numerous other works which show women. This is before the Reform and Haskala. It is from the time of the Rishonim and Acharonim. Look at the Encyclopeida Judaica and you will find tons of full color plates of these old art works. Artscroll had no problem showing the wives of gedolim and Bais Yaakov girls. What kind of business is it that now we have become frummer than all the previous doros, even the Rishonim? I have a book on Shabbos which shows only men at the Shabbos table and getting ready for Shabbos and so on, when in reality, it is the women who do most of these home preparations. It really makes us look like Neanderthals. How can one take them seriously?
Maybe we can remodel Squeak.
There is some truth to the idea that these images ruin a person’s ruchniyus. One requires a geshmak and full immersion in his learning to succeed, and a feeling of Ashreinu mah tov chelkeinu when in front of a gemara. If a person sees these images, they become so addicting that his mind is on when will seder end so I can see the next one. This makes learning completely irritating and boring. One never develops a proper love of the gemara.
Nevertheless, one must realize that as hard as Yiddishkeit is, the world outside is very alluring, but in fact is often a cold, lonely place. People constantly insult and torture each other with cruel comments. Most Jewish kids have happy memories of high school, and very few incidents where they were insulted by classmates. In the world at large, many dread their reunion because of all the torture they experienced in school, both verbally and physically. if these kids would know what they are running away from, and what they are running towards, they would come back in a minute. They are under an illusion. This is the power of addiction.
Even parents have their nisyonos. In the last year, the internet has become far worse than it ever was. I am the last person to say the internet doesn’t have many great uses, and incredible knowledge is available at a click. But kids must be kept as far away as possible. I have the K9 filter, and I am still nervous when they go on. It is very hard being a parent these days.
No one got my line. 🙁
There is an OU job site, and a National Council of Young Israel mailing list, in addition to sites like Jewish Jobs.
For those in the sciences (mainly bio), check Science Careers and Nature Jobs. Also, for chemists, check the ACS site. For physicists check Physics Today Jobs. For electrical engineers check the IEEE site.
For those in Academia, check Chronicle of Higher Education. Many universities have their own careers site, and have many regular jobs, in addition to the academic (research and teaching) positions.
There are is also a Federal Gov’t job site, USAJOBS.
For those with specialized skills, try 6FigureJobs. These are in addition to the standard places like CareerBuilder, Monster, Dice, HotJobs, and Craigslist.
There are a number of others here who start threads with kannaishe posts to bait others.
Any more info on the camp? The rumors are continuing to swirl, including that it was bought by a non-Jew.
So right, you mean the Chicago Rabbinical Council of NY is more reliable?
SJS, If it was a computer science lab, I guess there was no chemistry.
Yaff80, you have it wrong. You are suppposed to keep posting until you have something to say.
Obviously, there are situations which are platonic, such as a family that takes care of the needs of an elderly widow, and members stop by from time to time to check on her or bring her food. One can ask how she is doing and speak for a few minutes so she won’t be lonely.
As with all things, one needs seichel when applying halacha.