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Oomis: Sadly, VERY sadly, we have gotten away from Hashem’s prime directive to us, to the point where the girl who does not work outside the home in order to support her husband is considered to NOT be an aishes chayil. I seriously doubt Hashem ever wanted Jewish children to be raised by nannies and housekeepers, especially in their formative years.
Very well put, especially about girls who don’t work outside the home. I personally want to be home with my children as much as possible, and feel that to be a good mother the worry of food on the table should not be on my shoulders when raising children.
Sacrilege- thank you for sharing that. That was very interesting for me to see. Are all the teachers from the same background, or do they have real variety? (Because otherwise even without direct hashkafah lessons, they are definitely presenting it a certain way.)
I had a teacher who was from Yavne Cleveland once, and while she was very text based she was definitely presenting only her hashkafah as the right one.
I’m sure many girls learn more from living with a family than anything in seminary.
Being a true blue kollel couple is possible without support, if the wife works very hard, or they get support from the gov’t… money does not grow on trees.
Sacrilege: Interesting that you say that. I’m sorry and maybe I’m a little cynical based on my experiences but I really have a very hard time believing that. I know the emphasis in Yavne is academics but that doesn’t mean that they don’t try to make you a “Yavne girl” the way that other seminaries try to churn out a specific “type”. Sometimes girls who are compatible with a hashkafah don’t realize when their school is pushing it; I have friends who will claim that their seminary is extremely open-minded because the girls look at copies of pages of gemara. Do you have any examples where teachers were accepting of various hashkafos?
Ben Torah: Your name should be “Talmid Chacham” as a “ben Torah” in shidduch parlance refers to someone who works. 🙂
Yes, a dowry is not a new phenomenon, but I’m not sure that supporting after marriage is the same as a dowry. A dowry helps the marriage start on a stronger financial footing, while support basically pledges that the couple won’t need to be independent financially.
Shan: It is very important to discuss, since we as a community are trying to serve Hashem. Some of us learn, some of us work, and some of us are trying to decide what we want for ourselves and our children. It’s the latter group who need and want threads like this one, and the input from people who have decided helps us.
Ben Torah: You said that it has been practiced for many hundreds of years and is just another iteration of dowries, which I took to imply that, like dowries, it is a normal situation that we should expect. Was I wrong?
Also, you can’t go cherry picking with Chazal like that. You say “Talmud Torah Kineged Kulam” and then I say “Derech Eretz Kadma Latorah” and then you say “Istakel B’Oraysa Ubara Alma” and we can go on all night throwing quotes at each other and not have a productive discussion.
This thread is discussing the girls’ parents supporting. We all want to support Torah, but is it possible that there’s a problem when boys expect to get supported and it’s not sustainable?
MR – You ignored the rest of my post where I wrote about a healthy emotional relationship. There is no such thing as “stam shmoozing”. When you say, “Hi How are you how was your day”, this is not stam shmoozing. It’s the way your friend/ spouse/ anyone you will ever know in your life, knows that they are important to you.
It is true that supporting Torah is a major accomplishment and zechus, and we all want to be in that position. However, it cannot be the “minhag” that EVERYONE follows, because we are not Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai and carob trees don’t spring up for me when I’m hungry, and I will also confess that water does not miraculously rise in my cup. If it does for you, good, but this is not the way of the world and we have to face it.
In a normal world, most people need to do hishtadlus. It is not sustainable to expect one generation to do hishtadlus, the next to be supported in learning, and the next… what does the next generation do with no one to support them?
As for the merit – I’m just wondering if this could be why the mishna in Pirkei Avos about work is followed by mentioning that we cannot compare the greatness of different mitzvos:
???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?????’? ?????? ?? ?? ????. ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????? – ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????
You’re right that if it’s one’s minhag there’s nothing wrong. However supporting the boy is not a minhag, at best it’s minhag hamakom. For generations, the boy had to have a way to bring food to the table and did not expect support.
My point about polygamy was just to point out that not everything that was always done, continues to be done. Besides for which it expired. But yes, it is besides your point about supporting the boy being akin to dowries.
Yep. So was polygamy. A little less recently.
Ben Torah: Actually not. Yaakov worked for Rachel. Rabbeinu Yonah on Parshas Vayerah speaks about how terrible the practice of the girls’ family paying dowries is to society, that the man doesn’t appreciate something he hasn’t worked for.
Not to allow Arabs to park in Israel.
More seriously, Rashi says this means one of three things.
1. Don’t praise needlessly
2. Don’t allow them to take land in Israel.
3. Don’t marry them.
Obviously a lot more has been written on the topic.
MR- Actually in order to have a healthy emotional relationship the husband NEEDS to talk with his wife. That’s the whole purpose of Shana Rishona – to “hang out” together as you put it. It’s because a healthy relationship is based on communication and trust, and talking is the way we build communication. Of course you can “stam talk” too much but you need to just “stam talk” in order to have a healthy marriage.
it’s like small talk for politeness. It’s a way of building a relationship. No one wants to be viewed as a business partner in building a home. You want to be cared about, and that means that things that seem unimportant to the world, if they are important to the wife, they should be important to the husband. And vice versa.
Oh SMS – I’m so sorry!!!
EVERYONE who is not sephardi should go to Sephardic Chachamim and Rabbanits – they give the most beautiful, warm and flowing brachos you will ever get anywhere.
tzippi -BY intensive, the monsey one, and I think the lakewood one. Yavneh doesn’t have a dorm, you live in people’s houses, I’m not sure of the exact arrangement. There are also Chabad seminaries whose names I don’t know, both for people from frum backgrounds and not, obviously they are not in the same category as the ones YWN readers are interested in but they all have supervised dorms.
I realized I skipped:
Maalot Baltimore: Supposed to be great all around, good teachers, not as against college as the ones in Brooklyn generally are, a little more open minded.
Ateres Naava in Brooklyn by R’ Wallerstien is half – day, I have the impression that many different types of girls go there, generally girls who want to grow. Not strictly for girls coming from 12th grade. I think it’s also not as against college, but have to check with someone who’s attended.
Get Mishpacha magazine – they cover many different Orthodox groups, and it’s their stated mission.
Also, expose your kids to rabbonim not affiliated with your group. Ie if you’re chabad, to litvish. If you’re yeshivish, to chassidish. If you’re chassidish, to litvish, and make it clear that there are many different ways to serve Hashem.
You never know if it will be your child who will benefit, who will need to know that there are different ways of serving Hashem and they can be a good Jew even if they are not exactly like you.
WIY: Agreed.
And, we are missing persistence. Everything has to be on a silver platter, no effort necessary.
The people I know from there are incredibly nice. And they have a kollel.
I went to seminary, and frankly it wasn’t good for me, and I didn’t go to EY either. However I do see why for many girls it can be very positive. Many girls come out of the BY system without a real sense of direction in life and this gives them an extra year to develop in a kadosh environment.
On the other hand, there is a big gap where a seminary for girls in America should be and hopefully someone will step up to fill it. We need a seminary that is academically rigorous so that girls who want to learn will actually learn. We also need a seminary that is practical and has baking, sewing, home ec classes to help girls who want to be prepared better for marriage. There is room for at least two more seminaries in Brooklyn alone.Many girls do not go to sem in the US because none of the choices work for them.
List of Seminaries I Know About:
Machon sem in Brooklyn is good for girls who are going to college and want to do sem at the same time.
BY intensive is good for girls who do not plan on going to college and want the best Israel experience America can offer.
BY half day is good for girls who want to have a job and learn, some classes are better than others.
There’s a seminary in Monsey a friend of mine attended – not very academic, but very good for an all around type of girl
There’s one in Lakewood that’s supposed to be good but very yeshivish.
Belz sem in BP is very chassidish. I don’t know anyone who went there but heard it is not very academic.
Yavneh – I know a girl who went and was happy with it. However there are problems, I’m not sure what they are.
All the seminaries suffer from a certain hashkafic inflexibility. They seem to feel that they are supposed to force every girl into the same derech of serving Hashem, whatever theirs is – becoming a teacher, mother, etc. They do not take advantage of America’s rabbonim and do not teach achdus with other types of yidden, except maybe in theory.
We can do better.
An organization that provides psychotherapy to people who can’t afford it.
Oomis and HaQer – exactly.
Get the older ones to make a day camp for the younger, and pay them for it. (Even only $5)
OK Thanks.
I just like to hear people’s ideas, but don’t worry I ask in real life too.
Do you have any advice for girls?
A non frum person saying to me: “You’re not used to people being nasty because all religious girls are nice.”
(It’s somewhat true – in BY there is much less backstabbing than in the outside world! BH for shmiras Halashon!)
People who are always kind to others no matter what.
Everything is important.
Someone who is really tzanua, though, will also have good middos since she will not brag and try to get attention, and will be humble. It says “v’es tznuim chachma” in mishlei, she will be wise and “v’hatzneia leches im Elokecha” in Micha, she will also be a yarei shamayim. However you cannot tell that all from clothes, there are modest people who do not dress appropriately!
Similarly, someone who is really kind, will not want to cause others to sin and will dress appropriately. However we all know people who have a heart of gold and struggle in this area.
You need to look at the whole person. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, you need to know your own and what you need in order to have a successful marriage.
Personally I think the most important midda in a marriage partner is commitment and the determination to make it work, and a certain measure of selflessness.
There’s a great book that may not be appropriate for all girls, but is good if you’re in the outside world and struggling with modesty. This book helped me more than all the other tznius books I read (except Oz Vhadar Lvusha which I liked for its hashkafic strength)
It’s called “Doesn’t Anyone Blush Anymore?” by Manis Friedman, and it’s very good for being able to appreciate and explain tznius to people who are not from a frum background.
Disclaimer: I’m from BY and I love tznius.
Re not being aware of boys: Until I started dating I had no idea that clothes had any effect on boys.I don’t have older brothers and in BY no one even mentioned Shomer Negiah.
I knew it was theoretically true that the reason we kept tznius, was so that boys shouldn’t do aveiros, but practically speaking this meant nothing to me. So the temptation came as a shock.
Fortunately I understood it and was able to deal with it. But I wish we were taught to value ourselves more. I now work in a non-orthodox environment and every day I understand tznius more and more. I think that our boys respect their wives more, and are more likely to commit to marriage, so we are not taken advantage of, and that our innocence and focus on the spiritual aspect of marriage is a beautiful thing. If only all my friends appreciated what we have.
What’s wrong with supporting our heimishe stores in Boro Park? I like to dress classy and in style and have never had any problem shopping in Brooklyn. Yes it costs a little more. So buy fewer clothes.
Does s/he take vitamins? (Someone told me that they ask that, because then they ask if s/he takes a lot of vitamins – they want to know if the person is on any medications.)
I don’t believe the story with the bee.
Yes, teach the boys good middos and committment…
What is this, some kind of diet?
Sushi? (fresh tuna)
apple sauce
latkes
potato kugel
What plaid said is exactly right.
one of my friend’s mothers works in a hospital. The boy brought her to a lounge near the hospital but wasn’t comfortable with the environment there, so she suggested they go to the hospital meeting room. It so happens her mother had to go there for another reason and was totally shocked to see her daughter on a date, as they were to see her!!
if the person starts talking about bad things they are doing or things going on at home can i tell them if i think what they are doing is wrong or assur. or should i just be quiet and let them vent.
No, you cannot tell them your opinion of what they are doing, but you can say something like “I’m not comfortable with your sharing this with me.” Make it about you, not about them.
Are they close to you, or not?
If they are close to you, provide emotional support.
If they are not close to you, find out if there is something they need- a summer job, etc. Hire them, or mentor them, or something.
Also don’t be too pushy, but show you care. Ask them how they’re doing, don’t just ignore them, act to them as if they are just normal kids (which they are)
Don’t ever ever ever lecture or try to teach them something- wait until they ask. It could take months but eventually they will.